Click here for the new and updated article: Who is Michael the Archangel 2014_08_27
Below is the older version of the article which is less complete.
Is Michael the Archangel Jesus or is Michael just a mighty angel? Does the Bible answer this question?
We believe that a careful examination of scriptures will provide compelling evidence that Michael the Archangel is Jesus. Yet since Hebrews 1:4-14 shows that Jesus is greater than the angels, how can Jesus possibly be an angel?
The honest and sincere student of scripture will want to carefully examine the evidence.
WHAT DOES THE NAME “MICHAEL” MEAN?
The word “Michael” in Daniel 12:1 comes from Strong’s 4317 meaning, “who is like God.” Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon also agrees with this definition.
Who else is like God but Jesus Himself?
CAN JESUS BE CALLED AN ANGEL?
The word “angel” itself, Strong’s #32 is defined as, “a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication, a pastor.”
On occasion, the Greek and Hebrew words for angel simply have the meaning of messenger and do not refer to angels. Here are examples where the Greek and Hebrew do not refer to angels:
Matt 11:10 (NKJV ) “For this is he of whom it is written: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’” [Here Jesus is speaking of John]
Luke 7:24 (NKJV) “When the messengers of John had departed, He (Jesus) began to speak to the multitudes concerning John:”
James 2:25 (NKJV ) “Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”
Gen 32:3 (KJV) “And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother”
Many say Jesus cannot be Michael because Jesus is not an angel. The scriptures quoted above prove that the Greek and Hebrew words for angel broadly mean “messenger” and can apply to others besides angels. Jesus is God’s ultimate and supreme messenger. That is why he is called the “Logos” or the Word of God, i.e. God’s spokesperson or messenger.
Jesus is called an “angel” or “messenger in Malachi 3:1 (NKJV) where we read, “Behold, I send My messenger (John the Baptist Matt 11:10-11), And he will prepare the way before Me (Yawheh). And the Lord (Jesus), whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple (“Which Temple ye are.” 1 Cor 3:17), Even the Messenger (Jesus) of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.
In Revelation 20:1, 2 we have a great angel coming down from heaven with a chain in his hand to bind Satan. This great angel is generally accepted to be Jesus who is the one responsible for binding Satan.
Jesus is the “seed of the woman” who crushes the serpent’s head. Hebrews 2:14 (RVIC) says, “… that through death he might bring to nought the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;” Is there an angel powerful enough to bind Satan? Of course not.
Yes, it is Jesus who binds Satan. Gen 3:15 shows that the seed (Jesus) crushes Satan’s head. More broadly, it is The Christ, Head and Body who binds Satan (Rom 16:20). Jesus death’ on the Cross guaranteed Him the authority to destroy Satan (Hebrews 2:14).
IS JESUS THE ARCHANGEL?
We find the word archangel in 1 Thes 4:16 and Jude 9. It is from Strong’s 743 meaning “a chief angel,” Let’s break the word up into its two parts. “Arch” is Strong’s 757 meaning, “to be first (in political rank or power):– reign (rule) over” The other part, “angel” is from Strong’s 32, meaning, “a messenger, especially an angel.”
So how does comparing 1 Thess 4:16 and Jude 9 help us to identify who Michael is? Well we know that Jesus descends from heaven with the “voice of Archangel” and that Michael is the “Archangel.” So therefore, Michael must be Jesus. After all, I cannot have your voice, even if I can use your trumpet. So Jesus must be using his own voice, yes the voice of the archangel (meaning chief messenger – the Word of God – the Logos).
HOW DOES THE WORD “PRINCE” HELP US IDENTIFY WHO MICHAEL IS?
In Daniel 12:1 (NKJV), Michael is described as, “the great prince (Strong’s 8269)who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare Isaiah 9:6 which calls Jesus the “prince of peace” (Strong’s 8269)
Jesus is also called the “prince” in the New Testament
Acts 3:15: “prince of life”
Acts 5:11: “prince and Savior”
Remember how in Daniel 12:1, Michael is described as, “the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare with Matthew 2:6:
Matt 2:6: “out of thee [Bethlehem] shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.” (Micah 5:2 Governor/Ruler = Strongs 4910-6.)
In both cases Michael/Jesus is ruler over Israel. Does Israel have two spiritual rulers – Michael and Jesus? Of course not. Jesus is Michael.
In contrast, in Eph 2:2 Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”
IS MICHAEL THE CHIEF PRINCE OR ONE OF MANY EQUAL PRINCES?
The argument that Michael is “one [of many] of the Chief Princes” in Daniel 10:13 is not correct.
Notice the more accurate rendering in Young’s Literal Translation –
Daniel 10:13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;”
Albert Barnes’ Commentary: “the first.” That is, the first in rank of the “princes,” or the angels. In other words, Michael, the archangel.””
John Gill’s Commentary: “…is no other than Christ the Son of God… who is “one,” or “the first of the chief Princes””
The word “first of,” sometimes translated “one of” is Strongs 259 meaning, “a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:” This word is translated “first” four (4) times in the book of Daniel, i.e. Dan 11:1 which says, “…in the first year of Darius the Mede…” KJV. So we see that Daniel 10:13 is not indicating that there are several chief heads or princes.
The word translated “heads” or more often “princes” is Strongs 8269, the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 12:1 associated with Michael the Archangel who is the great prince.
The word “chief” as in “chief princes” is from Strongs 7223 and it means “first, in place, time or rank.”
So Michael is the first or number one prince. In other words, Michael is Jesus.
Dan 12:1 calls him the “GREAT prince” and Dan 10:21 calls him “Michael your prince.” Over Israel, God would have appointed His highest ranking prince. Right? Is there a prince that ranks higher than Jesus? Another spirit being would not have been given more responsibility and authority than Jesus.
JESUS APPEARED TO MOSES?
Paul tells us about Jesus in Hebrews 3:3 that He, “…was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.” So Jesus is the one that built Moses’ house (the nation of Israel under the Law Covenant). As the builder of the house, Jesus was the main messenger appearing to Moses at the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinia (Gal 3:19; Acts 7:53) as the Word or representative of Jehovah.
The point is that during the Jewish age, Jesus was the chief prince/messenger/angel speaking to Moses on behalf of Jehovah/ Yahweh, at the burning bush and on Mount Sinai. If Michael is the chief prince of Israel, Michael must be Jesus, the chief prince. Otherwise, would you conclude that Michael is higher ranking than Jesus? If Michael was the chief prince and Jesus was not, than how is Jesus superior to Michael? Therefore they must both be the same person.
We find more evidence of Jesus activity with ancient Israel here: Jude 5 (ESV) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
SIGNS OF DANIEL 12 ALREADY FULFILLED!
Daniel 11 brings us up to the time of the end and Daniel 12 brings us 5 signs of the time of the end:
1) Increase in knowledge (i.e. technology, mobile phones, Internet, etc.)
2) Increase in travel (cars, planes, space travel)
3) “children of your people delivered” (Israel a nation)
4) Great time of trouble (world wars, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, Mao, Hitler, Stalin, etc. murder over 100 million non-combatants last century)
5) Book of Daniel unsealed and explained (If not Volume 3, “Thy Kingdom Come,” then how is that fulfilled?)
So if this does not prove that we have been in the time of the end and that Jesus (pictured here as Michael) has returned, then what does this all mean?
Once prophecy is fulfilled, it’s meaning becomes more evident. For example, in Jesus day, people looking at Daniel 9 (70 weeks) thought that Messiah would defeat the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom at that time. Once history played out, the purpose of the Messiah became clear to Jesus disciples. In spite of the miraculous evidences, people rationalized what they knew, and then rejected Jesus.
Based on Daniel 12:4, Sir Isaac Newton concluded that some day man would travel at 50 miles per hour. Who would have imagined then, how much greater a fulfillment of prophecy would take place. The miraculous evidences today are inescapable. Perhaps the biggest underlying issue is the dramatic changes on planet earth in the past two centuries, particularly Israel restored, then the increase in knowledge & travel and for the first time in history, great trouble that impacts the whole world – not isolated geographically. Clearly God somehow has a hand in all this. Right? How else are these changes coming about? How then is it such a leap of faith to imagine that the invisible returned Jesus, God’s Chief Messenger in accomplishing this?
As is historically evident, this increase in knowledge spans every area, i.e. science, technology, medicine, agriculture, the Bible, etc. Regarding the Bible, Daniel says that at the time of the end the Wise would Understand (Dan 12:9-12). Daniel says this in regard to the 1290 and 1335 days and indicates the book of Daniel will be unsealed. This was fulfilled in Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, “They Kingdom Come.” If we are wrong, would you then say that we cannot understand Daniel today and its meaning is yet to be revealed in the future? On the other hand, if the book of Daniel is now unsealed, than Michael has already stood up. Right? If now fulfilled how, how do you think it was? Who explained the meaning of Daniels prophecies if not Brother Russell in volume 3 “Thy Kingdom Come”?
Most people make a mistake with end time prophecies, thinking that everything happens quickly, however most parables and historical prophecies play out over centuries, as in the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre, which was fulfilled in stages taking several centuries till all the prophetic declarations were fulfilled. Even the Apostles were thinking that Jesus might be setting up his kingdom in their time until Jesus told them it was not for them to know when (Acts 1:6). In Daniel 12 – When Michael Stands up in the time of the end: Knowledge increases. One source claims the world’s knowledge is doubling every two years now – http://www.digitalstrategyconsulting.com/netimperative/news/2011/06/worlds_data_more_than_doubling.php
NOW THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?
Understanding the role of the Lord’s people at the time of Jesus second presence can best be learned by a careful study of the scriptures relating to this topic. We recommend the link below as a good place to start.
https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2012/09/01/our-lords-great-prophecy-jesus-second-presence/
Dear beloved Jacqueline I will provide an excerpt from the article:
SUGGESTED LITERATURE FOR IN-DEPTH STUDY
OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
Some students have the view that they can entirely understand the Scriptures without reference to any scholarly works or perhaps only to one or two, such as Strong’s concordance. This approach has often led to the formation of cults because insufficient up-to-date information has been applied to the studies of the Scriptures. For example, with limited information some individuals or organizations have placed their followers under tithing systems which have brought many members to desperate poverty. Others have placed their members into unnecessary life or death situations or situations that waste huge amounts of time for no real Christian purpose.
As an illustration of why it is beneficial for Christians to use up-to-date scholarly works we may refer to court cases where either the judge or a lawyer will call for “expert” witnesses. These “experts” will be the individuals who have a very great amount of knowledge and experience in, for example, forensics or post mortems or air crash investigation or in how fires may have been started etc. Some “expert” witnesses may even contradict others so once the judge and the jury have taken in the testimony from these “experts” they must filter it through all other information given regarding the case. Then they must weigh up everything they know pertaining to the particular case and come to a conclusion. In this way they can come to a much better decision than they otherwise would have if “expert” witnesses had not been called. This is also true regarding biblical studies. When one has access to the works of the best of the scholars and the work of those who have deciphered the multiplicity of archaeological finds relevant to biblical research, then one can considerably improve ones understanding of the Scriptures.
Jacqueline Raymond Franz is with me on this in his Crisis of Conscience, where he mentioned that the GB where not the Bible scholars they thought they were, and so they starting using scholary works. I think the most important thing we could understand about Messiah is that he is the Lamb that died for us and provided a ransom for all.
Keepha thank you so much for that it makes a lot of sense, I can’t deny that those are valid, proper Points.
The only thing I would like to add that makes this different in some regards is the promised Helper. I need to tell you about some experiences I have had while going door to door in the Southern part of the United States. Some of these people could hardly read and would have children etc read to them or attempt to read when I gave them the bible. They could tell you what that scripture meant and it is still truth now. They literally in all their ignorance and illiteracy whip us at the door!! I now know the Greek and Hebrew of some of those words now and know the society was wrong and these people had the right understanding. What was this?? It was the Holy Spirit of Jehovah God Almighty. A donkey was made to declare properly the will of God. Br. James, sis. Tolver,both deceased knew more truth about the bible than most bible scholars. Br. James was a PhD and a genius, Sr. Tolver could read and loved God but didn’t have high school education. I dare a CO or Do to tackle her on the word of God. She studied in the Spirit, often she said w Ith prayer and supplication.
So I am just saying watch out for the Holy Spirit, The Power of God, as it has helped persons to raise the dead. On little cell phone still waiting on internet people so excuse mistakes. But I like your article thank you.
{you wrote}Keepha – I don’t see that the Word Biblical Commentary provides any evidence that the seven angels in Revelation 8:2 are Archangels.I do not see “Arch” appearing in the text before “angels.” Nor do I see any translations indication “Archangels.” So I do not see evidence that this supports the concept of seven Archangels{reply}Peter you may want to ask a Greek grammarian about Col 1:16 where it has ARKAI, which is a noun nominative feminine plural common from ARKE, so Paul believes that there is more than one archangel. We have already established that the book of Enoch does not call the Messiah Michael, but calls him the Elect One/Son of Man. If you consult any Dead Sea Scroll scholar he will tell you this. They found a copy of the DSS document in Qumran.
{you wrote} I have support for the word begotten (Strong’s 1080) in three of the four cases. I am not sure yet about #1 below, however I do believe we have verses indicating Jesus was the first being God created. 1) Jesus created (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14) {reply} Col 1:15 contains the Greek adjective prototokos, which means the Messiah has become ” proteuon”(i.e. preeminent) among all. The Greek verb “proteuon” means to hold the first place. Notice the him Hebrew Scriptures here: (Psalm 89:27) Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth. The key phrase is “place him as firstborn” that is by appointment he is prototokos(first-born) i.e preeminent.. Another translation reads CJB Psalm 89:28 I will give him the position of firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. Therefore Jesus was given the position of firstborn, which makes no sense if he was already the firstborn. For instance who received the firs-born privileges Jacob or Esau? but who born first Jacob or Esau?
{you wrote} 2) Jesus born of Mary (Luke 1:35; John 18:37; Matt 1:16; 2:4{reply} Peter nice citation of Scriptures. I would also like to add in Gal 4:4 But when the full period was complete, God sent out His Son, having come into existence from a woman, having come into existence under the law. So Paul shows that Messiah comes into existence from a woman.
{you wrote} 3) Spirit begettal takes place after baptism, when becoming a New Creature (John 1:13; 1 John 5:1){reply} thank you for quoting John 1:13. You have bought up the crime scene. I would see John 1:13 as the Orthodox corruption of scripture. My research reveals the following. John 1:13(corrected text) to those putting their trust in the name of him 13 who(singular) was fathered, not by common processes nor by human choice nor by a husband’s decision, but from God. In harmony with Matthew’s and Luke’s Gospel this rendering shows that John acknowledged Jesus’ coming into existence as God’s direct Son through a virgin. The basis for this rendering is the 1920 German translation by Albrecht whose notes state:I am following here in John 1:13 an extremely old reading found in Irenaeus and Tertullian. The singular verb ‘was begotten’ referring to Jesus, not to believers, prevailed in texts from the second to the fourth century in the West, and left important traces in the East also. John confesses expressly here his belief in the virginal begetting and birth of Jesus, which Matthew and Luke describe in much more detail. Similarly, the Jerusalem Bible renders the verse as: “him who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself.” The New Jerusalem Bible reverts to the old reading but has a footnote on this issue. Anytime Orthodox scribes are changing scripture, it shows that the reading did not coincide with their Trinitarian belief.
{you wrote} 4) When He was raised from the dead to the Divine Spirit Nature. (Heb 5:5; Acts 13:33){reply}notice that the Greek word Gennao in Heb 5:5 and Acts 13:33 are not spelled the same, nor do they have the same tense. {you wrote} I am not sure what your point is on Psalms 80:17 ){reply}NAU Psalm 80:17 Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself. Messiah is called “the man” are right hand, not the Angel at the right hand. As the Hebrew writer says: “to which of any one of the angels did God ever say:” You are my Son” Regarding Acts 13:33, the good translations that I looked at contradict your view.{reply}Commentary from Focus on the Kingdom say:Acts 13:33 is a text often abused to suppress the clear application of Psalm 2:7, “You are My Son; today I have become your Father,” to the beginning of the existence of the Son. Paul did not describe the resurrection in Acts 13:33. The KJV wrongly adds the word “again” to the Greek text. This misleads the reader into thinking that Jesus became the Son of God only at his resurrection. This would contradict the early chapters of Matthew and Luke, and especially Luke 1:35 which is the plainest possible statement of the truth that Jesus was Son of God from the moment he was “begotten”(=”brought into existence”) by miracle in Mary.
I guess I would like to know that since you do not believe in the pagan Trinity, why are you using Trinitarian Bible translations to prove your point.
With Christian love
Keepha
Keepha – Before I reply, what are the non-trinitarian translations you recommend for regular study?
Keepha – If someone told me that they believed that Melchizedek was Enoch, rather than try to refute them, I would ask them why they believed this so that I could consider the evidence and respond to that. Perhaps that is the better approach for you to take on the pre-human existence. However, if you prefer, I will stay on the defensive and respond to your points.
It may not be the best idea to establish Truth from a non-inspired book like the book of Enoch. Our English translation is second hand from the Ethiopian language and most of the book is likely not authentic, but rather later additions. Let’s stay focused on establishing Truth from the inspired scriptures.
COLOSIANS 1:16 – ARKAI
Keepha – You said, “Peter you may want to ask a Greek grammarian about Col 1:16 where it has ARKAI, which is a noun nominative feminine plural common from ARKE, so Paul believes that there is more than one archangel.
The word “Arch” from “Archangel” is a different Strong’s # and meaning (757 ἄρχω archo ar’-kho) in 1 Thess 4:16 and Jude 9, than the Col 1:16 (Strong’s 746) verse you are referring to. As a matter of fact, Paul uses your Strong’s 746 again in verse 18 applying to Jesus; so I would think you would want to steer away from Stong’s 746.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities <746> or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning <746>, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
In my nest response, we will move on to the evidence showing Jesus was created or begotten four times.
Keepha,
Here is my response to your rebuttal of the four times Jesus was created or begotten:
1) Jesus the first creation of God: Your rebuttal is that in Colossians 1:15. You said that Prototokos means first-born in the sense of preeminent. Funny that you should be using the Trinitarian argument on this verse. The simple answer is that “Prototokos” has two meanings which normally both apply, 1) first in order born and 2) preeminent. Why did you not indicate both meanings? Were you not aware of this?
Take for example Matt 1:25 (NKJV) which says, “… she [Mary] had brought forth her firstborn <4416> Son. And he called His name JESUS.” Here it is inescapable that Prototokos includes the thought of first in order born.
There is very much to say on Col 1:15 and “Prototokos,” which is explained in more detail here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/02/25/did-jesus-have-a-beginning-was-he-created/
2) We agree that Jesus was born of Mary, however disagree as to as to whether he pre-existed (point 1 above).
3) Jesus spirit begotten when baptized by John at Jordan: I quoted John 1:13 which shows that the anointed are spirit begotten and become a New Creation when Yahweh/Jehovah accepts their baptism/consecration. Your reply was to verse 14 which does not relate my point that Jesus was spirit begotten at His baptism when the holy spirit descended upon him and He was then the first to become a New Creature.
4) When He was raised from the dead to the Divine Spirit Nature. (Heb 5:5; Acts 13:33)
You said, “notice that the Greek word Gennao in Heb 5:5 and Acts 13:33 are not spelled the same, nor do they have the same tense.” Well let’s take a look at the verses and find out. Both verses are in the perfect tense ( Strong’s 5758). Both are the exact same Greek word begotten γεγέννηκά (Strong’s 1080).
Acts 13:33 (NKJV) “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten [1080 (5758)] You.’
Heb 5:5 (NKJV) So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten [1080 (5758)] You.”
If in Psalms 80:17 “the man” applies to Jesus, I do not see a problem since of course when Jesus was a man, however we know that He is not always a man.
to my JW brothers out there. I think you will be glad to know that Greg Deuble has had contact with the JW’s regarding whether Jesus is Michael and here is the response: “I appreciate your concurrence that the JW position is purely inference which is to say, it is not a clearly stated teaching in Scripture” I respond to this that if it is not clearly taught in scripture, then WHY is the Watchtower teaching it and with dogmatic assertion. Just like the Divine Name, the Watchtower knows there is no J letter in Hebrew, nor is there a V letter, so how could you ever get the name Jehovah. Anyhow this is the price we students pay when we receive information from those not trained in Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I am working on getting a copy of this letter about Jesus and Michael scanned for those who are interested. I love you ‘all my brothers please lets not trust anything somebody tell us.
Keepha hi, I Personally Don’t know who Mr Deuble is but he is a man. If you don’t believe that Michael is Jesus and another person does, do you feel this is a salvation issue? The Walsh court case revealed that JW must for the sake of unity agree on Everything. Do you feel this true on this issue?
Also you address your JW brothers, most visiting the site are breaking free or have done so. You say to them “please Let’s not trust anything somebody tells us”. But you quote Mr. Deuble.
The brothers here are learning to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. So I agree while one may consider, read or discuss other’s opinions, the bible is the final answer. And if it doesn’t say definitely we have to accept that and each have their opinions. That is the beauty of where we are now. Freedom to not be told what to accept but to reason for ourselves . There are so many sources out there and training our minds to draw a conclusion without asking others is when we know we are somewhat free.
You have come a long way dear Keepha and are to be commended. Those men are no more an authority than you, so accept only perhaps if You have reasoned it out and be secure with your personal decision.
In Christian Love. Jacqueline
*the fact that the same terms hypostasis and persona were used subsequently in the Christological debate to indicate the self hood of one who, as man, was a person in the modern sense of the word, was decisive…if you start the Christological sum with one individual substance (divine), it means you cannot introduce another (human) without finding yourself with the impossible exercise on your hands of trying to put two billiard balls on the same spot. Either the divine displaces the human [as in the doctrine of an hypostasis or the human exists, in Cyril’s phrase, ‘as another individually beside him’…
If you do not think of the Logos as ‘a being’ but as something more like ‘the self-expressive activity of God’ [Pittenger, The Word Incarnate, p. 187 and ch. 8 passim.], then you can recognize Jesus as ‘a man’ in the fullest possible sense, who can ALSO be his Word to the world.”
J.A.T. Robinson, The Human Face of God, pp. 103-104.
{you wrote}The Jewish tradition of 7 archangels doesn’t hold much water to me without scriptural support{reply} did you notice that the World Biblical Commentary cites Rev 8:2, is that not in the canon? In addition I need a solid reason why Jude is quoting from a Book of Enoch where more than one arcangel is mentioned?
{you wrote}
1) When created in the beginning as the Logos
2) When born of Mary
3) When baptized by John at Jordan and when the holy spirit descended upon Him, He was begotten to a new nature as a New Creature.
4) When He was raised from the dead to the Divine Spirit Nature.
{reply} you must be able to show me in which of the these 4 instances does Gennao appear?
{you wrote}Jesus was made greater than the angels when He was raised from the dead, not before. Yes, Jesus was also begotten at His creation, so a spirit body was created for him twice, the second body being divine and immortal. {reply} I would like for you to cite me a scripture which says ” a spirit body was created for Messiah twice”? Please explain Psalm 80:17?
Acts 13:33 is mistranslated and you may want to consult some commentaries and textual commentary on this issue.
in Christian love
Keepha
Keepha – I don’t see that the Word Biblical Commentary provides any evidence that the seven angels in Revelation 8:2 are Archangels. I do not see “Arch” appearing in the text before “angels.” Nor do I see any translations indication “Archangels.” So I do not see evidence that this supports the concept of seven Archangels.
I have support for the word begotten (Strong’s 1080) in three of the four cases. I am not sure yet about #1 below, however I do believe we have verses indicating Jesus was the first being God created.
1) Jesus created (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14)
2) Jesus born of Mary (Luke 1:35; John 18:37; Matt 1:16; 2:4)
3) Spirit begettal takes place after baptism, when becoming a New Creature (John 1:13; 1 John 5:1)
4) 4) When He was raised from the dead to the Divine Spirit Nature. (Heb 5:5; Acts 13:33)
I am not sure what your point is on Psalms 80:17. Regarding Acts 13:33, the good translations that I looked at seem to me to contradict your view.
Thanks dear brother Peter for your response. Its a blessing to have this discussion with you. Since the Scriptures encourage me in (1 Corinthians 4:6) . . .YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written. . .I see nowhere is scripture where it says Jesus is Michael, would you not agree? Next, Jude quotes from the Prophecy of Enoch (14-16)so it must have had some value, anyhow in the book of Enoch the Messiah is called the Elect One and Son of Man, but is not called Michael{fact}
Also it is noteworthy that the book of Enoch says “And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.’ This shows that Judaism understood it to be more than one Archangel in the Scriptures. The superior commentary says concerning 1 Thessalonians 4:16
It is doubtful if we should think of one individual archangel here, whether Michael or another….Jewish tradition knew of seven archangels, “the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and stand before the presence of the glory of the Holy One” (Tob 12:15; cf. Rev 8:2). In 1 Enoch 20:1–7 (Greek) they are called arcanggeloi and their names are listed as Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Sariel, Gabriel and Remiel. (The archangel Jeremiel in 4 Ezra 4:36 is probably to be identified with Remiel.) Word Biblical Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:16
You said lets focus on what the Scriptures says: Yes dear brother lets do that… I would need to know why Luke such a careful writer says in Luke 1:35 DIO KAI and why is he using the Greek verb GENNOMENON which is a NEUTER passive participle, PRESENT tense, of gennan, to beget?
The Prominent Biblical scholar Raymond Brown says on page 291 of his book that DIO KAI has embarrassed orthodox theologians, Luke is seemingly unaware of such[pre-existent] Christology; CONCEPTION is causally related to divine sonship for him.
So I have a listening ear…no one yet has been able to explain Luke 1:35 to me(whether Arian or Trinitarian) so I need a good explanation for this verse first.
In Christian love
Keepha
Keepha – Yes, I do think there is plenty of evidence which points to Jesus being Michael and having a pre-human existance. However most of our communication is me reponding to the evidence you present to the contrary. So here we go again. (In Christian love of course)
Per the scriptures I provided in my last comments, Enoch would not have known that Michael was Messiah. These matters were hid for ages, which things the prophets and even angels wished they could understand.
I see archangels plural in book 71 of the Book of Enoch. Anything after chapter 20 and prior to the last couple of chapters are unreliable later additions to the book. Also since the Book of Enoch is translated into English from an Ethiopian translation, we have no sure way to test the accuracy from the original Hebrew.
The Jewish tradition of 7 archangels doesn’t hold much water to me without scriptural support. As a matter of fact Jesus condemned many of the Jewish traditions which were not supported by the word of God. (Mark 7:8-13). Jude 9 refers to THE archangel, not AN archangel. So to me the Bible supports the idea of one archangel or chief representative of God.
I believe your argument in quoting Luke 1:35 is to establish that Jesus was first begotten when born of Mary, not in some mythical pre-existence.
If I correctly have understood your arguement, my reply is that Jesus was begotten four times.
1) When created in the beginning as the Logos
2) When born of Mary
3) When baptized by John at Jordan and when the holy spirit descended upon Him, He was begotten to a new nature as a New Creature.
4) When He was raised from the dead to the Divine Spirit Nature.
The expression “thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee” applies to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead (Acts 13:33).
Acts 13:33 (NASV) says, “33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today i have begotten You.”
Jesus was made greater than the angels when He was raised from the dead, not before. Yes, Jesus was also begotten at His creation, so a spirit body was created for him twice, the second body being divine and immortal.
Peter nice point. With deep respect and Christian love I am write the following”:Yehudah Ben Yoseph(Jude) mentions Michael in verse 9 of his book and he never equates him with his brother. Jude calls himself the slave of Jesus[the] Christ and he never equates him with Michael. In such a short book why would he call his brother by two different names and confuse his Jewish audience if in fact there were the same person. Sorry, this just doesn’t add up. There is not one unequivocal statement in the scriptures that says he is Michael the Archangel.
Why in the Apocryphal Book of Enoch does it not say that Michael was the Messiah? It never calls the Son of Man in the book of Enoch the Messiah and this Apocryphal books shows that there is more than one Archangel. So while this book is not inspired it is useful in establishing that the Jews never thought Michael was the Messiah. Why not try trusting Matthew , Luke and now John on the virgin birth which is diametrically opposed to preexistence which is a fog word that does not occur in scripture for Messiah.
Keepha – Thanks. You bring out some great points. Yet, rather than focusing on what the Bible does not say in various verses, I believe the better approach is to examine the scriptures which affirm that Michael is Jesus. However, I will respectfully respond to your logical arguments with my opinion.
You asked the question, “why would he [Jude] call his brother by two different names and confuse his Jewish audience if in fact there were the same person?” I believe that the simple answer is that Jude’s readers already knew that Michael was Jesus in his pre-human existence. To explain that to them again would add nothing to the particular warnings that Jude was alerting the brethren to. Jude stayed focused on his theme. In Jude 14, when he says, “14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, … saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,” he did not need to explain in that verse that the “Lord” was Jesus. His readers knew that. Also, in 1 Thess 4:16, when Paul explains that “… the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel…” he does not need to explain that the “Lord” here is Jesus. His readers already knew that.
The original book of Enoch was written possibly thousands of years before Jesus was born. A clear understanding of Messiah would not have been understood before Pentecost (1 Peter 1:10-12; Eph 3:5; Col 1:26). Many authorities believe that most of book, particularly after the early 18 chapters or so were added and not authentic. So this is a book of great interest and fascination, however one where it would be difficult to draw solid conclusions from.
Even so, let’s compare the Book of Enoch to the Bible.
[Book of Enoch Ch. 10:11]… And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjaza [Satan} and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves”
12] … bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is
[13] for ever and ever is consummated….
2Pe 2:4 (NKJV) “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;”
Jude 6 (NKJV) “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;”
Interestingly, the Bible says that God was responsible for binding or restraining Satan and the Fallen Angels. On the other hand, the book of Enoch seems to credits Michael for this, as God’s agent. To me, this seems similar to the concept that God created the heavens and the earth, but accomplished this through His first creation, the logos (Jesus in His pre-human existence) who is God’s special representative / Word / Logos / Mouth piece.
Isn’t it better to focus on what is said in the scriptures, rather than what is not said? For example, if we know that in various places that Jesus is called a “messenger” (“angel”), then to say that Jesus cannot be God’s chief/top messenger/spokesperson / representative (or archangel) would not necessarily be the case. (see Malachi 3:1; Revelation 20:1 and 1 Thes 4:16.)
Very good explaination Peter K. I believe Jesus is Michael the archangel.
We all need to honestly study the scripture and in good conscience interpret what is taught as best as we can. Hopefully by discussing back and forth we can all learn from each other.
Amen!
Peter, if you think Mal3:1 applies to Jesus, you better do more studying.
Who do you think Malachi 3:1 applies to?
cross refrence Mt 11:10, Mk1:2 and Lk 7:27 😉
Anonymous – Thanks. Yes there is a deeper meaning here, picking up on our discussion as to who the “messenger” refers to in Malachi 3:1.
This passage is quoted in the book of Mark
Mark 1:2-3 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. KJV
The passage is ALSO similar to a passage in the book of Isaiah.
Isaiah 40:3-5 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. KJV
Regarding Malachi chapter 3 we see that there are two different messengers in this verse. One is John the Baptist who prepared the way for the Lord, and the other is the messenger of the Covenant, Jesus (mediator of the New Covenant) who comes to his temple (the Church). Just as John was not God, neither is Jesus.
We see that the Priest was even called the messenger of the Lord and was not considered to be the Lord himself in Malachi 2:7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. KJV
The time frame spoken of in Malachi is speaking about the FUTURE time of the Day of the Lord and the day of judgement.
Malachi 3:3-5 (KJV)
“3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.”
John the Baptist DID prepare the way of Jehovah. Jesus DID prepare the way of Jehovah and We should ALSO prepare the way of Jehovah.
Isa 40: 3, quoted by Matthew refers to the work started by John in preparing the way for God. The prophesy refers fully to work in God’s Kingdom under the reign of the Messiah.
Matthew 3:1-6 “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.” John was the voice crying in the wilderness. He prepared the way for the one who would prepare the way for ALL of us to see the glory of God (in the future.)
Isaiah 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. KJV
This is still an unfulfilled prophecy because all flesh has NOT seen the glory of the LORD. This is something that we look forward to in the future. John began the work, Jesus picked it up and continued it, and we continue it further.
The Watchtower magazine of November 1879 on page 4 stated:
His [Jesus’] position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having ‘all power in heaven and earth.’ Hence it is said, ‘Let all God’s angels worship him;’ [that must include Michael, the chief angel; hence, Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has ‘by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.’
Good question Keepha, I can’t wait to hear the awnser.
Keepha – Thanks for a good point, however let me explain why I disagree.
Jesus is described in several different ways to help us get a broader and more complete portrayal of who He is. For example, Jesus is called the lamb of God, the Bridegroom, Emanuel, the son of man, the good shepherd, etc. We do not have a special verse in every case that describes each one of these names as the son of God. Nor should we conclude that since Michael, who is rarely mentioned in scripture, could not be Jesus since he is not described as the son of God.
The word “angel” means “messenger” and it is the job description frequently applied to the spirits (or spirit beings) who were assigned messenger duties on earth. It makes no sense to me to say that since all the messengers worship Jesus, therefore Jesus cannot be God’s supreme messenger. That would be like saying since all the Democrats in the room applauded President Obama, therefore President Obama must not be a Democrat since he did not applaud himself.
Finally, Jesus is described as an angel/messenger in Malachi 3:1; Revelation 20:1 and 1 Thes 4:16.
“Jesus replies that first there is no marriage in heaven, since immortal beings have no need of procreation…” New International Bible Commentary p.1221. Editor F.F. Bruce. Angels are immortal, so how did Jesus die?
Angels are not immortal and Jesus received immortality after his resurrection. Jesus was addressing resurrection on the earth when replying about marriage. Jews believed in earthly hope. Going to heaven was something brand new to them. I could supply the scriptures but my hands are in suds now as I clean up after my guests. (smile.
Question: Since The Holy Scriptures were originally in Hebrew,
Aramaic and Greek. How did the Bible come down to us in English?
As a young person I find Netflix has good videos on the history of the bible. The printing press made it widespread however, out of the dark age into the industrial revolution.
German, Dutch and other languages were also benefactors of devote men who felt the bible needed to be in the simple language of the people. ie KJV in modern English etc. At this same time others were translating into other languages. Google it to get fine detail. Take care Keepha