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Was J. F. Rutherford the Grinch Who Stole Christmas?





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In 1927, Joseph Franklin Rutherford declared Christmas to be of pagan origin, and the following year its celebration by Rutherford’s Bible Students was condemned as supporting “Satan’s organization” (The Golden Age, December 14, 1927, “The Origin of Christmas”, pp 178–79. 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1974, p. 147)

Although Brother Russell acknowledged that Jesus was not born on December 25, he urged the brethren not to “quibble” about the date, but rather to join “in celebrating the grand event…” (Zion’s Watch Tower; December 1, 1904, p. 3468 Society Reprints.) As a result, Bethel workers decorated the dining hall for a festive dinner each year. However stern Judge Rutherford decided he would quibble. Pointing to the supposed pagan roots of certain Christmas customs, he instructed the office staff to quit observing the day, so that there was NO Christmas dinner served in 1927 or thereafter. To persuade the brethren to abandon the holiday, Rutherford published a hard-hitting article in the December 12, 1928 issue of the Golden Age.



Christmas does not have pagan origins, but there were winter celebrations that were pagan. Christians are not celebrating a pagan holiday because the pagan holiday was the Saturnal and we are not worshipping the god of Saturn. All of these ancient meanings with their beliefs and associations were lost long ago. When Friday roles around we don’t think about Fria, the goddess of love. On Saturday we don’t think about it as Saturn’s day, but as our day off.



Before the time of Jesus and the Apostles, the Jews adopted two new celebrations – Hanukkah (beginning 139 BC) and Purim (began prior to 400 BC). Jesus and the Apostles never advised against these celebrations. As a matter of fact, the Apostle Paul said, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—” (Col 2:16 NAS95)

Did you know that some pagan religions practiced baptism?  Does not make Christian baptism a sin. Of course not. The practice of baptism in pagan religions seems to have been based on a belief in the purifying properties of water. In ancient Babylon, according to the Tablets of Maklu, water was important as a spiritual cleansing agent in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu. In Egypt, the Book of Going Forth by Day contains a treatise on the baptism of newborn children, which is performed to purify them of blemishes acquired in the womb.

“Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.” (Romans 14:4-6 NAS95)

Just because the world distorts something, that does not make it evil, as long as we avoid the distortions and use it as God intended or in a way that does not go contrary to God’s character and holiness. A good illustration is the beauty of sexual love within the bonds of marriage.

“To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:5 NASB).



In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.

The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the ancient Middle Eastern practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them. Of course, these were not really Christmas trees, because Jesus was not born until centuries later, and the use of Christmas trees was not introduced for many centuries after his birth. Apparently, in Jeremiah’s time the “heathen” would cut down trees, carve or decorate them in the form of a god or goddess, and overlay it with precious metals. Some Christians currently feel that this Pagan practice was similar enough to our present use of Christmas trees that this passage from Jeremiah can be used to condemn both:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (King James Version).

The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, “Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.” This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the “decorated tree” that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world. 10:8-10 also confirms this, where the wooden idols are contrasted with the LORD, who is the true and living God.

We think that the problem with Christmas is not the forgotten pagan celebrations which occurred around the same time, rather it is the over commercialization and replacing Jesus with Santa Claus.



We are NOT saying that the Christian SHOULD celebrate Christmas, but rather that a Christian CAN celebrate Jesus’ birth at Christmas time. We believe it is a matter of conscience. If it bothers your conscience or if it is not about celebrating Jesus birth, then do not participate.

1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 14 show that we should not behave in a way that stumbles our brother to violate his conscience. Paul argues that it is okay to eat meat offered to idols. After all, it is just meat. However, Paul indicates that if it stumbles our brother, we should refrain.

Now isn’t meat offered to idols related to pagan worship? And yet Paul says it is okay to eat it.

In our own case, probably we are buying products from companies that publicly support immoral and anti-biblical views. The point is that if we are not engaging in pagan worship or immortal acts, etc. then we are okay.



The religious rulers in Jesus day were overly legalistic creating a multitude of additional rules above and beyond the Law of Moses. For us there is the same danger of such an intense devotion to the details of the Bible in such a way that we miss the spirit and essential thrust of a passage. Mountains are made out of mole hills and the truth is missed. One is busy counting the number of letters in a sentence rather than listening to its instruction. Jesus said, “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!” (Matt 23:24 NASV)

There is scriptural precedent for commemorating and remembering the birth of Christ. This is in keeping with the events that occurred around the time of Christ’s birth These include:

1. The appearance of the angel of the Lord with the glory of the Lord to announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds (Lk. 2:10-12).

2. The response of the angels at the announcement of Christ’s birth (Lk. 2:13-14).

3. The actions of the shepherds who left their flocks to go and see which was nothing short of a celebration (Lk. 2:15-20).

4. And the arrival of the men from the east bearing gifts as much as a year to two years later (Matt. 2:1-12).



The problem is that to create rules about what holidays that Christians cannot observe is none of our business and a way a ruling body of men can gain control over a group. If the Bible does not forbid something, should we? Does this sound like the rule making of the Scribes and Pharisees by which they controlled people? Matt 23:24 (NASV) “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!”

8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

We should not be adding extra rules and burdens to God’s people that are not laid out in the Bible.

At the council in Jerusalem, the Apostle Peter did not want to burden the Gentile brethren and recommended they only avoid immorality and that which would stumble the potential Jewish converts.

Acts 15:19-21
19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

I am not saying for example that we should celebrate birthdays or Christmas. However on what basis can we condemn other Christians it they want to celebrate? I don’t know of any Christians who worship the Christmas tree. I think the problem is that the holiday tends to be too commercialized and secular. However why not show others by example how to worship Jesus properly, by celebrating Jesus in reading the Biblical account to the family and children, not in promoting Santa Claus at Christmas time? If that bothers you, then don’t do it. But why should we judge and condemn others who consider it a time of remembering Jesus and following the example of gift giving by the wise men and by Jesus gift of his life to mankind?.



Since in ancient times, Easter celebrated the goddess of fertility Ishtar.  However, does that make it a sin for Christians to remember Jesus’ resurrection on the Sunday after the Memorial? 

There is, of course, the New Testament precedent for believers meeting together on Sunday. In essence this is a celebration of the Lord’s resurrection. The early church automatically did this, but Scripture does not command us to do so. In fact, the early church at first met daily and took the Lord’s Supper daily, but we don’t do that today. Why not? Because these are not binding. We are not under the Law. Believers meet on Sunday because of its significance and because the early church set a precedent for it, but it was never commanded in the Bible. Believers did it out of love and adoration for the risen Savior.

The point is this: If the early church could celebrate the resurrection without a specific command from God, only the spirit of legalism or the letter of the law would forbid the celebration of Christ’s birth as a special season of joy and adoration. Ultimately, the issue is not the season, it’s the attitude and reason behind it and the distortion of it. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.

We do not know the exact date Jesus of Jesus birth, although we think it was approximately October 1. So we could not really celebrate his exact birth date and know it for sure. Interestingly, December 25th would be the approximate date of Jesus conception, so it is certainly a time that relates to his birth.

Those who want to celebrate, they can set an example by placing the focus where it belongs, on our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

“But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”” (Lu 2:10-14 NAS95)


165 comments to Was J. F. Rutherford the Grinch Who Stole Christmas?

  • david brock

    paster russel was wrong when he said jesus was not born 12/25 .. he claims with multiple scriptures that the shepperds were in the field attending to their flock when jesus was born. well that is true and also jesus was born in the desert and there were shepperds in the field in december too. russel claims that winter is too cold for shepperds in the field. that is very untrue. i am living in a similar desert in az ,yuma and it is dec 28th and there are sheep out here in the fields. i was born dec 26th 2 am 1951 and raised on the TRUTH the dawn bible students ,we are russelites. the basis of the religion still holds true. my god is an all loving god and even HITLER will be resurrected. see even tainted man will give three strikes before you are out so why wouldn’t god? of course he would. the first strike is now with you living.it is a taste 2nd is the resurrection.1000 yrs living with god and no satan. third is the unchaining of satan to see if you faulter back away from god..satan is given 100 yrs to hoodwink you again. if satan is successful you will live with satan in hell the firey pit.

  • Shalom sister Marjo.

    Nice to see you here. I am Kent from Sweden, I heard from Jaquelin that you live in Finland.

    It would be nice to communicate with you.

    You can reach me on skype: kent157

    Lord Bless.

  • Marjo

    I left Jehovah Witnesses 9 years ago. After that I’ve always felt, that I did wrong. But now I’ve been reading everything in a new light. Rutherford wasnt clean as he claimed. Witnesses doesnt seem to see that. I have always thought if Witnesses weren’t messengers of God, then whom did they got the light for revelations book to see what it meant. Im happy that I saw the truth of that group. Now I can spend the christmas. Ive always told to my children that Santa Claus isnt real, so there is no problem for that. Ive teached them to write their present wish list for us. Now Im much happier also 😊

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Marjo welcome and thanks for sharing your journey. Was there something specific that caused you to think about the organizatiion?
      I have gone through so many revelation books while I was a witness. I refuse to go to book study when the last one came out, because it was forever changing their truths, nothing was reliable.
      You are welcome here we have many opportunities for fellowship by internet, phone or there may be brothers meeting near you. We would love to hear from you next Saturday on the international testimony meeting. To meet ones that have come out and doing well spiritually have proved to be a blessing for us all.
      I left 8 years ago. Jacqueline

      • Marjo

        In the beginning when I joined to the group there wasn’t. But when my mother left from the groub, I felt left alone. Not even the members of congregation weren’t there to support me. Some how I felt they were avoiding me. That’s when I started to thinking other wise. That this is how it shoudln’t be. If they teach love, then why do they push people away? That doesn’t make any sense. Then I met my husband whom I’ve been with 9 years and now we have 3 lovely children together. I really don’t know do you have any group here in Finland, because that’s where I’m from.

        • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

          Marjo, thanks for sharing. I am so happy for you that you could move on and have a happy family. I think we have to go through the life experiences that God allows before we can approach him in earnest. It is a teacher, so now you are ready.
          I am curiousnd don’t answer if you are uncomfortable, please. I am the mother that has left and all (3) of my children are still in. So maybe you can help those of us in this position (many). Did you feel bettered by your mother for leaving without you also leaving? Did you shun her? And finally how is she now? We can hear the mind of the child for a change😄.
          Also the brothers will see where you are from and will answer you. Zionsherald is watching and I will go tell Kent from Sweden to come on and help us find brothers near you.
          You will find freedom here for your family. You and your husband are in control of your life and the children. When you see how you will eventually be able to read and understand the Bible because of the help of the Holy Spirit, it will amaze you.
          Let me run over and tell Kent to come on now if he can. I will Skype him. He is one of the host on the Saturday testimony meetings. Be right back.

          • Marjo

            I wasn’t dealing much with my mother when she left, but only in financial things. But I was feeling alone in the congregation after that, so I didn’t really care was I there or not. I felt I was air for them. When I didn’t go to the meetings anymore, then they were watching my back and what I was doing, watching my apartment, mailbox etc. I wasn’t left from the group yet when I moved together with my boyfriend who is my husband now. When there was his lastname also in my mailbox, they had left me a note saying: “why don’t you come to the meetings anymore? Why do you have another lastname in your mailbox?”. That was the final thing when I had enough. It was like they were stalking me instead of helping. I felt really sick all of that.

            But now that all is history. My mother is feeling great. She is enjoying being a grandmother. Especially now we have 3 months old babyboy, 8 and 7 years old daughters.

            • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

              Marjo Br. Kent told me how to pronounce your name. He also will come on later and give you that side of the world’s internet meetings. He says you are either 1 hour behind or ahead of them. Whereas here we are flipped in time.
              While I was speaking to Kent by Skype one of my daughter in laws texted me and sent love smiley faces and I got off and we spoke by phone. Our relationship is back, just that quick. I got to think Jehovah read into my reply to you???
              It warms my heart that you and your mother are enjoying the blessing of having grandchildren. I often say if I knew grands would be so precious, I would have had them first.lol
              The stalking is crazy, all of us have experienced it at one time or another. Mine was over the top and I ended up in a Civil court and got a restraining order against the entire watchtower society. I stayed 9 years after that court battle but they made my life a living torture chamber. It has to be the organization for both and all to experience the same thing worlds apart.
              And like you, now that is in the past! Thank you for posting this morning as I am convinced it had some bearing on the call from my daughter in law. 1 down and two more to go.
              Please express your love to your mother. My sister in law is from Finland and has been a Jehovah witness for 84 years or more. The family was a very old one from Finland, her name is Taina and she has a sister named Ingrid around 69. Taina left to go to Bethel and married my brother and both were missionaries in Benin (Dahomey) southwest Africa. Your mom might have heard of the family.
              The meet and greet testimony meeting for your time zone is when Kent host at 10 am Chicago time. He will help you convert to your time zone. There are lots of brothers on hook ups on Sunday in your time zones. He will come on to blog to you after he get back to Stockholm tomorrow. He is at his country home now and it is 6:30 pm there. I hope you are enjoying the articles on this site.
              Br. Peter has learned about witnesses and have tried to post information that presents the Bible’s viewpoint on subjects that witnesses have a lot of knowledge about and basic truths. Feel free to ask questions about any of the articles on here and give your opinion or add to it. That is the way the association of Bible student brothers work.
              Tell your mom I am sending love to her as she kisses that little grandbaby. The two girls are just the right age for a grandmother. Tell her I have a collection of over 40 dollhouses (maybe I went overboard a little) and 200 Barbie dolls of different body shapes and enjoy with my grands when I can see them or they visit. Take Care

              • Marjo

                Nothing isn’t impossible for Jehovah. When I was reading bible, I prayed that I could find a group where He’s spirit is effecting. Then I came across with this site. I’m glad that I did. God bless you all <3

                • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

                  Thanks for the blessing.
                  My husband said be like friends of God in the Bible, be very specific I wanted it to be smaller first of all, I prayed to him. I said understand that there are 2 salvations on Earth and Heaven. That they know about the bride of 144,000. I prayed to him that I could hang with a small group no matter what other beliefs they have, I was desperate but happy now. I owe my literal life to him during that time.
                  We were told all Bible students were dead so I didn’t think to mention that in prayer. I found Christerdelphians, Unitarian, Nazarenes invited me locally to meet with them when some clients told them about my looking for a small group. I along with another person kept seeing group photos of people that looked like witnesses. This site wasn’t created until I found the Bible students in 2010 and begged for help. The Chicago Bible students acted immediately although they weren’t sure of what was happening. I called a number on the internet 1800Godsplan and was brought to Christ in a few hours by this beautiful sister. So I know God answers prayers. So many of my particulars were present. I know it is getting late there so take Care.

  • I am so happy to find this info! I left the sicking Jehovah’s wittness when I found out about how the watchtower has lied for centeries about the so called end of this system, 1914, 1915, 1975, then 1914 this generation by no means will will pass, it’s all lies. the scriptue in Duet: says if someone says they are a profit and it doesnt come true they are a false profit and to stay away. The Wittness talk so badly about other relgions taking in money but the TRUTH is the WATCTOWER IS RAKING IN BILLIONS AND HAS SLAVE LABOR BY NONE OTHER THAN THE WITTNESS KIDS. I am free of this cult. I left for my children so they could have the holidays & we had a BLAST! I feel so sorry for JW kiddo’s. They actually spank their neworns for crying at meeting, I saw it with my own eyey, sicko’s.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hello Cindy robertson and welcome. I feel your joy. The spankings, I have seen it of very young babies also, sad. So glad you enjoy holidays with your children. Rituals is what humans do, we celebrate and show love, it separates us from the animals. The begging for money is something I thought I would never see, I am thinking the pedophile cases are taking it’s toll on their finances and the huge undertaking of the Vatican – Warwick property started off as a money pit with the remediation cleanup.
      Read thru the articles on this site and see if they make any sense. Ask questions or comment and someone will dialogue back with you. You will notice that the witnesses put a different spin on what the Bible really says in order to control it’s members. It is so different that most witnesses say, wow, we must be right because only we can see this point. Somne of the points are known and taught by other religions and always have been. Some are just distortions of the truth to make witnesses feel special. It is clever and it works.
      Ask a question if you want to or you make join us tonight on the study. Take Care.

      • IDK your name but glad you responded. I spent so many years in that cult and any time I had questions I was looked down upon. such as why didn’t JEHOVHAH start the new system when he flooded the earth, Noah and his sons & wives were faithful. It angers me that a God of love would allow a entire new generation to come to this day only to say only JW will make it at Armaggedon & to the 1,0000 yr. reign ONLY to clean up all the dead bodies of all the earth, then let Satan out to test them again? Thats not the God I want to serve & I’m angry I spent so much of my life stuck on stupid. My daughter was murdered at 21 yrs. none of them came to be with me. I was told to not talk about her that it was upsetting people. My son was only 16.I asked an elder to come talk to him. he told me if he wanted to know about the truth he could come to the kh. when I lost my home of 17 yrs i asked for help. they told me to sleep in my car. they are monsters

  • Olatunji Samuel-Nigeria

    Christmas is purely from pagan origin.True Christians such as Jehovah`s Witnesses do not participate in such festivities that are associated with pagan origin. Additionally , Jesus has never instructed any of His followers to celebrate such. The Bible should be strictly adhere to when it comes to serving God.

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      Hi Olatunji Samuel and thanks for commenting. I will not defend the holiday Christmas as celebrated by pagans because I am not familiar with this practice hundreds of years ago. The wedding ring is another one that I know or have heard that it has pagan origin but am not familiar with it but I wear one and most witnesses do. In fact quite a few of the everyday practices we have might have pagan origins since there were no CHRISTIANS before Christ. Everyone but a Jew would be pagan and all the things they brought to the world would have pagan origin as everything mostly was to or blessed first by a God. That is why Paul says not to be concerned about things offered to idols. Everything non Jewish before Christ is of Pagan origin in the strictest sense.
      This is an article about Christian liberty for an individual to decide not an organization: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2015/12/18/saturday-dec-10-christian-liberty-and-jehovahs-witnesses/
      I choose to concentrate on scriptural matters when wondering if I am pleasing Jehovah. As a witness we were made to feel things like not celebrating Christmas identified you as a Christian when really gossip, class distinction, pedophilia and a host of other things that the Bible speaks specifically against are rampant within the organization. Witnesses brag that over 60,000 are disfellowshipped yearly for adultery and fornication mostly which shows more emphasis would be better spent on helping one to overcome these tendencies that are rampant within the religion, rather than controlling what they do as a family. The celebration or not of the birth of Christ is not a salvation issue and God won’t kill you. This is my take on the subject and I will consider the BIRTH OF THE SAVIOR with all other people during this season. IT IS A GOOD THING. Thank you

    • Peter K. (admin)

      Olatunji Samuel-Nigeria – Did you read the article? Which statements in the article did you disagree with? If the Angels celebrated Jesus birth (Luke 2:10-14), why would it be wrong for us to do so?

      Romans 14:4-6 (NASV), “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.”

    • Anon

      Can you show me where Jesus commanded you to celebrate the wedding anniversary?

      • Chuck (Bible Student)

        I haven’t found where he prohibits it. I also have not found where he commands me to drink coffee. But I do. I have yet to find where he prohibits it.
        😉 Merry Christmas and Happy New Year all!

    • olatunji Samuel-Nigeria,

      You say Jehovah’s Wittness are the only true christians & don’t celebrate pagan holidays such as Christmas? But they wear wedding rings & that’s pagan not to mention they follow the Watchtower who was founded by Charles Taz Russel, once were called Russellites! JW use the WT more than they use their own version of the Bible. A real Christian knows better than to to FOLLOW A bunch of men & answer only to JESUS I will pray you get saved.

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        Cindy hello, I just got to a computer to see your replies. Wow, I know you are telling the truth about their behavior on the death of your daughter because they have no mercy. To say people are getting upset because you talk about it is right on the mark for an elder. Some people might say I can’t believe what you are saying, but we have been trying to tell the world that this is what the people caught in the religion experience.
        I am so sorry to hear about your dear child. Your sixteen year old might still need help even if it has been some years. You might also. Have you gone for professional help? Please do. Please, get your son to a professional to talk it out. It might have been a blessing he didn’t talk to the elders. I am going to go out on a limb and say, Witness elders might be the worse religious spiritual men on this planet or at least in the top ten worse men to go to for spiritual healing.
        Rutherford is the founder of the Jehovah witnesses in about 1931 he took that name. Russell was a Bible student, they are not the same religions at all.
        There are some who try to combine the two but they are polar opposites.
        But that is neither here nor there because as you keep mentioning God is who we have the questions for.
        At the destruction of the first world of mankind the angels had taken over and produced a hybrid family and they were violent men. The Bible says that Noah was a righteous man and because of his righteousness his family was saved with him and mankind progeny on this earth could continue. Jesus had been promised back in Eden to Ransom mankind, any that might have died in the flood will come back, but not the children of the fallen angels and they had no babies because they (Nephillim)( couldn’t produce. We can rest assured that all destroyed in the flood of Adam will be resurrected because Jesus ransomed Adam and thus all his offspring. We can only go by what is written that every thought of those destroyed were bad. In Sodom those are ransomed when Jesus finally came and paid the price and every man regardless of how he lived will get a fair chance in Millennium to make a choice while perfectly able to do so. Then and only then will God go back to the beginning and Judge each person individually.
        I know it seems like a long time, but Cindy this is where faith comes in and with it HOPE. I feel so sorry that you have lost your hope. I know why, because a reasonable person will reason it out like you have. Especially after being a part of such a distorted religion. Sometimes it seems to have been of the devil himself.
        You hit it on the head when you said MONEY. That is what drives the governing body and Rutherford when he formed the corporation for profit with free labor in the name of religion.
        I will not answer for GOD because he is GOD but I have come to know that he really knows from beginning to end! Your children think 4 hrs at school is a long time but you and I say that’s nothing. God views time differently than us but like us he lets a thing play out. At the right time he will act, he already knows when it will be crucial to step in and let Jesus save Israel and mankind so they will realize you can’t do it without help. More people will cheer for him and they will be in a better frame of mind when he saves mankind.
        JESUS AND GOD ARE THE GOOD GUYS AT ARMAGEDDON! Not the bad guys as you and I was told. Jehovah witnesses are not special at armageddon to survive any more than a baptist or an atheist. People will survive that great time of trouble.
        You mentioned their own version of the Bible, Beware when a religion has to have their own special Bible, different from all others. It is rigged to uphold their doctrines.
        We are not Jehovah witnesses, our beliefs in scripture are entirely different from theirs. Keep talking, I like your getting it all out because you are saying well what some us have been trying to say.

      • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

        Cindy I see you are within the boundaries where I can talk to you by phone. Would this be okay with you? I AM JUST REALLY CONCERNED over your not receiving help with the death of your daughter. I am not a mental health person but I do deal with one aspect of PTSD, post traumatic stress syndrome. Maybe there is some way I can help or point you to help. If it is okay I will email you my phone number and I am available to talk. If not, let’s do it here so all can benefit, but keep talking, get it out! That is the first step to healing. We all have had to heal on here. We all to various degrees have been touched by the tentacles of the present day governing body of the witnesses.
        You however have been harmed in a horrible way. I am so glad you are still willing to express yourself. Get mad at GOD, he can bear it and Jesus will intervene for you and send you help of the holy spirit. You are welcome here. Sincerely Jacqueline

  • QNA ....

    Peter, I don’t know how anyone else feels, but I am happy to see you have invited Anna back on. Her comments have helped me to see how both sides viewed the scriptures. It also made for interesting reading! I hope she does decide to comment again.

    • Peter K. (admin)

      QNA – Thanks. I wish we had more JWs who wanted to come on board and engage us in an honest back and forth discussion on a particular issue. It gives everyone an opportunity to contrast the points of view and consider the scriptural evidence for themselves.

      What I like about Anna is that she really believes what she says and has the courage to defend it… and she drives me crazy! LOL

    • Jacqueline (Bible Student)

      QNA, we didn’t have a problem with Anna as we admitted she gave the opportunity to show the differences. At some point the site lost control when David came on and some comments we must remember are not printed that everyone makes. So the decision was based on getting to know who we are talking to.
      I like the fact you were honest and came on and talked with us. We not only have gotten to know you but love and admire you. You are indeed searching but adding so much to the comments and I for one appreciate it.
      When persons are very vocal but hide what or who they are it raises flags. I am very human and will not waste my time debating if that is the sole purpose. Anna did say in one unpublished comment that she thought we were her long lost brothers the Bible Students. I would have loved to have seen that sort of expression in the beginning. We often have persons come on the site to disrupt conversations like Anna’s where we are able to go back and forth with what was really believed in the early years before Br. Rutherford took control.
      Being human I readily admit since I went to court with the society I have proof of who the top people really are and how they will behave so it influences how much JW organizational talk I will tolerate. I love scriptural discussions but also talk to upbuild and comfort. The site has so many different aspects to it.
      Once we functioned very well when our friend died and her son needed help. We were able for me to talk to him and other conversations went on right around it. That is the way a Christian site runs, it does not forget the humanity and the fact that there are hurt ones that have something to say. This site has that added aspect to never forget the indigent. I think this time we have had to regroup has been beneficial and I look forward to the conversations with Jehovah Jesus and Holy Spirit in mind.

  • Brettstone

    I found this.. And recall I believe Ana bringing up that Bro Woodworth of the Dawn Publication as the one to bring an end to the Christmas celebration at Bethel..,
    Below is what I read on JWFacts and is a quote from a JW yearbook..


    Yearbook 1975 p.147
    “What caused the Bible Students to stop celebrating Christmas? Richard H. Barber gave this answer: “I was asked to give an hour talk over a [radio] hookup on the subject of Christmas. It was given December 12, 1928, and published in The Golden Age #241 and again a year later in #268. That talk pointed out the pagan origin of Christmas. After that, the brothers at Bethel never celebrated Christmas again.”

    • Jacqueline

      Brettstone I saw that one also. So we are following one man and his thoughts, he has an opinion but a Christian I feel we can make a decision and he could for his family. Thanks for finding that. there are others claiming they were the cause of witnesses not celebrating but they will protect a pedophile.
      I don’t agree with all the commercialism of any of the holidays as it makes a lot of people go in debt but still it brings a lot of people joy to end their year giving to their loved ones and starting a new year. I don’t think the kingdom is halted by their personal decision to go with the commercial, it’s their money not the witnesses. Although this would take money away from the society at that time. No one ever says to a witness to celebrate Christmas but they are always trying to control others with their beliefs, which are okay for them.
      I also believe the public and Christians have the personal decision to celebrate the birth of our Saviour at this time, not all Christian religions do this at this time but in January, which shows the paganism isn’t in play here. All of everything we do came from pagans or non Jewish people.
      Jehovah is aware of all things past, present and future. He knew about Christmas and would have I felt put a prohibition there if it offended him and affected our accepting Christ.
      I heard from my father that he surrounded himself with men that put down rules to control people but my father ran his family and took blood in in 1957 because he felt God would not want him to die and leave my mother with 9 children under the age of 17 just to please Rutherford’s new law.
      He was angry at the Catholic Church for telling about his book and he was jailed. He vowed take their members away and he went after catholics, drawing pictures of the pope and the bishops etc. Blasting their doctrine and idols. He should have been cleaning his own house as it is reported there was a liquor problem and woman problem in his own life while married.
      My personal decision is if God didn’t think it neccesary to prohibit in the law code or elsewhere I won’t add it as something he says not to do. To me it is like wearing high heels for women, lipstick, pants for women with the zipper in front. (google that one and go what???).
      If they can eat food sacrificed to idols, because an idol is nothing, then I can certainly celebrate the birth of Christ like the shepherd, wise men and the Angels. Refraining if it will harm my brother as in a Jehovah witness household. I give gifts to my grand but say nothing about Christmas as we have done this in our family for 60 or more years and all our friends that are witnesses with little children. We stop about 12yrs old. So they go to school and have a toy. After all are over 12 the average witness kids doesn’t care in our family. Just a thought.

      • Brettstone

        I agree with you Jacqueline..
        I believe it to be a personal choice by conscience…
        I wouldn’t condem anyone for having the liberty in Christ to make their own decisions..

        • Jacqueline

          Brettstone, I found this to be interesting. I am going to just put things we use everyday in google and see where they originate. Non Jewish things of course. This is mentioned on non religious sites too but I felt this said it better.

          There is no wedding ring in the Old Testament. http://jesus-messiah.com/html/wedding_rings.html

          The wedding ring comes from paganism. It cannot be found in the Old or New Testaments. There was no practice among early Christians to wear finger rings as a sign of marriage or an engagement. Pope Gregory 1, in 860AD decreed that as a required statement of nuptial intent, the groom to be had to give his intended an engagement ring. He further decreed the ring be of gold to signify financial sacrifice. The first diamond engagement ring is the one given by King Maximillian in 1477 to Mary of Burgundy. Wedding rings can be traced to idols and heathen religions. It is not just the image of the idol we are commanded not to possess, but rather any part of the idol itself. Thus, to make ones self after the image of the idol is to practice idolatry. All images of false gods and goddesses show the use of earrings, finger rings, bracelets, nose rings, and other jewelry. Where do we find this same practice associated with the God of the Bible? Did Jesus wear jewelry? Did the Apostles and early Christians? The answer is no!

          The wedding ring is first a circle which is said to mean eternal or unending. Marriages were never eternal in the Scriptures but rather until death. Afterward a spouse could be married again. The idea then of eternal marriages symbolised by the ring is not Biblical. This meaning of the ring is false. So the ring gives a false testimony. The wedding ring then is not representative of the true union of the bridegroom and his bride. The home of the couple is more a witness and testimony of marriage then a wedding ring. For it is in the home the marriage is honored and sustained.

          The wedding ring originated in Babylon, the cradle of civilization. The most ancient ring discovered there is in the shape of the eternal serpent. The image of the serpent biting its tail to form the circle of the ring is an ancient satanic symbol (***satanic ouroboros) . The same symbol is used by the Theosophy Cult. Satan as the serpent, that great dragon of Revelation 12, has by this symbol joined a man and a woman under his cult. God is not the serpent symbol of any wedding ring, nor is he the symbol of the wedding ring in any fashion. We may trace the ring not to the God of the Bible but to the accuser of the brethren. Where is there any ring that symbolizes God? Did God provide wedding rings for Adam and Eve?
          Remove this idolatrous symbol from the Church and the Pastor is accused of being legalistic, against marriage, encouraging adultery and lust. The Pastor’s Church is labeled a cult. The fact is, over 70% of married spouses who commit fornication do not remove their wedding rings prior to the act, during the act, or after the act. Wedding rings have not stopped one act of adultery. Not one husband or wife has said: “I cannot commit adultery because I have my wedding ring on.”

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