Click here for the new and updated article: Who is Michael the Archangel 2014_08_27
Below is the older version of the article which is less complete.
Is Michael the Archangel Jesus or is Michael just a mighty angel? Does the Bible answer this question?
We believe that a careful examination of scriptures will provide compelling evidence that Michael the Archangel is Jesus. Yet since Hebrews 1:4-14 shows that Jesus is greater than the angels, how can Jesus possibly be an angel?
The honest and sincere student of scripture will want to carefully examine the evidence.
WHAT DOES THE NAME “MICHAEL” MEAN?
The word “Michael” in Daniel 12:1 comes from Strong’s 4317 meaning, “who is like God.” Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon also agrees with this definition.
Who else is like God but Jesus Himself?
CAN JESUS BE CALLED AN ANGEL?
The word “angel” itself, Strong’s #32 is defined as, “a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication, a pastor.”
On occasion, the Greek and Hebrew words for angel simply have the meaning of messenger and do not refer to angels. Here are examples where the Greek and Hebrew do not refer to angels:
Matt 11:10 (NKJV ) “For this is he of whom it is written: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’” [Here Jesus is speaking of John]
Luke 7:24 (NKJV) “When the messengers of John had departed, He (Jesus) began to speak to the multitudes concerning John:”
James 2:25 (NKJV ) “Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”
Gen 32:3 (KJV) “And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother”
Many say Jesus cannot be Michael because Jesus is not an angel. The scriptures quoted above prove that the Greek and Hebrew words for angel broadly mean “messenger” and can apply to others besides angels. Jesus is God’s ultimate and supreme messenger. That is why he is called the “Logos” or the Word of God, i.e. God’s spokesperson or messenger.
Jesus is called an “angel” or “messenger in Malachi 3:1 (NKJV) where we read, “Behold, I send My messenger (John the Baptist Matt 11:10-11), And he will prepare the way before Me (Yawheh). And the Lord (Jesus), whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple (“Which Temple ye are.” 1 Cor 3:17), Even the Messenger (Jesus) of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.
In Revelation 20:1, 2 we have a great angel coming down from heaven with a chain in his hand to bind Satan. This great angel is generally accepted to be Jesus who is the one responsible for binding Satan.
Jesus is the “seed of the woman” who crushes the serpent’s head. Hebrews 2:14 (RVIC) says, “… that through death he might bring to nought the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;” Is there an angel powerful enough to bind Satan? Of course not.
Yes, it is Jesus who binds Satan. Gen 3:15 shows that the seed (Jesus) crushes Satan’s head. More broadly, it is The Christ, Head and Body who binds Satan (Rom 16:20). Jesus death’ on the Cross guaranteed Him the authority to destroy Satan (Hebrews 2:14).
IS JESUS THE ARCHANGEL?
We find the word archangel in 1 Thes 4:16 and Jude 9. It is from Strong’s 743 meaning “a chief angel,” Let’s break the word up into its two parts. “Arch” is Strong’s 757 meaning, “to be first (in political rank or power):– reign (rule) over” The other part, “angel” is from Strong’s 32, meaning, “a messenger, especially an angel.”
So how does comparing 1 Thess 4:16 and Jude 9 help us to identify who Michael is? Well we know that Jesus descends from heaven with the “voice of Archangel” and that Michael is the “Archangel.” So therefore, Michael must be Jesus. After all, I cannot have your voice, even if I can use your trumpet. So Jesus must be using his own voice, yes the voice of the archangel (meaning chief messenger – the Word of God – the Logos).
HOW DOES THE WORD “PRINCE” HELP US IDENTIFY WHO MICHAEL IS?
In Daniel 12:1 (NKJV), Michael is described as, “the great prince (Strong’s 8269)who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare Isaiah 9:6 which calls Jesus the “prince of peace” (Strong’s 8269)
Jesus is also called the “prince” in the New Testament
Acts 3:15: “prince of life”
Acts 5:11: “prince and Savior”
Remember how in Daniel 12:1, Michael is described as, “the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare with Matthew 2:6:
Matt 2:6: “out of thee [Bethlehem] shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.” (Micah 5:2 Governor/Ruler = Strongs 4910-6.)
In both cases Michael/Jesus is ruler over Israel. Does Israel have two spiritual rulers – Michael and Jesus? Of course not. Jesus is Michael.
In contrast, in Eph 2:2 Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”
IS MICHAEL THE CHIEF PRINCE OR ONE OF MANY EQUAL PRINCES?
The argument that Michael is “one [of many] of the Chief Princes” in Daniel 10:13 is not correct.
Notice the more accurate rendering in Young’s Literal Translation –
Daniel 10:13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;”
Albert Barnes’ Commentary: “the first.” That is, the first in rank of the “princes,” or the angels. In other words, Michael, the archangel.””
John Gill’s Commentary: “…is no other than Christ the Son of God… who is “one,” or “the first of the chief Princes””
The word “first of,” sometimes translated “one of” is Strongs 259 meaning, “a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:” This word is translated “first” four (4) times in the book of Daniel, i.e. Dan 11:1 which says, “…in the first year of Darius the Mede…” KJV. So we see that Daniel 10:13 is not indicating that there are several chief heads or princes.
The word translated “heads” or more often “princes” is Strongs 8269, the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 12:1 associated with Michael the Archangel who is the great prince.
The word “chief” as in “chief princes” is from Strongs 7223 and it means “first, in place, time or rank.”
So Michael is the first or number one prince. In other words, Michael is Jesus.
Dan 12:1 calls him the “GREAT prince” and Dan 10:21 calls him “Michael your prince.” Over Israel, God would have appointed His highest ranking prince. Right? Is there a prince that ranks higher than Jesus? Another spirit being would not have been given more responsibility and authority than Jesus.
JESUS APPEARED TO MOSES?
Paul tells us about Jesus in Hebrews 3:3 that He, “…was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.” So Jesus is the one that built Moses’ house (the nation of Israel under the Law Covenant). As the builder of the house, Jesus was the main messenger appearing to Moses at the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinia (Gal 3:19; Acts 7:53) as the Word or representative of Jehovah.
The point is that during the Jewish age, Jesus was the chief prince/messenger/angel speaking to Moses on behalf of Jehovah/ Yahweh, at the burning bush and on Mount Sinai. If Michael is the chief prince of Israel, Michael must be Jesus, the chief prince. Otherwise, would you conclude that Michael is higher ranking than Jesus? If Michael was the chief prince and Jesus was not, than how is Jesus superior to Michael? Therefore they must both be the same person.
We find more evidence of Jesus activity with ancient Israel here: Jude 5 (ESV) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
SIGNS OF DANIEL 12 ALREADY FULFILLED!
Daniel 11 brings us up to the time of the end and Daniel 12 brings us 5 signs of the time of the end:
1) Increase in knowledge (i.e. technology, mobile phones, Internet, etc.)
2) Increase in travel (cars, planes, space travel)
3) “children of your people delivered” (Israel a nation)
4) Great time of trouble (world wars, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, Mao, Hitler, Stalin, etc. murder over 100 million non-combatants last century)
5) Book of Daniel unsealed and explained (If not Volume 3, “Thy Kingdom Come,” then how is that fulfilled?)
So if this does not prove that we have been in the time of the end and that Jesus (pictured here as Michael) has returned, then what does this all mean?
Once prophecy is fulfilled, it’s meaning becomes more evident. For example, in Jesus day, people looking at Daniel 9 (70 weeks) thought that Messiah would defeat the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom at that time. Once history played out, the purpose of the Messiah became clear to Jesus disciples. In spite of the miraculous evidences, people rationalized what they knew, and then rejected Jesus.
Based on Daniel 12:4, Sir Isaac Newton concluded that some day man would travel at 50 miles per hour. Who would have imagined then, how much greater a fulfillment of prophecy would take place. The miraculous evidences today are inescapable. Perhaps the biggest underlying issue is the dramatic changes on planet earth in the past two centuries, particularly Israel restored, then the increase in knowledge & travel and for the first time in history, great trouble that impacts the whole world – not isolated geographically. Clearly God somehow has a hand in all this. Right? How else are these changes coming about? How then is it such a leap of faith to imagine that the invisible returned Jesus, God’s Chief Messenger in accomplishing this?
As is historically evident, this increase in knowledge spans every area, i.e. science, technology, medicine, agriculture, the Bible, etc. Regarding the Bible, Daniel says that at the time of the end the Wise would Understand (Dan 12:9-12). Daniel says this in regard to the 1290 and 1335 days and indicates the book of Daniel will be unsealed. This was fulfilled in Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, “They Kingdom Come.” If we are wrong, would you then say that we cannot understand Daniel today and its meaning is yet to be revealed in the future? On the other hand, if the book of Daniel is now unsealed, than Michael has already stood up. Right? If now fulfilled how, how do you think it was? Who explained the meaning of Daniels prophecies if not Brother Russell in volume 3 “Thy Kingdom Come”?
Most people make a mistake with end time prophecies, thinking that everything happens quickly, however most parables and historical prophecies play out over centuries, as in the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre, which was fulfilled in stages taking several centuries till all the prophetic declarations were fulfilled. Even the Apostles were thinking that Jesus might be setting up his kingdom in their time until Jesus told them it was not for them to know when (Acts 1:6). In Daniel 12 – When Michael Stands up in the time of the end: Knowledge increases. One source claims the world’s knowledge is doubling every two years now – http://www.digitalstrategyconsulting.com/netimperative/news/2011/06/worlds_data_more_than_doubling.php
NOW THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?
Understanding the role of the Lord’s people at the time of Jesus second presence can best be learned by a careful study of the scriptures relating to this topic. We recommend the link below as a good place to start.
https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2012/09/01/our-lords-great-prophecy-jesus-second-presence/
The Hebrew word rishown means “chief” and is translated in Greek as arche and therefore verse 10 is speaking of “arch-princes.” With Jude 9 calling him “Michael the archangel” and with Daniel 10:3 clearly showing that Michael is an angel it is clear that he is ‘one of the archangels.’ This grammatical pattern is the same as when a person introduces himself as “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” He or she clearly is one out of millions of other Witnesses and not the only JW. In contrast Jesus is unique in his class as Son of God. Furthermore, the fact that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 speaks of “an archangel’s voice” shows that there is more than one archangel.
Charles Taze Russell taught. The Watchtower magazine of November 1879 on page 4 stated:
His [Jesus’] position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having ‘all power in heaven and earth.’ Hence it is said, ‘Let all God’s angels worship him;’ [that must include Michael, the chief angel; hence, Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has ‘by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
Keepha – If it were said that ALL the people worshipped the king of their country, this would not prove that the king is not human. Hence, the fact that all the messengers worship Jesus would not strip him of His pre-human title as God’s – Chief Messenger / Word / Logos
Dear Peter…
I really appreciate your expressions. You and the Bible Students are loving people who are reflecting the image of Messiah well. Here is my reply to what you previously wrote.
2 Samuel 7:13 “no I don’t”, but Jesus had to have free will or what was the point of the test he encountered in the wilderness. Furthermore my dear brother the prophecy of this scripture does not change the tense; for instance the word ESTAI(will be) is used in Hebrews 1:5, but now the tense is middle future in Greek. Here is an example of how that ESTAI is use Matt 24:3>
CJB Matthew 24:3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the talmidim came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen?(future middle tense) And what will be the sign that you are coming, and that the ‘olam hazeh is ending?”
The problem with “in the beginning was the SON” is that we could be damaging and contradicting Matthew’s and Luke’s deliberate and detailed account of the Son of God. Matthew and Luke describe the origin. For instance Matt. 1:18 says genesis which is a Greek verb participle aorist passive nominative neuter singular and means begetting=coming into existence, you cannot come into existence if you existed before, can you? This is the same word used for John the Baptizer in Luke CJB Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Don’t be afraid, Z’kharyah; because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elisheva will bear you a son{ begetting=coming into existence}, and you are to name him Yochanan. The Bible confirms a miraculous conception of the Son God, by means of Jesus in the womb of Mary some 2000 years ago. In fact the Septuagint agree when it says: LXE Psalm 110:3 With you is dominion in the day of your power, in the splendors of your saints: I have begotten you from the womb before the morning. This is the beginning of the Son of God, born in Mary’s womb —the descendant of David, the long-promised Messiah of Israel and of the world, the head of the new creation.”What is begotten IN [en aute-{pronoun personal dative feminine singular from} her is the work of the holy spirit” (Matt. 1:20). Notice not just “conceived,”although it was certainly that too, but “begotten, fathered, brought into existence, caused to come to be.””In her.” In Mary, not coming from outside her or through her! For how can Jesus truly be the son of David and Abraham is he is older than both of them. A Son cannot be older than his own Father, can he? This is the same point we use with Trinitarians, explaining to them that Jesus IS NOT EQUAL TO YAHWEH THE FATHER,>>> BECAUSE<<< the Father is older in age, this lovely Greek verb is used by Jesus in John 14:28 MEIZON=Older…Which is the same word use in Roman 9:1.
So this is my position on when God bought his beloved Son into existence for Jesus is the beginning of the new creation of God. This is the moment when God became the Father of the Son of God, just as he had promised 1000 years before in 2 Samuel 7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be My Son" ( the future tense). With this clear information well learned it is faulty to set John in contradiction to Matthew and Luke! It is wise then to heed the words of the distinguished professor of Systematic Theology at Fuller Seminary:"To read John 1:1 as if it said ‘In the beginning was the Son’ is patently wrong" (Ex Auditu, 1991).
Also I am trying to keep the word count down to 500 words so as not overload and allow proper rebuttal.
Keepha – I have a total of four responses to you in the past 24 hours. I am not sure if you missed some of these.
Keepha how are you, so nice to hear from you. I see you are doing well with your studies of the Greek and Hebrew. That’s a plus, it is nice to learn other languages.
Most persons that have a heart relationship with Jesus want to and desire to understand the Bible. That is a positive.
The Bible however is not a history book, it is not a book telling all about creation, in fact there were bigger more powerful nations (like China and the gunpowder) than the ones the Bible constantly deals with.
One might ask why is this so important? Because without sin we would have no need for the Bible at all, our forefathers could relate all to us as they would be still alive.
The Bible is written to give us hope based on facts (Rom. 15:4).
Col.1:13-29 vs 15,16 “Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature; 16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for Him.
Notice, God was here first and probably before Jesus had some comforts or whatever, but to give us confidence that this Christ is someone you can count on he shows you he had a great big dominant part in creation of things dealing with men and invisible things (we don’t even know all of the invisible). He is not giving a science lesson here and neither was the simple unlettered men that wrote these words.
We have seen Father and son work together to build in a lesser sense and that is why he used this. ie’ a son almost rebuilds his first car with the help of his father, his father might supervise, do some major stuff and the son might also. The Dad does the heavy lifting by providing the MONEY. But it is the son’s work. Jesus said in Prov.8:22-36 He was especially fond of the sons of men, and he was a MASTER WORKER.
I mention this because I saw in one of your comments you are splitting hairs on whether Jesus did the ” genesis creation”. What parts of the all things mentioned in Col 1:13-29 are we to question?
Keepha, the average fool (or ignorant one in an educational sense) does not know nor will ever study Hebrew or Greek. It is not necessary to understand the Bible.
1Cor.2:1-16 Paul said and my speech and what I preached were not with persuasive words of wisdom. (or knowledge of languages) so no one could say it was by men’s wisdom but God vs. 3 He came in weakness and fear not puffed up with worldly knowledge. WHY?
1COR. 2:10- “BUT GOD HATH REVEALED THEM unto to us by HIS SPIRIT: for the SPIRIT SEARCHETH ALL THINGS, yea, the DEEP THINGS OF GOD.”
You mentioned Jesus never mentioned he created. Jesus was not a braggard, he is the son of God and he came humbly to serve as a redeemer for mankind. He never said God condensed him and put him in a woman’s womb and a whole ten worlds worth of stuff. We can’t handle it and we don’t need to know to get our life back. He is using K.I.S.S. (acronym, keep it simple stupid) it works in teaching life lessons.
The Bible is to tell you about Jesus and our redemption and to bring you in harmony with Jehovah so he will becomes all things
Personal study includes many elements, even studying Hebrew and Greek to edify and enhance. But you don’t need it to understand the bible, unless you want it to be under man’s power that you understand.
1Cor. 2:10, I get that if I drop to my knees and pray JEHOVAH, Lord Jesus send me the SPIRIT of GOD!!! They will.
John14:1-21 but vs 26. “But the HELPER, the HOLY SPIRIT, which the FATHER will send in my name, THAT ONE will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.”
Martin Luther said he wanted to make it so the PLOWBOY could understand the world of God. He knew that all you had to do was translate it in their language and get it in their hands and the HOLY SPIRIT of God would take it from there. Keepha, have you ever envisioned a plowboy would need to learn Hebrew or Greek to understand/ Not if God wrote it.
Some doctrines are elementary, the milk of God. The prehumen existence of Jesus is indeed one of those. Whether one believes even in the trinity or not all bible reading people know Jesus came from heaven. Sunday school classes start with this basic fact and build on his coming to earth etc. If he wasn’t from heaven then we are in a pickle here.
Keepha I am not trying to be a put down or know it all but this fad that has popped up on the internet of using a study of Hebrew and greek to prove this or that wrong is getting unnerving.
Many are not seeing the forest for the tree that they are all hovering around (study of greek and Hebrew) It’s everywhere now Keepha.
It can stunt your growth for it will have you going back to elementary doctrines so that you will still 5 years from now need milk instead of meat. (Heb. 5:12) Theses Christians were pass milk but had slipped so far back they needed a bottle again instead of table food or some steak of God’s word.
I SINCERELY HOPE FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART, that I am not offending you or anyone here.
2Cor. 11: 28 Paul often spoke frankly: 28. “Besides those things of an external kind, there is what rushes in on me from day to day, the anxiety for all the congregations. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled and I am not incensed.?”
SATAN is a powerful creature and he will stick his foot out and cause you to fall, Watch OUT for him and test the Spirit.
In Christian love and as a mother to you dear young Keepha,
Jacqueline
Keepha – I have had some real demands on my time, so it will take a while for me to respond and catch up to you. I had thought these were issues we were going to discuss over the phone, however you are welcome to bring them public if you prefer.
Understanding Greek and Hebrew would be tremendous assets. I wish I could read and understand Greek and Hebrew. Nonetheless, we have tools at our disposal to aid in this area (Lexicons, concordances, dictionaries, computers, etc.) However, we wonder, why is it that Greek people don’t have the greatest understanding of scriptures of anyone in the world? Why do most of them believe in Hell, Trinity and Immortality of the Soul?
John 16 (RVIC) says, “13 Howbeit when that one, the spirit of truth, is come, it shall guide you into all the truth: for it shall not speak from itself; but what things soever it shall hear, these shall it speak: and it shall declare unto you the things that are to come.”
No matter how much knowledge one has of Greek and Hebrew, in the end the really effective tool to understanding Truth is the Holy Spirit. In that regard we encourage those seeking Truth to consider being baptized into Christ and the narrow way to the heavenly call and spirit begetal (anointing by the Holy Spirit).
You said, “Matt. 1:18 says genesis which is a Greek verb participle aorist passive nominative neuter singular and means begetting=coming into existence, you cannot come into existence if you existed before, can you?”
Yes you can come into existence again if you existed before. Is that not the whole point of the resurrection from the dead?
Jesus was begotten again (came into existence again) when he was raised from the dead.
Acts 13:33 (RVIC) says, “33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
John 1:18 (RVIC) “No man hath seen God at any time; an only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
The John 1:18 verse must apply to the creation of Jesus in His pre-human existence. After all, you cannot say that Jesus was a God as a man on earth.
To get the context here, John the Baptist indicates the Jesus existed before him, even though John was six months older than Jesus.
John 1:15 (RVIC) says, “John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.”
Heb 1:5 proves Jesus was not angel.: “But to which of the angels did He [God] ever say I have begotten you.
JB Hebrews 1:5 To which of the angels, then, has God ever said: You are my Son, today I have fathered you, or: I shall be a father to him and he a son to me?
The Greek word used here is (gennao)
Meaning: to beget, to bring forth
Origin: from genna (descent, birth)
Usage: bear(1), bearing children(1), became the father(3), begotten(4), bore(1), born(59),brought forth(1), conceived(1), Father(m)(1), gives birth(1), offspring(m)(1), produce(1).
Notes:
a Psa 2:7; Act 13:33; Heb 5:5
b 2Sa 7:14
Does not the book of Hebrews indicate Jesus was not an angel?
a) yes
b) no
Barnes’ Notes on Hebrews: unto which of the angels … – The object of this is, to prove that the Son of God, who has spoken to people in these last days, is superior to the angels. As the apostle was writing to those who had been trained in the Jewish religion, and who admitted the authority of the Old Testament, of course he made his appeal to that, and undoubtedly referred for proof to those places which were generally admitted to relate to the Messiah. Abarbanel says, that it was the common opinion of the Jewish doctors that the Messiah would be exalted above Abraham, Moses, and the angels
CJB 2 Samuel 7:14 I will be a father for him, and he will be a son for me. If he does something wrong, I will punish him with a rod and blows, just as everyone gets punished;
The Hebrew verb qal imperfect 3rd person masculine singular l. particle preposition suffix 1st person common singular . the Hebrew tense is a verb in the imperfect, which is a future tense for Hebrew..so the text is saying he will be my son, not he was my son or is my son. So according to 2 Samuel 7:14(1040 B.C.E) when would he be the son?
Keepha – Since I covered this with Bob in detail, I will speed through it here. The expression “thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” applies to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead (Acts 13:33). Jesus was made greater than the angels when He was raised from the dead, not before. Yes, Jesus was also begotten at His creation, so a spirit body was created for him twice, the second body being divine and immortal. Just because there is no Bible verse that says that God begot an angel, doesn’t prove that the Hebrew word for Angel or Messenger can’t apply to Jesus. We saw that it did in Mal 3:1 that Jesus is called an angel/messenger.
Personally, I like the Dawn Bible students,I have most of their books and none of them glorify C.T. Russell but Jesus Christ! I also read the “Dawn magazine” every month….it consistently glorifies or Lord and savior as the one we should look to.For more info. on some of their beliefs and how they differ from other Bible students go to: http://www.dawnbible.com and read “oh the blessedness”
Hi K, Yes I believe we have that site referenced on the right side of this site. My first convention was on the dawn site. I called them and they told me how to get to the Chicago convention as it was the closest and the date was 1 day away. They are so nice and the BS all try to work together, yet maintain freedom of expression.
I find that we the xjw bring with us some times that choose a side and stick with it mentality as we had to do that as a witness. But you will find the Bible Students will express their point and still be friends like Barnabas and Paul with John Mark. Like the disciples arguing on the road and still in Acts you see them together, even at the last supper. We as xWitnesses have a hard time sometimes with giving people freedom without saying oh, I don’t like them. K, I have learned a lot from being around the BS. They will hash it out then sit down to eat and I wonder if those are the same people that was just in a room as we dug in the Bible with vim, vigor and vitality. And yes they were. It is refreshing.
If you could visit the General Convention you will see some of the brothers and sisters plus those from other classes that go there to help print, bind, produce some of the books at Dawn. I turned in a report myself with Br. Peter’s help to a Dawn committee. They don’t divide themselves up. I also got on one of the committees at the Herald magazine.
Some fights K are personal and I won’t get involved in a splitting match as Jehovah has called me to peace personally and I am just going to try to help others that want it until they can decide for themselves how they want to walk.
Dawn publishing house and the brothers living at Dawn are a delight as well as other publishing press brothers from other ecclias. Take Care K, Jacqueline
Jacqueline, yes I love the freedom of thought as expressed in the Bible,berean style thinking etc; a person should be able to give their opinion on a scripture without fear of being kicked out of an Org.Did you read what happened to actress Leah Remimi concerning the scientology religion? According to the news report she merely asked a question and they went off on her!
Yes I did, I know some of her associates and they didn’t join the religion because of the extremism. Here on this site we don’t push but we can’t allow persons to discourage new ones either. We want them to survey and come to their own decision in their walk. Not everyone wants to pick up that cross and bear it, but they love Jesus and Jehovah. We are commanded to tell it out and in the thousand year reign thay will have comfidence that they heard and saw the fulfillment and this is the way walk in it.
K, perhaps you noticed one of your links was taken off, this is because your second reply contained that link. We often do that to to make it easier for friends to find the comments and answers.
Jacqueline
To Bob and Peter;
If Jesus was immortal, then when Satan was testing him means nothing. The bottom line is Satan has been the god of this wicked world for about 6,000. Spirits, even when they sin, don’t grow old and die. Humans do. Romans 3:23;6:23.
Spirits have to be removed. Rev 20:10 True Jehovah could have eliminated Satan right away. Then when another challenged his right to rule saying he can do better or just as good, could continue to happen.
Plus, if Jehovah would have destroyed him, how would Jehovah buy mankind back? Remember Satan entered into Judas. And remember who gets credit for having Jesus killed. Satan, Gen 3:15 bruising him in the heel? Who gets bruised in the head. Satan!
Heb 4:15,”but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Satan tried all points possible right down to dying on a stake. If he was immortal, he would have said go away devil I am immortal. But after he was faithful to death Jehovah made him immortal.
Like when a father has a loyal son. He knows that when he gets home the lawn will be mowed. So he pays him his reward a head of time.
Hank, as I stated, he was made human while on Earth.
I agree with you Hank. Satan can and rightfully so address this issue that Jesus is immortal so his faithfully enduring as a man means nothing, it is a sham. Jesus being able to impart life with his father at creation doesn’t mean he is immortal. He is a master worker. Even human men impart life with the egg of a woman (not exactly the same thing but I’m going to use it anyway) but it does not mean they are anything but mother and father.
Divine- That which belongs or pertains to God, or is godlike or heavenly. But it has nothing to do with immortality. Angels are heavenly. Satan is a god, but he is not immortal. There are no scriptures to my knowledge in the Hebrew text that attributes immortality to Jesus in his prehumen existence. Yes in the Greek text as it talks about after the resurrection.
Trinitarians believe Jesus was immortal because they know God is immortal so if they are the same Jesus must be immortal. But the Bible does not teach that Jesus was clothed with immortality before his ascension.
If he was then he was better than Adam, not a match and we are saved by that fact (that he was immortal as a man) not the redemption of Adam. It is overkill to have an immortal die for us.
But, immortals don’t die. They sustain themselves. Satan when tempting him acknowledged that angels would be sent to keep him from dying if he jumped. He could have cloaked if he was immortal for that moment. But it was a true temptation by Satan he was a little lower than Angels and was a human.
Hi Bob;
This os to simple I have to show you. Son of man at Dan 7:13. Yea! We agree. Dan 12:1 Michael in charge for the time, what time? “and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.”
Jesus speaking, Mt 24:21 about a future time. “For then there shall be great tribulation, such as what not sine the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
These two awful times are the same. And if you read Jesus words through this he comes to show who is coming and is in charge. Who is it? 27,”so shall also the coming of the Son of man be” 30,”and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: …they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds.” 37,”coming of the Son of man be.” 39,”so shall the coming of the Son of man will be.” 42,”for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” 44,”Son of man cometh.”
Jesus says son of man in chapter 25 also more than once and Lord more than once.
If I used your reasoning, and said, it doesn’t say Jesus, so how do I know it is him? He talks about him being the one coming very plain and simple, ands shows Dan 12:1 and Mt 24:21 are about him.
Hope you can see it Bob
Hank
Everyone – Although we do not place much weight in most Christian commentators, sometimes we find help in the meaning of Greek or Hebrew expressions or words. Nonetheless, I was surprised to find so many of them concluding that Michael the Archangel is Jesus.
Here is what some Bible Commentaries say –
Albert Barnes: “But, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes Margin, “the first.” That is, the first in rank of the “princes,” or the angels. In other words, Michael, the archangel.””
John Gill: “but, lo, Michael one of the chief Princes, came to help me; called in the New Testament an Archangel, the Prince of angels, the Head of all principality and power; and is no other than Christ the Son of God… who is “one,” or “the first of the chief Princes””
John Wesley: “Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ.”
Adam Clark: “But lo, Michael Gabriel, who speaks, did not leave Cyrus till Michael came to take his place. Michael, he who is like God, sometimes appears to signify the Messiah, at other times the highest or chief archangel. Indeed there is no archangel mentioned in the whole Scripture but this one. {See #Jude 1:9 Re 12:7 }.”
Calvin’s Commentaries: “He adds next, Behold! Michael, one of the chief leaders or princes, came to strengthen me. Some think the word Michael represents Christ, and I do not object to this opinion. Clearly enough, if all angels keep watch over the faithful and elect, still Christ holds the first rank among them, because he is their head, and uses their ministry and assistance to defend all his people.”
Matthew Poole: “Michael: this we take to be Christ.
1. His name signifies, who is like God.
2. He is the first in dignity above all the angels, #Heb 1:4-7, &c., called archangel, and the church’s prince, #Da 10:21.
3. The chief champion of his church, helping Gabriel not as his fellow, but as his general.”
To Bob;
After jesus said the Father was looking for such worshippers I continued reading on. I believe it was about 30 C.E. when Jesus said the following,”Do you not say that after four months comes the harvest? behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes, and look at the fields, which have turned white and have long been ready for the harvest.” John 4:35 Shoetly after the words the Smartians came off of the witness the woman gave them, and listened for two days. Note what they said. “for we ourselves have heard and know, that this is indded the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” John 4:42
Note Jesus words about people who were raised in the truth. “For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet is not honored in his own city.” John 4:44
What kind of faith did these people in the truth have? “Jesus said to him,Unless you see miracles and wonders, you will not believe.”
What a difference from those in Samaria where Jesus told them they worship what they don’t know, compared to those in Isral that had God’s truths and prophets. If it was 30 C.E. it would be another 4 years before the good news would some to Samaria.
We can believ that because Jesus said so, Acts 1:8,”be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea also in the province of Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 8:1,”dispersed throughout the towns of Judea, and Samaria.” 5,”Then Philip went down to a Samaritan city and preached to them about Christ.” 6,”they gave heed and listened attentively to everything.” 8,”And there was great joy in that city.” 12,”But when they believed Philip, preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
Do you think any of them were from those Jesus taught? I do, but I can’t prove it. Was the ones taking the lead in the new way concerned?
Read on,14,”Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that the Samaritan people had accepted the word of God, they sent to them Simon Peter and John.” Yes, they were very concerned for them. And what did they do? 15,”Who, when they went down,prayed over them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16,”For as yet it had not come upon them although they had been baptized in the name of our Lord.” 17,”Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.”
25,”Now when Simon Peter and John had testified and taught them the word of God, they returned to Jerusalem after they had preached in many Samaritan villages.”
Did you catch they went to many Samaritan villages and did what? Preached and taught. Do you think they remembered Jesus words from about four years earlier? I do, but I can’t prove it.
Hank
To Bob and Peter;
I will let you two talk it out from here. A simple verse shows a peoblem Phil 4:2 Diaglott,”I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord.”
Ro 15:5,6; 1 Cor 1:10; 2 Cor 13:11; Php 2:2; 1 Pe 3:8
But before I leave I would like to share a few verses.
Diaglott John 4:23,”when the True Worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth; for the Father even seeks such like as his Worshippers.”
Who is speaking? Who will be worshipped? Jesus was speaking but clearly says the Father is the one who will be worshipped.
Note what Jesus told the devil. Diaglott Mt 4:10,”Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shall thou serve.”
Did the devil listen to Jesus? Or did he get people to worship Jesus? Well your post says they worshipped Jesus. And just to let you know they did not worship Jesus. They did obiesance. Which means,”a bodily gesture, as a bow, expressing respect.” 2. “deference or homage.”
Where do people get the idea that Jesus was worshipped by angels? Diaglott,”And let all God’s angels worship him.” 15 letter word in Greek rendered,”let worship.”
West Cott and Hort render the 15 Greek letter word,”let do obeisance toward.”
BLE reads,”let all God’s angels do him reverence.”
NEB reads,”Let all the angels of God pay him homage.” Homage,”reverential respect.”
The dictionary has several meaning on worship, here are a couple,”reverent honor given to a deity.” “great admiration or regard.” “Brit., a titke of honor in addressing a magistrate or mayor(usally prec. by Your or His or Her).-v.t.
So when Jesus teaches us that a person must worship God only. We either obey or disobey. The ones who disobey allow the cunning serpent to apply the wrong meaning to a verse or word.
Hank