The following article is taken from the book, “Pastor Russell: Messenger of Millennial Hope.” Chapter 8, page 227.
The Pastor a Fraud and False Prophet?
Many of the allegations made against Pastor Russell under this category are sweeping and all inclusive in tone. Rev. Walter Martin and Rev. Norman Klann make no apologies in asserting:
“[There is] vast documentary evidence [that] definitely reveals beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt the faulty character of [Charles Taze Russell—] one of the greatest religious charlatans and frauds ever to masquerade as a minister of the gospel.”
However, upon examination, the “vast documentary evidence” turns out to be essentially the prejudicial views of one newspaper, the Brooklyn Eagle, and the malicious assaults of the Pastor’s arch enemy, the Rev. J. J. Ross of Hamilton, Ontario, as discussed in Chapter 7. The attacks of the Brooklyn Eagle against Pastor Russell stood in sharp contrast to the overwhelming support given by hundreds of newspapers (and their readers) across the country, as demonstrated by carrying his weekly syndicated sermons, detailed accounts of his debates and world tours, and willingness in many areas to circulate his special sermons and tracts as supplements to the Sunday editions. The Rev. J. J. Ross indeed initiated many wild, slanderous charges, but none proved of any substance as we have already noted.
Thus, it is unconscionable for allegations of this magnitude to be made by responsible individuals and particularly by members of the clergy, whose actions and words seem unbefitting of their own calling. Sadly, this inevitably leads us to suspect ulterior motives and a general conspiracy on the part of such to continue in defaming an outstanding messenger of God and doing their utmost to detract from his minisitry.
In refreshing contrast to Martin and Klann’s distorted assessment of Pastor Russell’s character as “faulty” and his role as a gross “religious charlatan and fraud,” the historian M. James Penton provides an entirely different evaluation. He describes the Pastor as:
“Basically honest even when … misguided. In fact, his personal life was generally free from blemish. Furthermore, he was generally an attractive, kindly man, who was completely devoted to the steward ship which he believed to be his … He was sometimes guile less to the point of naiveté … In spite of [some] real shortcomings, in comparing him with [a number of other prominent] nineteenth- and early twentieth-century American religious leaders [who founded new churches and denominations] … Russell’s character fares rather well.”
Turning now to a more focused effort to criticize the Pastor, we note that many of his detractors label him as a false prophet. They base this on Pastor Russell’s interest in Bible prophecy and his pinpointing an actual date for the deliverance of the church and the establishment of God’s long promised Kingdom on earth. For some twenty-five years he had predicted the climax of these events to occur in the year 1914, and unquestionably there was great disappointment when it did not. But is this just cause for labeling him a false prophet? Josh McDowell, popular defender of orthodox Christianity, certainly thinks so:
“The prophecies made by Russell and the Watch tower concerning 1914 totally failed because the Kingdom of God was not established upon the earth … The Watchtower is guilty of false prophecy … [as well as] antibiblical theology, and misrepresentation of the truth.”
This accusation is very troubling, in that it unfairly selects merely the Pastor for such labeling and conveniently overlooks a host of other Godly expositors of the past who also attempted to predict end-time events but failed in their sincere efforts. Historian Leroy Froom points out that at the dawn of the nineteenth century, there was a remark able revival of interest in end-time prophecies of the Bible that spread across the spectrum of church denominations, both in this country and abroad. Many expositors shared the results of their studies and began to project dates for the fulfillment of specific time prophecies and the start of the Millennium and the return of Christ. Such men as Aaron Kinne, a Congregational clergy man; John G. Schmucker, an Evangelical Lutheran pastor; Alexander Campbell, founder of the Disciples Church; and A. L. Crandall, a minister from New York, incorrectly anticipated dates from 1847 to 1868 and beyond. Yet all were respected as scholars of the church and their various contributions lauded.
In our day, there are other examples of end-time prophetic date settings ending in disappointments that can also be cited. Hal Lindsey, author of The Late Great Planet Earth and other best-selling prophetic books, and Collin H. Deal, author of Will Christ Return by 1988?, both predicted the Second Advent would occur in 1988 (though for different reasons); and Harold Camping, director of the Family Radio network, pinpointed the year 1994. Yet despite the failure of their predictions, these were not widely condemned in ecclesiastical circles as being false prophets and generally continued to be held in high esteem.
Regarding the year 1914, there were actually two events that the Pastor expected to take place then—the ending of the “Times of the Gentiles” prophecy, as well as the glorification of the church.
Bible Students are convinced that the outbreak of an unprecedented world war in that year confirmed the first part of this expectation, and that the Gentile lease of power or Divine permission to rule the world had come to a close. A wide range of secular authorities have likewise pinpointed 1914 as a unique year in human history: The Scientific Monthly (July 1951) called it a “turning point” in our day; Barbara Tuchman (in The Guns of August), “one of the great convulsions of history”; the St. Louis Post-Dis patch (Jan. 27, 1980), the start of “a cruel and perhaps terminal illness”; Rowse (in Oxford Historian and Biographer), “the end of an era and the beginning of another”; and Edmond Taylor (in The Fall of Dynasties, quoting Arnold Toynbee), the start of “a twentieth-century ‘Time of Troubles’ … from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged.”
Pastor Russell must be given the credit for anticipating that year as the closing of an old order and the start of the birth pangs that would lead to a new world based on his study of Bible prophecies. From that time forward the Gentile nations were being evicted and would face collapse in the Armageddon struggle to follow. As noted in greater detail earlier, man’s extremity in this troublous period would but lead to God’s open intervention and the full establishment of His long promised Kingdom.
Regarding the second part of his expectation for the year 1914, the Pastor freely admitted his error. In 1916, in the same month in which he passed away, he commented in the Fore words to his Studies in the Scriptures as follows:
“The work of Harvest has progressed and is still progressing—even though at one time we supposed that the Harvest work would have been fully accomplished with the ending of the Times of the Gentiles. That was merely a supposition, which proved to be without warrant, for the thrusting in of the sickle of Truth and the gathering in of the ripe grain has been progressing since October, 1914, as never before.”
“Dealing with subjects so difficult that they are rarely touched by others, it is not to be considered strange if some of the suggestions made … have not been fulfilled with absolute accuracy to the very letter … The Lord over ruled [our mistake] for the blessing of His people. The thought that the Church would all be gathered to glory before October, 1914, certainly did have a very stimulating and sanctifying effect upon thousands, all of whom accordingly can praise the Lord —even for the mistake. Many … [are] thankful … that the culmination of the Church’s hopes was not reached at the time we expected; and that we, as the Lord’s people, have further opportunities of perfecting holiness and of being participators with our Master in the further presentation of His Message to His people.”
It is evident that Pastor Russell was content to let the matter rest in the hands of the Lord. He had given the subject his best judgment and erred in part of his expectation of prophetic fulfillments in 1914. Yet he could see the good that had resulted regard less and therefore could rejoice in the Lord’s providence in over ruling the error. We submit that such thoughtful reflection and the spirit of acquiescence to the will of God that it represents are most commend able and would seem to further demonstrate the inappropriateness of using this incident as the basis for condemning the Pastor as a false prophet.
“Thy Kingdom Come” published by C.T.Russell in 1891 !! page 336 about the Giza Pyramid:
“We find it to be 3416 !! inches , symbolizing 3416 years from the above date , B.C.1542.
This calculation shows A.D.1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble;
for 1542 B.C. plus 1874 A.D. equals 3416 years.”
“Thy Kingdom Come” published by C.T.Russell in 1915 !! page 342 about the Giza Pyramid:
“We find it to be 3457 !! inches , symbolizing 3457 years from the above date , B.C.1542.
This calculation shows A.D.1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble;
for 1542 B.C. plus 1915 A.D. equals 3457 years.”
An Ascending Passage inside the Giza Pyramid growed from 3416 inches to 3457 inches ?
In both books the source reference is the same ! cheers from a composer of chess problems.
Hi Lutz – Thanks for your comments.
Actually the honest correction was made long before 1914.
https://ransomforall.blogspot.com/2023/03/pyramid-claims.html
“The change on page 342 of the book, Thy Kingdom Come, however, was noted in the ZWT of September 15, 1909 [note that this was before, not after, 1914], and the following brief explanatory statement was made: Page 342, lines 17, 18, 3416 inches, changed to, 3457 inches to agree with later accurate measurement, would seem to mark 1915. The former figures were “paper measure” from Piazzi Smith’s illustration supposed to have been drawn to a scale, but found inaccurate.”
You can find a large commentary on your question at the link above. So would you agree this is no problem at all or if so, please explain?
Hallo Peter ,
C.T.Russell’s opinion BEFORE 1874 was that THIS year would become IMPORTANT for mankind , because this year would appearing INDIRECTLY in the bible . Later he wanted to CORROBORATE this opinion with the 3416 inches inside the Giza Pyramid . Errors can happen . Later his opinion about the importance of 1874 changed and 1914 became more important . Error can happen . But what had he learned ? I would say not much , because again he CORROBORATED this new opinion with 3457 inches inside the same Pyramid . This wasn’t only an error this was DISINGENUOUS like his “LATER ACCURATE MEASUREMENT”?? (ZWT of Sept.15,1909) cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – Thanks for sharing more of your thoughts. I really appreciate that you are interested in having a conversation.
Before I respond, please consider that Brother Russell was the opposite of JF Rutherford and the JW Organization. C.T. Russell inspired a decentralized association of Christian liberty loving Bible Student congregations around the world. J.F. Rutherford created a new religion – a centrally controlled organization with consequences for disobedience. C.T. Russell exercised no centralized authority and control over Bible Student congregations in his day and was opposed to such controls. With that context in mind, I will respond to your thoughts.
In my view, it is okay for you to disagree with the Bible Chronology and Time Prophecies proposed by C.T. Russell, in this case in the measurements of the Great Pyramid. You have the Christian liberty to do so. Please consider that the Great Pyramid was not a big topic with C.T. Russell and is infrequently mentioned it in the Watchtower publications of his time. So is this really the best test upon which to judge him?
Is your standard toward C.T. Russell the expectation of perfection? That he is not allowed to make a mistake? That if he finds a mistake (i.e. Piazzi Smith’s measurements) and honestly corrects the error (with more accurate measurements from John Edgar) that this is clear evidence he is “disingenuous?” Has your investigation led you to believe that the corrected measurement is wrong? If so, than what is the correct measurement and what is your source?
You stated, “This wasn’t only an error this was DISINGENUOUS like his “LATER ACCURATE MEASUREMENT”?? (ZWT of Sept.15,1909)” Lutz, in my opinion you are being pretty judgmental of C.T. Russell’s motives? Can you read his heart? Why not just assume it was an honest mistake that was corrected when more accurate measurements were made available to him?
I know you are well familiar with Jesus words in Matthew 7:1-2 (ESV) “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”
Don’t take this as a criticism. I am just encouraging you to think through your feelings more carefully. If you disagree with C.T. Russell about pyramid inches, that is your Christian liberty to do so. However, do you really feel you have sufficient evidence to judge his character?
Hallo Peter ,
the SOURCES of the following both books above :
——————————————————————————
“Thy Kingdom Come” published by C.T.Russell in 1891 !! page 336 about the Giza Pyramid:
“We find it to be 3416 !! inches , symbolizing 3416 years from the above date , B.C.1542.
This calculation shows A.D.1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble;
for 1542 B.C. plus 1874 A.D. equals 3416 years.”
“Thy Kingdom Come” published by C.T.Russell in 1915 !! page 342 about the Giza Pyramid:
“We find it to be 3457 !! inches , symbolizing 3457 years from the above date , B.C.1542.
This calculation shows A.D.1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble;
for 1542 B.C. plus 1915 A.D. equals 3457 years.”
——————————————————————————
are the SAME !!! and there isn’t given any new source ( for example “The Great Pyramid Passages and Chambers” by John and Morton Edgar – published 1913 in Glasgow ) in the second above book of 1915 . WHY ?
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – I appreciate hearing from you again. Thanks for clarifying that you are not arguing for what the actual pyramid inches are. Your pointing out that C.T. Russell contradicted himself and changed the number of inches to 3457 in a later edition. I think you are implying that C.T. Russell was dishonest in not explaining that the number had changed from 3416 inches to 3457 inches and what the source or reason for the change was.
Many writers in new additions add corrections and updated information. We don’t generally assume they are being deceptive, but rather that they are improving the supporting detail of the book. We can only speculate why he did not explain that there had been a change in the new additions.
So why did he not explain that a change had been made. Here are some possibilities:
1) Is C.T. Russell is a liar and deceiver? In my opinion, this is not consistent with everything I know about his honest character. Lutz, I assume you are an honest person. If people opposed to your kept accusing you of being a liar on circumstantial evidence, wouldn’t many people start to believe the lies? Is this how we want to judge people?
2) Perhaps he felt that it would only confuse people to add in that explanation to an already very detailed chapter?
3) The former figures were “paper measure” from Piazzi Smith’s illustration supposed to have been drawn to a scale, but found inaccurate. Perhaps Brother Russel did not want to damage the reputation of a good man – Piazzi Smith – for his mistaken measurement. This would be my guess, but I don’t really know.
Although revisionist history has changed the view of Brother Russell, he was highly loved and regarded and followed worldwide. In his day, he had more sermons and articles published in newspapers worldwide than all other pastors combined. The Photodrama of Creation was shown in hundreds of cities world wide. He was loved and trusted in his day, but his character has been unfairly attack since. Is correcting the number of pyramid inches really the basis upon which to condemn his character and argue he cannot be trusted. Do we hold others we trust today to the same standard? One mistake and you are the devil?
An explanation is in the link I provided earlier which I would encourage you to read. In the Great Pyramid book written by John and Morton Edgar, they explained that after taking more accurate measurements themselves, they conveyed this information to Brother Russell and hence we have the reason why the correction was made. They go on to write, “Yet, strange to say, instead of abandoning the time-measurements, we found that the true length of the passage established these time-measurements all the more thoroughly. Both dates, 1874 and 1914, are now seen to be indicated by the end of this Descending Passage. This indication is very exact and convincing, and goes far to establish our faith in the Great Pyramid as indeed a building of God.”
Hallo Peter ,
in the book ( “The Great Pyramid Passages and Chambers” by John and Morton Edgar – published 1913 in Glasgow ) you can’t find the NEW measurement of “3457 inches” by Russell . Instead of this you find in the book above a NEW measurement at ANOTHER PLACE inside the pyramid with following NEW calculation with “68 inches” at page 80 of the book above :
1846 + “68 inchess” = 1914
In THIS ! way they wanted to improve their Bible-Chronology about 1914.
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz –
You can find Great Pyramid Passages here:
https://biblestudentarchives.com/documents/PyramidPassages.pdf
See pages xxxiv and xxxv for the quotes about 3457.
See Appendix 3 for discussion on 1846 + 68 inches = 1914
Once you are in the PDF book, you can also find this information by pressing the “ctrl” key and “F” then typing the text to find.
Find the chapter on the Great Pyramid in Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures here: http://www.mostholyfaith.com/Beta/bible/volumes/C10.asp
There is no contradiction here. By counting pyramid inches from the entrance to the Great Pyramid (Fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden), we can count pyramid inches as years to arrive at the date of the Law Covenant (at the granite plug of the Ascending passage up to the date of the death of and resurrection of Jesus at the Well Shaft. Or we can to down the Descending Passage to arrive at dates leading to 1914 AD. 1846 is one of the dates marked going down the Descending Passage way. Other dates can be identified as well. Coincidence?
So Lutz, there is no problem as far as I can see in any contradiction in these two works on the Great Pyramid. It is remarkable that various historical dates can be identified. These dates cannot be arrived at by coincidence because you can only count pyramid inches up and down the passages ways one way, just as if you were using a tape measurer to measure the length of a hallway in your home. You can only arrive at one correct measurement. The measurements and dates are statistically impossible to be arrived at by coincidence. The only other possibility is that the measurements in pyramid inches by the Edgar Brothers is a lie and a deception. Is that your point of view? That they are liars and deceivers? I have never heard of anyone trying to make that case. However, if you want to take that point of view, then please tell me, what source can you point me to in order to find the true measurements of the Great Pyramid?
Lutz, are you a man of faith in the Bible? If not, no need to read further. “In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt.” Isa. 19:19,20
Isaiah 19:19-20 (NET) “At that time there will be an altar for the Lord in the middle of the land of Egypt, as well as a sacred pillar dedicated to the Lord at its border. 20 It will become a visual reminder in the land of Egypt of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.”
The Great Pyramid is in the exact geographical center of Egypt as well as exactly on the clearly marked boarder between upper and lower Egypt. Also, the Great Pyramid is located in the geographical center of the land surface of the world – including North and South America, unknown for centuries after the location and construction of the Great Pyramid. It is an alter in that it marks the sacrifice of Jesus at the well shaft and a pillar in that it is a monument to God’ plan.
Is the Isaiah scripture identifying the Great Pyramid just a coincidence?
Lutz – You are welcome to disagree with these conclusions. You should come to your own conclusions. However, there are no deceptions or contradictions here. Russell and the Edgar brothers were honest and honorable men.
Hallo Peter ,
in the book of Edgar above you can read following about the changing from 3416 inches to 3457 inches inside the book of Russell : “We measured this passage in 1909 , having first removed from it all obstructing debris , we found that neither the earlier publishrd length of 3416 inches , nor the later published length of 3457 inces , was correct . The true length was found to be more nearly 3385 inches” In reality Russell was interested to find out an important time for the mankind inside the pyramid , because he believed that our heavenly father would use the pyramid for future occurences in the history of mankind . In the day of Jesus ( about 2000 years AFTER the construction of this pyramid all stones were in similar position ) he gave the answer to this important time for mankind to asking people with the famous words : “Concerning that day and hour NOBODY knows , neither the angels of the heavens nor the son , but ONLY the father.” Computational feats aren’t important in our live , but the TWO commandments on which is hanging the “whole law and the prophets” .
Hi again Lutz – Let’s be fair here. Reading on again makes the findings even more remarkable. Below is continuing from where you left off on pages xxxiv and xxxv.
We, of course, immediately communicated with Brother Russell the true length of the Descending Passage. At first sight it appeared as if we would require to abandon the time-measurements of this lower part of the Pyramid’s passage system, the true length being so different from what we had previously understood it to be. Yet, strange to say, instead of abandoning the time-measurements, we found that the true length of the passage established these time-measurements all, the more thoroughly. Both dates, 1874 and 1914, are now seen to be indicated by the end of this Descending Passage. This indication is very exact and convincing, and goes far to establish our faith in the Great Pyramid as indeed a building of God.
Some may naturally wonder how, with the length of the Descending Passage being 3385, and neither 3416 or 3457 inches, it is possible for the dates at the Subterranean Chamber still to be found correct. The explanation is, after all, quite simple, namely—the date marked by the upper end of the First Descending Passage (the starting-point for this particular time-measurement—See pages 341-342 in Vol. III, Studies”) is not 2 B.C., the date of our Lord’s birth, but more properly 33 A.D., the date of his death and resurrection. Also, the true length of the First Ascending Passage is more nearly 1543½ “Pyramid” inches, and not 1542 as stated in Vol. III “Studies.” This makes all the difference in the time-measurements;—the terminal of the floor-line of the small Horizontal Passage in the “Pit,” or Subterranean Chamber, is now found to mark the date 1874 (Brother Russell’s first interpretation was correct here, even though he did not base it upon the correct measurements). The 1914 date is marked by that particular point that is directly, vertically, below the terminal of the Small Horizontal Passage, and in line with the produced floor line of the inclined portion of the Descending Passage. That is, if the
Descending Passage had continued directly downward at the same steep angle to the “Pit,” instead of ending in the Small Horizontal Passage, the termination of this downward measurement would mark the date 1914 A.D. The point where the Small Horizontal Passage branches off from the inclined floor of the Descending Passage, marks the date 1521 A.D., when Martin Luther began the great Protestant Reformation movement. The north wall of the small “Recess” in the west wall of the Small Horizontal Passage marks the date 1789 A.D., the year of the French Revolution. The upper, south, end-wall of the Grand Gallery marks 1914 A.D., just as does the terminal of the produced floor-line of the Descending Passage. These two points are in vertical alignment with each other.
Hi again Lutz – This is in further reply to your comment on Nov 7 (not Nov 8). Thanks for your reference to Matt 22 (NKJV) “37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Certainly these types of scriptures are more beneficial to discuss than pyramid inches. Perhaps you have some scripture verses or topics you would like to share with us?
In any case, it seems that in Daniel 12:7-12 that the statement “the wise will understand” is in reference to the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. As a matter of fact, in Luke 12, I believe that Jesus applies the 1335 days to the time of is return. Since time prophecy establishes the time of Jesus’ first advent (Daniel 9 => 70 weeks prophecy = 490 days with a day for a year = 490 years), it should not surprise us if even more time prophecies are found in the Bible as one of the ways to establish the time when Jesus’ had invisibly returned.
The reformers tied the 1260 days (3 1/2 times) to 1260 YEARS of the Antichrist system (the Papacy) persecuting the true saints largely during the Dark Ages. This is well documented in the famous books published in the 1800s by the Adventists called, “The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers.”
Matthew 24:36 (NASV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”
If you believe that after Jesus returns that Matt 24 36 shows that there therefore must be no Saints on earth recognizing his return after his return, then would you also conclude that after Jesus returns that neither the angels nor Jesus himself would be aware that he had returned?
If Jesus has already returned, we find confirmation in the Daniel 12 signs of Michael (meaning “who is as God” = Jesus) standing up at the time of the end? It seems we have been seeing these signs for well over 100 years.
* Knowledge increased
* Travel increased
* Time of trouble such as never was World Wars and conflicts on unprecedented historical scales
* Israel delivered (in process – returned to land and a nation again)_
* Book of Daniel unsealed = Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures. If not, then when and how unsealed? Or do you believe the meaning of the book is yet to be revealed in the future?
In 1878 that Israel established their first Jewish settlement – Petah Tikva?
Interestingly, Brother Russel is the only one we know of in history that actually predicted from Bible time prophecy two future dates and got them correct – 1878 and 1914. His mistake in 1914, was not the date, but rather in expecting things to wrap up soon after that date.
Hallo Peter
the historic facts are that in his published works russell announced the kingdom of Christ would begin in 1914 ( some years before he announced the year 1874 ) and this with the help of computational feats with the bible and the great pyramide in Gizeh , but he knows the following words of Jesus :
“Concerning that day and hour NOBODY knows , neither the angels of the heavens nor the son , but ONLY the father.”
( two times a false prophet ? )
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – This in in reply to your more recent comment on the November 8. I have been an accountant for over 40 years. My career is reconciling numbers. The pyramid measurements were finally locked in by the Edgar brothers. Once locked in, there is no room to change the count of distances in pyramid inches from one point to another. The measurements are not forced to agree with predetermined dates. That is why, where I quoted from his book, John Edgar at first though the corrected measurements would destroy the Great Pyramid as a support to Bible chronology and time prophecy. However, upon further examination he found the change strengthened the support for these dates and clearly explained how.
Lutz – How can you prove your position correct? You must demonstrate that the Edgar brother measurements were wrong by providing a credible source indicating what the correct measurements are. You have not been able to do this. For you to continue to argue that they were manipulating the numbers to make it come out to the correct dates is no argument at all unless you can explain to us what the specific errors are and provide a more accurate explanation which arrives at different dates.
You said, “the historic facts are that in his published works russell announced the kingdom of Christ would begin in 1914 (some years before he announced the year 1874)”
You are not correct. Russell never taught that the kingdom would begin in 1874. After the date 1874 had passed, Russell taught the Jesus had invisibly returned in 1874. The whole movement agreed. Probably you will continue to identify this as a false teaching even though you have never studied volumes 2 & 3 of Studies in the Scripture to understand what this is all about. Am I wrong? Likely you have read misapplied quotes from those attacking C.T. Russell. Is that correct?
In a 1909 Watchtower, page 371, Pastor Russell said, “While our faith and hopes would be equally clear and logical whether this age ends in October, 1914, or a century later, nevertheless our expectation that “Gentile Times” will conclude October, 1914, undoubtedly has a stimulating effect upon our hearts and influences all of life’s interests and helps to “wean” us from earthly joys and ambitions and to set our affections on things above!”
Notice that Pastor Russell did not say that “this age” would end in 1914, but that he expected the Times of the Gentiles to end in 1914. He indicated our faith would be equally clear even if this Gospel Age continued another hundred years.
It is true that in 1914 Brother Russell expected too much to happen too quickly. Students of prophecy at Jesus first advent, made the same mistake. At the time Jesus was born, people were in expectation of the Messiah (Luke 3:15.) They expected the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, pointed to a Messiah that would immediately conquer the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom in their time (Luke 24:21). Before Jesus ascension, the Apostles asked, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6) They were wrong to expect more than the prophecy had promised. Nevertheless, the Seventy Weeks prophecy was correct and did point to Messiah, just as the 1914 prophecy was correct.
Pastor Russell “owned” the Times of the Gentiles concept which identified 1914 as the end of the Times of the Gentiles. In other words, he is the one who taught, promoted and spread the concept worldwide. His reputation would have been severely damaged had nothing happened in 1914. As it turned out:
1) Church/State rule ended
2) European Kings were dethroned forever
3) The European Empires began to lose their colonies
4) WWI lead to the 1917 Balfour Declaration which set aside Palestine as a homeland for the Jews.
Is this all a coincidence? Did C.T. Russell just get lucky like the man at the roulette wheel who picked the lucky number (exact date)?
No other man in history except for Brother Russell has ever been able to preach two future dates (1878 end of Jewish double and 1914 end of Gentile times) based on Bible time prophecy and get it right. For getting it right, he is called a false prophet. Go figure.
Find more on the significance of 1914 here:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/06/15/what-happened-in-1914/
Hallo Peter ,
Yes , Russell announced the 1000 years of the kingdom of Christ for 1914 and was LATER ! unsure about the exactly year . But how he got this opinion about 1914 ? To understand this better read please the following informations about his understanding of the bible :
Seventy weeks of years: Russell believed the Adventist interpretation of the prophecy of the 70 weeks “until Messiah the Prince” at Daniel 9:24–27 could be used to demonstrate the validity of the day-for-a-year rule. He took 454 BCE as the date of Artaxerxes’ decree to rebuild Jerusalem, and by converting 69 weeks of seven days (483 days) to 483 years arrived at 29 CE as the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. Christ’s crucifixion took place at the midpoint of the 70th week; the covenant with the Jewish nation remained in force another “week” (seven years) from the beginning of his ministry and its end was signified by the conversion of Cornelius in 36, when the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.
Times of the Gentiles: Using the day-for-a-year rule, Russell adopted and adjusted the teachings of Miller and Englishman John Aquila Brown, who BOTH taught that the chastisement of the Israelites “seven times” for their sins (at Leviticus 26) indicated a period of 2520 years—seven prophetic years of 360 days each. In Russell’s chronology system the period began with the deposing of Zedekiah, the last king of Judah, an event that marked the end of the typical Kingdom of God and beginning of the consequent lease of earthly dominion to Gentile governments, as foretold in Ezekiel 21:25–27. Russell calculated that Zedekiah’s removal occurred in 606 BCE, and therefore claimed the “times of the Gentiles” ran from that date until 1914 !!!, when the kingdom would be re-established on earth under Jewish leadership. The end of the Gentile times would be marked by a return of the Jews to Palestine. Russell believed the period was also one of degradation for mankind in general, which he believed was prefigured by the account in Daniel 4 of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a great tree being cut down and restrained from growth for seven years.
The time of the end: Miller had formulated doctrines drawn from Daniel 12:4, 9 on the “time of the end”, when the meaning of certain prophecies would be finally revealed. Russell made a slight amendment to the teaching, explaining that it began in 1799 when French general Berthier entered Rome, abolished papal government and established the Republic of Italy. The “time of the end” would last 115 years to 1914 !!!. The 1799 !!! date, in turn, had been established by linking the 1260 days of Revelation 11:3 with time periods mentioned in Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 12. Using the year-day principle, the period indicated 1260 years from 539 (when Justinian I recognised the pope as universal bishop) to 1799 !!!.
Great Jubilee: Russell adopted and amended Miller’s teaching of a secondary indicator of the due date for the Millennium. The ancient Jewish law provided for a series of sabbaths, each culminating in the Jubilee year in the 50th year, when slaves were released and leased property returned to its rightful owners. Like Miller, Russell believed the arrangement foreshadowed the release of humans from the debt of sin and bondage through the intervention of Christ. He taught that the Millennium was the antitypical Great Jubilee (the 50th 50-year jubilee) and marked the beginning of the second presence of Christ. Using his calculations of the date of the last jubilee before the Jewish exile, he added 2500 years (50 x 50) and calculated it had begun at the end of 1874 !!!
The great sabbath: Russell embraced Miller’s view that because “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years”, the seventh thousand-year period after creation would be a 1000-year-long sabbath “day”. But whereas Miller had believed 1843 !!! was 6000 years after creation, Russell believed Adam was created in 4129 BC and calculated 1872 !!! as the end of 6000 years. He thought it reasonable that Adam and Eve had lived two years in Eden before sinning, and thus calculated the 6000 years ran from the time sin entered the world to October 1874 !!!, when Christ had returned and the times of restitution began.
Parallel dispensations: Russell expanded Darby’s doctrine of dispensationalism, explaining that events that befell the Jewish nation were prophetic counterparts of events during the Gospel age, with the timing of those events also having prophetic significance. He argued that the Jews had enjoyed 1845 years of favor from the death of Jacob to 33 CE (the Jewish Age) and they would have to endure the same length of time in God’s disfavor—thus from 33 to 1878 !!! (the Gospel Age). The Jews’ fall from favour was gradual, spanning 37 years from 33 to 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed, and that period corresponded to a gradual restoration of God’s favour to them between 1878 !!! and 1914 !!!. But although the Jewish nation’s fall began in 33, God’s favor towards individual Jews continued another 3½ years from Pentecost, during which time the gospel call was limited to Jews. That typified a 3½-year opportunity from 1878 !!! until 1881 !!! when the “high calling” or invitation to become joint heirs with Christ closed. The 3½-year period between Christ’s anointing as Messiah and his riding into Jerusalem on an ass, being acclaimed as king and cleansing the temple of money-changers typified the period between his parousia (1874 !!!) and his assuming kingly power and rejection of “nominal church systems” (1878 !!!). The 40-year “harvest” of the Jewish Age from 29–69 typified a 40-year harvest of the Gospel Age from 1874 !!! to 1914 !!!. The Jews’ expectation of the Messiah’s arrival at the time of Jesus’ birth, 30 years before his anointing, was correlated with the Great Disappointment, the failure of Miller’s prediction of the second coming of Christ in 1844 !!!, 30 years before the date indicated by Russell’s system.
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – Thanks again for your comments. So what are you trying to show from what you have called “how he got this opinion about 1914?” I am curious as to where you got this information?
What is your point for providing this information? What are you hoping we will conclude from it?
If you have never studied volumes 2 & 3 with its scriptures, the information you shared would be hard to understand. A great thing about C.T. Russell is he learned from studying the Bible with other Christians and he looked at the teachings of other Churches and teachers. I believe the holy spirit guided him to sift through the errors and find the truth.
To be clear, Brother Russell never changed his mind about the accuracy of the 1914 date itself. In the 1916 forward of “The Time is at Hand,” Pastor Russell said the following.
“This Volume sets forth, what its author has been preaching for over forty years, that the “Times of the Gentiles” chronologically ended in the fall of A.D. 1914. The expression, “Times of the Gentiles,” in Bible usage signifies the years, or period of time, in which the Gentile nations of the world were to be permitted to have control, following the taking away of the typical kingdom from natural Israel, and filling the hiatus between that event and the establishment of God’s Kingdom in the hands of Messiah– “whose right it is.” Ezekiel 21:27
“We could not, of course, know in 1889, whether the date 1914, so clearly marked in the Bible as the end of the Gentile lease of power or permission to rule the world, would mean that they would be fully out of power at that time, or whether, their lease expiring, their eviction would begin. The latter we perceive to be the Lord’s program; and promptly in August, 1914, the Gentile kingdoms referred to in the prophecy began the present great struggle, which, according to the Bible, will culminate in the complete overthrow of all human government, opening the way for the full establishment of the Kingdom of God’s dear Son…”
The author acknowledges that in this book he presents the thought that the Lord’s saints might expect to be with Him in glory at the ending of the Gentile Times. This was a natural mistake to fall into…
“Our mistake was evidently not in respect to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles; we drew a false conclusion, however, not authorized by the Word of the Lord. We saw in the Bible certain parallels between the Jewish Age and the Gospel Age. We should have noted that these parallels follow the nominal systems to destruction in both cases, and do not indicate the time of the glorification of the New Creation. This explanation will help the reader as he studies “THE TIME IS AT HAND.”
In the September 1916 Watchtower, Pastor Russell said the following: (R5950, p263)
“It still seems clear to us that the prophetic period known as the Times of the Gentiles ended chronologically in October, 1914. The fact that the Great Day of Wrath upon the nations began there marks a good fulfilment of our expectations. The Gentile nations were guaranteed a certain amount of possession and control for a certain period of time. That time having expired, dispossession proceedings are now in process. The winds of strife, winds of war, are let loose with great damage to the whole world, weakening the kingdoms of Europe in respect to their best blood and their financial strength.”
Hallo Peter ,
Yes , AFTERWARDS in 1916 IT WAS EASY to write about own wrong announcements for 1914 , that these were “false conclusions”. So we all can learn that there a false prophets who wrote about things , which are known only by our father in heaven :
“Concerning that day and hour NOBODY knows , neither the angels of the heavens nor the son , but ONLY the father.”
cheers Luz
Hi Lutz,
Please consider that C.T. Russell never claimed to be a prophet. He simply shared the results of his study and encouraged Christian liberty for everyone to decide for themselves. Do we ever see C.T. Russell imposing his views on others?
Please see my answer to NOBODY knows the hour” from my prior response. Are you not satisfied that I answered your challenge?
Since I have not yet heard back from you on this point, let me repeat myself.
Pastor Russell “owned” the Times of the Gentiles concept which identified 1914 as the end of the Times of the Gentiles. In other words, he is the one who taught, promoted and spread the concept worldwide. His reputation would have been severely damaged had nothing happened in 1914. As it turned out:
1) Church/State rule ended
2) European Kings were dethroned forever
3) The European Empires began to lose their colonies
4) WWI lead to the 1917 Balfour Declaration which set aside Palestine as a homeland for the Jews.
Is this all a coincidence? Did C.T. Russell just get lucky like the man at the roulette wheel who picked the lucky number (exact date)?
No other man in history except for Brother Russell has ever been able to preach two future dates (1878 end of Jewish double and 1914 end of Gentile times) based on Bible time prophecy and get it right. For getting it right, he is called a false prophet. Go figure.
Find more on the significance of 1914 here:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/06/15/what-happened-in-1914/
Thanks Lutz for continuing to continue the discussion.
Hallo Peter ,
Russells announcings of a periode of the 2520 years ( the times of the gentile ) was only a COPY ! of another false prophet . His name was J.A.Brown and he published many books about the bible . For example in his book published in London in the year 1823 ( read please the book above ) . His announcings for the end of the gentiles was the year 1917 like Russell’s announcings for 1914 .
https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/FokAQDtWwQgC?hl=en&gbpv=1
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – So you are not answering my questions and responding to my arguments. That is fine. I will be patient with you as long as you want to communicate.
Your next claim is that “the 2520 years (the times of the gentile) was only a COPY ! of another false prophet.”
No one is arguing that C.T. Russell came up with all his ideas on his own. His strength was in learning from others – both from their insights and mistakes. So let’s let Russell’s work stand on it’s own. What is your issue with the 2520 years? From Nebuchadnezzar’s pillaging both Jerusalem and the Temple and carting all of his spoils to Babylon 606-7 BC to 2520 years of the Gentile domination over Israel, brings you to 1914 and WWI, the war that birthed the 1917 Balfour Declarations setting aside land in Israel as a homeland for the Jews. It seems Russell was remarkably accurate in applying the prophecy. So why do you feel this is a false prophecy?
Hallo Peter ,
not only that the 2520 years have NO BASIS in the bible , also the BASIS ( 607 B.C. ) from the prohecy of Russell for the year 1914 is WRONG , because this historical date was 20 years LATER ( 587 B.C. ) . Read here about the history :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC)
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – Babylonian history clay tablets are inconsistent and not reliable. We can discuss that soon, but one thing at a time so as to not confuse.
You say “the 2520 years have NO BASIS in the bible.” If you would have acknowledged the scriptures and explained why you disagreed, I can respect that. However, to simply dismiss the scriptural evidence as if it does not exists suggests that you have made no attempt to look at the Bible support for this prophecy. Is that correct? Let’s take a look at the Bible.
Bible Students today still believe as Pastor Russell taught that the Times of the Gentiles ended in 1914. We see evidence of this in Jesus words In Luke 21:24 “And they [the Jews] shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” In 1917 the Balfour Declaration in was born out of World War 1. It was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that “His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object….”
We arrive at the date 1914 AD as the End of the Gentile Times by performing a time prophecy calculation. The word “times” from Luke 21:24 is the same Greek word for “times” used in Rev 12:14.
Rev 12:14 – she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. In this prophecy each of the 3 ½ times is composed of 360 years for a total of 3 ½ x 360 or 1,260 years (The reign of the Papacy from 539 AD to 1799 AD). So each time in the times of the Gentiles is 360 years. But how many times are there? The answer is found in Lev 26, which speaks of blessings and penalties to Israel for their obedience or disobedience.
Lev 26:18 says -if you will not hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. Four times in this chapter the seven times of punishment are mentioned (see also verses 21, 24 and 28). We think the mentioning of these seven times four times alludes to the four Gentile empires that would rule over the Jews, namely, Babylon, Media Persia, Greece and Rome. Verses 31-33 refer to the land being desolate & the Jews being scattered. Since Lev 26 reveals that the number of times is 7 we can arrive at a period of the Time of the Gentiles being 2,520 years. [7 x 360 = 2,520 years]. Starting with 606 BC as the date Jerusalem was overthrown and adding 2,520 years brings us to AD 1914.
The times of the Gentiles ended in 1914 AD with the beginning of World War I. This war led to the Balfour Declaration in 1917 AD which openly encouraged the Jews to immigrate to Palestine. The World Book Encyclopedia sates, “The (Balfour) declaration stated Britain’s support for the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, without violating the civil and religious rights of the existent non-Jewish communities.” Page 401 of the book “Jews, God and History” states, “Between 1918 and 1936 about 150,000 Jewish immigrants settled in Palestine, speeding its transformation from desolation to fertility. Towns sprang up in the desert and boomed into cities. Villages, factories, schools and orange groves dotted the formerly barren fields from Haifa to Ascalon.”
Hallo Peter ,
you wrote that “The times of the Gentiles ended in 1914 AD with the beginning of World War I” , but Russell put the end of the times of the gentiles to Oct.!!! 1914 and the World War I began in Jul.!!! 1914 . To bring such 2 total different things together ISN’T o.k. and IF I WOULD BE !! ( but I’m NOT !! ) a false prophet like Russell I could easily speculate for the time from 587 B.C. to 1934 ( also 2520 years ) and could explain the special situation of the JEWS UNDER HITLER in 1934 ! Brown , Miller , Russell and many others afterwards were and are teachers until today , who made their wrong propheties about dates still being in the future of history .
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz,
I see you are not challenging the scriptural evidence for the Times of the Gentiles. You can see that Jesus said that “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled already.” So wouldn’t you agree that since Israel became a nation in 1948 that at least by that point in time at the latest that this prophecy has been fulfilled now in the past? Do you see a future fulfilment? How so, if it has already happened?
If Brother Russell had picked any other year for the end of the Times of the Gentiles he would have been accused of being a false prophet. So he selects the correct year and is called a false prophet anyway.
Time prophecies in the Bible are by year, not month i.e. Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy and the 1260, 1290 and 1335 days/years. So precision by year is all that is required for time prophecy accuracy. By month fulfillment is a bonus if it happens that way. As it turns out in October 29, 1914 – the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) entered the war on the side of the Germans as three warships shell the Russian port of Odessa. Since Israel (Palestine) was part of the Ottoman Empire, this was the key point of the end of the Gentile Times. Their defeat paved the way for the Balfour Declaration setting aside Palestine as a homeland for the Jews. God can use both good and evil people and systems to accomplish his purposes.
Hallo Peter,
and what is with 1914 , if 607 B.C. is wrong and 587 B.C. correct ?
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – You asked “what is with 1914 , if 607 B.C. is wrong and 587 B.C. correct?”
587 B.C. is not correct. For me, the question is, do I trust the authoritative secular scholars or the Bible. What of the censored scholars who disagree and are purged out of Universities whenever they disagree with the official narrative in any discipline. Evolution would be an example more people are familiar with. Why don’t we have university professors teaching Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution? There are two movies so far in the Patterns of Evidence series that you can buy on Amazon. The movies demonstrate the errors and bias of secular scholars in insisting on dates that contradict the Bible narrative while ignoring the stronger evidence which supports the Bible. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=patterns+of+evidence&crid=3UBEQKEXX8280&sprefix=patterns+of+evidence%2Caps%2C111&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
It would be too much to lay out the evidence to support 606-7 BC and disprove 586-7 BC. You can find explanations at these links:
Evidence from VAT 4956 — for dating the desolation from 607 BC. This Babylonian cuneiform tablet inscribed on two sides has evidence with 13 lunar synchronisms that affirm the years of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign and therefore the year of the siege and fall of Jerusalem.
https://biblechronology.org/studies/EvidenceVAT4956.pdf
Dating the Desolation — Defending 606 B.C. as the fall of Jerusalem and 70 years as the period of desolation.
https://biblechronology.org/studies/datingdesolation.pdf
Secular history usually represents 536-7 for the decree of Cyrus allowing Jews to return. Adding 70 years desolation of the land brings us to 606-7 BC. The scholars contradict the Bible by insisting on 50 years desolation of the land.
Hallo Peter ,
something for you about the understanding of the Balfour-Declaration , which has nothing to do with the history of loyal christians : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOJqLTc6RkU
cheers Lutz
Hallo Peter ,
ALL the histories about ALL the historic dates about the Jews or the state of Israel ( 1914 – 1917 – 1948 ) has NOTHING to do with the announcings of the TRUE prophet Jesus , because his words were for the WHOLE MANKIND ( INCLUDING ! the Jews ) and he gave us a NEW comandment that we should “love one another” and “also our enemies” . So he could say that all things therfore , that you “want men to do to you” , you also must likewise to “do to them” ; THIS , in fact is what the law and the PROPHETS MEAN . Yes , the kingdom of Jesus will come and the true follower of Christ are still waiting for it and they also don’t forget the other important comandment that we should “love our heavenly father” with our whole heart,soul,mind and strength . If you read 1.Cor.13 you can see that Paulus has understand this and I hope you have understand this , too .
cheers Lutz
Lutz – I have to admire your willingness to continue the discussion. Few people are interested enough or patient enough to do so.
I am glad for your focus on the “NEW commandment that we should ‘love one another’ and ‘also our enemies.’” Getting dates right won’t do us much good if our hearts are not right.
Since you have pointed out the importance of 1 Cor 13, let me quote from it to share it with our readers.
1 Cor 13:4-7 “4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
Lutz – Israel is important to God’s plan for mankind. God promised
God promised the Land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants forever. (Gen 13:15). God repeated the promise to Isaac (Gen 26:4) & Jacob (Gen 48:3,4). But they all died as aliens and strangers in the land, never actually inheriting it in their lifetime (Gen. 17:8; Acts 7:5, Gen 28:4), proving that someday Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected on earth at which time God will fulfill the promise of giving them the land forever. (see also Psa. 105:9:12). We care that God keeps this promise to Abraham and his descendants otherwise how can we trust he will keep his promises to us?
God’s promise to Abraham is the key to how these faithful followers of Jesus will work with him to bless all mankind in the future paradise kingdom on earth.
Acts 3:25 “… the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’”
Galatians 3:16,29 “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. … ‘And to your Seed,’ who is Christ. … And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Jesus and his body members are the “seed” to bless all the families of the earth in the future kingdom. God’s promise to Abraham is the key to how these faithful followers of Jesus will work with him to bless all mankind in the future peaceful and righteous kingdom on earth. Notice that both Jesus and his followers are Abraham’s spiritual seed who in the future will bless all the families of the earth; yes, all mankind. These resurrected and glorified body members with their head Jesus, together as the spiritual seed of Abraham, will follow Jesus’ guidance in the joint effort to bless ALL the families of the earth.
God promised Abraham that his seed would be blessed as the stars of heaven (bride of Christ) and sands of the seashore (natural Israel on earth). We can see how scriptures regarding the regathering of the Jews have gradually been fulfilled so far and will continue to completion in the setting up of the kingdom on earth.
A. The fact that they would be regathered to the land (Isa. 43:5-6 & Jer 30:3), never again to be removed (Amos 9:14) on that day (Isa 11:11)
B. First Jewish settlement called Petiteekvah (meaning, “door of hope” – Hosea 2:15) established in 1878 A.D. following permission from Berlin Congress of Nations.
C. Fishers (Biblical Zionism, not political Zionism) & Hunters (Nazi Persecution). (Jer 16:15,16). I suggest that God permitted Nazi persecution to drive the Jews back to their land, but that Satan attempted to thwart God’s plan by using this same persecution to exterminate the Jews (the earthly seed). Although God permitted this evil for a time, he finally intervened to prevent the Jewish extermination from continuing, by turning the war against Germany; thereby demonstrating that God’s intervention and care were necessary for the protection and preservation of the Jewish people. Every Jew who died in the Holocaust will come back to joy and happiness in the resurrection and with the realization of their need for a kingdom ruled by God, where all mankind can be happy and safe.
D. Remnant return weeping & crying after Holocaust (Jer 31:7-9).
E. No longer servants in other lands in that day (Jer 30:8)
F. Land reclamation (Amos 9:14; Isa 35:1,2; Isa. 61:4). Rebuilding of cities, clearing swamps, irrigating deserts & farming the land. In the past centuries, Israel was a barren wasteland and filled with swamps and deserts. Now God has transformed Israel into a thriving farming country which exports much of its crops and is one of the most technologically advanced nations on the planet.
G. The city of Jerusalem restored to the Jewish people (Zech 12:6) in that day.
H. Other nations (trees) springing to life along with Israel (fig tree) (Luke 21:29-30) points to nearness of the kingdom. (figs=Israel Jer 24 & Matt 21:19)
I. Trains & Automobiles: Vol. 3, pg. 272; Nahum 2:3-5 and Isaiah 66:20.
Isaiah 2:2-4 (NKJV) “2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD’S house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. 3 Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.”
Hallo Peter ,
there is no nation ( for example Israel or any other state in the world ) or a religion ( for example the Jews or any other religion in the world ) who is realy SUPPORTING the coming kingdom of Jesus Christ ! Have a look for example at the Worldwar I , where 99% of the suitable men worked for the war and it didn’t matter if they were Jews , catholics or protestants . Read please this statistic-report : https://ia600300.us.archive.org/12/items/diedeutschenjude00segauoft/diedeutschenjude00segauoft.pdf
Only under 1 % !! didn’t work for this Worldwar I and IMPORTANT is ONLY the INDIVIDUAL . Jesus said that we could recognize his followers by there love to other human beings
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz,
Thanks again for your response. As always I appreciate your emphasis on LOVE, as the other issues are not so important if we are lacking the most important virtue (1 Cor 13).
I am a bit confused at your response. You are clearly a believer in the Bible. I quoted scriptures which show God would bring back the Jews to the Land He gave their fathers and that Jerusalem would be the center of worship in God’s Kingdom on earth. There are many more scriptures I can quote if to prove this view if you request them. I know you are not the cherry picker type who only accepts scriptures which support your point of view and dismiss other scriptures.
I see your objection, that Israel is not a nation of faith in God that supports His coming Kingdom. So why would God be working with a faithless nation? Your point is well taken. Even so, like Job, we don’t want to argue with God’s decisions. When God does something, it is always for a good reason, even if we don’t understand why. I can help with more scriptures revealing God’s purpose with the Jews.
God has some cleanup work to do with Israel. Be patient Lutz (2 Pet 3:8-9). God does things in his own time, not our time. Proud taken away and humble remnant remains (“that day” Zeph 3:11-13; Isa 4:3,4).
Ezekiel 20:34-38 (NKJV) “34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples [in land of Israel trusting their own wisdom, lacking faith in God] , and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord GOD. [Israel’s experiences since 1948, relying on their own ingenuity, as God rescues them from every attempt of enemies to destroy Israel] 37 “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; [final Ezekiel 38 & 39 battle] 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell [land of Israel without faith], but they shall not enter the land of Israel [now with faith]. Then you will know that I am the LORD.”
In the prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones in Ez 37, God promises to bring the children of Israel back to their own land (the He gave their fathers).
Ezek 37:21-28 (KJV) 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land”
Notice how various stages of their return to Israel: Dry bones, then muscles, next flesh and skin and then finally breath (the Holy Spirit – yet future)
Ezek 37:4-6 (BBE) “4 And again he said to me, Be a prophet to these bones, and say to them, O you dry bones, give ear to the word of the Lord. 5 This is what the Lord has said to these bones: See, I will make breath come into you so that you may come to life; 6 And I will put muscles on you and make flesh come on you, and put skin over you, and breath into you, so that you may have life; and you will be certain that I am the Lord.”
Ezek 37:11-14 (BBE) “11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are all the children of Israel: and see, they are saying, Our bones have become dry our hope is gone, we are cut off completely.
12 For this cause be a prophet to them, and say, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am opening the resting-places of your dead, and I will make you come up out of your resting-places, O my people; and I will take you into the land of Israel. 13 And you will be certain that I am the Lord by my opening the resting-places of your dead and making you come up out of your resting-places, O my people. 14 And I will put my spirit in you, so that you may come to life, and I will give you a rest in your land: and you will be certain that I the Lord have said it and have done it, says the Lord.”
So be patient Lutz. This is a long process for us, but God has his time table. Israel must learn some lessons and the rebels finally purged out of the nation before God will put his spirt in them.
Hallo Peter :
im Josua 21:43-45 everybody can read that “Israel got their land” many years ago (a promise to Abraham), but much later Jesus said that the Jews would loose their land , because it would given to a “nation” which would “producing its fruits” ( Matth.21:42-43 )
cheers Lutz
Yes Lutz – God had conditionally promised Israel that IF they would obey him that he would make them to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” Ex 19:5-6. Yet, they were unfaithful and that promise was transferred to faithful Christian people. Hence we are told in 1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light”
However, Jesus indicated that the punishment of of Israel would not be forever, but that “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Luke 21:24. Hence Jesus promised in Matt 19:28 (NKJV) that “in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” This means that the nation would rise again to be ruled by Jesus’ disciples (the 12 Apostles).
So Israel lost the conditional promise of being a “royal priesthood and holy nation,” but God did not take away the unconditional promise (Romans 11:28-29) of the land forever. Genesis 13:14-15 (NKJV) “14 And the LORD said to Abram…”Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are–northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.”
Therefore in Amos 9:14-15 (ESV) God states that “14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the LORD your God.”
Isa 11:9-12 (NKJV) “9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10 ¶ “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.” 11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.”
So now Lutz, we have a more complete picture of God’s plans for both natural and spiritual Israel.
Please read: Did the Apostle Paul believe that the Jews (natural Israel) were Rejected by Jehovah Forever?
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/12/01/did-the-apostle-paul-believe-that-the-jews-natural-israel-were-rejected-by-jehovah-forever/
Hallo Peter ,
you wrote that Israel lost the conditional promise of being a “royal priesthood and holy nation,” but God did not take away the unconditional promise (Romans 11:28-29) of the land forever.
This “unconditional promise” of the land “forever” was given to ALL human beings , not only to the Jews and so Paulus could wrote : “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside , nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh . But he is a Jew who is one on the inside and circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by written code .” ( Romans 2:28-29 )
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz – Based on Romans 2:28-29 you say that promise of the land forever was given to all human beings? By “all human beings,” do you mean that the land of Israel also belongs to non-Christian people in India and China as well? You and I agree that the Christian followers of Jesus are spiritual Israel or we can say spiritual Jews as well. Where we disagree is that you feel this deletes all God’s promises to natural Israel and that there should be no future or no nation for the Jew in God’s plan. Am I understanding you correctly? If so, in my opinion there is a flaw in your reasoning on this topic. Are you not cherry picking scriptures? Aren’t you ignoring all the multitude of scriptures I quoted which prove God has a plan for natural Israel as well?
I can quote you scriptures all day long showing God’s promise to restore the Jews to the land of Israel forever. Are you just going to keep responding that we are spiritual Israel?
Psalms 105:7-11 (NKJV) “7 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth. 8 He remembers His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, 9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, 10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant, 11 Saying, ‘To you I will give the land of Canaan As the allotment of your inheritance…’”
Ezek 36 (NKJV)
24 “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 ¶ “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 “Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
29 “I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you.
30 “And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations.
31 “Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.
32 “Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
33 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt.
34 “The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by.
35 “So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’
Hallo Peter ,
the Israel of the year 1948 (a present of the British Empire) has nothing to do with the land of Israel at the time of Josua (Josua 21:43-45) when Israel GOT THIS land Israel (the heavenly father FULLFILLED at THAT time his PROMISE to Abraham and NOT in 1948 OR LATER in the history of mankind). At the time of Jesus (about the year 30) he could say that the Jews lost this land which was given them in the time of Josua , because the the “PLAN” (I would say “intention”) of his heavenly father was to give the WHOLE EARTH FOREVER (not only the territory of Israel) to ALL true followers of Jesus ( ALSO Jews became at that time true followers of Jesus ) This land Israel was destroyed by the Romans in the year 70. In the future of Mankind ALL human beings (ALSO Jews), who are true followers of Jesus Christ can obtain life forever and it doesn’t matter WHERE (Earth or Heaven) this life exactly is. Words in the bible can have literally, symbolic or sometimes both meanings .
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz. Thanks again for your reply. You explained your perspective very well. Do you think that the faithful Christian people in God’s Kingdom will have bodies as heavenly spirit beings or as perfect human beings on earth? Will they live on earth or live in heaven (visiting earth at times)?
How do you explain the many scriptures I quoted that teach that God will bring the Jews back to the land of Israel at the end times, reform them, cleanse them, deliver them from their attackers and that Jerusalem will be the center of God’s kingdom on earth? Are you satisfied that you can really you explain away these many clearly stated Bible verses? Even Jesus placed a limit on Israel’s punishment – Luke 12:24 (Amplified) “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).”
Is God a liar? Of course not. How then do we explain that God promised Abraham the land as a “permanent possession” but never followed through on the promise to Abraham personally? Acts 7:5 (Amplified) “Yet He gave him no inheritable property in it, no not even enough ground to set his foot on; but He promised that He would give it to Him for a permanent possession and to his descendants after him, even though as yet he had no child.” Doesn’t this prove Abraham will personally inherit the land in the future?
By the way, you referred to Israel becoming a nation in 1948 as “a present from the British.” Putting aside that debate, it doesn’t matter how they became a nation. God can stir up the hearts of rulers of this world to accomplish his purposes, whether their motives are good or evil.
2 Chronicles 36:22–23 “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying: ‘Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven, given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people—the LORD his God be with him—let him go up.'”
Hallo Peter ,
the kingdom of Jesus Christ (ONLY during a periode of years , perhaps 1000 years if the meaning is literally) will have a government in HEAVEN under Jesus Christ with some follwers of him ( if literally 144000 ) , who have bodies as heavenly spirit beings. On EARTH are perfect human beings . But important is that AFTER this periode Jesus Christ will give back ALL !! to his heavenly father and so Paulus could write following interesting words in 1.Cor.15:27,28 : Last of the enemies death is superseded . For “he (the heavenly father) has subjected everything under his feet (the feet of the Son)”; but, when it says “everyting” is subjected, evidently exclusive of him (the heavenly father) who subjected everything to him (Jesus Christus) . But when everything has been subjected to him, then the Son (Jesus Christus) himself too will be subjected to him (the heavenly father) who subjected everything to him (Jesus Christus), in order that God (the heavenly father ) may be EVERYTING IN EVERYTING .
Hi Lutz – Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Are numbers in Revelation literal or symbolic? I will suggest that numbers in Revelation and Daniel are literal. For example Daniels 70 weeks or 490 days are taken literally as the number 490. Same with Daniels 2300, 1260, 1290 and 1335 days. Though as with the 70 weeks, a day represents a year. So 483 years (490-7) from the kings command to Nehemiah to build the wall (BCE 454) to Jesus baptism (AD 29). Also 7 Churches, 7 Trumpets, 7 Seals and 7 Plagues are all literal numbers, even if the Churches, Trumpets, Seals and Plagues are symbolic.
I hope that after all the scriptural evidence I shared, that you are leaving a door open to consider that natural Israel as well might have a special place in God’s kingdom. I have enjoyed our discussions so far. Is there anything else you would like to discuss?
Hallo Peter ,
Yes , BEFORE the time in which Jesus was on earth we had here preferred human beings and preferred groups in preferred regions , who had on earth a “special place” in the intention of the heavenly father . But AFTER the preachings of Jesus Christ the intention of the heavenly father became clearer to the human beings , because we could see an EXPENDING of the PROMISES over ALL human beings in ALL regions of the earth . Paulus understand this and I hope you , too : “there is no such thing as JEW or Greek , there is noch such thing as slave or free , there is no such thing as male and female , for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ , then you are seed of ABRAHAM , heirs by PROMISE.” (Gal.3:28,29)
cheers Lutz
Thanks Lutz.
Genesis 22:17 (ESV) “I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven (bride of Christ Gal 3:28-29) and as the sand that is on the seashore (natural Israel).”
Romans 11:25-29 shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them. Find a complete explanation with more evidence here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/12/01/did-the-apostle-paul-believe-that-the-jews-natural-israel-were-rejected-by-jehovah-forever/
Hallo Peter ,
you spoke about Genesis 22:17 , but please read Genesis 22:18 , too : “and ALL! NATIONS! on earth ( NOT ONLY Israel ) shall bless by your descendants , because you obeyed me.”
you spoke about Romans 11:25-29 BUT here AGAIN Paulus wrote about ALL! NATIONS! ( NOT ONLY Israel ) :
“the FULLNESS! of the NATIONS! gets in” ( Romans 11:25 )
cheers Lutz
Yes Lutz, as you say ALL NATIONS shall be blessed.
Gen 22:18 (NKJV) “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (See also Gal 3:8)
And who are all the nations blessed by? By the seed which includes natural (Micah 4:1-4) and spiritual Israel (Gal 3:29)
The “fullness of the Gentiles” is the full number of the Gentiles selected to be of the Bride of Christ.
Romans 8:25 (Amplified) “…a hardening (insensibility) has temporarily befallen a part of Israel to last until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in”
Once the heavenly bride is complete, the blindness will be removed from natural Israel.
Romans 8:28-29 (Amplified) “28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they the Jews, at present are enemies of God, which is for your advantage {and } benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.”
God’s promises are “irrevocable.” He never lies (Heb 6:18). God will not withdraw his irrevocable promise to Abraham that the natural seed will inherit the land forever (Gen 13:15).
NATURAL ISRAEL TO BE A BLESSING TO MANKIND
Isa 27:6 – Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. (NKJ)
Zech 8:22-23 – many nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem (NKJ)
Jer 3:17 – Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD (NKJ)
Isa 61:5&6 – Other nations will look to Israel as priests and will bring their wealth and services.
Isa 2:2-4 – People seek the LORD in Jerusalem and worship Him there (Zech 14:16)
Zech 14:17 – Whoever doesn’t go to Jerusalem to worship will receive no rain (blessings, see also Micah 5:7)
Zech 8:13 – Israel shall be a blessing
Gen 28:14 – In Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth will be blessed. Isaac pictures the heavenly seed and Jacob the earthly seed (natural Israel). Blessing will flow both from heaven (Christ & the Church) and earth (natural Israel).
Hallo Peter ,
Is the natural Israel of 1948 until today realy the “nation which don’t learn war” ??? (Micah.4:3)
If you regard natural Israel today everybody can see that the most people GO TO WAR and only a little few of them don’t go to war.
The “nation which DON’T GO TO WAR” are the real FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST (Matth.5:44) and and surely NOT the natural Israel ! These followers you can find IN EVERY NATION of the world and naturally you can find them ALSO IN Israel .
cheers Lutz
Hi Lutz,
You are right Lutz. There is war. Micah 4:3 is NOT yet fulfilled. However, I ask, don’t you agree that this is God’s plan for mankind’s the future?
You are focused on the PRESENT. Presently there is war, crimes, evil and death around the planet. I agree with you that this is terrible. However, as you know Lutz, God has a better plan for mankind’s future.
Rev 21:4 “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
You are focused on the followers of Jesus around the world who do NOT go to war.
Matt 5:43-45 (NKJV) “43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven…”
Good, this is where our focus should be, on following Jesus. Part of following Jesus is God preparing our characters for our future work to assist in blessing mankind (Gal 3:29) in God’s future kingdom on earth.
If in the future, God wants to forgive and bless Israel as one of the pieces of this plan, why not embrace it? I have shared with you scriptures which show that when God brings the Jews back to Israel that there are faithless proud ones among them which eventually must be purged out (Zeph 3:11-13; Isa 4:3,4). We also looked at Ezek 37 which shows that the regathering of Israel is a gradual process – bones, then muscle added, then skin added, then finally breath – God’s holy spirit poured on the nation – this is the last step yet future.
Acts 2:17 – “in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on ALL flesh” NKJV
If God is going to pour His spirit on ALL flesh, is it so hard to imagine that natural Israel in the future will be the first nation to receive God’s spirit?
So Lutz, I can see that you and I agree on much. I am asking you to expand your mind to accept that God is so generous that his blessings will extend beyond today’s Christians to tomorrows repentant Israel and repentant mankind.
Acts 3:25 – ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ NKJV
Have all the “families of the earth shall be blessed” yet. No, not yet. So the fulfillment of this promise is yet future that they will be blessed by Abraham’s seed (stars = Jesus and glorified Christians and sand = natural Israel). Hence God’s will accomplish that which he purposed.
God Wants to Save ALL People
2 Peter 3:9 (ASV) “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
1 Timothy 2:4 “who [God] desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
Isaiah 14:24 “The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, ‘Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand’” (see also Isa 46:9-11; 45:22-23)
If God can accomplish anything he has purposed and if He wants to save everyone, isn’t He powerful enough and wise enough to develop a salvation plan to accomplish that? That is, by giving every human being the best opportunity possible for eternal salvation without violating free will?
Hallo Peter ,
Yes , our heavenly father forgives ALL nations ( INCLUDING Israel ) and this means the WHOLE mankind , which are OVER 100 000 000 000 during their history , but he doesn’t FORCED everybody of this OVER 100 000 000 000 to get eternal life and so Jesus could say : “I never knew you” (Matth.7:23)
cheers Lutz
Good scripture Lutz. It ultimately required of ALL to do the will of the Father.
Matt 7:21-22 (NKVJ) “21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
Is there any other scriptures or topics you would like to discuss Lutz?
Hallo Peter ,
and the new “NATION” (Matth.21:43) , who do “THE WILL OF MY FATHER” (Matth.7:21) with the famous commandment in Matth.5:44 is the “NATION” of followers of Jessus Christ .
This “NATION” excists now since nearly about 2000 years and this human beings are coming out of all other nations .
cheers Lutz
Agreed Lutz. Well said.
Lutz – Let’s take a look at the verse you quoted. It very well agrees with your explanation.
Matt 21:42-44 (NKJV) 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’S doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 “And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
Verse 44 is curious. Do you see a connection with Daniel 2:44?
Hallo Peter ,
the “Nation” who receive the kingdom of Dan.2:44 is the same “Nation” about Jesus could say :
“My kingdom is not part of this world . If my kingdom were part of this world my attendants would have fought that I should not delivered up to the Jews . But as it is my kingdom is not from this world.” (John 18:26)
For example under Hitler in Germany only 0,05 % !!! of the men didn’t go to war and if you have a look at other nations in the whole history since the times of Jesus you can find similar results and the good “fruits” you can find under this new “Nation” – the followers of Jesus Christ (Matth.7:20)
cheers Lutz
Yes – I like your answer Lutz.
Do you agree then that the STONE OF Daniel 2:44 is the same a the “NATION” Jesus spoke of in Matt 21:23?
In Matt 21:44 when it says, “on whomever it falls, it [the stone] will grind him to powder” how do you see the fulfillment of this?
Hallo Peter ,
yes , in the kingdom of Jesus Christ will be many “stones” (this new “nation”) and the most important stone is naturally Jesus Christ himself (1.Petr.2:4-5)
cheers Lutz
Thanks Lutz. Let me know if there is anything else you would like to discuss.
The bottom line Jehovah clearly says he is coming like a thief in the night his word never changes.. His son doesnt even know when he’s coming. And you want to say Jehovah gave Russell a pass on not one but several false prophecies when it’s in the bible? COME ON NOW REALLY
Lashell,
Thanks for sharing. Are you sure you know what Russell taught on prophecy?
Feel free to select ONE false prophecy of Russell and let’s discuss it.
Well didn’t he say in 1914 that would be the end of the world? isn’t that a prophecy? (no disrespect) This is just confusing the heck out of me. I read on this site were it was noted that Jehovah basically overruled that mistake.. does Jehovah do that?
I am a Jehovah Witness.. and I just want to know who predicted that the world would end on several occasion .. specifically in 1914 when tons of people sold there property etc. If it wasn’t Russell awesome. But I’m I losing my mind didn’t someone prophesize that the world will end the last time was in 1975? Which of course Russell was way passed away by then.. so was it Rutherford?
Lashell,
I think this link will help to explain.
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/06/20/was-pastor-russell-wrong-about-1914/
Hello Lashell.
I’m hearing your confusion, and your desperation, along with what I perceive to be great sincerity. I’m not hearing any disrespect in your comments, nor in your questions. For what it’s worth, I believe your questions are absolutely crucial to consider carefully, prayerfully.
I’d like to try and respond to them one at a time.
>”Well didn’t he say in 1914 that would be the end of the world?”
Early on, Brother Russell did anticipate something to that effect, but as I understand it, even before 1914, he realized his expectation was in need of some adjustment. He still adhered to the date, but refined his ideation on just what would occur at that date.
>”isn’t that a prophecy? (no disrespect)”
I suppose that really depends on your definition of the word “prophecy”. Rather than debate what’s the “proper” definition of the term, let me try and answer it in words that I hope will mean the same thing to both you an me. Were Brother Russell’s sayings “Inspired of God?” I don’t believe so. In harmony with God’s word, to his best ability and understanding, yes. Inspired, no. Did Russell claim to be a prophet? Not that I’m aware. I only ever read his own words that denied any accusation or intimation of such.
I’d also like to add this scripture, not to add to the confusion, but to help you make your own educated decision:
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (ISV) (20) Even then, if the prophet speaks presumptuously in my name, which I didn’t authorize him to speak, or if he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.’ (21) Now you may ask yourselves, ‘How will we be able to discern that the LORD has not spoken?’ (22) Whenever a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, and the oracle does not come about or the word is not fulfilled, then the LORD has not spoken it. The prophet will have spoken presumptuously, so you need not fear him.”
Was it Russell, or was it the Bible that predicted that something momentous would happen in 1914? Did something noteworthy and momentous actually occur in 1914? Just what does the Bible say about the date 1914? Is the date in error? Or is it just the expectations that are/were in error?
>”I read on this site were it was noted that Jehovah basically overruled that mistake.. does Jehovah do that?”
I cannot know what that writer’s specific reference was, but I can guess the writer’s intent. I would say that Jehovah never allows any human being to alter his plan. Simply put, Jehovah was not going to change events just to lend Russell credibility. Does that match better with your understanding?
>”I am a Jehovah Witness.”
So was I, for most of the last 50 years. I, too, have experienced great inner turmoil, confusion, frustration, and panic over issues like these failed and changed predictions.
>”and I just want to know who predicted that the world would end on several occasion .. specifically in 1914 when tons of people sold there property etc.”
I’ve heard it said that many sold their homes and belongings in and around 1975. I’m not aware that anything like that occurred in 1914, but beyond that, I cannot really say. Numerous places on the internet can fill in more of the picture regarding the failed predictions over the years. Perhaps this link might give you more information: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php
Speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF, I believe that Russell acknowledged his human presumptuousness, and attributed to Jehovah God praise for “correcting” his erroneous expectations. Though I cannot locate “proof” right this instant, it is my recollection that he also humbly acknowledged before God and his earthly brothers his error, and “repaired the damage” to the extent possible by his subsequent words and writings. To me, that stands in stark contrast to the 1975 debacle. I recall a talk at a District Convention in the 1980’s that shamed and condemned all JW followers for believing the 1975 error, as though it was the common individuals who dreamed up and put faith in the 1975 date. But one only needs look at these articles to see it was taught from the top down. See the following Awake! Magazines: October 8, 1966; January 8, 1968; October 8, 1968 and decide for yourself. The way I see it, it’s not the failed expectation that is the most worrisome, but how the “oopsie” was handled that tells a lot about the true nature of the problem. (Those Awake magazines can be found here: https://archive.org/details/1975PredictionsInAwakeMagazineByJehovahsWitnesses)
>”If it wasn’t Russell awesome.”
You will be able to make a better personal assessment of that now, I’m sure.
>”But I’m I losing my mind…”
Oh dear! This single expression is the one that pains me most deeply. I lived in that state for decades before I got answers I could trust. I hope and pray you quickly re-discover your waning ability to trust your own ears, eyes, thoughts, and feelings.
>”didn’t someone prophesize that the world will end the last time was in 1975? Which of course Russell was way passed away by then.. so was it Rutherford?”
Check the magazines and sites I listed above. I’m confident you’ll find what you need there. In any event, please be assured that your confusion is not peculiar to you. We welcome you here, and are very glad you found your way here.
If it would please you to do so, it would please us greatly to hear more about you and your journey thus far. Many will benefit (sometimes even years later) from hearing the stories of others.
-greg
Greg – Have we ever met? I am in the Chicago area.
No, Peter, not that I’m aware of. I live in Southwestern Ontario, Canada. I’m curious as to why you ask. 🙂
Someday, I hope to have the pleasure of meeting you face to face.
Meantime, since I’m speaking directly to you, I’d like to express my sincere gratitude to you and all the Bible Student’s for your love and the efforts you put forth. I hope and strive that in some small way I too can use my meager talents to contribute to Christ’s brothers and to all of humanity.
Greg – I enjoy your participation. Any chance of you attending the General Convention in Johnstown, Pennsylvania?
Ah, Thanks! Sadly, no, I can’t attend it this year.
Greg – Glad to have you here with us as part of the FJW family.
Br. Peter, Greg helps Henry a lot. He has been a blessing to him by corresponding by email. So I need to let him know Henry medical procedures came out okay today. No cancer and now we wait on the bone marrow biopsy and then the last surgery. You have been a great help to him.
For the record, I have never counted any time on the computer and have never been a pioneer.
Hank accepted. It is just you are an active witness on a non witness site. Yet you tell persons to follow the direction of your organization but you don’t. So That is why I have questions. You advocate the organization of JW and that”s okay, but you should be on jw.org and not taking this site in your direction. I feel you also have opened your eyes to the high control of the witnesses as the talk I posted demonstrates you are in defiance of them and that is okay Hank. It is the first step to coming to Christ.
Hi Chuck;
Here are a couple of questions from the 1905 July WT.
First was, Who will be found worthy to be of the “little flock”? Is not this aspiring to high? Should we not, rather, hope to be of the great company, who will go through the fire of tribulation?
The second, Will not first of all the martyrs of the past be of the little flock, and are they more than 144,000?
Hank are you a regular pioneer? The reason I ask is, Br. Chuck does not know what that is and you are just counting time on him. If it is a question that you don’t already have the answer to, that would be okay. You have an answer already for everything. To anointed1 you told her what to do, where to go and what the whole world believe and how God will judge them.
You know all the answers, so why are you conversing so much when you are a witness and is satisfied as one. This site is different than most BS sites it is not for JW that are satified with the watchtower. It is a place for them to discuss their problems without having an active pioneer counting their time.
We need to limit your commenting so others can talk. Most visiting this site are polite and won’t jump in if not addressed or an open forum. So let us give them a chance. There are other sites that could use your deep insight also or maybe you are on them but we need to give others a chance since you have stated and restated your thoughts.
Have you dialogued on the jw.org site lately? Please, let’s be couteous and give others a chance to start their conversation. What do you say, huh?
To Chuck;
The Lord’s Evening Meal is where about million people met on the say day, Nisan 14, the Day Jesus was killed.
Hank
Hi Chuck;
Before I start on your question. I would like to tell you about me. I would probably save many people that maybe God would not. Does that mean I am more merciful than God? No, it simply means that the judging work is in his hands, and his Son. So to those here I would save you, but that is not my job. And like many other things, which I can not do, but other humans can, I can only observe them doing it.
Will have to do a research for you on a 1905 question to Brother Russell in the 1905 WT on the great crowd of Rev. 7:9-17. One should keep an open mind to the fact that the last living apostle did not know who they were. So, it is not a bad thing that Pastor Russell had a hard time doing something with them. So he called them under achievers to the high calling and will go to have to serve the 144,000 in their heavenly assignments, without getting immortality, they will be like angels.
But the verses their show it to be a great crowd that gets salvation. They washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. How many ways do you think of, of washing your robe in the blood of the Lamb?
1. Baptizes as a baby.
2. Take a white robe and wash it, and where in the name of Jesus.
Sure, you will agree those won’t cut the mustard. But a good question to ask is as follows. We have not got to the tribulation yet, so would it have been wise for God to have brother Russell collecting them way back then. Was not brother Russell collecting those who would be called to the heavenly life. Heb. 3:1 Not that anyone who read his teaching could not gain even if not of the calling which many did. And that is why those questions came to him. Millions of readers yet only 144,000 would go to heaven.
When 1914 came and went did he abandon the WT? No he did not. So a logical question comes to mind. If it was used to help the called ones, why stop when the Pastor died? Was it not like a stage coach being chased and took a sharp corner and some did not hang on and fell off and then had to go their own way?
I think of how God had a few million I believe in the wilderness and can only conclude it was organized. Likewise I believe Brother Russell had things organized at Bethel. Oil the printing equipment, timely deliveries, etc. It was an organized Society. Today I heard the U.N. said there is a large area of slave trade workers going on. Don’t people question why? In this age? This is why the good news of the kingdom is being preached for a witness to the nations. Mt. 24:14
And like I heard many produce Bibles and Bible literature. But as a Catholic raised and a 12 dollar Bible at age 13 I was taught less than 1 percent of the Bible. So there is much more to just having a Bethel to print literature. Jesus also told us to teach and baptize people at Mt 28:18-20
That is where this great crowd has amassed, more than twice the size of the people that came out of Egypt. And as stated earlier, I am not the judge. With 12 more million at the Lord’s Evening Meal I hope God’s mercy extends there. And as said earlier I hope his saving grace can extend further.
Example, a person reads this, and in the future the great tribulation comes they quick remember this and pray to God and he spares them. I hope you understand me a little better. But the Bible says in the end times he will have a mighty nation.
Hi Jacqueline;
Thank you for your comments. I believe I have read where everyone is welcome to express themselves. Like, a freedom of speech. Buy one of your comments though it sounds as though it is for ill people you want to help heal.
My belief is that the Bible of all books stands alone.
Now if one takes on the idea that the only thing they need is the Bible, they have that choice. Abel didn’t need a Bible. Abel didn’t need a house to meet in. Abel didn’t need someone to print literature for him. Or a temple, or synod. So any person can say that worship to God did not need the Bible Students or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
But in that Bible, when God brought out the nation of Israel did he organize them or keep them disorganized? Can you think of how when the cloud moved they packed up and moved with it. How about all the organization with eating and discharging. It was very organized. Then they had big gatherings or assemblies. They had to be organized, and men were put in charge of seeing that this was done. And to be given all these laws, 600 hundred plus. Why Korah and his crowd decided it is wrong. Why should those two men be the ones used by God.
“You sir must be an elder or of the elite.” Almost 42 years and have never been an elder. As to being in the elite. We are all brothers. My personal feelings is, if I can be the least in Jehovah God’s arrangement, it is better than any position in Satan’s arrangement. You being a shrink can get this answer out of me. I am a nobody.
The fact you felt that, along with being like an admin, wow, I don’t know what to say.
But if you would rather say go away we don’t want your free speech, just say it. But I don’t think you are that way. But could be wrong. I will check later.
Have a great day
Hank
Hi Chuck;
The place at Bethel when Pastor Russell was alive is where they printed all kinds of literature in making known Bible truths. And they lived there and had daily Bible discussions with all. Likewise today, Bethel’s main purpose is to produce literature with Bible Truths. They live there and also have daily Bible discussions.
Yesterday out in the ministry, my partner placed a set of magazines with a young lady and then asked her who rules this world? She thought a while and then said, it can’t be God because he is in heaven, so it must be the son. 1 John 5:19 and 2 Cor. 4:3,4 were read. She looked a little in shock at what the Bible says. She was then directed to http://www.jw.org and told she can get many of her questions answered there. And we let her with the good news of the kingdom which will do away with Satan the god of this world and things will be much better.
Thanks to Jehovah God’s organization, I have literature and Bibles and a web site I can use to help people. But show how the Devil tries to make it look bad.
If you read the book of Numbers chapter 16 you will see that it is easy to get deluded and go down by listening to those who fight against God’s representatives. Verse two they went against Moses and Aaron.
After you came through the Red Sea, would you go against Moses and Aaron? I don’t think you would.
This past season how would you, assuming you are in charge handle this? Chuck, we are going to have about 20 million people meeting on this night. Here are the phone numbers of the 8 million in the home studies. Normally our small house holds 12 people for the ecclesia and your first call says we might be able to handle 4 more.
You go, wow one problem solved but I will try another one. Listen to this answer. Sorry Chuck we are going to be gone for three weeks and our house will not be available. The point being made is, could you do it?
The small group of men at Bethel have to see that this is done. And done it is.
Enjoy talking to Bible thinkers, have a great day.
Hank
I know this is for Chuck but obviously you have never spent weeks at Bethel in New York. (BTW all properties are sold) I have spent many days at Patterson and Wallkill and no it is not open to the public for classes. Maybe in your country but normally all Bethels behave somewhat the same
Also the watchtower society is lagging behind most in being on the internet and it is an information website only. you can’t dialogue back and forth. In fact most xjw bought the names they could have used as they lagged behind technology thus the generic jw.org that has to be advertised as it denotes nothing about who they are. Just a sidebar from insiders. Most religions have books bibles and etc so this is not an exceptional thing. Not all religions recruit however. Witnesses will not hold conversations with persons that know the bible well. As a witness for 61years we were taught to walk away. Mostly unsuspecting ones like the lady you met, who if she took the time to study the bible with help from Holy Spirit and others she could have stood her ground with you.
It seems the society says the internet is dangerous and now it is not. Yet another flip flop. They also tell you not to be on sites commenting, I was sitting there when it was read. Or maybe they have changed so you should be in the clear. What happens when you try to dialogue on the witness website?
Hank,
I guess I still have questions about a few of your statements.
“Thanks to Jehovah God’s organization” Really? I have not found it in scriptures that God HAS an organization. Please explain. The Bible Students have small groups that publish tracts and disperse them. They are not part of any organization but are individual ecclesias. There is no need for a small group a men to see that ALL have a place to meet. The Lord always takes care of His own and fellowship is always available.
And,”we are going to have about 20 million people meeting on this night”. Again, what night are you talking about? Is this 20 million the “small flock”, the “great company”, or who? It seems like a lot of people to me. Who are they?
Just trying to understand what you are talking about. Like I said, I have never held conversation with a JW to know their thoughts/beliefs. I find it interesting. My only experience has been when a Sr. knocks on my door to tell me the good news and for the most part, most of what they state I believe in already. Trinity, Hell, Immortal Soul. There has never been a sit down conversation.
In Christ,
Br. Chuck
Principles! Jacqueline;
For many years cig smoking was allowed. 1879to 1970,s I believe. Then it was not allowed.
“let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” 2 Cor. 7:1
Does one see Jehovah’s mercy here? Or does one see an excuse to say the Bible doesn’t say no cig smoking?
I was at a house sale the other day, and saw a weegee board for sale. I know it is spelt different. With Bible trained thinking was their a doubt I new the Bible does not say don’t use those. I am sure you wouldn’t even by one. But you can get information on the dangers of them from Jehovah’s organization.
Would someone share with me where C.T. Russell warned us of them. Just curious.
Hank cigarette smoking is not allowed in many restaurants or hardly anywhere here in my part of the US. I don’t think it was Jehovah. The (weegee) board was a no no in my community by most of the mothers when I was a little girl. One lady, a Baptist would tell fortunes and everyone knew it was wrong.
Things that witnesses say are evidence that Jehovah said the organization is what he has approved doesn’t hold up when scrutinized. Perhaps all the people of the different religions in my community was getting their info from the bible. I do think so. So you have no scriptural proof that one must be a witness inside the JW organization to be saved thru armageddon. No scriptural proof that we should look for an organization set up like all good corporations with progress reports, schools training them to sell books and overcome objections of humble people caught off guard at their doors.
You ask what Br. Russell warned against. I never met Br. Russell to talk to him. My grandfather knew him. If you want to know what he and other men wrote you have their books available to search.
I did know Raymond Franz however and I have posted his link for his books yesterday.
The organization GB are alive today and can be questioned. They also write now. I speak only to a person that can answer me face to face. Unless I have had some experience with that person I can not say anything about them personally. That seems to be the theme of some that come to this site.
It is a site for those that want a place of peace to learn some truths from the bible but to also fellowship. Our goal also, especially mine is to listen to them emotionally, comfort them with hope until they can get on their feet and decide how they can worship Jehovah after such abuse from that organization or corporation.
It is not a site for those that are comfortable inside of their organization but can serve as information on what the bible really says about “armageddon”, Heavenly calling, resurrection and most important of all the resurrection and the RANSOM FOR ALL OF MANKIND BORN OF ADAM.
I have no problem with a person remaining in the JW organization but I will help anyone escape if they want also. The mind indoctrination process is wicked indeed. You sir must be an elder or of the elite within this organization and I don’t attempt to make it a problem for those that don’t have a provlem with the governingbody making decisions and rules of conduct for them to follow.
In my field of work I have found some people like that form of religion. Most like a Catho-lic method of worship, where a head group tells them what to do and that releaves them of any responsibility of having a personal relationship with God.
Now since the information age and the internet many that were stuck are finding out more about God and especially Jesus and we are here to help them with that.
I responded to you in the manner I did because you were just making statements that held no weigh if pressurized and advising ones to come back to the organization.
Many just coming on might have felt you were admin for this site and might have feed into your urgings.
We are not Jehovah Witnesses and don’t advocate for it on this site. The address for them is http://www.jw.org. That is where your comments to submit to the organization will do the best good as that is where satified JW read. I just thought I would explain my asking you to do something that I knew you couldn’t do, find scriptural support for an ark like organization to survive armageddon. It is the takedown od society and not judgement on people but institutions. Hindus, protestant, JW, baptist and any not caught in the coflagation will survive to welcome the new King. Thank you Jacqueline