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Are Prophetic Date Predicters False Prophets?


Fundamentalist Christians take a hard line on setting dates for the second advent of Christ. Failed date-setters are labeled as “false prophets.” What are the implications of these accusations? Are the fundamentalist Christians consistent in their position?

Dates Predicted by

Martin Luther, John Wesley, Joseph Wolff

 The fathers of Protestant denominations were keenly interested in Christ’s return and attempted to determine its date. For example, Martin Luther predicted Jesus would return in 300 years from his time. This would have placed the return of Christ between 1830 and 1850. [1] Like many of his contemporaries in the latter 1700s, John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist denomination, predicted 1836 for the date of the Second Advent. [2] Certainly, few would consider Luther or Wesley false prophets.

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104 comments to Are Prophetic Date Predicters False Prophets?

  • i am interested in boble students dates as i have been in jws since 1963..now not happy with the way the GB faithfull slave is heading .could somone explain how the date of 1874 is arrived at for christs return also how 1914 fits in to the picture using scripture .also as recent research concludes that jerusalem fell in 586 not 607 as thought .how do the bile students feel about these dates now.also i saw a post on face book where a bible student mentioned 1979 as when the heavenly calling ended.how is this suported in scripture..i at present have no faith in the pyramid method of callculating..i like the bible students approach and chech daily manner .any thoughts ..i need some help here..

    • Richard.Tazzyman

      Hello Ian,How are you.What Area do you come from in the USA,I AM A EX JW from Australia,& had been a Witness since the Mid 1950s,leaving around very early in the 1990s.As far as the heavenly calling goes,nearly all Bible Students accept that the Heavenly calling is still open!1914 ,MOST OF US VIEW AS THE END OF THE GENTILE TIMES,This was when Israel was freed from her Bondage & soon after In 1948,set up her own Independant State.The end of this System ,nobody knows the end,only the heavenly Father.Christ came Invisibly in 1874,his Presence was only noticed by his true church,The Elect! We have much information to share,If you are Interested,please revisit the site & we can discuss more.Richard.Tazzyman(Bible Student)Australia

      • ian j howat

        thaks for reply richard..i do tend to lean toward the bible students understanding of things.i joined jws in 1963 .i woke up to the problems when the GB pushed us onto the internet about 3 years ago .im almost faded out.my jw wife is disabled and i still take her to one meeting a week.i no longer do first call as i just cant recomend an organisation that hides chold aabuse and shunning .i have read crisis of concience and search for christian freedom.i was member of anglican church before jw so now go and take communion when i can .im in no hurry to ” join” any groups.i find many so called christiam groups still peddle the awfull hellfire teaching which i cant stand.its based on ignorance of the various words used for hell.im not sure about the 607 date for jerusalems fall.but im no longer interested in knowing all the answers .im more into jesus and giving him proper honor which jws do not.they now worship the governing body..excuse any typing mistakes im on a mobile and on this webbsite what im typing is not all visible..thanks for reply

  • Rena Cifra Luecking aka Just Stay Sweet and Godd

    “We have not the gift of prophecy..”
    is a conclusive statement of Charles Taze Russel, in the January, 1883 Watchtower Here is the direct quote: “The dark outlook is that we see from the TOWER that another testing is in progress, and the adversary – Satan – presents errors under the guise of “light,” and as his custom (Matt. 4:6) uses Scripture to accomplish his object – wresting it from its proper meaning. We are not surprised at this in one sense, because we have long seen that we are living in the “Evil Day” of which Jesus and apostles and prophets forewarn us, saying “that it will be difficult to stand – and not fall before the attacks of the enemy. (Luke 21:36; Mal. 3:2; Eph. 6:11,14,13.) Paul is very specific, and warns us that we will need the whole armor of God, because the conflict will not be with men (flesh and blood), but with the prince of darkness himself, whose “wiles” or deceptions he carefully mentions. (Eph. 6:11,12.) Thus divinely forewarned of what we might expect in this day, we have been calling attention to the coming storm and dangers for some time, and endeavoring to have all the saints armed with the panoply of God, in order that whatever the test might be, ye might be able to withstand all the wiles and fiery darts of the enemy, and having done all, to stand.
    We have not the gift of prophecy, and could not tell you in what form, nor from what quarter the testing would come, for our adversary, the devil, is sure to bring the test from an unexpected quarter. This has ever been his policy.” Watch Tower Reprints, Volumne One, Page 25

  • Daz

    Hi Peter, I was wondering how you would explain these scriptures, to me this clearly says we cannot not really know for sure when Christ returns:

    “It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7)

    Matthew 24:44-47 & Luke 12:40-44
    “Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

    “Keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

    Warm & loving regards,

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Daz – I do not want to tell you how to think or what to beleive. I can only tell you how I understand these scriptures.

      For Daniel, the meaning of his book was sealed and he could not understand it Daniel 12:4, 8). However, in the end times, “the wise will understand” (Dan 12:10)

      Per the Apostals and early Church, it was not for them to know the “times and seasons.” (Acts 1:7). At the end of the Gospel age, the opposite is true.

      1 Thess 5: (NKJV)
      1 ¶ But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
      2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
      4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

      Now yes, Jesus did come in an hour that no one thought. It was only after Jesus returned in 1874 that the brethren began to realize he was already present.

      Notice how at the time of Jesus return, his followers are watching for him. Then after his return, notice how he has them recline at table and feed them a great feast of truth.

      Luke 12: (NKJV) “35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.”

      The same promise is made to the 7th Church at the time of His Second Presence.

      Rev 3:20 (NKJV) “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”

      What is this food that we are now being fed? My opinion is that it is the “Studies in the Scriptures” series. ONLY there we have the most important doctrine in the Bible taught, “the Ransom for ALL.” And now the book of Daniel has finally been unsealed and understood. It is explained in Volumne 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, “Thy Kingdom Come.”

      We are just starting a phone call in study on this book Wednesday night. Everyone is invited to join us. Check it out by clicking HERE.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, thankyou for your reply. So basically you are talking past tense regarding Jesus’ returned, nobody knew at the time he returned until after it had happened & by looking back at events/signs & scriptual evidence you conclude that Jesus has indeed returned. So I see now that you do not dispute that you knew not the day or the hour but you knew he had returned by what occurred afterward.

        Warm & loving regards,

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Thanks. For the sake of arguement, let us say that Jesus has NOT yet returned, however that He will return later TODAY. Will you know He has arrived? How long will it take you to figure it out? How will you know He is really here? Will unbelievers realize he is here? Will you look up and visibly see Him in the clouds?

          You don’t have to answer all these questions. I am just encouraging you to think about what it is that will make you feel certain He is here once He has arrived.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, thankyou for your reply, I totally see your reasoning & it certainly makes sense. So does 1914 hold any significance in your view apart from the start of the 1st world war? Also may I ask why some bible students beleive the same as you do regarding the return of Christ in 1874 & some still believe he is yet to come?

            Warm & loving regards,

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Daz – To me, the primary significance of the Times of the Gentiles prophecy is explained by Jesus in Luke 21:24 (NKJV) “… Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

              So according to Jesus, the “Times of the Gentiles” is all about the Gentile domination over Jerusalem / Israel. This began when Babylon destroyed the nation and took the people captive and ended in 1914 when World War I began to break up the Gentile domination over Israel. By 1917, as a result of the war, the British Empire issued the Balfour Declaration setting aside land in so called Palestine for the nation of Israel.

              Other significant events in 1914 relate to the breaking up of Nebuchadnezzar’s image (Daniel 2). Between WWI and WW2 the European Empires lost their colonies. As a result of WWI Kings lost their thrones and/or power and Church/State rule ended (This is the so called Divine Right of Kings).

              You asked why some no longer believe Jesus returned in 1874. Daz – I learned a long time ago, not to worry about what other people believe, but rather to worry about what the Bible teaches. Back in 1912, some Bible Students divided over disagreements on the covenants. Schisms will always be a possibility where there is Christian liberty, however I personally believe the Holy Spirit has held the International Bible Students Association together. We have no human central management, administration or authority. Jesus is our head, under Jehovah’s authority.

              I hesitate to give my opinion as to why former Bible Students (over the past 100 years have split away from the movement and rejected the idea that Jesus returned. I think there are reasons other than what the scriptures teach on the subject; however you would have to ask them for their opinion. They would have a different point of view on the reasons than I have. I have made attempts to dialogue on the topic with many of these former Bible Students. It is hard to find those who really want to dig into the scriptures and discuss the differences. I think I do understand the different perspectives they place on scriptures. The link below presents scriptures they would use to prove Jesus has not yet returned, however I present the Bible Student answer as I see it.

              Hope this helps Daz. God bless your studies!

              • Daz

                Hi Peter, once again thankyou for such an informative honest reply. I hope you don’t mind all the questions I am asking as I just want the truth & I too am one that digs. Although I always had reservations about some of what the watchtower oganization taught there is still certain teachings that are seem to get deeply ingrained & it takes time for that to diminish. I commend you for always replying & for the scriptual references you use.
                I will certainly check ot the link you kindly posted.

                Warm & loving regard,

      • Dan

        HI Peter, I think that when someone arrives to the conclusion that Christ had no arrived yet, is missing two important expressions of him regarding his arrival 1) Mathew 24:3-8 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
        4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.+ 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.+
        7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+ and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
        NOW JESUS WELL KNEW WHY THIS ENORMOUS WAR WOULD TAKE PLACE, AND IT WAS BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THESE WORLD WAR WILL HAPPEN BY THE FURY OF SATAN OF BEING HURLED OUT OF HEAVEN AND CONFINED TO THE EARTH NEIGHBORHOOD SO HI GAVE WITH EXTRAORDINARY ACCURACY A SIGN O HIS PRESENCE (THE 1914 WORLD WAR – For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom AND DE 1939 y 1945. SECOND WORLD WAR WAS ONLY WHAT WAS STARTED ON 1914 AND EVIDENTLY DURING HIS PRESENCE YET) THE OTHER POINT INS SEEING AT REVELATION 12:7-8 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail,* nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. AND REVELATION 12:12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea,+ because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

        • Daz

          Hi Dan, I enjoyed reading your view & understanding on this subject. I am still studying this aspect of Jesus’ prophecy but at present I lean towards that he has yet to return, here is why:

          Matthew 24:30 Jesus said,
          “And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
          Matthew 24:27, “For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be”
          Matthew 26:64, “Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, from henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
          Mark 13:26, “And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.”
          Mark 14:62, “Then Jesus said: “I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
          Luke 21:27, “And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”
          1 Thessalonians 4:16, “Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
          Hebrews 9:28, “So also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many, and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.”
          Acts 1:11, “And they said: Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”
          Revelation 1:7, “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him”
          I understand the understanding that he maybe invisable with regards to “coming
          In Acts 1:11 is is described as, “in the same manner” the translation from the original language is literal & means in “the same way.” It doesn’t say every eye will see Him at all at the same time. Why could not Christ Jesus not appear to everyone at the same time? Surely to suggest this is under-estimating the sheer power & capabilities of our heavenly Father Jehovah. Sometimes it’s easy to get caught up in think in a human mind-set, ANYTHING is possible when it comes to Jehovah. An example: Elvis Presley performed a benefit concert back in 1973 called “Aloha From A Hawaii”. This concert was aired & shown in more than 40 nations via satellite. This was the first of it’s kind & never been done before that so many nations saw Elvis in concert all at the same time! My point is, if man can perform such a great feat way back then how more-so is it possible for Jehovah God to create something far far greater & magnificent with regards to the Parousia of Christ Jesus. As I said I am by no means an expert on this subject as I am still studying & learning but this is the conclusion I have come to so far.

          Warm & loving regards,

          • Peter K. (admin)

            Daz – Thanks for some good followup comments to Dan. You bring up some great points, which are discussed on Volumes 2 & 3 and also some here:

            We each have the Christian Liberty to come to our own conclusions and I do not think Jehovah will destroy us if we make a mistake in how we interpret these passages. Whatever mistakes I may have today, Jehovah can correct in the kingdom if not sooner. I think that those moved by the Holy Spirit will have a desire and burning in the belly so to speak to study deeply to understand as best we can.

            I will give you a brief general response to consider as it would take quite a large response to treat each of these passages.

            I agree with you that even though Jesus is an invisible spirit being, He could find a way to reveal Himself to all mankind in some visual manner if He so chooses. We do not want to limit his power. However, the real question is, will He choose to do so. On the surface many Bible passages look like a slam dunk to reveal that clearly Jesus will reveal Himself to all mankind in a very visible and dramatic manner. However, we remember that Jesus answered the disciples that He spoke in parables because it was only for His disciples to understand.

            Matt 13 (NASV) ” 10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”

            So it would be my expectation that a surface reading of Bible passages will not necessarily reveal the true meaning. However, the Holy Spirit can move the Lord’s people through deeper study together to harmonize and understand all the passages.

            Jesus is described as coming like a thief in the night (quietly and unobserved), as in the Days of Noah (people unaware) and as the gradual sunrise at the dawn of a new day (not lightning).

            I will suggest to you that a deep study will reveal that Jesus second presence (parousia) occurs in two phases:
            1) Epiphany (Bright Shining) – Revealed to his followers at the time when Jesus comes to take His bride beginning with the sleeping saint (1 Thess 4:16-17 and for the Harvest to begin.
            2) Apocalypse (Revealment to mankind). Marriage of the bride Has taken place. Jesus comes with all His holy messengers (the bride) to be revealed to the world (Matt 25:31; 2 Thess 1:7), first by rescuing natural Israel from destruction (Ezek 38 & 39)

            HOW DO WE EXPLAIN REV. 1:7?

            Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
            (NKJ) [They will see him through the evidences of his return, beginning at the time of Israel’s deliverance (Eze 38:22,23; 39:6,7,27)]

            Heb 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. (NKJ)

            Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (NKJ)


            John 14:19 A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. (NKJ)

            Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: (NKJ)

            I Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
            (NKJ) [This promise is made to the Christians, not the world.]

            John 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (NKJ) [Since he gave his flesh as the ransom (corresponding) price in place of Adam, he cannot take it back.]


            1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (KJV)

            II Th 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (KJV)

            Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (KJV)

            Rev 19:11-16 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (NKJ)

            The only way to harmonize these four scriptures is to take them symbolically. Otherwise they contradict each other. These scriptures are explained in detail in the Studies in the Scriptures series.

            • Daz

              Hi Peter, I hope you are well, it’s always a pleasure to reply to a post & share my views & what I have learned & come to understand. Thankyou also for your in-depth reply, as usual you make alot of sense with regards to the scriptual evidence you present. As I said I am still learning so my mind is still open to reasoning. Matthew 17:2 says “And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light.” Could this not be an indication that Christ will be in a visible on His return?
              Jesus said, “Look! I am with you all the days until the end of time.” Doesn’t this indicate or imply that Jesus has been & still is invisbly with his disciples/followers?
              2 Thessalonians 2:8 it states the manifestation of his presence, another translation is “the brightness of his coming” which can be found in the New King James Bible. If His return why would it described as “the brightness of his coming” or “manifestation” which is a revealing/revelation, if invisible then surely these scriptual expressions are contadictory? 1 Peter 4:13 says, “On the contrary, go on rejoicing for as much as you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.” Also at 1 Peter 1:6-8 it says, “In this fact you are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, you have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
              Another example of His manifestation is at 2 Timothy 4:1 says, “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom”. Colossians 3:3-4 is interesting as this says, “For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God. When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.” So will these ones not be made as visible revealing, a manifestation, with regards to these ones being glorified with Jesus has yet to happen, well that’s is my understanding of it.

              Warm & loving regards,

              • Peter K. (admin)

                Daz – Thanks for some great scriptures! These scriptures do appear to support your view that Christ will appear in a visible manner when he returns.

                The reason I have a different point of view, is that I am bringing other scriptures into the picture to try to harmonize the topic completely. However, we each may reason in different ways and it is up to each one of us to do the best we can to come to the correct conclusion. In areas where I am mistaken, I do hope I can be open to correction. Our discussion is evidence that brothers and sisters don’t have to agree on everything in order to have loving Christian fellowship with each other.

                To start my way of looking at this, can we agree that Jesus and the bride of Christ when raised from the dead are invisible to the human eye and cannot be seen without some special miraculous effort on their part to reveal themselves? https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/11/11/does-jesus-have-a-body-of-flesh-3/

                2 Peter 3:3-4 (Amplified) says, “3 ¶ To begin with, you must know {and } understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, people who walk after their own fleshly desires 4 And say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.” Continuing with verse 10 (Rotherham) “10 Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,–in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered.”

                Notice that at the time of Jesus return as “a thief” in the night (1 Thess 5:2) that some will claim that “all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.” Since the 20th century till today, can we honestly say that? Israel restored as a nation, Transportation, information, technology, Internet, mobile devices (Daniel 12:1-4). Haven’t we seen the “Heavens” (government) dissolving – destabilizing? No more Divine Right of Kings, Church/State rule, European empires (colonies lost), more governments and more unstable. Also, “the works therein, will be discovered” – Internet, Wiki-leaks, 24 hours news cycle, etc.

                What is causing all these changes about us, which are destabilizing Satan’s kingdom of ignorance and darkness and shedding light on every topic? If this is not being caused by the returned Jesus, then what is causing it?

                Let’s look at your verses.

                Matthew 17:2 says “And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light.” Yes, this vision (Matt 17:9) is an example of how Jesus could choose to manifest himself in glory.

                You said, “2 Thessalonians 2:8 it states the manifestation of his presence, another translation is “the brightness of his coming”?

                Mt 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed <601> (5701); and hid, that shall not be known.
                Lu 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed <601> (5701); neither hid, that shall not be known.
                2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed <601> (5701), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia/presence)

                I think we see this revealing since the late 1800s. The “man of sin” or False Christian denominations (particularly the Papacy) destabilizing with loss of Divine right of kings and empty churches in Europe, etc. The “brightness” or sunrise at dawn (Matt 24:27) gradually increases and Satan’s empire (this world) continues toward destabilization and anarchy.

                1 Pet 1:7 “at the appearing <602> of Jesus Christ” 602 ἀποκάλυψις apokalupsis ap-ok-al’-oop-sis

                The apocalypse is the revelation of Christ’s presence the mankind when the present governments are finally and completely brought down and natural Israel rescued from the enemies from the north (Ezek 38 & 39 and Zech 12:10)

                2 Timothy 4:1 says, “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom”. The first dead judged are the “sleeping saints” at Jesus return followed by the living Saints during the Harvest (1 Thess 4:16-17), then the word of mankind yet to come.

                Colossians 3:3-4 is interesting as this says, “For you died, and your life has been hidden with the Christ in union with God. When the Christ, our life, is made manifest, then you also will be made manifest with him in glory.” Yes, I think that his been going on since the Lord returned and will continue till the bride is complete. This verse makes sense in the context I am stating only when you view the topic as a whole.

                Thanks for some great thoughts. You may not agree with me, but I am glad we had the opportunity to share thoughts.

              • JeffM

                Hi Daz.

                I haven’t been on here in awhile but it was interesting to see this discussion is still going. I had asked a question in July that might be prudent to ask here again.

                Is it possible for Jesus to come for AND with his saints at the same time?


                • Daz

                  Hi Jeff, thankyou for you reply, nice to hear from you. With regards to your question I am not sure exactly if I am reading it right or maybe you have misworded it some-how? I mean no offence but would you mind rephrasing the question? I am sure Peter will have some great scriptual replys to your question though.

                  Warm & loving regards,

                  • Peter K. (admin)


                    As I understand Jeff’s question, It is based on the idea that some scriptures seem to talk about Jesus coming to gather his saints. Other scriptures seem to be talking about Jesus coming back with his saints. Can both events happen at the same time? Or do these two events occur at two different times? Anyone have a thought?

                    • Brettstone

                      My thought has always been, he gathers 1st those asleep in death and they accompany him at the time the remaining ones are gathered.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Brettstone – Thanks. That is certainly agrees with the order in 1 Thess 4:15-17. I believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus returns invisibly – https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2014/07/26/day-of-the-lord-comes-as-a-thief/

                      During the Epiphany phase of Jesus Parousia, the Saints on earth are aware that he is present.

                      Matt 24:45-47 (NKJV) “45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
                      46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
                      47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.”

                      When looking at prophecy, sometimes it is difficult to see exactly how events will play out in the future. However, when a prophecy has been fulfilled already, we are aided by seeing historically how events played out and fit into the prophecy.

                      In Luke 12, Jesus is interpreting / explaining the 1335 days prophecy of Daniel 12. Three key words connect the two passages together. Luke 12:36-37 is the only New Testament passage containing these three key words (“Blessed,” “wait” and “coming”), linking to Daniel 12:12. As a matter of fact, it is also the only NT passage containing two key words (“Blessed” and “wait”). Statistically, what are the odds of a coincidence?

                      Dan 12:12 (NKJV) “Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty–five days.

                      Luke 12: (NKJV) 35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.

                      So Jesus was explaining that at the end of 1335 days, he would return, and feed the servants “meat in due season.”


                      Let’s look at another connection. Two expressions link Luke 12 to Rev 3.

                      Rev 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (note 7th Messenger to Laodicean Church relates to this message – Rev 3:14.)

                      Luke 12: (NKJV) 35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.

                      The explanation is that at the end of the 1335 days (1874), the manner in which the Servants will be fed meat in due season, this through the Faithful Steward (Luke 12:42) who is identified in Rev 3:14 via this connection as the “Seventh Messenger.”

                    • Daz

                      Thanks Peter for re-phasing Jeff’s question.
                      I was of the understanding that Jesus returns with his ressurected chosen/anointed along with the remnant on eartho who are to be beside him ruling in heaven at the time of the gathering of his faithful sheep. But as I said previously I am still studying & learning & gaining new understanding all the time.

                      Warm & loving regards,

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Daz – Thanks. It is nice we can study together and share thoughts.

                    • Daz

                      Peter, it is a wonderful thing to be able to discuss each other’s scriptual views & understanding without any kind of bias or any discriminations. We all believe the same basic bible teachings i.e Jehovah is almighty God, Jesus Christ is the son of God & he is our saviour by authority of Jehovah God, we know we are in the time of the end days etc. I have learned so much from you & others on this site, I hope that in some small way my input has helped someone too, so thankyou!

                      Warm & loving regards,

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Daz – I am happy to see you so enthusiastic about studying the scriptures!

                  • Jeff M

                    No problem. 🙂

                    Lets put it this way. On Jesus last night he told his Disciples he was going to his Father. Then Jesus promised that future of their time he would return to take his saints to where he was going. Jesus said he was going to come FOR his saints.

                    We also know from Scripture that Jesus will return WITH his saints to judge the world.

                    Can these two events happen at the same time?

                    Did you see the new Left Behind movie with Nicholas Cage?

                    Also, Do not confuse 1914 with Jesus coming. The Jehovah’s Witnesses somehow linked the two together decades after Rutherford took office.

                    • Jacqueline

                      Jeff M,the witnesses accept 1914 as the parousia (presence invisibly). They also believe that the coming or arrival is future when he comes to get the remaining ones of the saints. Those already dead has risen(apostles etc). So in that regard Bible Student and Witnesses are on the same page.
                      You know I used to think when a witness that he would return at armageddon with his Saints to judge the world but a more careful look reveals armageddon is not judgement day. It seems that the heavenly host with him ARE NOT engaging in battle at all but are his Flankmen. I have come to realize that “He SPEAKS the word and it is done” And rather than coming to tear down buildings and kill humans, He begans ruling and makes them submit. Those that fight will feel his wrath in death. But later be resurrected to submit and learn the plan of God. Witnesses differ in this view greatly.
                      Am I correct in this? The witnesses confuse armageddon with the 1,000yr reign, although now they admit judgement day is 1,000 yrs.
                      Rev. 19:14,15 “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.15.From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty”.
                      Hope I didn’t deviate from the subject here.

                    • JeffM

                      We as Bible Students do not believe that Jesus Parousia began in 1914. Br. Russell thought that Israel would return at that time (which happened), but also thought everything would complete then.

                      When Rutherford took over and replaced natural Israel with Spiritual Israel the literal fulfillment of the prophecy was taken away. With Israel out of the picture, now there is nothing the WT society can point at to state that the prophecy was fulfilled except for secret invisible signs that only they can see.

                      Yes, the other confusion that was brought in by Rutherford and the society afterwards was confusing Armageddon with judgment on individuals. By the Society claiming that those who are destroyed in Armageddon will go into Second Death, they have lost the beauty of God’s plan for giving opportunity of salvation for all.

                    • Brettstone

                      I’m enjoying this thread. One correction I noticed. The JW’s consider the parable of the sheep and goats to take place at Armageddon. They believe it parallels 1 Thes 1:6-10 and that the goats receive everlasting destruction. This never sat right with me because the parable says the “Sheep go off into everlasting life” and how could that be when they have to face judgement of 1,000 years and after the little season of test (Satan let louse) then receive everlasting life. So I always hated covering this when conducting WatchTower studies, book studies or a bible study because it never sat well with me. I guess because it made no sense and I realized this had to be the mellinial age, not Armegeddon.
                      So it is now taught by the WT that the separation of the sheep and goats takes place during Armegedon and it use to be taught that desperation was taking place during last days by the preaching activity.

      • Christopher Johns

        Peter K
        You stated “Now yes, Jesus did come in an hour that no one thought. It was only after Jesus returned in 1874 that the brethren began to realize he was already present.”

        I’m not so sure about this. From what I understand The Second Adventist’s predicted 1874 and when it didn’t come to fruition they made it “invisible.” Russell also has 1878 predicted and this is the true reason he sold his shop.

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Christopher – Good question. I am not sure where you are getting this quote from me??? Brother Russell and the small group of brethren he met with in 1873 were aware of the prophetic thinking of Paton and Barbour that Jesus would return in 1874, though I am not sure many of them were convinced. I doubt that Brother Russell had any sort of rapture concept in mind as he continued earnestly with his haberdashery business and did not buy for himself a white robe as had some others.

          Luke 12:40 (NASV) “You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.”

          Certainly Jesus statements to his disciples was true since at that time they had no idea of waiting nearly 2,000 years till Jesus return. It was not until that very time (1873-1874) that some Christian’s began to think his return was due. Russell had not yet been publicly preaching this view. It was not until 1877 when he published Barbours book, “The Three Worlds” in which Russel for the first time publicly promoted that idea that Jesus had already returned invisibly in 1874. Hence the great mass of spirit begotten New Creatures at the time only found out about Jesus’ return after the fact.

          • Christopher Johns

            I got that quote from your comment on here from 2014. I don’t do dates. This whole argument “well he wasn’t talking to those in the end.” Or “he didn’t say we wouldn’t ever know” to me is a cop out. I don’t think we would ever know ahead of time. He said for us to watch. If he wasn’t due to return in the apostles days then asking them to watch was pointless. And are we not commanded to watch? If this command to watch is also for us then the statement about not knowing when also applies to us. I don’t see any scripture that says we would know the DATE of his return. “The wise shall understand” doesn’t mean we will know a date. Brother Bob Carnegie has an excellent discourse showing how the Parable of the Wise Virgins pertains to those in the end times and how the moral was that we don’t know the day nor the hour.

            • Peter K. (admin)


              Thanks for your comments. You say “I don’t do dates.” That’s fine. You can decide for yourself. However would you not agree that the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 prophetically through time prophecy brings us to the times of Jesus baptism (AD29) and death (AD33)? So time prophecy is in the Bible right? To be consistent with the Daniel 9 prophecy, a day for a year, would we not then agree with the many protestant reformers and teachers (see book “Prophetic Faith of our Fathers”) that the 1260 days were 1260 years of the historical Papal persecution of the true church? There seemed to be quite a consensus among protestants until the 20th Century when protestants decided to stop protesting.

              You said, ““The wise shall understand” doesn’t mean we will know a date.”

              How do you escape the Daniel 12 context.

              Daniel 12 (NKJV) “7 “… it shall be for a time, times, and half a time (3 1/2 times = 1260 days/years)… 9 the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end… 10 … the wise shall understand… 11 … there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 “Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.”

              So when he says “the wise will understand, the whole context surrounding is about the prophetic time prophecy days of Daniel.

              Notice how in regards to the 1335 days/years of verse 12, Daniel says “blessed is he who waits.” What are we waiting for? Jesus picks up on the words “blessed” and wait” and explains in Luke 12.

              In Luke 12, Jesus is interpreting / explaining the 1335 days prophecy of Daniel 12. Two key words connect the two passages together. Luke 12:36-37 is the only New Testament passage containing these two key words (“Blessed” and “wait”), linking to Daniel 12:12. As a matter of fact, it is also the only NT passage containing two key words (“Blessed” and “wait”). No coincidence.

              Luke 12: (NKJV) 35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 “Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.

              So Jesus was explaining that at the end of 1335 days, he would return, and feed the servants “meat in due season.”

              Chris – Isn’t it clear that the Luke 12 context is at Jesus second presence? That when Jesus returns he would feed his servants on earth special food? How else would you interpret Luke 12:35-37?

              • Christopher Johns

                The Seventy weeks are directly stated. Therefore we can accept it. However, when Jesus said no man knows the day nor the hour we then assert the assumption “well he didn’t say that we wouldn’t ever know.” We connect the 1335 to 1874 because of the word blessed. That’s an assumption. Many will only accept the date because Russell was a messenger and said it. We are to watch. Not calculate. The 1,260 , 1,290, 1335 are directly stated.

                Could Jesus not add 6,000?
                Couldn’t Jesus square the jubilee?
                Couldn’t Jesus take those days and add them?

                Jesus have parables about how man doesn’t know the day nor hour then we assume that because he was speaking to them that he wasn’t speaking to us. The Secihd Adventist’s predicated so many false dates and then when 1874 didn’t happen they assumed it to be invisible.

                • Christopher Johns

                  In addition. So you’re saying that Jesus is kinking his return to 1335 days right out of the other side of his mouth after saying that no man even the son knows the day? The a contradiction.

                  • Peter K. (admin)

                    Chris – Evidently, Jesus would not have known that the great AntiChrist system, the Papacy, would first have received civil authority in 539 AD. Add 1335 years (Dan 12) to get you to 1874.

                    Let me give you another opportunity to answer my question. “Isn’t it clear that the Luke 12 context is at Jesus second presence? That when Jesus returns he would feed his servants on earth special food? How else would you interpret Luke 12:35-37?”

                  • Day and hour says nothing about the year and month when we think about it. Plus, much has changed as in Revelation 4-5 since Christ left earth. But there is no reason to really know, the final global indications and steps to world government 8th King which triggers the Universal King Lion will become very clear for the next decade plus. But obviously 2034 would be a marked year whether the 1260 terminates into it or the 1290 because one does not need to be Einstein or Newton to do the 1914 Genesis 6:3 120 year time limit math.

                    It is going to get very clear as this next world war resolves into 8th King world government and they outlaw global religion, very clear, we will not need to know the day and hour, we will be close enough God willing.

                    • Nubby Tope

                      Hi there!

                      Once again, you’ve made some interesting remarks and I agree with much of what you said. I personally don’t pay much attention to dates as so many times false prophets have said “end is coming in such & such a year” and as I remember the 1975 debacle I just ignore dates now. I see you mentioned 2034? A WT article in 2003 mentioned 1914 and the 120 years of God’s announcement to bring the Flood, and how 120 years since 1914 is getting closer, so without mentioning 2034 the GB said something that made most JWs jump to the conclusion of 2034. Then this Circuit Overseer in North Carolina said his term of 3 years won’t finish because the End will be here before then! Now was he joking or not? If he was serious then that suggests they aren’t sure about 2034 doesn’t it?

                      When I turned on my PC this morning I saw a news headline that Sir Isaac Newton predicted the world ending in 2060 when the second coming of Christ ushers in a new Divine Age! That would be the 1000 years Reign right? I’m more curious about the identity of the 8th King; not dates.

                    • Nubby, there is an open salvation GUARANTEE to those who accept the offer of Revelation 14:6-8. Angels of Christ, with him, complete that “everlasting good news”. All we need to do is look at the state of things today to KNOW God is not holding a final exam on prophecy, as we roll along, things will get very clear to many people in the most basic form of awareness Who is it that shall truly rule this world forevermore? We already know the answer is very simple, God’s purpose is to save life and humans (Matt24:21-22) and Christ will expending more effort saving than he did dying for that is the purpose of what he accomplished at that time. It needs to unfold in terms a child can understand, and it will. (Matt11:25) But there are also deeper things in the prophecy but it is not the basis of salvation. As thy move along to crossing that line in the Revelation 13:1 sand, some people will know what it means. They need to make a global claim to this planet and eevrything in it, then the sovereign issue shall be settled and it is EXACTLY what Charles Russell made clear in very simple terms. The time of rival rule has a time limit. But as in Daniel 4, God shall preserve the “gentile kingdom” but in the King of the “Kingdom of the World”‘s capable hands as Last Adam is also a rebirth of the gentile nations, for that Gen12, 22 promised blessing.

                      Therefore to save many, they will make it clearer and clearer as we step to the finale. But the POSITIVE EVERLASTING GOOD NEWS of Revelation 14:6-7 is the truth, and it shall be far more effective than threats of destruction to help many realize these guys, Jehovah and Jesus, are coming in to save first priority, ANYONE can avail themselves of Rev14:6-7 REALITY when it manifests. As in Rev14:8, BTG will be going down as a means to secure that last “tenth the city” of Revelation 11:13 for many in religion complex are God’s “my people”, we cannot judge anything in reality, as Paul spoke by God at Rom2:12-16, these are the secret things “in the day” according to the GOOD NEWS.

                      Many will figure out the 2034 meaning, that is why the math is easy and clear. We probably will not know for a while if the 1260 or the 1290 merges into that final “Memorial”, it is the final “marriage of the lamb” covenant also open with Rev14:6-8 that Dan9:27 has it last application of that 1260-1290 last week of Genesis 7:4.

                      We stay positive the salvation shall be HUGE. Obviously some of them Matthew 25:31-40 sheep do not even know they are sheep, they ask questions we already know the answer to, they are newbies at that Rev14:6-7 time.

                    • As an early affirmation you can see in the future, it definitely is NOT a “end of the world” coming in the JW over-advanced time frame as per 2Thess2:1-2 premature Christ arrival hype of the “lawless one”. They are selling that LIE to JWs to crash the Org and it is for many crimes (Eze10), it will be Daniel 8:13-14. Right now it is not supposed to be believed just on some one’s speculation, but it is timed and phased “evening” darkness first and “morning” purity and final enlightenment last prior to the 1260 days. As with Russell’s sovereign-seven-times awareness MANY were also working on to see, a timed verification is an affirmation it is what it is, and it gets the “ten virgins” wake, but as you know only 5 have the “oil” and it is the original oil of sovereign proof of who it is who is coming, and the legal right he has. Then more timings will unfold, God will make it clear as day what this is leading to, for those willing to see and accept the reality of the situation, Rev14:6-7 will help them.

                      The JW “end of the world” with a dire global downturn forming, will fail, they are not completing what has been begun, they burnt out and all the lawlessness is no surprise “because of transgression” (Dan8:12) that God has 2Thess2:11-12 allowed it, but His purpose is to get some attention to reality with enough years for many to figure it out too. Like them 2 walls of water across the Red Sea, the 1914-1918 wall is there, they have walked in in pursuit of God’s people everywhere, and that final 1260 days is that final wall of water, they cannot pull out now. Zech2:5

                      “For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.” (Rev1:7-8)

                    • KJV
                      And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (1260+1290_: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (final 1260 day warning ceases by wildbeast world government rising, or risen Rev11:7), and [they place the disgusting thing in final world government 8thKing/King North form), even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

                      He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods. In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings. This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until…

                      [those time periods]

                      …come to an end. It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy [the city].”

                      Daniel 8:14 coming soon, purifies the temple to prepare that final “witness” 1260 days which sovereign warning of God’s Kingdom will lead to what it has been warning of: Christ arrival in the 3.5 death state expiration into the START of the 1290, ceased constant feature and world government marked as well, Dan12:11. The 1290 is global sheep sweep first, conquest at its end. Only “the happy” enter Daniel 12:12 segway to the 1000 year reign and the adoption as children of the “marriage of the lamb” for the “guests” cannot be the Bride, they have to be human, Christ and the Bride are what it is about. That is why Revelation 19:7-9 is prep before Rev19:11-21:

                      Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

                      For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
                      7 Let us rejoice and be glad
                      and give him glory!
                      For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
                      and his bride has made herself ready.
                      8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
                      was given her to wear.”

                      (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

                      9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed (Dan12:12 “happy”)are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

                      BTW, Daniel 12:12 is that “third watch”, 1. 1260, 2. 1290, 3. 1335… of Luke 12, but Christ arrives for sheep securement in the 1290 days as in 1260 complete (Rev11:7-10), 3.5 day “death state” into the 1290, Christ arrival (Rev11:11-12)

                      “Let your loins be girded and YOUR lamps be burning, 36 and you yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to you, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them.

                      38 And if he arrives in the second watch (1290), even if in the third (1335), and finds them thus, [Dan12:12 “happy) happy are they! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. 40 YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Temple BBQ – Do you believe the first 69 weeks (69 weeks X 7 days = 483 prophetic years) of Daniel 9 brings us to Jesus baptism or death on the cross?

                      Do you toss the last week (7 years) into the future from today? Or do you begin the 7 years at 1914?

                    • Zionsherald


                      You said, “When I turned on my PC this morning I saw a news headline that Sir Isaac Newton predicted the world ending in 2060 when the second coming of Christ ushers in a new Divine Age! That would be the 1000 years Reign right? I’m more curious about the identity of the 8th King; not dates.”

                      This is an old story, but one I researched a while ago.

                      It seems the news reporters did not understand Isaac’s notes. There are photos of them on the internet and can be reviewed easly. Isaac wasy predicting the fall of the antichrist system. He simply dated 1260 years from 800 (when Charlemagne granted power, authority, and lands to the Papacy). to 2060.

                    • ZionsHerald

                      The article with the scan is here.


                      The paper is written in English and has several possible dates for the days of Daniel. Regarding the 1260 days Newton stated, “The times, time and a half a time did not commence before the year 800 is ??? the Pope’s Supremacy commenced.”

                      Clearly Newton suggests that the Pope/Papacy is the “Little Horn” of Daniel.

                    • ZionsHerald,

                      All Bible prophecy must converge at the same point of sovereign terminus as far as “gentile” system development recorded in history and current events as they apply to the globalization main global-force to “gather the nations” into world government which is that Har-Magedon “place” as a unique global united system under that 8th King, who must also be King North, King Fierce, of course the Scarlet Wildbeast having globalized with Revelation 13 wildbeast basis into that final global governance not sanctioned by God in human hands but in the hands of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom “NOT from this source”.

                      Thus the Daniel 2 WHOLE “immense image” and the Daniel 7 4th beast are also in complete symbolic meaning of world government. There is Daniel 2 which benchmarked the process, with Daniel 4, 7, 8, 11-12 and Revelation 13 and 17 that is all the sovereign prophecy to analyze, just a few pages really. The rival world government system is described in a number of places from Daniel 2 simple to Daniel 11:27-45;12:1-12 quite complex in comparison along with those others because the contextual and developmental clues are different in all those prophecies as some things repeat in them.

                      For example King North Globalization System will as in Daniel 11:42-43 dominate the nation-state system by control of global wealth, gold and silver (global-historic wealth-basis) and all the desirable things which debt to KN has compromised in the process— all we need is a final Revelation 13:3 sword stroke to bring ALL the nations to their knees so the mega-wealthy KN system can become their “savior” in that mega-global-healing to follow this last global “sword stroke” based crisis.

                      In Revelation 17:8-11 we see the beast will ascend from that abyss of the sword-stroke preparatory phase. And in Revelation 17:12-15 we see the nation-state system will “give their power and authority” to the 8th King and BTG will be deposed to toss in that nice 500 trillion to aid the healing of the “let the national groups regain power” of Isaiah 41. Egypt is dealt a blow, but also the healing as in another prophecy, I think in Ezekiel. That “power and authority” was classically based on welath sovereignty, so when the nation-state goes bankrupt King North 8th King will assume that true ownership global sovereignty— but as in the meaning, and Daniel 11:36-39, the nation-state must participate but under 8th King guidance, as with King Fierce his power is “not by his own power” (Dan8:23-25) but by use of the national systems, the Rev13 beast becomes the scarlet wildbeast as they take control of the world, for real.

                      That MUST complete and rule Rev17:12 symbolic “one hour” as Christ arrives in that one hour (Rev11:11-12; Matt24:29-31) as these “hours” in Revelation are that same hour as the Rev17:12 “one hour” of 8th King World Government: Rev11:13, Rev14:7,15, Rev17:12, Rev18:12,16,17,19.

                      This is why the convergence of global-sovereignty is also a convergence of all sovereign prophecy in Dan2,4,7,8,11,12 Rev13, 17 and by those cross relateable details Rev1:1 can fulfill as well as Rev10:5-7. Another example is all the 1260 days, 3.5 times, 42 month prophecies parallel in Dan7:25, 12:7, Rev11:2-3, Rev12:14 instance this time, Rev13:5, and are a repeating cycle as that 3.5 times 1260 day first witness will have a last witness 1260 days, for 2520 days total with 1914-1918 and the future. The Rev11 “seven times” is 2520 days, the last witness will summarize it all.

                    • ZionsHerald


                      You mentioned something that I have been researching in depth in recent months —

                      You said, “….of course the Scarlet Wildbeast having globalized with Revelation 13 wildbeast basis into that final global governance not sanctioned by God ….”

                      You also said, “….In Revelation 17:8-11 we see the beast will ascend from that abyss of the sword-stroke preparatory phase.”

                      We currently attend a Revelation study on Friday evenings. One thing that we attempt to do is to try to look at each context as if it were something we were seeing for the very first time. When doing this we noticed something that has been missed in both of these Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 contexts. To be sure, regardless of whatever position is taken on these chapters, every expositor and student from various denominations couple these two chapters together because they touch the same time periods, because they have the same phrases, and because they discuss the same exact topics.

                      These chapters of Revelation 13 and 17 are the reason that Br. Russell suggested that there may be a resurgence of power of the Antichrist system which might be the catalyst that takes the last remaining members of the body of Christ (the last of the 144,000) out.

                      These chapters are the reason that as the doctrines of the Watchtower society evolved over the next couple of decades after Bro. Russell’s death. These chapters are the very basis that the writers of the Tower articles began to focus on how the persecution of the WT society was somehow “proof” or “evidence” that they were God’s chosen “channel” over any of the splinter groups of the WT society and over any other denominations. The WT society of the 1920 and 30’s (especially) usage of types, pictures, and parables that suggested that the persecution against the WT society proved they were the only true chosen of God and all others were not.

                      Except they are not. Except they missed something in the context of Revelation 13 that changes the entire scenario. We’ve all missed something. Out of the almost one half million pages we’ve scanned for “Bible Students’ Library” over the last 20-25 years, and nearly 40 commentaries on Revelation from various perspectives of the Brethren, only one book handles an interesting dilemma in the context of Revelation 13.

                      As one reads Revelation 13:1-5 the text describes a beast with 7 heads and ten horns that comes up out of the sea with a deadly wound that is healed already. It isn’t healed at a later point in time. It is already healed as it comes out of the sea. Note carefully that the context clearly reads that AFTER the wound is healed, the beast is given authority for 1260 days.

                      This is how all expositors that believed the Papacy was the Antichrist before the Adventist movement viewed this context. I looked at hundreds of commentators over a several hundred year period and they were all the same…Every one of them saw that the wound was healed BEFORE the 1260 day period, not after it, except the Adventists. It is interesting to note that when the Adventists make the claim about the deadly wound, the claim is made without an explanation of the context.) It was the Adventists who suggested that the French Revolution was the deadly wound that hurt the Papacy and they used this in much the same way that some Bible Students and the Jehovah’s Witnesses use it, that somehow the Antichrist system will rise to power and persecute. This idea has caused this persecution paranoia that prevails with the current Watch Tower society. This of course led to the replacement theology in the WT Society when Rutherford took all the Scriptures that spoke about Israel and applied it to them. His reasoning then was that the persecution against the nation of Israel was symbolic of the persecution of the Jehovah’s Witnesses through this Antichrist system that will have its wound healed only to persecute again.

                      If the wound was healed in 1799 or during the Reformation period, then the period of 1260 days would follow that. In the context of Revelation 13 the wound doesn’t FOLLOW the 1260 day period, it PRECEDES it. The fifth verse says, “and THEN authority was given to it for 1260 days.” As stated above, the Adventists do not explain how the context could read that the 1260 days could PRECEDE the deadly wound. And as stated above, out of the half million pages of Bible Student writings, and almost 40 Bible Student commentaries on Revelation, only one notices the contextual dilemma and attempts to answer it. The New Albany Congregation Bible Student Notes on Revelation suggest that the first five verses are bouncing back and forth in time and this would help to understand that the wound was after the 1260 days rather than before it. The issue I have with this is that there is nothing in the context to suggest this possibility.

                      To make this already very long story short, outside of Revelation 13 and 17, there are no Scriptures at all that would suggest that there would be another rise to power of an Antichrist system at some point in the future. There are types, parables and pictures which could be interpreted this way, except nothing can be proved by types, parables or pictures without a solid contextual and scriptural foundation. This idea all depends on how you interpret WHEN the wound was inflicted and healed in the context of Revelation 13. If there are any other Scriptures that would suggest this that are not types, pictures, or parables I would like to find them as I have not been able to find them in the half million pages of the Bible Students’ Library.

                      This is the very question I took to Europe and asked the various Bible Students of several countries about when I was at our International Convention in August in Poland. I received several interesting views, but many had not noticed this contextual dilemma and those who did had changed their mind about the wound and the possibility of a future second rise of the Antichrist. No one had any other Scriptures they could suggest (outside of types, etc…) that would back the idea that this was possible. An idea with a weak position should be reviewed again, or at least put on a shelf titled, “a possibility” rather than stating it as “fact.”

                    • Peter, I believe that Daniel 9 was a prophecy about Christ as you stated. I also believe God founds very clear defensible and actually simple patterns that have great meaning. Like the seven times Russell was shown by God as many faithful Christians through the times before were working on these things. But a valid one has to come from God.

                      Now with that principle of helping people learn by repeating principles and patterns, as we actually study the Bible’s prophecy areas, we can see the Christ sacrifice that concluded in his 3.5 year ministry as he died, yet kept the covenant open a full seven years, is a very important pattern in Daniel 9. It marked the Christ event beyond doubt and it shows God uses seven for certain spiritual completions of great meaning.

                      Now there may be other patterns on that first master pattern, but the one of the future “week of open salvation” is very important to KNOW that God is keeping the final half of the week AGAIN open for salvation, the salvation of post-Christ arrival in Revelation 14:6-7 (Rev11:11-12) to be completed by the unstoppable Kingdom Angels of Christ with the “everlasting good news” offer to all people, certainly all who can be saved. (Rom2:12-16 as well)

                      I will explain how the coming 1260 days and 1290 days “seven years” are going to be a “week” of Open Salvation Offer in final form, to be exactly marked by key future events like the cessation of the final 1260 day warning after completion and 8th King final “disgusting thing” global placement as world government. Please follow all of this logic because it can be defended and these next points are why.

                      1. Week of Salvation is a Bible Principle Pattern;

                      The principle of a final week of salvation is also shown as Genesis 7:4, to paraphrase, God said in just seven more days I am bringing the deluge. Now, for everything to be completed as far as animal passengers in the preceding command to get them (Gen7:1-3), that seven days had to have been aided by God, it was a miracle to see everything stream to that ark, and ANYONE could have joined the parade. Now that is not the point of how the animals got there, but that it was a week long divine final sign, that principle relates to Daniel 9:27 of the future too, the final literal sheep salvation phase of the future for the Adamic era.

                      2. Christ Secures Global Sheep Before Conquest;

                      When Christ arrives he will save the sheep first, but rather than it be an instant global event, Christ will be in a presence and glory mode as in Matt24:29-31 depending on the circumstances— it is a stealth global-sheep gathering as the “two are in a bed or at the mill and one is taken” implies. Plus, that Matthew 24:29-31 sequence does not result in the end, it results in the global sheep sweep of Matthew 24:31.

                      3. All Sevens Must Complete;

                      To complete all the seven times meanings, we know Christ’s first 3.5 years is completed in that final 3.5 years as the Mighty God with all them angels sweeping in and sweeping up the sheep to their heavenly “in the air” call, or to safe location on Earth, “heaven’s extremity”, and “earth’s extremity” to a completion. And his taking the remainder of the 1290 days, at least the 3.5 years or so, will become a “sign of his presence” as he does that to save sheep prior to total conquest, as in Revelation 14:14-16 before 14:17-20.

                      4. Revelation 11 TWO [1260 Days] Witnesses is 2520 Days “Seven Times” Finale;

                      The future 1260 days is the START of the final week of open salvation— and its eventual cessation after 1260 days completes marks the half of that last week of salvation and the final ceasing of the constant feature in the death of the “two witnesses”. Now for the Revelation 11 “seven times” to complete we have TWO 1260 days periods for a past witness 1 (1914), combined with a future witness 2, as them TWO witnesses. Those TWO 1260 days periods equate to a whole 2520 DAYS, “seven times”.

                      And as Christ spoke of the PLURAL “appointed times of the nations” at Luke 21:24 thus we now know the 2520 years which ended into the start of the first 1260 days in the very 1914 same year the START of the 2520 DAYS began. Revelation 11:2, has a final “trampling” as the “holy city” to complete that final “seven times” as 2520 days of the future, after that final witnessing of Rev11:3 1260 days of the future completes as Revelation 11:7-10— The final warning is deposed by 8th King “ascending” world government, it is the half of the week, it is the constant feature cessation.

                      (The Rev11:7-10 “3.5 day death state” of them two witnesses merges into the start of the 1290 for some brief period, unknown for now, then Rev11:11-12 Christ arrival)
                      And it will lead to what it claimed, the explanation of the final global and spiritual indications of the total Christ arrival.

                      5. 1290 Days is the Final “Half of the Week” of Open Salvation;

                      In Daniel 12:7’s parallel of that 1260 days, or “time, times and half a time”, it concludes with Revelation 11:7, that “dash the power of the holy ones to pieces” is the death state of the two witnesses in that final 1260 days complete. And Dan12:7 1260 expired leads to the Daniel 12:11 1290 days, and THAT WEEK OF SEVEN YEARS, 1260+1290 is ALL: OPEN FOR SALVATION!

                      Now when we read Daniel 9:27:

                      “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.
                      “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation…

                      THAT week is the final 1260 and 1290 days. The ceasing of the gift offering this time is the cessation of the 1260 days into the death of the two witnesses in that last witnessing, ceasing the constant, but allowing all anointed to be gathered in completion. The 8th Kin world government “place the disgusting thing” of Daniel 12:90, wildbeast ascension of Rev11:7-10, Rev17:8-12, is the final global “place the disgusting thing”, and it is what outlaws the second witnessing, it also outlaws global BTG.

                      “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week (1260 days and 1290 days); and at the half of the week (1260 days ceases) he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. (final warning 1260 days deposed, AFTER completion)

                      “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation… (8th King, King North World Government)

                      Thus Christ upon arrival into the same period of 8th King world government completion as the end point of that final 1260 days valid warning and open salvation message offer made clear, Christ can then complete the anointed sheep-sweep first then he takes his remainder of the Daniel 12:11 sweet time to gather the “harvest of the earth” sheep as in Revelation 14:14-16, Matt25:31-40. And as all these sevens complete, 2520 days (as seven times, and the final “week” of salvation) and Christ’s own seven years, it aids awareness in a manner that is progressive, rather than a fake “doomsday” wham bam thank you mam of today’s “operation of error”. It is Revelation 13:3 in reality, the coming “doomsday” heals into 8th King World Government.

                      This is because the global-crisis that defines the “tribulation of those days” coming up, is a sword-stroke clear principle the “crisis” “heals”, instead, into a hopeful final disgusting thing presentation cycle, a “let the national groups regain power” of Isaiah 41— “come close for the judgment”, after in Isa41. Btw, as BTG is deposed after world government she rides completes, after final lying endorsement, Rev11:13 “tenth the [BTG] city” will be sheep as God’s “my people” still stuck in there, swept out to salvation, hence Rev14:6-7 process leads into the Rev14:8 BTG deposed angelic announcement.

                      In addition, the Kingdom of the Son completes in all anointed “meet the Lord in the air” in that 7th plague Christ “air event”, the 8th King completes, all other things complete in prophecy in grand final form, and that completes the “sacred secret of the good news” as God states at Revelation 10:5-7. That is to aid salvation first, then Christ when all is complete, he completes the conquest on the 8th King, assumes the Rev11:15-18 “Kingdom of the World” so the Daniel 4 gentile “kingdom” is preserved for them, as Daniel explained to King Neb. Christ as “Last Adam” is also the basis of all humanity as the process of Matthew 19:28 restoration “re-creation” takes place for humans, animals and all Earth (Rev21; Eze47; Rom8:18-22, etc, etc, etc) through him, “Eternal Father” and the Bride, implied “New Eve”, Eternal Mother— Isaiah 54 is about the Bride of Christ not the God’s “woman”.

                      The truth is the coming salvation will be enormous and aided by the truth God and Christ are friends of all and anyone can choose their Kingdom over the 8th King World Government who is the true enemy here. The final “great news” message is of maximum positivity and guaranteed hope commensurate with the actual magnitude of the power and reality and saving love in Christ’s perfect human atonement sacrifice.

                      Salvation truth is more powerful than doom and gloom to help save people and draw many to salvation in that final week, but as shown, Christ completes his own ministry because humans can’t as in Matthew 10:23, UNTIL the “Son of Man arrives”, because ANGELS of Christ and Christ COMPLETE the global “circuit of the cities of Israel”.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Temple BBQ – Thanks. I have read your treatises. I was looking clarification with simple answers like “Yes the 69 weeks are 483 years bringing us to Jesus. Yes I toss the last week into the future with the first 3 1/2 years beginning in 1914 and the last 3 1/2 years yet future.” This is all I was looking for at this point seen your previous comment.

                      We are glad you have presented your propositions several times on this prophetic days topic. You do not need to continue repeating on this topic, but are welcome to refer us to your blog or website.

                      You can continue with a two way back and forth discussions on this topic where each of you are brief and directly to the point in answering each others questions or rebuttals.

                      My response to your answer briefly stated is the following.
                      1) A chief rule of Bible interpretation is the discipline of CONSISTENCY. Otherwise we can make the Bible say anything we want it to. Because we learn from the foundation prophecy of Daniel 9 that a day represents a year, it would NOT be consistent to change midstream and say that in the case of the other days of Daniel (i.e. 1260, 1335, etc.) that a day NO longer represents a year, but simply a day.
                      2) The conclusion of literal days in the future goes against the united teachings of the protestant reformers in identifying 1260 years for the Papal Antichrist Apostasy and instead embraces the Jesuit Priest Counter Reformation Rebuttal. Does it bother anyone that in the 20th Century Protestants gradually dumped their old view and embraced the Catholic answer?

                    • And as all these sevens complete, 2520 days (as seven times, and the final “week” of salvation) and Christ’s own seven years, it aids awareness in a manner that is progressive, rather than a fake “doomsday” wham bam thank you mam of today’s “operation of error”. It is Revelation 13:3 in reality, the coming “doomsday” heals into 8th King World Government.


                      And as all these sevens complete, 2520 days (as seven times) , [and the final 1260+1290 “week” of salvation], and Christ’s own seven years, it aids awareness in a manner that is progressive, rather than a fake “doomsday” wham bam thank you mam of today’s “operation of error”. It is Revelation 13:3 in reality, the coming “doomsday” heals into 8th King World Government.

                    • ZionsHerald,

                      I am reading your comment carefully and preparing a response I hope can address why we think there are yet some good questions on that 1260 and the healing concurrency or lack thereof as we wait to see, I agree with your concerns there. Thank you.

                    • Zionsherald,

                      What I do know is we have to focus on the future:

                      (Isaiah 43:18-19) 18 “Do not remember the first things (1914-1919), and to the former things do not turn your consideration. 19 Look! I am doing something new. Now it will spring up. you people will know it, will you not? 

                      (Isaiah 42:9) .The first things (1914-1919)—here they have come, but new things (of the future) I am telling out. Before they begin to spring up, I cause you people to hear [them].

                      (Isaiah 48:6-7) You have heard. Behold it all. As for you people, will you not tell [it]? I have made you hear new things from the present time, even THINGS KEPT IN RESERVE, that you have not known. 7 At the present time they must be created, and not from that time, even things that before today you have not heard, that you may not say, ‘Look! I have already known them.’

                      I do not discount anyone’s ideas thanks for your input. I have had course changed by opposers, da letters, and the views of others in various key obstacle area’s since 2011. In the various questions the important patterns emerge, Satan uses error to try to detour focus from the future meaning which has to revisit Charles Russell and the anointed of that time period with others who understood a “great war” that resolves into a League of Nations peace pitch amidst a Kingdom of God emergence AT THE SAME TIME, is no mere coincidence. It is the two who shall meet in the future on the same pattern.

                      JWs, if you look, have the trumpets in reverse order as well, but the principles emerge for the final full fulfillment of the future in 1-7 trumpet order in the 1-7 plague global context of the global crisis to the recovery as in the first WW1-to-world-government-image cycle. THAT CYCLE is what repeats in a “sword stroke to healing PRINCIPLE that they ALWAYS use, as will be covered some below.

                      1. My view is the “sword stroke” is a principle pattern of the “Hegelian Dialectic” “problem-to-solution” formula to mislead peoples’ acceptance of the counterfeit— we need to look in the future for a clear principle of how the global crisis cycle “tribulation of those days” resolves not into “the end”, as Matt24:6 Christ said, but into a marked global “peace and security” as Paul said by God in 1Thess5:1-3.

                      THAT is why Christ said the end does not come with war and global chaos (like what is coming next), it comes with a marked world peace, this time under 8th King complete world government. World Peace is of course, their last lying mantra, during the healing phase or after or whatever— by then it will get clearer and clearer as we step along, thus no need to get sidetracked and paralyzed as if “the end” is sneaking in in that chaos, as in 2Thess2:1-2 it is not.

                      Plus, at the magnitude of this final mega global cycle, we can’t truly gauge the progress of global healing, we do not know how bad the damage will be yet as well. And we do not know when it is in the progress of global “healing” hopefulness they make their grand 8th King World Government presentation.

                      It is a Repeating Principle: The sword stroke is the global “problem” to which the “wildbeast” is the “solution”– they use it multiple times, but not always as the prophecy, but the principle is very important: it is a world-war-to-world-government presentation formula still in progress as global cycles, we have had 3 so far including the deceptive Cold War cycle. The “global problem” crisis scaring everyone is relieved in that it was not “the end”, and in that positive relief and global hopefulness they present their counterfeit “global solution”— they use it so much, they can even be predicted now without prophecy; but, prophecy is of course very helpful. This time it will manifest clear as day, but run the full course so many can be saved by increased solid awareness no matter when they start to look at this, past, now or later.

                      What we do KNOW is, too:

                      2. The crisis resolves into the final affront to God’s Kingdom, there is no “doomsday”, the thing recovers, there is no “end of the world” in a global catastrophe, the thing forms an illegal final globalized sovereignty, 8th King world government, the convergence of all sovereign prophjecy, same as King North, same as King Fierce, same as the Daniel 2 WHOLE “immense image”. All the 8th King as world government. 

                      3. We do know from Rev1:1 and Rev10:5-7, this is the real thing, this time GOD will make it clear to “his people” all over the place and to the anointed, because THIS is the real thing, this is the Christ Mega-Arrival for sheep securement first, conquest last and that will get a global notification of final verifiable completion merit from God, as in Revelation 11:3, there has to be a final 1260 day warning, what context it is we do not know, we MUST PAY ATTENTION the whole way and not be thrown off by any global doom detours, they shall fail, it will heal into the 8th King “one hour” of global rival rule, short, but a final sign.

                      4. We have to watch this unfold, we cannot know everything before it happens in detail, but in concept form we have to as in Revelation 1:1 “KNOW what must shortly take place” BEFORE it happens in general form. Satan is who must use fake premature prophecy to ply his final detours and deceptions. This time it has to be know before, because after 8th King World Government and hindsight, it would be too late, and Satan would cease the final required sealing whose final mission for that affirmation anointed sealing is to carry out that final 1260 days “last witness” of them TWO witnesses..


                      For example of now UN1-2-3 related “sword stroke” problem to solution UN pitch cycles, we can see this as a “problem-to-solution” global cycle formula principle that applies IN PRINCIPLE…

                      1. after WW1 to resolve and present the global League of Nations in 1919, and

                      2. after WW2 for the peace resolution into the UN in 1945, 

                      3. and even after the Cold WW3 cycle’s “nuclear annihilation” scare of a sword-stroke resolved in the dissolution of the USSR and that “New World Order” revisited mode of that 3rd United Nations event in 1990. (See end reference [1]***)

                      The “four square earthly completion” logic is, that UN1-2-3 in those 3 crisis cycles resolving into a wildbeast “image” UN-related presentation leads to UN 4 [in the future], it will be UN1-2-3-4 That is UN 4 of the future, no matter how they brand it, is the WHOLE 8th King WORLD GOVERNMENT [AND] its UN-related “image” “world government executive branch international nucleus”, as the WHOLE THING in the future, that is my speculation. Imo, that is why JWs are derailed as well with various errors and lawless leaders, UN NGO, prophecy cover up, etc— they will not complete the story. 

                      (Side note: BUT, Brother Charles Russell died in 1916, nearly 1917, the IBSA is who that first 1260 days applies to, imo, NOT Jehovah’s witnesses technically. Like the GB likes to do too, they just rode the coat-tails of IBSA out and onward into another clear apostasy, the “weeds” >>remained<< IN THE JW MINISTRY, everyone else is the "scattered sheep" of that periods Zech13:7 "awake O sword" and strike the shepherd, who was to me Charles Russell and the scattering actually becomes useful later. One thing is, we respect the FAITH of Jesus as Revelation 14:12, not some religious label, to God, He does not check the religious-stamp, He checks the faith.)

                      This is why JWs claiming "true religion" is not important—- FAITH, not religion, is what is important to God. All religions as far as corporate board led groups seem to go bad from Israel's time onward, they do not stay in good standing very long, as with JWs and plus, God founds the "faith of Jesus", not some corporate labeled group. The group is "the body of the Christ" which can be scattered anywhere, it is God's business to know, to humans. Sorry for the digression.


                      First off I agree with you, we do NOT know and it is for a good reason, we have to see it unfold to know and by that pay attention— but we should focus on the future final cycle.

                      So, imo the 1260 days is PART of the sword stroke "problem" phase, the last part of it possibly— but the 1260 has to lead to their world government presentation regardless of their actual state of healing— we do not know when though they make that official presentation. Because we do not know when it heals clearly, we do not know if it is prior to the 1260 days, or with it, or at its end— but we know it results in the final 8th King presentation, we know the sword stroke recovers, we know it will get clearer as the finale approaches.

                      Being actually a global mega-crisis, it can take them time to actually heal, and to actually present 8th King world government, and in that time it will get clear what is going on— eventually that it is NOT "the end of the world" gets obvious– like with WW1, Satan orchestrates it to confuse especially the anointed— but in time, it gets clear what is really going on. But because we know the principle of sword-stroke-to-wildbeast-admiration hopefulness and that it is a world-war-to-world-government cycle, we can know the 1260 days will have a final warning parallel activate in it as in Revelation 11:2-3, so that the reality can be made clear at that time.

                      VERY IMPORTANT— There is Help BEFORE the 1260 Days Activates

                      But you are correct the healing and the 1260 days concurrency or not, or whatever, is yet to be seen. What we can know is there is a precursor aid of Daniel 8:13-14 "temple judgment" to activate and run it full course BEFORE the 1260 days. Note that that unknown Daniel 8:14 desolation to purifying timing of 1150 days or 2300 must first be paid attention too and it will desolate JWs as the noted apostasy to gauge it on. THAT is what wakes up the ten virgins, that "temple judgment" coming is what determines the five wise ones. But, it HAS TO BE THE SAME "OIL" "reserved" of the IBSA first Kingdom of God proclamation "lamp light" phase of gentile time termination notice, and the Kingdom it announces.

                      THAT pattern is why the two witnesses are TWO witnessings, IBSA witness 1 1914-1918, and a future one, witness 2 1260 days yet to be determined. THAT 1260+1260 is Rev11's 2520 DAYS as the final "seven times". No matter how JWs spin it, IBSA led to that first warning, it is what it is.

                      Now that 1260 is at the end of the Revelation 8-11 sequence. That Daniel 8:14 temple cleansing is also the "fire of the altar" of Revelation 8, it is at the START of the final cycle, the wake up aid temple judgment. With Revelation 8 "temple judgment" events is the global-context precursor sword stroke global problem phase starting that in time, leads to the 1260 days and the questions we have, we do not know how the 1260 days and healing coincide, we have to wait to find out.

                      BUT, as Revelation 8 first four trumpets of the future final cycle starting prepare the purity for the final 1260 days final warning announcement, and as we SEE that final sword-stroke heal into a final 8th King complete rival sovereign, we will also see how, by that time, the 1260 days finale unfolded with it. We have to wait, we have to make the same 1914 "oil" enlightened announcement of gentile times termination, but, as by that time, God gave a final 1260-1914+1260-future total 2520 DAYS sign for many to catch on during this final cycle.


                      Four 8th King UN Cycles of Sword-Stroke-Principle-to-World Government – 1919, 1945, 1990, Future

                      UN 1. 1919 – Rev13:11-15 (Dan12:11 first fulfillment) as League of Nations after WW1;

                      A. International Bible Students Association (IBSA) explained as prophecy;

                      UN 2. 1945 – Rev17:8-11 as United Nations after WW2;

                      A. Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) explained as prophecy;

                      Unknown and unstated by UN NGO allied Bethel and Jehovah's witnesses:

                      UN 3. 1990 – Daniel 11:31b as United Nations "New World Order" Initiative after WW3 (Cold War) (Dan11:29);

                      A. Covered up by Bethel as UN NGO, not explained as prophecy by any religious group;

                      [We are Here…]

                      UN 4. Future – Daniel 11:45; Daniel 8:25; (Daniel 12:11 last fulfillment) as United Nations and World Government after 4th world tribulation/war cycle to come.

                      A. Not currently explained by Bethel in lieu of a premature "end of the world" deception. (2Thess2:1-2)

                      B. To be explained after the JW temple judgment desolation, purification and removal of the SIGNAL lawless Bethel engineered subversion (2Thess2:1-4; Dan11:30-31) Temple Judgment future of Dan8:11-14=Rev8, Zech3, Mal3:1-5;


                      Btw, Temple "BBQ", my ID, is that Zechariah 3:2 temple cleansing meaning, purified by fire is the meaning. We get a final cleansing soon, it helps the process of understanding clearer and clearer by final holy spirit poured out is in Joel 3.

                    • Peter, I apologize for that last treatise to ZionsHerald, did not see your note and henceforth it will be concise and if necessary a fresh blog page will be linked to as I do not cnp, it is as much for myself as anyone else. Point taken, thank you.


                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Chris – Are you saying that the Daniel prophecies are NOT consistent? That the 70 weeks is a day for a year, but the other time prophecies are literal days in the future, not a day for a year as in Daniel 9? Is that your thought?

                  Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

                  The point is that the text is not saying that nobody will ever know when the Lord returns. The point is nobody will know before he returns. Paton and Barbour expected a visible, not invisible return of Jesus in 1874 and hence when the date past, the presumption was that they were wrong.

                  Does anyone believe that in the kingdom nobody will be able to look back and identify the time when the Lord had returned? Of course no one believes that. These passages are not saying that no one would ever know; rather they are saying that no one would know in advance.

                  The Mark text says that not even the Jesus knows when he would return. Does that mean that when he returns, he won’t realize he’s here? Of course not.

                  If when Christ returns no one will know, what’s the point of watching? The point is so that once he arrives we will be aware of it while the rest of the world is unaware.

                  Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

                  • Ted R (Bible Student)

                    Hi group. Interesting conversation. First of all I want to say that I don’t put a lot of weight on dates, unless it can be backed up by scripture and visible prophetic fulfillment. Jesus told us to watch the fig tree (in scripture this has always represented the nation of Israel). Jesus said when it puts forth leaves we know the end is near. So lets look at visible evidence. Date setters have calculated 1874 as a significant date. Just 3 years later in 1878 the first of the leaves sprang forth, the first Jewish settlement in Israel. Br Russell predicted that 1914 would mark the end of the Gentile times. What happened? Just 3 years later the Balfour declaration opening more doors for the return of the Jews out of exile. This would certainly indicate the end of the Gentile times, as Jews began returning to their homeland. Since then the leaves have kept growing with the establishment of the Jewish State in 1945 and now, just this year, the recognition of Jerusalem as Israels capital.
                    We can sometimes misunderstand what we feel will happen or totally be mistaken with date setting. What is more important is, do we see the prophecies being fulfilled! If the dates line up then I feel there is some credence. These dates line up, but not everything predicted did. Only in context of prophetic fulfillment can we judge the significance of those dates and whether they are accurate.
                    We also see Ezekiel’s prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones being fulfilled by the Nation of Israel, further proving that we truly are in the last days of this system.
                    Anything else surrounding those dates are interpretation. Did Jesus return in 1874? Some would say the return of the Jews is a strong indicator, and I agree. But do we really know for sure? Is a person wrong in not accepting that? Only Jehovah knows!
                    Rather than arguing about dates, lets watch prophecy being fulfilled and rejoice that our deliverance is getting near. We don’t need to be so dogmatic that it causes argument and division! That is what our JW cousins do!

                    • Ted, Israel is a chess piece that will be used by the 8th King System when in world government, building up as it gets there to be the decoy of Isaiah’s prophecy as Christendom and Israel when the Modern Crusade vs. Jihad when they depose Islam in the total conquest of the whole Middle East in the future. In essence, Islam will be the first BTG Department to be closed down.

                      That will fool many people to think the 8th King World Governemnt System is the fulfillment of God’s prophecy. It is not, 1914 is valid not on the erred Jerusalem destruction date of actyally 587, but on the king-designate ascension phase of Nebuchadnezzr and his “seven times” of 70 Years of madness thinking he would depose God’s prophecy, but Cyrus, the symbol of Christ deposed him instead for an initial fulfillment of them seven times. Thus, the “gentile times” MUST be based on actual GENTILE TIMES, that is gentile events and history as when 609-605 was the period of Nebs ascension to mark the real beginning of the gentile trampling.

                      But have no fear, the Jerusalem place of the the intimate place of God is the TEMPLE, destroyed in 586-587 and 70 years ran on it to completion when Zechariah and Haggai were raised up to inform the people of completion certainty— and Zechariah 6:9-15 is the symbol of the coming King Priest coronation of Christ in the future, because the first 1260 days of 1914-1918 was the START of what Christ was referring to in Luke 21:24 that “Jerusalem” “will be trampled until the TIMES of the NATIONS” are fulfilled.

                      That holy city is at Revelation 11:2, and the coming final witnessing of them TWO witnesses is the final “trampling” on a valid ministry of the future, that will complete the seven times in final form as 2520 DAYS, 1260 days witnessing 1 past, 1260 days witnessing 2, future, Rev11:3, Dan7:26, Dan12:7, Rev12:14, Rev13:5 in final, future, form.

                      The stall in religious ministries is because of “ten virgins” slumber in this delay wherein half are not approved in time. Daniel 8:13-14 is the trampling of an apostate anointed Christian ministry which may extend beyond the downfall of the WT, which is a symbol, as apostate as it is, of the early IBSA-related anointed divinely sanctioned ministry now subverted by JWs as in Daniel 8:12, Dan11:32a, in lieu of a UN enemy system 8th King-designate allaince.

                      That 1150 days minimum, 2300 days probable cleansing judgment is like 1914-1918, but this time it comes first to prepare a valid ministry that leads to the final 1260 days in future form. Plus the JW Org judgment events become verifiable on that Daniel 8:14 timing and Daniel 8″26 darkness-to-light-morning phasing by events AND A VERIFIABLE TIMING!— as in 1914-1918, but then in hindsight, this time announced BEFORE it happens, because this time the forecast of the prophecy MUST be known before it occurs, hindsight would be too late.

                      The 8th King would be 666 World Government with no preceding warning of the Kingdom of God and Christ had it been explained after the fact, the last anointed would ALL FAIL, the Temple completion would fail.

                      But, that shall not be the case, hence Revelation 11:3-12. Once again a verifiable timed prophecy will revive the ministry, this time as Daniel 8:14 timing to lead in time to the final 1260 days and the Christ arrival in an active initial 1290 day portion for open salvation “sheep gathering” missions of Revelation 14:6-7, Matt25″31-40, Matt24:31.

                      That last 3.5 years of Christ’s ministry also completes with his human ministry “seven times” as seven years all OPEN FOR SALVATION all the way to the end of the 1290 days. THEN, he deposes the gentile “tree” and becomes the “Last Adam” “sprout” from that dual-banded stump for the “Kingdom of the World” and as God said to Neb in Daniel 4, their “kingdom will be preserved for you” [gentiles], but in perfect human Christ basis of all-recovered-humankind form.

                      Because “the rulerships will” serve the Messianic Kingdom, the “gentile” parts of the Dan7, Eph1 “administration”, though not divine sovereign immortal Kings with Christ King of kings, they will have “price of the earth” responsibilities. THAT is the “kingdom preserved for you” of God’s promise to the gentiles, he does not wipe out the nations, he blesses the nations in time through Christ, he only deposes King North 8th King King Fierce world government as the final meaning in that whole Daniel 2 “immense image” to come after this next global-crisis sword stroke has Rev13:3 healed into said world government and their final “Israel” decoy deceptions.

                  • Christopher Johns

                    Second Adventist’s cake up with 1843. Wrong! 1844 Wrong!! 1874 Wrong! 1878 Wring. But since they couldn’t find their errors they made the fulfillment invisible. You’re saying that Jesus didn’t know the day or the hour yet he said he knew when he would return. That makes no sense. We cannot know the day ahead of time and the 1874 was predicted ahead of time. They fulfillment’s were made invisible because they didn’t come to fruition. Jesus gave parables about not knowing the day or hour yet we put times on them. He told us to watch and that’s with the parable of the wise and foolish virgins was about. They Represent those at the end of the age and they didn’t even know the time and yet we put a date on it. I suggest that you listen to brother Carnegies discourse on it.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Chris – I wish you would try to answer my questions. Even if not, I will respond. Lot’s of wrong dates have been predicted through the centuries. You can’t blame Bro. Russell for everyone else’s wrong predictions. Regarding 1874, 1878 and 1914, actual event began on those dates which verify the time prophecies.

                      1914 is the most criticized, not because the date was wrong, but rather because Bro. Russell mistakenly thought the earthly kingdom to be ushered in shortly. Even though 1914 ended Gentile domination over Israel and ended Church State rule, prophetic events would stretch out over longer time than expected.

                    • Christopher Johns

                      What questions Am I not answering? 1914 didn’t not have ANY expectations fulfilled. Just because a war broke out doesn’t mean it was any prophesy fulfilled. The world has moved on since 1914. All expectations failed. Many hinge so much in that date that they even closed the high calling. But let’s go with 1914. Did Jesus return then? No. Nothing happened in 1874. Nothing happened in 1878. Just because a few Jews moved to Israel doesn’t mean it showing favor restored. As for 1914 Jesus said no one would know the date of his return. So saying that 1914 came true doesn’t mean we know he returned 40 years earlier. Jesus said we wouldn’t know the day. Not that we would know in the end. He gave us SIGNS. Not calculations. Are you saying that Jesus couldn’t add 6,000 years? He helped make the earth and he knew that 6,000 years would be the return then he could easily add up 6,000. He could square a jubilee and add it to the last one observed. He told us to WATCH. Not calculate.

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Chris – Below are the questions I asked you.

                      1.) “Isn’t it clear that the Luke 12 context is at Jesus second presence? That when Jesus returns he would feed his servants on earth special food? How else would you interpret Luke 12:35-37?”

                      2) Are you saying that the Daniel time prophecies are NOT consistent? That the 70 weeks is a day for a year, but the other time prophecies are literal days in the future, not a day for a year as in Daniel 9? Is that your thought?

                      3) To be consistent with the Daniel 9 prophecy, a day for a year, would we not then agree with the many protestant reformers and teachers (see book “Prophetic Faith of our Fathers”) that the 1260 days were 1260 years of the historical Papal persecution of the true church?

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Chris – You are repeating arguments that I already answered, so it is as if you are not thinking about the evidence I presented. As I said, since even Jesus said he did not know the hour at that time, does that mean Jesus would never know when he would return? Of course not. The Bible gives us both the fulfillment of prophetic events and time prophecy to assure us that he is now present.

                      You say nothing happened in 1874. Well in Luke 12:35-37, where Jesus was explaining Daniels 1335 day prophecy (“blessed” and “wait”) which brings us to 1874.

                      Luke 12:42-43 (NKJV) “42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 “Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.”

                      Notice, how Jesus says, “Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.” Well when Jesus returned in 1874, he found Brother Russell “so doing,” that is feeding the household food in due season. As Brother Russell was the most Faithful, he was selected as the Wise and Faithful Steward to dispense the food Jesus was providing.” So the circumstances of 1874 fit well to the Luke account of Jesus selecting a Faithful Steward when he returned. How else would you apply this Chris. Who is the Faithful Steward and to what time frame does it apply? Do you believe Jesus has not yet returned? Do you believe the Faithful Steward is a future person or class? Isn’t the context of Luke 12:35-42 clearly speaking about Jesus feeding his servants at his second presence?

                      What is interesting about 1878 is that Brother Russell in 1877 was already teaching 1878 as the return of Favor to Israel. He got a future date prediction right. In 1878 the Berlin Congress of Nations permitted Jews for the first time to again be able to purchase land in Palestine. Then the first Jewish settlement started and the rest is history. If our returned Lord did not bring Israel back to nationhood, then is the Jewish return to Israel happening organically without God’s intervention?

                    • Christopher Johns

                      Also, there is zero evidence for 606/607 BC.

                    • Ted R. (Bible Student)

                      Hi Chris your right, just because a few Jews returned in 1878 does not indicate a prophetic fulfillment if that was all that happened. But we see that this was just a beginning. As we look at all the other prophecies concerning Israel being fulfilled regarding the restoration of Israel it is hard for me not to take notice. It’s true, the expectations of those time periods mentioned did not take place and are subject to error. I agree with you on that point. That is why I said, I don’t put a lot of stock in date setting. I just thought it interesting that major events regarding the Jewish restoration occurred around some of the dates mentioned. Quite frankly I am more interested in prophetic events being fulfilled than the dates. Dates and expectations can be wrong, the Bible cannot. I lived through the JW 1975 fiasco. What is plain to me is that scripture is being fulfilled and things will happen in Jehovah’s due time. I think even many Bible Students are coming to that conclusion. To me it is more important to put the Scriptures first. If it is not specifically pointed out in Scripture then anything else is at best an educated guess. It is just not worth it to me to argue about such speculations. My one purpose is to serve our Lord now, to the best of my ability, not worry about chronology and what man thinks will happen. Gods purpose will be fulfilled in his due time. Our job is to be ready for whatever happens, whenever it happens by drawing close to Him, our Lord

                    • Christopher Johns

                      1. Jesus said no man knows the day nor the hour. So please show me how Jesus in Luke 12 (which you keep repeating but don’t understand) shows how this is 1874 when Jesus clearly said NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR? Was Jesus using double speak.

                      2. And 3. What makes us think that the days of Daniel have a starting point at 537 AD!! When you google that date the only thing you get is bible student resources and anti-JW material. Also, when searching Adventist’s literature I see zero about 1829.

                      “Although Miller was convinced of his calculations by 1818, he continued to study privately until 1823 to ensure the correctness of his interpretation. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15: “I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,–on or before 1843.”[9] Miller did not, however, begin his public lecturing until the first Sunday in August 1831 in the town of Dresden”

                      Nothing about 1829. Oops.

                      Also, you don’t seem to understand that I’m saying that you’re wrong when you stated in 2014 that we found at after he returned when the Evidence says that the second Adventists predicted the day Ahead of time. So showing that 1799 is by the days of Daniel could correct but that’s nothing about his return which he says NO MAN KNOWS. He wouldn’t instruct us to watch if there was a way to calculate.

                      And no you have not answered my questions. Could not Jesus have added 6000 years and find out when his return would be? Could Jesus not take the 1845 years and parallel them over and find out his return? Could not Jesus take the jubilees and square it and add it to the last one observed and find out when he would return? If Jesus couldn’t do this then neither can we. Simply finding the word “Blessed” is no way allows us to say that’s 1874 was his return (ahead of time by the way).

                      Also, this whole concept of Russell restoring bible truths is incorrect. The teach much of what we do and have taught that since the 1838.

                      Also showing a date for Israel still is avoiding the fact that Jesus said no one would know the day of his return. That’s why he gave his followers signs. Not chronologies.

                      You’re proving the days of Daniels fits other dates is still avoiding the days. You can believe and worship Russell or you can believe Jesus who said himself no one would know. And Russell being the faithful servant is pure speculation. Many think he is that seventh messenger. Russell himself even showed the seven messengers (stars) are composite.

                      Also 607 has no basis in history. No where does it point to 607 unless you count backwards. Read “The Gentiles Times Reconsidered”. Russell counted back from 1914 and came up with 1914. How else would he have come up with that date.

                      So Peter stick to the volumes chronology and I’ll stick to the Bible. Jesus said no one knows and you follow a set of books that’s had so many failed expectations. If you truly believed the volumes then you’d also believe that high calling is closed. Because harvest is for what’s grown. It’s not a time of sowing. (That’s what’s the third volume says).

                      Also, showing the word blessed in two scriptures doesn’t connect them. One is speaking about all of us coming into the 1335 days. The other is about that servant. Two completely different cases. That’s poor bible study.

                      Russell chronology is Riddled with errors. But people are so obsessed with trying to stick to the volumes because they don’t want him to have any errors that they don’t want to see that. For example if we are in the seven day or the millennial age then absolutely everything is going on like he used to. The dead or not raised ancient where these are raised a brides not complete there’s absolutely nothing showing that were in the millennial age other than a second volume of a series.

                    • Peter K. (admin)


                      You and I are friends. We fellowshipped at General Convention together. In the past, you helped us to encourage JWs on our Facebook page. You are welcome to have the Christian liberty to express any sincere belief on this website. However, I am confused. This is a website to help JWs who have been shunned or hurt. Our goal is to help and heal. We don’t force Brother Russell, time prophecy or chronology on anyone. Most visitors here are not interested in that. Why are you drawing us away from our mission to help and encourage both hurting JWs and Ex-JWs?

                      The main message of this FJW Bible Student website is promoting the Ransom for All and the Times of Restitution of All things and the encouragement of suffering JWs and those who desire to pursue a spiritual course.

                      So you are backing me up into a corner. By allowing you the Christian Liberty to express your views, you want to make Bible Student to look like we are worshipping a man and chronology numbers, not Jesus, our Savior. If I do not respond to your challenges, to the public it may appear that Bible Students cannot defend their point of view with scriptures. And by the way, Bible Students have the Christian Liberty to disagree with chronology and Brother Russell, so why are you so angry? I allow you the Christian Liberty to agree with all that and still count you as my brother in Christ.

                      So Christopher, you are my friend and my brother. With your background, you are an ideal brother to help us to help those with a JW background to grow spiritually and to heal. It breaks my heart to see you focusing on attacking our views when we are not forcing anyone to believe Brother Russell or chronology. I am willing to respond kindly and logically to your points with what I believe is scriptural evidence to support my views; because if you have the Christian liberty to attack it, I should have the Christian liberty to defend my beliefs as well. Then each person reading can draw their own conclusions as they are persuaded by scripture.

                      I have to leave for work now, but in the next few days I will kindly respond to your points.

                    • Peter K. (admin)


                      Thanks for sharing your perspective. I see that you offered counter arguments which I did not feel directly answer my three questions. I don’t feel that to continue the discussion would be productive since we are apparently talking over each other. You got the last word. I hope that satisfies you.


                      I just want to clarify that I am glad you all have the Christian liberty to disagree agree with Bible Students. Our beleifs should only come as we are persuaded by scripture and reason. Each one of us can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is up to each one to sincerely study and come to their own honest conclusions, while praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we come to different conclusions, no problem. You have the Christian liberty to believe whatever you want. When I defend Bible Student views with my own scriptural reasons, I am just attempting to have an honest discussion and provide the evidence I see. This does not mean that I feel everyone else must agree with me. The Bible Student way is Christian Liberty and this is powerfully taught in Volume 6 of studies in the scriptures. If we are secure in our beliefs, there is nothing to be afraid of since the scriptures will support the Truth. If we are wrong, then others will have better scriptural reasons and we shall be glad to be corrected.

                      As a consecrated New Creature, I feel it is my obligation to share the major Bible Truth’s I have been convinced of (i.e. a Ransom for ALL, Times of Restitution, blessing of all the families of the earth, etc.). I do not mean to do this in a prideful or arrogant fashion. I am glad that on the FJW website anyone can disagree with us. This is a necessary part of the struggle for Christian liberty and Truth discovery. When Bible Students respond to criticisms of our views, we are not shutting others down. We are simply exercising the same Christian liberty as those who challenge us.

                      Is there another Christian website you can got to and freely disagree with and debate with those running the website? Maybe there is. I am not aware of it, so please let me know.

                      Bible Students have no central governing body. Each Congregation/Ecclesia elects elders annually by raising their hand as was the practice in the early Church. There are a broad range of Bible Students from very liberal to more strict, with most in the middle. Yet even so, we can meet together and fellowship and love each other, in spite of differences on details. We are not held together as an association by fear, but rather by the bonds of love. Bible Students are accustomed to disagree with each other on details. If we are humble, disagreements can challenge us to study more deeply and to keep more objective. Disagreements help us to become more broad minded in our thinking and thereby to grow spiritually and in our patience and love for each other.

                      Proverbs 27:17 “As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.”

                      Ephesians 4:16 (ESV) “from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”

                      We hope for the FJW to be an encouraging and positive resource for all our visitors. We are not trying to recruit other’s to become Bible Students.

                      John 6:44 (ESV) “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

                      1 Corinthians 12:18 (ESV) “But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.”

                      It is God who does the calling. We just do our best to share the message and whether God works through us or others is up to him. We are not worried about numbers or about recruiting as many as we can. God takes care of that and whether his people are with the Bible Students or elsewhere, we trust the Heavenly Father has everything well at hand and under his control. No matter what we think or do, the earthly kingdom will be established and the world of mankind helped and blessed by Christ and whomever he selects as his bride. I hope to be one of those, however whether or not God finds you or I faithful, we can trust that his plans and purposes will be accomplished and all the families of the earth will be blessed.

                      If you encounter a Bible Student or anyone else on a blog or anywhere else on the Internet who disagrees with you please do not be offended. Carefully consider what they said and any scriptural argument they presented. Take your time and think it through. If you feel agitated, it is probably best to drop the matter or wait till you feel more calm and relaxed. Don’t look at this as a debate you must win. If you are of the mind to do so, have a friendly discussion and if you feel the Bible Student is wrong, then present your evidence. If you both disagree, not big deal. Look an any scriptural investigation you do as a blessing to strengthen your understanding of the Bible. On the other hand, perhaps you will have more in common then you thought or both learn from each other.

                      We Bible Students often share views. However, unlike the JW Organization, we have NO power over you, nor do we want it. Our faith should not be arrived at by fear, but rather by study and insight into the scriptures. We Bible Students may get very enthusiastic in expressing our excitement on a scriptural topic. Please take no offense. We do not want to control you. We are simply excited about what we believe. If you feel we have expressed ourselves in a controlling or unfair manner, point that out to us. We are only human and make mistakes like anyone else.

                      I hope we can all continue to build each other up in the Faith once delivered to the Saints.

                    • Chris Johns

                      Yes we did. I like to debate. Jacqueline knows I do. She has to reel me in sometimes. In all fairness I read your comment for 2014 and simply made a observation about how 1874 was predicted ahead of time by the second Adventists. It was you that brought up the days of Daniel and all that other stuff which sparked this whole debate. I was simply stating that 1874 wasn’t an after though but an expectation by the SA.

                    • Ted R. Bible Student

                      Hi Br Peter and Br Chris
                      I enjoyed the debate. Can you imagine this happening on a JW website? Can you even imagining debating this with another JW? You would be labeled an apostate and disfellowshiped immediately! This is what attracts me to the Bible Students. We can disagree. I love you both and hope to be able to fellowship with you again soon. We know one thing for sure, in Gods due time the Kingdom willl be firmly established on earth as in heaven and the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of our lord. At that time we will no longer need to debate. We will finally have received our reward. What a grand time that will be😇

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Br. Ted – We are all looking forward to that time.

                      Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
                      Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
                      Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
                      Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
                      Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
                      Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
                      Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
                      Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
                      Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
                      Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
                      Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
                      Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
                      Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
                      Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
                      (see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
                      Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV

            • just Stay Sweet and Good

              Chris…You an I are in total agreement……Brother Carnigie said it well: “The faithful virgins just kept on doing what they were suppose to be doing……” What he was teaching was Christianity 101 basic stuff. ‘What you did was what your suppose to do…” All this date stuff is just a diversion, away from our real duty to learn how to love one another. I have always noticed that those who get all hung up of these side lines seem to be lacking in their social skills. Their head is so far in the clouds they are no earthly good. They get to be boring. If you are at the end of a dark alley and you saw someone coming toward you would you want them to be a datestomper/pusher or a loving person? My new husband Larry said: “The smarter you are the more boldy your area of weakness presents itself, and we all have them.

              • Christopher Johns.

                Just say sweet and good,
                Yes we are in agreement. When I came out of the Jehovah’s Witnesses I felt like whatever I believed had to be believed by someone else for confirmation. But after listening to Bob Carnegie and realizing that there can be differences of opinion that’s when I started to research things for myself. He makes so much sense in his discourses. A lot of people don’t like Bob Carnegie because he doesn’t believe every single thing pastor Russell says. And that’s ok. I love that Bob isn’t afraid to go against the grain. If people want to believe 1874 then that’s all good. Let them that’s their freedom to do so. I just like to spark things and get a discussion going.

                • Just Stay Sweet and Good

                  Chris…..This “liking to spark things and get a discussion going” is also something we have in common. I never saw it in myself until my boss said: “Rena, I just discovered something about you ‘Your a mover and a shaker'” and then for the first time in my life I accepted it as a fact. It could be genetic and it could be our common background as JW’s. We were taught, when we were young, to be pro active for the kingdom, which of course is a Christian attribute. We were even taught what to say and how to say it in the Theocratic Ministry School. I was taught that, even though I was a woman, I still was a minister of the Gospel. I believed it and acted accordingly. I truly believe we all have a calling that we cannot denie without losing a bit of who we are at heart.

  • Daz

    Hi everyone,
    How is that the Watchtower is adamant that Jesus returned in 1914 yet it also instructs us to stay alert/be on the watch for you don’t know on what day or hour your master will return (Matthew 24:42)indicating that they DON’T actually know, isn’t this a bit of a double sided sword?

    Warm & loving regards,

    • Hello Daz,

      I found your comment on Matthew 24:42 interesting. It reads, “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

      I wanted to say that I find it interesting that the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim 1914 for Jesus’ coming when Charles Taze Russell had never associated Jesus coming with 1914. CTR of course believed this event was 1874, but his main prediction about the Gentile Times was that the end of the Gentile Times would see the end of the Gentile rule over the nation of Israel and its return.

      “We need not here repeat the evidences that the “seventh trump” began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of “The times of the Gentiles,” A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this “Great day,” which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” `Dan. 12:1`.”

      Although this passage you quoted in verse 42 states only that we should be watching for Jesus’ return, it says nothing about whether anyone would know about his return. I find many confuse the coming of Jesus with what is said in verses 32-36.

      “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:32-36)[NASB95]

      These verses refer to the blossoming of the Fig tree, which Pastor Russell interpreted as the return of the literal nation of Israel. No man would know the day or hour in which the nation of Israel would return as a nation.

      Interestingly enough Dr. Henry Grattan Guinness in his books, “Approaching End of the Age”, and “Light for the Last Days” (both written in the 19th century about the same time as CTR) had used the same chronology that Barbour found in Elliott’s Horae Apocalypticae from the 1840s, but dated the 2520 years slightly differently.

      “It was in 1917, of course, that British general Sir Edmund Allenby captured Jerusalem after four hundred years of Ottoman rule. Just months before this historic accomplishment, in June, Allenby was at the Grosvenor Hotel in London when he received a phone call from Sir Henry de beauvoir de Lisle, a major-general in the British army, to congratulate him on his pomootion to commander in chief. Durin gthe conversation, de Lisle made the point of saying, ‘nothing can prevent you being in Jerusalem by 31 December.’ Allenby, surprised by the statement, asked, ‘How do you make that out?’ It was then that de Lisle told the new commander of Dr. Henry Grattan Guinness’s predictions in Light for the Last days. Jerusalem fell on December 9 of that year. Two days later, General Allenby entered Jerusalem, the first Christian commander to control the city in centuries. Though he was an excellent horseman, Allenby chose to dismount as he passed through the ancient city gates, in honor of Jesus Christ, whom Allenby believed was the only rule with the right to ride into the city. Chearly, he had the predictions of Reverand Henry Guinness in mind…. Henry Grattean Guiness, writing nearly sixty years before the event, predicted the miraculous event of 1948 when Israel again became a nation. This remains one of the most prescient works of an author in history.” (Mansfield, Stephen, The Search for God and Guinness, pg 195-196, [2009, 2014].

      Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses have dropped all of the prophetic interperation about Israel and reinterpreted them all to identify as themselves, the very literal fulfilment that CTR also predicted was dropped.

      • Daz

        Hi Jeff, thankyou very much for your reply it was much appreciated & very interesting indeed. I didn’t know of the accounts regarding General Allenby so that is something new that I have learned so thanks for that also. Good use of the scriptures too.

        Warm & loving regards,

    • Peter K. (admin)


      I do not agree with 1914 as the date of Jesus’ return. However I do think He has returned and I do not see “a double sided sword” here. Here’s why.

      Matt 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”

      Many Christians insist that Jesus cannot possibly have returned yet since the verse says no one knows the day or the hour.

      Notice the Mark account:
      Mark 13:32 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

      So Jesus did not know the day and hour of His return. Does mean that when Jesus returns, He will not be aware that He has returned? Of course not. Neither should we think that the watchers would not know that He is present.

      Matt 24:42 (NJKV), “42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.”

      We suggest that what this verse is really saying is that we do not know what hour your Lord will have arrived. Therefore, we should watch so that we can see the signs indicating Jesus is PRESENT.

      This word “COMING” (Strong’s 2064. ercomai) is the same used in verse 30 where Jesus is “coming in the clouds.”

      However, the difference is that in verse 42, has a Strong’s 5736 “Indicative Mood” word meaning is attached. It has the meaning that the action described has occurred or will occur. It can go either way.

      Let’s look at a couple of examples where this word in the “Indicative Mood” does have the thought of having already arrived.

      Mt 3:14 “But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You COME <2064> (5736) to me?”

      Here John is speaking to Jesus who has already arrived, as described by John’s words, “do You come <2064> (5736) to me?”

      Matt 26:36 (NKJV) “Then Jesus CAME <2064> (5736) with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”

      In this example, Jesus had arrived as Gethsemane.

      Consequently, we think that in Matt 24:42, Jesus is telling us to watch so that we can see the signs indicating that Jesus has arrived; that He is PRESENT.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, thankyou so much for your reply, I do understand your reasoning regarding the scriptures pointed out. Is there not still signs yet to occur with regards to the lead up to Christ’s return such as the fall of false religion & the judgement of Jehovah’s house, the recieving of the mark of the beast etc?
        When do you believe that Christ returned?

        Warm & loving regards,

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Before I respond, did you have any specific scripture citations to support the view that before Christ returns, we will see the fall of false religion & the judgement of Jehovah’s house, the recieving of the mark of the beast etc? It would help me to know if there are specific verses you have in mind.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, with regards to the scriptures:

            1 Peter 4:17
            For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

            Revelation 11:18
            Revelation 13:16
            Revelation 14:9
            Revelation 16:19
            Revelation 17 & 18
            Revelation 19:20
            Matthew 24:11

            Warm & loving regards,

      • Victor Field

        Peter k

        The day or the hour, nobody knows.

        What about the season?

        Do you think the Gentile Times (7 Times, 2520 yrs ) are important, in guiding us to this season?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Victor, the day and the hour nobody knows, means that no one will know before he returns. However after he returns, the watchers should be aware that he is president.

          The Gentle Times covers the time of Gentile domination over the nation of Israel, not the time of Jesus return.

          • Victor Field

            Peter k

            I read in one of your comments, you believe Jesus return to have already taken place, how and when did you become aware to this?

            Are you referring to literal/spiritual Israel in Gentile domination?

            • Peter K. (admin)


              You asked how and when did I become aware of the Lord’s Return. As a child, I was aware that the Bible Students I met with believed this. By age 12, I was beginning to study and learn how this was proved by scriptures.

              Victor – Jesus Second Presence is a big topic. However, let me attempt to make this simple. I believe that as a result of Jesus Second Presence we have seen the following gigantic changes on earth:

              1) End of the reign of European Kings and Queens / end of Church State rule (Divine Right of Kings) / Demolishing of European Empires (having lost all their colonies)
              2) Increase in knowledge (radio, television, electronic appliances, air conditioning, microwave ovens, computers, Internet, smart phones, etc)
              3) Increase in travel (trains, automobiles, plains, mass transit, etc.)
              4) Great Trouble on a worldwide scale never before seen (i.e. world wars, worldwide terrorism, mass murders by Stalin, Hitler, etc., etc.)
              5) Jewish people restored to the land of Israel
              6) Book of Daniel unsealed and explained by Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures.

              So Victor, I believe that all of these events are a result of our invisible returned Lord Jesus. To what do you attribute these changes on planet earth? Have these changes been caused by
              a) God?
              b) God & Jesus?
              c) Satan?
              d) A natural evolution of society?
              e) Other: Fill in the blank: _________________________ ?

              So Victor, if all these changes are not being caused as a result of Jesus at his second presence, then to what do you attribute these events?


              Luke 21: (NKJV) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near… 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

              The Times of the Gentiles is (I believe) a period of time starting with the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and ending in 1914. During this period the Gentile powers would dominate and rule natural Israel. This domination began to end in 1914 when the Gentile governments (Church/State rule with Kings and colonies) were demolished. World War I led to the 1917 Balfour Declaration by Great Britain which set aside Palestine (actually Israel) as a homeland for the Jews.

              You can find more on the Gentile Times by CLICKING HERE.

              • Victor Field

                Peter k

                Thankyou for replying to my questions.

                To answer the multiple choice question
                I would attribute the events to C)Satan,+ his Angel followers, Rev 12 being thrown out of heaven (1914) everything we have been taught from this date, to be the disgorged water vrs 15, in setting confusion, especially for the latter day chosen.

                The times of the Gentiles ( I believe) would be taken from a date after the fall of Babylon, and the start of the 2nd build of the Temple being 520 BCE,
                showing…2001… to be the ending of the Gentile period

                • Peter K. (admin)

                  Victor – I have never heard of the Gentile Times ending in 2001. Did you come up with this yourself or from others? Are there events that occurred around the time of 2001 that you feel were a direct result of the Gentile Times ending?

                  • Victor Field

                    Peter k

                    Jesus came alongside me,
                    He gave me this date, along with other information.

                    Beginning from May last year, it is all new to me also, previous to the month of May, my understanding of things was very different to what it is now.

                    • Daz

                      Hi Victor, hope you are well.
                      May I ask, do you mean or are you literally that Jesus spoke to you in person? If so how can this be? (I mean no offence by my response just very interested by what you have said)

                      Warm & loving regards,

                    • Peter K. (admin)

                      Victor – Thanks, if Jesus spoke directly to you then no doubt, whatever he said must be true. Now are you certain it was Jesus speaking to you and not a demon impersonating Jesus?

                      A struggle I have here Victor is that I have communicated with others who have told me they received direct revelation from Jesus. Yet if we could bring you all together in one room to discuss it, the revelations would all contradict each other. So if Jesus truly did reveal this to you, then these other people must have all been deceived by demons. So do you think perhaps they were decieved?

                    • Victor Field

                      In fulfilment with Luke 12:37 not literally (voice)

                      Peter k

                      It sounds like you have had some experience with other peoples claims,I cannot comment on what others have said,previously to you, only on that of my own revelation, therefore
                      You have my email, please feel free to ask me questions and test me out, I would welcome this, as I have observed your thoroughness, in relation to testing out the scriptures

  • thomas

    very well put Jerome, spot on!! brief and to the point,

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Thomas – At the time of Jesus return, do you believe that His followers on earth will be aware that He is present? What scriptural evidence can you present to support your answer?

      • thomas

        a most excellent question Peter K. if you don’t mind I will make this a matter of prayer and thought before replying.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, could these signs not be the lead up to Christ’s return?

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Personally, I think these are signs of Jesus Presence. However, for the sake of arguement, let’s say that I am NOT correct and that it is as you say, these events are all the lead up to Jesus return. Okay. However, we might still want to answer the question first, WHAT IS CAUSING THESE EVENTS TO OCCUR? After we can answer this question, then we can try to establish what the signs indicate – whether He is coming soon or now Present.

  • Any serious student (disciple) of Christ would know the answer to this question without even flinching.

    True disciples of Christ would know what he said at Matthew 24:36, Matthew 24:42 and Acts 1:7 (just to name a few places) concerning such things.

    True disciples of Christ would be obedient to The Most High’s command at Luke 9:35 to “Listen to His Son.”

    Are persons listening to what Christ said in the Scriptures mentioned above or are they listening to religious organizations and their leadership at the top?

    I think it is an insult to The Most High God and His Son when the persons proclaiming to have received prophetic utterances(past and present) from God and Christ are ALL White persons. I know that God does not show favoritism. Doesn’t anyone see anything wrong with any of this?

    First, we have these persons and the religious organizations they found establishing dates that Jesus said was out of their jurisdiction and not knowable by any human, angel or himself. Yet, these religious organizations ignore what Jesus said and press ever forward teaching and building a foundation of false teachings based on such dates.

    Second, to ignore what Jesus says is an actual “opposing” what he said. It is taking an “anti” posture with what Jesus said. This is the “spirit” of opposition to Christs teachings or “spirit of antichrist.”

    The most interesting and curious thing I have observed is that the masses who cling to these false utterances act as if Jesus never said anything about such things. Instead, they are blindly loyal the teachings of the religious organizations they have invested themselves in and made themselves members. They will even defend the teachings of the organization rather than what Christ said concerning dates and times. What power could cast such a shadow over persons?

    Bottom line: It should be a no-brainer. Either one listens to what Christ says or they don’t.

    Jesus said at Matthew 24:42: “… YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.”

    So why are religious organizations teaching THEY KNOW?

    This should not even be a discussion. There are no words or reasoning about the establishment of dates to justify NOT listening to what Christ said.

    Listen to Christ and not to religious organizations who desire persons to listen to them … or else.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Jerome – Before I respond to you, can you verify that you see my comment here and will be looking for my response. Can we have a back and forth discussion on this topic? Hearing from you will let me know if you are really looking to see what others have to say about your comments. Thanks.

      • Daz

        Hi Peter, hope you are well & enjoyed the convention.
        I would be very interested to read your reply to jerome’s points as I feel he has made some very valid ones BUT I am sure that you also will have some valid view points too. After spending alot of time within the Jw organization myself I totally see where Jerome is coming from. Many of it’s members do just follow suit & just automatically trust what they are being told or taught. I guess I was a victim of this at some point too BUT I always asked questions, some that were never really answered to my satisfaction. I always had these little niggling doubts at the back of my mind, it was like I knew something wasn’t quite right with the teachings but just wasn’t quite sure what at that time. I am thankful & I appreciate that the basics were taught to me in a pretty truthful way though.

        Warm & loving regards,

        • Peter K. (admin)

          Daz – Thanks. No body should “just sit and follow suit & just automatically trust what they are being told or taught.” We should find our answers in the Bible. We should allow liberty for people to have differences of opinion. Regarding Jerome’s comments, if you have something specific you want me to reply to, let me know. In general, I would say that I believe we can make the case from scriptures that Jesus invisibly returns with the world not aware of this during a period called the “Harvest” where the anointed see that he has returned. I believe that the signs of Christ’s PRESENCE are the signs and evidence that indicate he is here. I understand that on the surface, this seems like a ridiculous proposition to the natural mind. So we can either agree to disagree and love each other in spite of this or if you would like, we can start pursuing this topic in more detail. The problem with many questions on this website is that people have not read the Studies in the Scriptures to understand the scriptural reasons why Bible Students believe Jesus has been present for so long. This is sort of like someone mastering basic math, then without taking Beginning Algebra, Basic Algebra and Advanced Algebra arguing that a chapter in the Advances Algebra book is clearing wrong. To really understand it a lot of study and dedication to God’s word is needed. This takes time and patience.

          • Daz

            Hi Peter, thanks for your reply, I would very much like to read the study you refer to & meditate on it with use of the scriptures, please would you mind post a link so I can read it.
            Many thanks,

            Warm & loving regards,

            • Peter K. (admin)

              Daz – About Jesus second presence, to get started, check out this video:

              As background material, CLICK HERE to consider that Jesus now has an invisible Heavenly Spirit Divine Body.

              For information about How Jesus second presence is invisible and unseen by the world CLICK HERE.

              Daz – This is sort of the Beginning Algebra Course, so to speak. If you finish this and want more, we can complete the Beginning Algebra Course with more.

              • Daz

                Hi Peter, sorry I have only just noticed your reply to me with the links, thankyou so much, I will definately check them out!

                Warm & loving regards,

              • Daz

                Hi Peter. I watched & listened to the video which you kindly posted the link for. I can see your understanding & reasoning for believing that Jesus returned in 1874 especially regarding the massive growth in technology & knowledge. It was very strange watching & listening to this on the video because I had a discussion with a very close friend who at the time didn’t really believe in God, well I brought up in one of our conversations about the incredable rate in which technology & knowledge has surpassed everyone’s expectations within the last 100 years or so. I mentioned most of what the video said. The conversation was basically about being in the last days & how the signs of the times prove this, I still have indepth conversations with him. Only last week I was explaining the best I could the return of Christ Jesus & what it means for us, I always try & keep it as simple as I can as I don’t want to overload him with too much at once. I am happy to say that he now has a real belief in God, which has brought my much joy, he is such a good hearted guy & a very loyal friend.

    • Well up to Medo-Persia it was all “brown”, 4 eastern world powers, then 4 western 4th as all-nation world government. Even up to Christ and after, “whites” were gentile outsiders, it was not until Europe picked up a torch that any “whites” were involved. So a few whites doing a little gentile-saved-one work now is now that big a deal, and the final prophecy may be any color, who knows, in fact the “body of the Christ” is many colors. If you keep this racial thinking going on you will just become a hater on the other side of the line in that worldly promoted divisionary tactic. Once that sets in it matters not what color you are, it equates to hatred based on superficial non-issues. Go that route and then we would end up in the weedy oven. Reject it, move ahead with no biases.

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