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Heavenly or Earthly Call? – 144,000, Great Crowd & Other Sheep – Listen to June 5 Conference Call recording

To listen to the recording, click above or  To listen, click here and look for the June 5, 2011 program.  — It is described at the link as “Who are the “Little Flock”, the “Great Crowd” and the “Other Sheep”?

Does the Bible teach that you should be pursuing a earthly hope today, to be a part of the Great Crowd on earth?  Or does it teach that the Christian should be pursuing a heavenly hope, to be a part of the bride of Christ?   Former JW and Bible Student elder David Stein interviewed a panel of Bible students to investigate and discuss this topic.  They will answer the questions– What does the Bible teach about the Little Flock, the Great Crowd, the Other Sheep and the Heavenly Call?  Callers participated with your own questions and/or comments.

59 comments to Heavenly or Earthly Call? – 144,000, Great Crowd & Other Sheep – Listen to June 5 Conference Call recording

  • There is no such thing as a “Heavenly” calling. Those of the First Resurrection (kings with Christ for the 1000 years) and those of the Second Resurrection (The Great Crowd) will BOTH be on earth.

    Those who will be kings with Christ for the 1000 years will be literally here on earth as Christs “visible” representatives. Christ himself, who remains in heaven, will be king over them. We see this at Revelation 1:5 and Revelation 5:10.

    In fact, all references to “Kings of the Earth” in the Book of Revelation is to them, not to the existing political kingdoms which will have all been destroyed when Christ begins to rule. These “Kings” will be misled by Satan when he ascends out of the Abyss and they will give the authority Christ gave them as kings to the Wild Beast for a time span in order to wield influence over those Christ entrusted them with: The Great Crowd. They will use their authority to influence the Great Crowd to support (worship) the Wild Beast and it’s image. They will become Satan’s unwitting agents. (Rev 17:12-13)

    It is in error that people are being told that there is a heavenly calling. The “other sheep” are simply persons of the Second Resurrection (The Great Crowd) who, after Christs 1000 year kingdom ends, could be subjects to the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. Those of the little flock are not subject to the Lake of Fire as it has no authority over them.

    The “changing” that this little flock will experience is not a “changing” as to entering into heaven, but a “changing” to put on immorality. They will remain on earth. Yes, they “will” be with Christ in the sense that he will be their king.

    Jesus teaches that after his “definite” kingdom of 1000 years ends (and after the Wild Beast kingdom that follows his is destroyed), God’s “indefinite” Kingdom comes down to the earth. In other words, God’s Kingdom will envelope the earth forever.

    If God’s Kingdom “comes down” why does anyone think they are “going up” to it as in some “heavenly calling?”

    The Words of Jesus were true over 2000 years ago and they are true today. He has stated that no man has ever nor will go to heaven.

    “Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13)

    No person “born” a man will EVER go to heaven. No human will be changed to go to heaven. Only those who “come from” heaven can go up into it. No “human” came from heaven.

    If any of you say Jesus came from heaven, that would be incorrect. The Son of God came from heaven. The person known as Jesus came from a flesh and blood mother; from the earth. No man came down from heaven. That is what Jesus is telling us at John 3:13.

    So this heavenly calling stuff as if “going up to heaven” is a “false teaching.”

    The heavenly calling reference at Hebrews 3:1 is not teaching that humans will go to a literal heaven. No! It is teaching a “higher” or “heavenly” calling to those especially chosen to be kings and priest with Christ (who will rule from heaven) within his 1000 year kingdom on earth.

    It is interesting how JWs are the first to tag something as a false teaching but do not see that they engage in it like all of the others do. Yet, they convince themselves that it is the truth.

    • Lincoln

      This is very long time ago and I do not know if you have been discussed?

      But allow me to go further into this and also to Friends of Jehovah`s Witnesses.

      My comment:

      No, this is not ”what Jesus is (was) telling us at John 3:13”.

      It is true, that no ”man” has came down from heaven, since it was not ”flesh and bone” that ”came down from heaven”.

      It is also true, that Jesus (in flesh and blod /bone) did not come down from heaven in physical appearance.

      But is not true, that ”No person “born” a man will EVER go to heaven. No human will be changed to go to heaven” as your point out”. quote end;

      “It is true (to some extent) that ”the son of God, came down from heaven” quote end; if we consider this:

      John 1:1 – 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

      Study Bible.

      The Supremacy of Christ.

      …18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have pre-eminence.

      19 For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,

      20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.…
      Berean Study Bible.
      quote end.

      1.Corintians 15: ( I give a part of it) “But let me tell you something wonderful, a mystery I’ll probably never fully understand.

      We’re not all going to die—but we are all going to be changed.

      You hear a blast to end all blasts from a trumpet, and in the time that you look up and blink your eyes—it’s over.

      On signal from that trumpet from heaven, the dead will be up and out of their graves, beyond the reach of death, never to die again.

      At the same moment and in the same way, we’ll all be changed.

      In the resurrection scheme of things, this has to happen: everything perishable taken off the shelves and replaced by the imperishable, this mortal replaced by the immortal”.
      quote end.

      So, “Heaven is our home”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXDKmvS344E

      Let me introduce this beautiful sister from SA. Most famous Opera star, but in the Church of Jesus Christ just a woman.

      If you care, here she is in all her beauty:


  • ken

    After reading all of chapter three of 1st corinthians it seems to me Paul is talking about disciple making, I say this because verses 4-9 compare disciple making as a joint effort,using the analogy of planting and watering,then in verses 10-15 he uses another anology of a building foundation and the actual building itself. The point is if one makes a disciple on any other foundation but Jesus Christ it’ll be weak and can easily be destroyed but the one who made the effort to make the disciple will still be saved eventhough the disciple he tried to make will not.

  • Richard

    Hello Brother Peter,
    Thank you for your explanation about others, who are true Believers and not Bible Students,but will be saved. It really bothered me when studying with the JWs and attending their meetings that they taught that ALL outside of their organization would perish.What audacity and pride!
    Please explain,or direct me to some writings,as to what Consecration is and how does one become,or aspire to become,Consecrated.
    Thank you,

  • humbleman

    Hi pete sent you a email please let me know if you dont recive anything 🙂

  • humbleman

    Hi Peter thank you for sharing your thoughts they are very interesting. do you have a Email address i can contact you on. i would like to discuss this further. i also have other questions. thanks for your time humbleman 🙂

  • humbleman

    Hi Pete thanks for the info. i have read the info but it doesn’t answer the question I’m looking for. are you saying the great crowd that comes out of the great tribulation are some from the first century down to our day that didnt make the 144000. if so i would find that hard to grasp since nobody from the first century is alive when the great tribulation starts. but back to my earlier question about were do the great crowd come from. i was meaning about today as there aren’t enough bible students to make up a great crowd today. do you believe some will come from other religions? thanks for your time

    • Peter K. (admin)

      humbleman – I will share with you what I think. Yes, I think there is spirit begettal (those baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit) outside of the Bible Students. I believe that there have likely been millions of spirit begotten throught the Gospel Age, since the first century. I think it is only a small percent of this total that are “faithful unto death” and receive the “crown of life” (Rev 2:10; 1 Pet 1:4) to be part of the 144,000 (Rev 14:1). I think that the “Great Tribulation” has a double application. 1) During the Gospel Age, since the first century, the Great Crowd has had to experience a personal tribulation in their lives to clean the spots off their robes. In 1 Cor 3:15 they are said to be “saved by fire” (hard experiences (tribulation) to burn away the stubble). Also in Ez 44 we are told that the Levites (picturing the Great Crowd) “shall bear their error” (vs 12) and that ” they must bear their humiliation and their detestable things that they did” (vs 13). This is a personal tribulation experience for each Great Crowd member. Heb 12:7-11 says, “whom a father loves, he disciplines.” 2) There is also a final Tribulation experience that the remaning spirit begotten will experience after the bride is gone and the door has been shut (Matt 25:10). I beleive that Rev 7:14 covers both applications.

  • humbleman

    Hi peter where do the bible students believe the great crowd will come from?

  • Jacqueline

    I really enjoyed this segment about the 144,000 and the great crowd. It was interesting to learn that the calling couldn’t be closed because of events that should start happening afterwards. I think it would be worth it for those that missed it to listen to it in it’s entirety. Small points and questions were addressed.
    Thanks so much Br.David and yout guests that were interviewed.

  • humbleman

    i would join you guys because i would love to discuss this. but i don’t want anything to do with the 6 screens of the watchtower. and to be honest with you. when witnesses see you associated with them its going to put them off. as there more concerned with knocking down a persons faith than building it up. if this was discussed on one of your webcasts it would be more appealing.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Humbleman – Thanks for your feedback. We are hoping to encourage a more positive and friendly scripture discussion approach with that audience. Your concerns are well taken and under consideration.

  • humbleman

    Hi i do have a question for bible students. if the great crowd are a secondary group to the bride of Christ in heaven how come they don’t appear until the time of the end rev 7 v 14 says they come out of the great tribulation. how do those in the first century that didnt make the bride as fit into this group. thanks humbleman

    • Peter K. (admin)

      humbleman – You can find a lot of your answers on the Great Crowd by clicking here to check out these articles.

      A quick answer to your question is that the Great Crowd is referred to throughout the New Testament, but described in different ways. It’s the same way with the Anointed. They are also called wise virgins (Matt 25:1,2), the 144,000 (Rev 14:1), the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:22-33), the Little Flock (Luke 12:32), etc. So also, the Great Crowd is described in different ways. In 1 Cor 3:10-15, two classes build their foundation in Christ, the Anointed who are rewarded and the others who are saved, but not rewarded. Also, remember 1 Cor 9:24 says, “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.” NASV. The faithful Anointed receive the reward to be the bride of Christ, however, those who do not win the prize are the same as the Great crowd. You will find much more on this in the articles and on the upcoming June 5 Conference Call. Please join us.

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