As JWs you believe that In the resurrection, those who died faithful to God are included in the ‘other sheep’ and will receive the “resurrection of the righteous” (“just” KJV) mentioned in Acts 24:15. (The Watchtower 2/15/95 p. 11 par. 12) Those of the ‘other sheep’ who are alive today, some of whom survive through Armageddon without needing a resurrection, are referred to as the ‘great crowd’. (The Watchtower 4/15/95 p. 31 Questions From Readers). These views are based around the following text.
“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Joh 10:16 NWT)
The Bible speaks of the church as Jehovah’s flock (Acts 20:29; 1 Pet 5:2). Up until the conversion of Cornelius, the Gospel invitation had NOT been made available to the gentiles. But that changed suddenly about AD 36. Of the conversion of Cornelius’ household, we read in Acts 10:45, “And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.” NWT.
The gentile Christians could not be invited until after the 70 weeks (Dan 9:24) for Israel were completed (AD 36). Of that final week [a day = a year], we read “And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week” Dan 9:27 NWT). That covenant was Jehovah’s 70 weeks agreement with Israel. It was in the last half of the 70th week, three and a half years after the cross, that the great work was done amongst the Jews.
Applying the “other sheep” to the new gentile converts is the evident meaning and it would take strong additional scriptural evidence to convince the honest student otherwise. There is no direct indication in the Bible that these “other sheep” are referring only to the “Great Crowd” (true Christians who will not be part of the Little Flock.” Another reasonable application would be to apply this to the billions of mankind that will be awakened from the dead in Paradise earth and there have an opportunity to follow Jehovah in obedience forever. Without further compelling evidence, applying the “Other Sheep” to the “Great Crowd” is building a doctrine from a scripture taken out of context. This reminds us of the Catholic Church misapplication of Matt 16:18 which says, “You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha’des will not overpower it.” (NWT) Based on an unsupportable misapplication of this text, the Catholic Church believes that the papacy represents an “unbroken” line of apostolic succession from Peter to the present day.
In the above article “Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16?”, i disagree with the conclusion stated in the final paragraph:
“Applying the “other sheep” to the new gentile converts is the evident meaning…”
A convert is someone who has heard and believes. But the verses says this:
(John 10:16) “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
You don’t have to “bring in” a convert, they are already in.
“They will listen to my voice” is describing what will happen in the future. But a convert has already listened to his voice (message).
“They will become one flock”. A convert is already part of his flock and in his fold.
I go into a lot more detail in my article “Other Sheep”, available at
http://da.getmyip.com/PDF/Ramblings
Verse 16 is a culmination of the first 15 verses of John Chapter 10.
The parable of the sower also helps with identifying who the other sheep are.
:^)
Dave
Dave – Thanks for honestly sharing your personal conclusion. The link does not take me to an article, so you are welcome to try again to leave the correct link. We would be happy to hear your explanation of who the “other sheep” are right here on this site.
Clarification: The “other sheep” were not gentile converts at the time Jesus spoke, but would later become converts and part of the greater sheep fold.
Peter – The article is in the list at that address. There are 3 formats to choose from: doc, pdf, and epub.
The article is 10 pages long and over 5,000 words. Wouldn’t that be too large to post here? It also has a picture which i don’t think can be posted here.
“Clarification: The “other sheep” were not gentile converts at the time Jesus spoke, but would later become converts and part of the greater sheep fold.”
Now that i agree with.
:^)
Dave
Hi Dave – Thanks for the clarification on the link. That should help others as well.
On this site we encourage direct two way conversation. It is okay to post a quote of a paragraph or two if you want to give a flavor of your article to encourage others to check it out.
Please see the discussion linked above as it addresses many of your thoughts and scriptures. P K
Thanks.Text downloaded successfully. Bill. WHO WILL SURVIVE ARMAGEDDON?
(We will) “contemplate the fate of billions” ( is this the Governing Body ? )
The “Little Season” confused me, until I finally found it in Rev 20: 3 “a little while” NWT
I did however find an error in my thinking: “until the 1,000 years were ended”. “After this” he must be released for a “little while”.
Revelation 20:7 NWT
Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, “to gather them together for the war.” The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. ( Is it possible this is the last war of Armageddon? Now God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.) (only sheep left and perhaps a few goats too! )
Question: are people thinking the great tribulation is a war rather than a rescue “ unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved;“
Thank you Peter K. You have rekindled my desire to search again! Next subject the “Second Death”.
Hi Bill,
In the Armageddon article, “we contemplate the fate of billions” simply means that we together (the article author and reader) will consider what the Bible teaches about the fate of billions of mankind, particularly those who die in Armageddon.
Regarding Revelation 20:7-9, you asked, “Is it possible this is the last war of Armageddon?” Keep in mind that the word “Armageddon” is only found in Rev 16:12.
Revelation 16 (NKJV) “12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.”
It seems that Armageddon leads into the 7th plague and that this is the end of it (Armageddon). So in my view, Armageddon itself would not extend far into the 1,000 years or even beyond that into the Little Season after the 1,000 years (Rev 20). Perhaps too much is made of Armageddon so that we may wrongly try to connect other scriptures that refer to events before or after Armageddon. This gets pretty deep, but I will leave it at that for now.
You asked, “are people thinking the great tribulation is a war rather than a rescue ‘unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved?'”
We find expressions in the Bible like “the Great Time of Trouble (Daniel 12) and “Great Tribulation” (Matt 24) and even the heavens and earth on fire (2 Pet 3) and many more scriptures referring to trouble. In each case, I think it is best to look at each specific scripture to work on understanding its meaning. Sometimes two different Bible verses can sound similar, like they are talking about the same think, but though they may be related, they may not be exactly the same. Consider the verse below.
1 Thess 5:3 (ESV) “While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”
Destruction is described like labor pains – in waves. Between a woman’s labor pains in giving birth there are periods of rest. Over time the labor pains become more frequent and severe. So I think that the Great Time of Trouble of Daniel 12 occurs over a long period of time in this manner and perhaps we can describe the end as Armageddon. Just food for thought.
Mankind is rescued out of all this trouble. The ultimate end is setting up the eternal paradise kingdom of peace. However mankind must first suffer through the experiences of evil to appreciate and ask for God’s rulership, guidance and protection.
I look forward to hearing your comments and/or questions regarding the “second death.” Note: This topic should not be used to scare people as for God, this eternal destruction is a last resort after God makes every attempt to reform the wicked, particularly during the thousand years and little season that follows.
Currently working on “difference’s” and looking forward to it! Bill.
“Peter K. (admin)
May 23, 2021 at 5:46 am · Reply
Searching, Thanks for your question. Here are just some of the differences.”
Sorry I neglected to add the reason for their rebellion ! Bill
Psalm 2:1,2, 3
Why are the nations agitated. And the peoples muttering an empty thing The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one. 3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!”
Psalm 2: 10,11,12
So now, you kings, show insight; Accept correction, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Honor the son, or God will become indignant And you will perish from the way, For His anger flares up quickly. Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.
Acts 4: 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’
Thanks Bill for sharing your thoughts. I have been out of town, but will have time to respond in the next couple of days.
Attention Peter K admin.
What is to happen to the people of the nations, immediately after the tribulation is cut short, when Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goats? Are the goats to be destroyed?
JW: Question from Readers. (in reference to Ezekiel 9:2)
“In the modern-day fulfilment, the six men with smashing weapons represent Jesus’ heavenly armies with Jesus himself at the head”. Scriptural quote from this Watchtower:
“They will soon destroy the nations and all wickedness.” WT
“Go through the city after him and strike. Do not let your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. 6 Old man, young man, virgin, little child, and women you should kill off completely”.
Do the scriptures agree and support the use of (Ezekiel 9:2) in this way ?
Romans 2:14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.
16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.
Rev 7:9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.
Rev 22:2 On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 20:24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the “kings of the earth” will bring their glory into it.
Isa 2:2 In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it “all the nations” will stream.
Matt 25:32 “All the nations” will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats
Haggai 2:7 “‘And I will shake “all the nations”, and the precious things of “all the nations will come in”; and I will fill this house with glory,’ says Jehovah of armies.
Zechariah 8: This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”
Rev15:4 Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, for you alone are loyal? For “all the nations will come” and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been revealed.”
Isa 11: 10 In that day the root of Jesʹse will stand up as a signal for the peoples. To him “the nations will turn for guidance”, And his resting-place will become glorious.
*Gal 3: 8 Now the scripture, foreseeing that God would declare people of the nations righteous through faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed”
Ezk 36:23 ‘I will certainly sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you profaned among them; and “the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah”,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes.
Ezk 39:7 ……….and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.
*Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to Jehovah. All the families of the nations will bow down before you.
Isa 62:2 “The nations will see your righteousness, O woman, “And all kings your glory”. And you will be called by a new name, Which Jehovah’s own mouth will designate.
*Isa 60:12 For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly devastated.
*Jer 16:19 O Jehovah,…………, “To you the nations will come from the ends of the earth”, And they will say: “Our forefathers inherited utter falsehood, Futility and useless things of no benefit.
Jer:17:17 At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations will be brought together to the name of Jehovah at Jerusalem, and they will no longer stubbornly follow their own wicked heart.
*Zeph 2:11 Jehovah will be awe-inspiring against them; For he will bring to nothing all the gods of the earth, And all the islands of the nations will bow down to him, Each one from its place.
Ezk 39:21 “‘I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the judgment that I have executed and the power that I have demonstrated among them.
*Psalm 72:11 All the kings will bow down before him, And all the nations will serve him. 12” For he will rescue the poor who cry for help, Also the lowly one and whoever has no helper”.
Psalm 102:15 The nations will fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth your glory.
Isa 2:4 He will render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.
Are these scriptures a contradiction to what JW’s teach?
So what about the Devil and Satan
Rev 20: 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.
Micah 4:3 or. Isa 2:4 Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.
He will render judgment among many peoples. And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.
This “scripture” was also gifted to the United Nations by the USSR on December 4th, 1959.
(See the statue)
Could there be any offenders during that time of 1000 years?
Isa 65:20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And “the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
Revelation 20:2,3-7 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.
7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them.
Personally! I’m inclined to think this is Armageddon, also the removing all wickedness forever!!
(Only sheep left)
Hi Bill – Clearly you are a deep student of scripture and you have brought in so many scriptures to consider that I think a book could be written to attempt to explain and harmonize all the scriptures.
Many of the scriptures and points you brought up are discussed here at this link: ARE PEOPLE ETERNALLY JUDGED FOR THINGS DONE IN THIS LIFE (beyondwatchtower.com)
Especially note the section on the survivors of Armageddon beginning on page 19. Clearly many people, even the unrighteous and nations will survive Armageddon.
In my personal opinion, a mistake many people make in reading prophecy is that they imagine that the events described will play out in a matter of days or weeks, when actually the opposite is true. A briefly described prophecy may take decades or hundreds of years to play out. An example would be the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre in Ezekiel 26:1-14. The fulfillment of this prophecy played out over many centuries. In the end Tyre would be destroyed down to the bare rock and never rebuilt. The final destruction took place in AD 1291, almost 2,000 years after Ezekiel was written.
The 1,000 years of the reign of Christ and binding of Satan are misunderstood that when the 1,000 years begins that Satan is fully bound at the outset and that this is after Armageddon. This is another deep study for another time, but I will just add that the promise below is not for during the 1,000 years, but rather after the 1,000 years and Little Season of the loosing of Satan.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, neither crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the old things are gone.
Please see the discussion linked above as it addresses many of your thoughts and scriptures. Thanks.