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Dear Peter K.
I reply to your comment below (Peter K. (admin) March 5, 2023 at 6:23 am) in response to some of my comments regarding baptism:
The Holy Bible (AV / KJV) states:
‘And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’ (Acts 8:36-37)*
***To be clear, I am aware that some consider verse 37 to be spurious; however, I do not share that opinion – the available evidence for the authenticity of this reading, I believe, being sufficient (see ‘footnote’).***
At any rate, the Scriptural requirement for baptism was simply a belief (with all the heart) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The eunuch was reading from Isaiah, and Philip preached Jesus to him. The baptism wasn’t complicated by requiring knowledge of many different things before the baptism. And a simple question enquiring about believing Jesus Christ to be Messiah – the Son of God – was all that was necessary for the eunuch to be baptised. There is even the occasion where certain Gentiles were baptised with the Spirit *before* the symbol of water baptism was conducted (Acts 10:47).
Nevertheless, the ‘Broad Unsectarian Questions’ posed by Pastor Russell, it’s true, shouldn’t be a problem for any Christian – and I’d go so far as to say, including the average Jehovah’s Witness (try asking various Witnesses these questions the next time you get an opportunity and see what response you get).
It’s been established previously that entry into the Court condition is done through the ‘door’ of faith (which is Christ – through faith in Christ). You previously acknowledged that the average Witness has probably taken this step, but now you appear to be trying to backtrack using the following quaint argument:
‘So I ask when a Jehovah’s Witness is baptized, are they giving their life over primarily to Jehovah or to the JW Organization? I cannot make that judgment, however I note that free discussion and even disagreement with JW Org is not permitted in Bible Studies at the Kingdom Hall and therefore it seems to me that many congregation members are placing the authority of the Governing Body and JW Org above their own conscience in the study of scriptures and recognition of that as an authority above JW Org.
Hence, it would seem to me, that JWs who in their heart are submitting to Jehovah as supreme over the teachings of JW Org are in the Court condition, however JWs who at baptism are placing the authority of the organization above their own honest study to and submission to the teaching of scriptures, that in this case, I wonder if such a brother or sister would be in the Court condition. Beyond that, I would make no judgements of any particular brother or sister, leaving that in the hands of Jehovah. Certainly, I would give any JW I meet the benefit of the doubt.’
You appear to insert ‘free discussion’ of Scripture, disagreement with ‘JW Org’, etc., into the requirements to get into the Court condition. Apparently, because many Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the so-called Governing Body has been appointed to a position of leadership, and submit to the ‘guidance’ given by the GB, this somehow is another block to being able to come into a Court condition. It all seems to be a bit of a stretch… kinda ridiculous, actually.
Currently, there are many sincere Christians still inside the various systems of Babylon – many of these will, at some point, make up the Great Company.
‘Those who reverence human theories and systems more than the Word of the Lord, will not come out until Babylon falls and they come through the “great tribulation.”‘ D268; Harvest Gleanings 718:5
All of these systems have some type of hierarchical system (Roman Catholics, Anglican, etc.)— are all these barred from the Court condition due to the ‘reasoning’ you presented, or is it just the JWs?
And what about ‘Bible Students’? Many Bible Students use Pastor Russell’s writings – Volumes, Reprints, etc., as an authority (a final authority).
Frank Shallieu’s New Testament Studies [Matthew 23:10]:
‘Even with Bro. Russell, the title of “Pastor” has created an atmosphere over many years where brethren may indeed be Russellites. If the Bible said one thing and Pastor Russell said another, some would consider the Pastor’s view right. This should not be the case, for he was not and apostle.’
[1 Thessalonians 2:9]:
‘Similarly, some in the Truth movement are accused of being Russellites, which may or may not be true. The responsibility lies with the individual to make sure he is responding to God’s call and not to the personal magnetism or capability of the one who first presented the truth to him.’
So, if we were to fairly apply your ‘logic’, or ‘test’, as outlined in your comment, could we apply it to ‘Bible Students’?
‘So I ask when a [Bible Student] is baptized, are they giving their life over primarily to Jehovah or to [Pastor Russell’s writings]? I cannot make that judgment, however I note that free discussion and even disagreement with [Pastor Russell’s writings] is not permitted in [some] Bible Studies [in some Ecclesias] and therefore it seems to me that [some Ecclesia] members are placing the authority of [Pastor Russell] and [his writings] above their own conscience in the study of scriptures and recognition of that as an authority above [Scripture].
Hence, it would seem to me, that [Bible Student] who in their heart are submitting to Jehovah as supreme over the teachings of [Pastor Russell] are in the Court condition, however [Bible Students] who at baptism are placing the authority of [Pastor Russell] above their own honest study to and submission to the teaching of scriptures, that in this case, I wonder if such a brother or sister would be in the Court condition. Beyond that, I would make no judgements of any particular brother or sister, leaving that in the hands of Jehovah. Certainly, I would give any [Bible Student] I meet the benefit of the doubt.’
***Now, I personally have the utmost respect for Pastor Russell, and what he wrote. I merely present this to demonstrate how ridiculous I find your argument.***
Finally, I’m of the opinion that some ‘Bible Students’ (particularly former JWs who now associate with others in the Movement)have spread this nonsense that Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptised into an organisation. Some, I believe, view Jehovah’s Witnesses with disdain.
I recall even reading a ‘testimony’ from a certain ‘Bible Student’ who was ‘rebaptised’, stating something like he and his wife (bother former JWs) were rebaptised to ‘wash the JW off them’.
Some probably also resent Jehovah’s Witnesses due to the history between the two groups and the Watchtower Society — the results of which includes, I think, this doubting the sincerity and validity of the vow taken by Jehovah’s Witnesses at baptism (I realise that there are many tares in Babylon).
I’d recommend that ‘Beyond Watchtower’, and any ‘Friends of Jehovah Witnesses’, instead of seeking to excuse a professing Christian (regardless of group or denomination) from keeping their vow (telling them it’s not valid – causing them to doubt it – perhaps even endangering their – those who become deniers, opposers, etc. – everlasting future), the better course, I believe, would be to encourage such individuals to **keep** that vow. Help them to see that they can progress from justification (the Court condition)and potentially go on into the Holy and Most Holy.
‘We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.'(2 Corinthians 6:1)
Well, I will leave it there as I think I’ve made my position clear. I wish you all the best. May the Lord bless your efforts to reach sincere Jehovah’s Witnesses who ‘hunger and thirst after righteousness’ (Matthew 5:6).
_____________________________________________
*[This verse appears in whole or in part, in the works of Irenaeus (190 A.D.), Tertullian — (200 A.D.), Cyprian (255 A.D.), Pacian (370 A.D.), Ambrose, uncial manuscript E, Old Latin manuscripts, Old Syriac manuscripts, plus the Armenian and Georgian translations. It is also found in cursive 629…(from) the dates of the ‘Church Fathers’ listed find the verse being quoted one hundered to two hundred years before the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus were written—personally, I am not persuaded the Sinaiticus is even a genuine manuscript (Constantine Simonides claims to have authored this manuscript about 1839 — See the book James A. Farrer, Literary Forgeries (1907)]
Steven – Thanks for some good comments. I am not able to keep up with you with my full time job and other time commitments. I will respond as I am able to your most recent and some previous comments. I have some comments to offer for consideration and hope to give a more complete response later.
You said, “the Scriptural requirement for baptism was simply a belief (with all the heart) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.”
Let me add some additional considerations. God can read the heart. What if a congregation attender is caught up in the emotional experience of worship, singing, friendship, recognition, flattery, feels peer pressure and/or wants group acceptance? Will God contractually accept this baptism if He knows that the “consecration” or “dedication” is not real and will not be sustained over time and that the baptized member will later go back into the world?
Does God accept and spirit beget every Christian in every denominational Church who is baptized and believes in Jesus with their heart?
John 6:44, 65 (NKJV) “44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him… 65… no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Is not Holy Spirit begettal the evidence or seal that God has contractually accepted the baptism?
Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
What is heart belief?
James 2:19-20 (ESV) “19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?”
What is entailed in the contractual commitment of baptism?
Matt 16:24 (ESV) “Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”
Mark 10:38-39 (NKJV) “38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Can you drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” 39 They said to Him, “We are able.” So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized.” (see also Matt 20:22-23)
Sorry I don’t have more time right now. Thanks for your good comments and questions.
Dear Peter K,
Thanks for the reply and additional comments.
Firstly, on the matter of baptism, I provide a Scriptural example of one who was baptised, and upon what grounds (it’s nothing I’ve said). If you disagree with this, then you are disagreeing with the Scriptural examples of those who were baptised – not me. Provide Scripture to back up your claims.
Q. ‘Does God accept and spirit beget every Christian in every denominational Church who is baptized and believes in Jesus with their heart?’
A. I doubt it (I can’t say who is and isn’t Spirit Begotten – inside or outside of Babylon – and so I’m not going to go around telling folks – unlike some – their faith in God and Christ is insincere – I’m going to try and encourage them to progress along the lines of Present Truth).
However, as far as I’m aware, we were not talking about every Jehovah’s Witness (or others in Babylon) becoming spirit begotten. You made the claim (an opinion shared by ‘Bible Students’, it appears) that Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptised to an Organisation. I pointed out that most Jehovah’s Witnesses are, at the very least, in a *justified* position as ‘friends’ of God. You appeared to agreed to this – initially.
Q. ‘Is not Holy Spirit begettal the evidence or seal that God has contractually accepted the baptism?’
A. Firstly, to which baptism are you referring? Did I not provide a verse in my last comment whereby some were spirit begotten (sealed by the Spirit) *before* water baptism (Acts 10:47)? Haven’t we already confirmed that water baptism is only a symbol? I thought you understood that there was a difference between the different conditions that a believer can be in – the Camp, the Court, etc., etc.
F191: ‘Elsewhere we have pointed out what constitutes the signs, the evidences that we are the children of God; namely, our begetting of the holy Spirit, our sealing, our quickening (Vol. V, Chap. ix.).’
Why are you now attempting to conflate the two, to make it appear that I, by suggesting that most Jehovah’s Witnesses who are baptised by water symbol , in a *justified* state (through faith), are all ‘spirit begotten’ (consecrated). I never made such a claim, and have repeatedly stated that many of these individuals are in a justified condition and need to be *helped* to continue forward so as not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1) Some probably are ‘consecrated’ to the fullest degree (again, I’m not going to go around telling such and such a Jehovah’s Witness that their vow is invalid – I’ll leave that to others. Rather, I will seek to encourage them to uphold that vow).
Consider: R3635: page 287 — SOME INTERESTING QUESTIONS ANSWERED. THE THREE PARTS.:
‘WHO MAY PROPERLY MEMORIALIZE?
Question.—Is it correct to say that the “sacrament,” the Memorial Supper, symbolizes the appropriation of Christ’s righteousness by faith in his sacrifice? If so, has not a person who is justified by faith, but who has not yet made a consecration, a perfect right to partake of the emblems?
Answer.—The only object of justification in this present age is to fit or enable the justified one to make his consecration and whoever does not so use his justification as to obtain thereby consecration and begettal to the new nature is to that extent receiving the grace of God in vain—failing to make use of it. Just as though a wealthy friend should give a poorer one an order on his store for goods, saying: “Upon the presentation of this order by John Blank or Mary Blank at my store at any time during the year 1905, he shall be privileged to purchase such goods as he may desire at one-tenth of their actual price, ninety per cent. of all their purchases being charged to me.” If John Blank or Mary Blank failed to present this order during the year, and thus failed to buy any goods during the specified period, the order would be practically valueless to them, because they did not take advantage of its favorable terms. Just so now, any who are justified by faith have the privilege of consecrating themselves and being accepted in the Beloved, and thereby the privilege of obtaining the exceeding great and precious promises at the small cost of sacrificing present privileges; and whoever does not so use his justification during this age to obtain the high calling may be said to have profited nothing by it, for it lapses with the end of this life, and must be renewed, if at all, in the next life, upon the same conditions and terms as to all the remainder of humanity.
Applying this to the Memorial Supper: the Memorial Supper not only represents the eating of the bread, the symbol of our justification, but it also represents the partaking of the cup, fellowship in the sufferings of Christ. These two thoughts are linked together in the symbol, and may not be sundered in our application of it. It would not, therefore, be proper for any to participate in the Memorial Supper except such as have not only been justified by partaking of Christ’s righteousness, but who additionally have become joint-heirs in sacrifice with him, drinking of his cup.’—End quote
Thus, it can be seen that many who are baptised in water are baptised in recognition of their faith in Jesus Christ, and enter the ‘gate’ (Christ Jesus), through faith – entering the Court condition — again being JUSTIFIED (some might say ‘tentatively).
Therefore, effectively, it is probably right for most Jehovah’s Witnesses *not* to partake the Memorial Emblems. However, a problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses is that *some* may well have made a *full* consecration – even at the point of water baptism – but because they are being misled by the current Watchtower Society, they may incorrectly understand the situation (this is highly likely to be the case). The Jehovah’s Witness thus continues to believe S/he has an ‘earthly’ hope, but is, nevertheless, **fully consecrated** to the Lord (that’s not something for me or you to decide, but something the individual must come to appreciate – I do realise this is and opinion that will be hard for some to swallow).
Thus, to answer your question directly: NO, Holy Spirit begettal is *not* the evidence or seal that God has contractually accepted a water baptism. The Spirit begettal or seal is a sign (so fars as I understand it – and expressing it in a very basic way) that God has accepted the individual who has **consecrated fully** – undergoing the real baptism. Not that anyone can easily discern who is and is not ‘spirit begotten’, or consecrated (this includes the average ‘Bible Student’; For the most part, we simply take people at their word (as well as the fruitage their life is producing).
F441: ‘Baptism into death is the real baptism for the Church, as it was the real baptism for our Lord; water baptism is only the symbol, or picture of it to us, as it was to him.’
Q. ‘What is heart belief?’
‘For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.’ (Romans 10:10)
‘HEART CONFIDENCE ESSENTIAL
The expression of the text, “We who have believed,” implies that the belief has reached the heart, and will thus affect our course in life. And the second part of the statement, “do enter into rest,” implies that the rest is gradually coming to him because he has believed. He has first believed; and the fulness of rest is a condition to be attained gradually as his faith grows stronger, and as he learns to appreciate more fully what he has accepted.
‘”With the heart man believeth,” and not merely with the head. It is not a mere intellectual belief. When we accept the Gospel as a fact, and enter fully into it, we begin at once to have a measure of this rest; and as we learn by our experiences how true the Lord is to all His promises to us, the rest becomes more deep and abiding. The belief was at first a full belief in the Message of God; but as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of God, the more firm and established does our faith become, and our rest is proportionate.’—R5433: page 105
‘We exercise faith in the heart before we make an outward profession—before we confess the Lord with our mouth. And we have no right to confess Him with our mouth until we have believed “unto righteousness”; for “with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Romans 10:10.) So we have the declaration of the Lord that He will not consider that we have a proper faith or hope unless we confess it. He has declared that if we refuse or fail to confess Him before men, He will account us unworthy to be confessed before the Father and the holy angels. There is, then, no salvation without a confession of the Lord; the two are inseparable.’—R5497: page 211
Beyond that I suggest you do your own research as I’m not in the game of reading other peoples hearts, thoughts and intentions, questioning the vows that some make (denying the validity of such and such a vow). Where I see someone publicly express a love for God and Jesus Christ (perhaps by means of water baptism), I take that at face value. I would not cast aspersions at such a one (particularly where the life of the individual reflects the declaration with the lips and the outward public symbolism).
Where one who has walked for a time in the Way (with what light/knowledge/understanding they had) and that individual starts to go wayward, I would not then begin to say that the vow that individual made was invalid—effectively invalidating their vow, and thereby excusing their wayward conduct (as if it doesn’t matter to God). Instead, I’d try to encourage such a wayward one back onto the right track—reminding them of the vows they had taken, and the possible consequences they face for breaking that vow.
Q. ‘What is entailed in the contractual commitment of baptism?’
A. To which baptism are you referring – the water symbol or something else?
Again, I perceive you are trying to conflate two issues – those justified by faith, and those who are consecrated unto death. It is clearly the case, as I’ve previously stated, that currently the ‘Key of knowledge’ regarding certain issues has been ‘taken away’ from Jehovah’s Witnesses (being misled into understanding that certain things do not apply to them).
My point has been, and continues to be, we do not have the right to tell others that a sacred vow they have made before God is invalid and that it has not been accepted by God (thereby excusing some who are ransom deniers, etc., potentially placing their eternal future at risk).
We cannot read the thoughts and intentions of the heart, and do not know what was in the heart when such and such a person made their vow to God before many witnesses. Therefore, rather than seek to excuse such an individual, the better course would be to encourage such a one to KEEP THEIR VOW — to go further.
To be sure, many of these are actually ‘friends’ of God, not ‘SONS’ of God due to certain reasons – I’m not disputing that fact. However, it’s crystal clear to me that certain ‘Bible Students’ only speak of JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES in this manner, and there’s a certain spirit behind it—and it’s not a Christian spirit, either.
If you and others wish to pursue the course whereby as ‘Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ you want to inform them that they were never recognised by God as, at the very least, His ‘friends’, and that they can cease to believe in Christ Jesus, become enemies of Christ, deny the ransom and that they will face no consequences for doing this, be my guest.
‘A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.’ (Matthew 12:35-37)
Frank Shallieu’s New Testament Studies [Matthew 12:36], i part:
‘The present age is the “day of judgment” for the Church…
“Idle” means careless, and “careless” is a good rendering, for it embraces more categories. Jesus was referring to the overall effect of our character and ministry, for none of us can control our every single word. The accumulation of “idle” words produces a habit, and a habit that is encouraged eventually produces a destiny. Some kind of account will be given for idle words.’
A question for you. Is it necessary to undergo a BAPTISM of *any kind* to be admitted into the COURT CONDITION (justification through faith) — if so, what is that baptism? If not, how does one become JUSTIFIED (and recognised as being in a justified condition?
Thank you for your consideration. I ask you to forgive any words or expressions I have said thus far that may, on the face of it, seem overly harsh or even offensive.
Dear Peter K.,
I neglected to answer the following:
Q. ‘What if a congregation attender is caught up in the emotional experience of worship, singing, friendship, recognition, flattery, feels peer pressure and/or wants group acceptance? Will God contractually accept this baptism if He knows that the “consecration” or “dedication” is not real and will not be sustained over time and that the baptized member will later go back into the world?’
A. I can’t begin to answer all the possible hypothetical scenarios you may pose. I’m not God – how would I know? I’ve already stated that there are many ‘tares’ who are baptised by means of a ‘water’ baptism. This is beyond question. Some will fall away and go back into the world (having never been recognised by God in any way whatsoever).
However, I will remind you (again) that it is certain ‘Bible Students’ who go around making a point that Jehovah’s Witnesses, in particular, who are baptised to an Organisation (or to the Governing Body – whatever) — the implication being that none of these are consecrated children of God, and many of the are not even in a justified condition (through faith in Christ).
You said as much yourself:
‘(Peter K. (admin) March 3, 2023 at 6:53 pm · Reply)
My feeling is that many Ex-JWs who become atheists never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ, but rather they were baptized into the organization.’
Let me ask, do you even believe that those in religious denominations can become spirit-begotten?
Also, will God hold individuals accountable for the amount of light/knowledge they have received (accepting Christ as saviour, public confessions of faith and a water baptism, etc., and turn back to become an opposer, antichrist, etc. – or is all that irrelevant and will go unpunished)?
As it is, I can’t know or prove that such and such an individual is or isn’t ‘consecrated’ or ‘justified’ and, thereby, recognised by God as such. There are wolves in sheep’s covering, false brethren and so on and so forth to contend with. So, I, for one, am not going to go around saying that such and such never had a valid contract with God – how would I know for certain (again, I know there is a large field of tares)?
The best I can do is encourage individuals who appear to have taken certain steps in the way of righteousness, and start to slide back, is to encourage them to get back on track and move forward (reminding such that they made certain commitments to God, and did so publicly).
I would never say to such an individual ‘don’t worry, God never accepted your vow anyway so continue in sin – despite the fact you know it’s wrong – continue to deny Chris and his ransom, despite the fact you once exercised faith in Jesus and the ransom – you’ll be alright, in the Kingdom you can pull your socks up then.’
Again, I don’t have time to respond now. I am on my way to work in the next few minutes. I did say before I would give any JW brother or sister I meet the benefit of the doubt. Any JW who loves Jesus and Jehovah, recognizing the authority of the Bible, I think would certainly be in the Court condition.
Dear Peter K.,
Thank you for your further reply.
Please do not feel you need to reply further. Personally, I’m not interested in getting bogged down in some long-winded debate on the technicalities of what baptism is and isn’t valid (as well as consecration).
I commented to make some specific point, and I believe I have adequately done that. Those points being:
1. Jehovah God will hold each person responsible (consecrated or not) for the amount of light/knowledge/truth they have, and how they use or abuse it.
2. Second Death is possible for the ‘un-consecrated’ in this Age.
3. We cannot read the hearts and minds of those professing a faith in God and Jesus Christ.
4. We cannot say whether God has or has not ‘justified’ a certain individual or not.
5. We cannot say with certainty whether or not God has or has not accepted someone’s vow.
6. We cannot say with certainty who is or is not truly consecrated.
7. Those in Babylon (including Jehovah’s Witnesses) can be in a justified state.
8. Those in Babylon (including Jehovah’s Witnesses) can be spirit-begotten.
9. ‘Bible Students’, particularly former Jehovah’s Witnesses now associated with the Movement, are responsible for spreading this **ABSOLUTE NONSENSE** that a Jehovah’s Witness is baptised to an Organisation (Jehovah’s Witnesses are singled out as a ‘special’ target in this regard — no other denomination is treated in such a manner by ‘Bible Students’).
10. The questions asked or spoken at Baptism by the one administering the baptism are *irrelevant** — what matter is what’s in the mind and heart of the individual.
11. Re-Baptism may or may not be necessary — it’s up to the individual to decide if the symbol has been done (when baptised with whatever group or denomination – ‘Bible Student’ or not).
I think those are the key points I wanted to make.
__________________________________________________
I’m pleased, Peter, that you will give an Jehovah’s Witness you meet the benefit of the doubt — I’ll be sure to do the me for any ‘Bible Students’ I meet, too.
Any ‘Bible Student’ who loves Jesus and Jehovah, recognising the authority of the Bible (over and above the writings of any man), I think would also certainly be in the Court condition (at the very least). However, I’m not going to make that a hard and fast rule to judge those I meet, as, again, I can’t read their minds or hearts.
All the best.
Hi Steven – Thanks for so clearly summarizing your thoughts.
You said, “I’m not interested in getting bogged down in some long-winded debate on the technicalities of what baptism is and isn’t valid (as well as consecration).”
I will respect that and leave the discussion as is unless you have some specific question or point you want me to respond to.
This website is here for brothers and sisters like you to have an opportunity to freely discuss scripture back and forth with me and others. It is okay to show some passion because we should really care deeply about being true to the word of God. You have been reasonable and a gentleman. You are always welcome to comment here.
God bless you brother.
Dear Brother Peter K.,
Thank you very much for your reply, and your kindly word – much appreciated. Thanks too for taking the time to respond to various questions – despite your busy schedule.
I may well take up your invitation to comment again in the future.
May the Lord bless your consecrated walk, and the efforts you are making (and any others with you) to reach sincere ones, who truly love God and his dear Son, to walk in the Way more perfectly.
‘And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.’ (Acts 18:24-26)
Thanks. I enjoy disucussing the Biblical issues and questions.
Hi Steven – I won’t have time today to respond. In my last post, I did NOT disagree with your baptism example (Acts 8:26-40 – Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch) However, I felt that looking at one example did not give a complete enough picture, so I asked several questions with related scriptures to broaden our consideration of the topic.
Dear Peter K.,
I’m sorry to bombard you comments board. However, I felt I should respond further to your comments about Judas Iscariot, as, upon re-examination of your comment (Peter K. (admin) March 4, 2023 at 4:54 am · Reply) I realised that you were actually trying to claim that Judas may not have gone into second death. You state:
‘Regarding Second Death, I think the only example one can present of someone going into this eternal destruction (pre-earthly kingdom) who is not Anointed with the holy spirit (spirit begotten) would be Judas Iscariot where we are told in Matt 26:24 (NASV) “It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” However, I believe in essence this verse is saying it would have been better had he been Stillborn (and later resurrection on Paradise Earth, rather than to come back to shame – Daniel 12:2). Compare these other verses.
Job 3:11 (HCSB, AM) “Why was I not stillborn; why didn’t I die as I came from the womb?”
Eccles 6:3 (HCSB, ISV, NET, LEB, WEB) “A man may father a hundred children and live many years. No matter how long he lives, if he is not satisfied by good things and does not even have a proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.”’
In a previous comment (Steven A (Christian) March 4, 2023 at 1:02 pm) I made the point that actually *Adam* is an example of someone (not spirit begotten) who was in a second death state (until rescued by means of the ransom provision). So, in actuality, Judas is *not* the only example that can be provided.
As for this idea of Jesus Christ meaning it would be better for Judas to have been stillborn, this doesn’t seem plausible. The other scriptures you quoted appear to me to have no bearing on the verse(s) (Matthew 26:24) related to Judas.
Of interest is a comment by Bro. Frank Shallieu (Matt. 26:24), his New Testament Studies states, in part:
‘When we see how strongly and repeatedly Judas was warned and given opportunity, we have no right to defend him. The Pastor wrote some pretty scathing articles on those who are sympathetic to Judas. Some articles are fairly moderate, but others declare sympathy for Judas to be despicable. To defend Judas is to be more loving than God.
Reprint R2130: 102, (IS THERE NO HOPE FOR POOR JUDAS?) reads, in part:
‘Your question indicates that however much you have submitted your judgment to God’s will on some questions, you have not submitted on this point. The reason seems to be that you are deceiving yourself into thinking that your sympathy with Judas is the true love which the Scriptures everywhere enjoin as the essence of Christian character. But you are deceiving yourself. To love an evil thing is on a par with hating a good thing. Both are wrong; both are sinful; both are evidences that the depraved mind is not renewed, remodeled, transformed into the mind of Christ. As well might the drunkard or the libertine claim that his love of evil things indicates more true love. ….
Cease to pride yourself upon your love for one of the most detestable characters known to the pages of history, of whom our Lord who so loved (sympathized with) the world that he laid down his life for it (—and greater love hath no man than this) said, “It had been better for that man if he had never been born.” Adopt God’s standpoint, as the Apostle says, “Be not deceived, God is not mocked, he that doeth righteousness is righteous [and approved of God], but he that practices sin [knowingly, willfully] is of the devil.”
For our part we have no thought of ever becoming more loving than the Lord: we accept his definitions, and seek to be conformed mentally thereto—the image of God’s Son. We want to love just as he loves and just what he loves, and we want to hate what he hates. Of him it is written, “Because thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore the Lord, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” (Heb. 1:9.) “Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee?…I hate them with a perfect hatred.”—Psa. 139:21,22.’
The Lord Jesus stated:
‘While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.’ (John 17:12)
Here we see the word ‘perdition’ used.
‘perdition: Implying that Judas had enjoyed a sufficiency of light and knowledge of righteousness to constitute a trial, and that his deliberate sin against such light and knowledge meant the second death. R4907:3’
‘But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.’ (Hebrews 10:39)
‘Unto perdition — Second death–destruction. T68; R5371:2, 5102:3, 4536:4, 4321:5, 2941:3, 2161:3, 2081:4*, 2073:4*, 1799:1, 431:2*’
In another Reprint (responding to a question from a consecrated individual running for the high calling), the following part quote is interesting:
‘…the Lord and the apostles always present the matter as a race for life, and declare that the gospel is to us, either “a savor of life unto life, or of death unto death;” and speak of those who draw back, not as drawing back to an earthly hope of restitution, but as drawing back unto perdition—destruction.’—R1789: page 75 (ENCOURAGING WORDS FROM FAITHFUL WORKERS.)
Thus, Judas Iscariot, the Son of Perdition [DESTRUCTION] went into Second Death—from which there is no hope for his recovery.
Finally, a further word of clarification regarding your statement:
‘Luke quotes from Joel in Acts 2:17, In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even in this case, free will would allow one to resist the influence of the holy spirit.’
To be clear, I do not deny that there will be a general pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all mankind during the Millennial Age (Joel 2:28, 29). However, there is (or will be) a major difference in the operation of the Spirit at that time, which I crudely attempted to convey in one of my comments (Steven A (Christian) March 4, 2023 at 1:02 pm) below – which stated, in part:
‘Spirit begettal today is purely for the purpose of allowing some to become new spiritual creatures.’
Volume 5, STUDY IX,THE BAPTISM, WITNESS AND SEAL OF THE SPIRIT OF AT-ONE-MENT, pp. 220-221 (part):
‘The possession of the holy Spirit, during the Millennial age, will not as during this age signify a begetting of the Spirit to a spirit-nature, nor will it signify an acceptance to joint-heirship with Christ in the Kingdom. That promise belongs only to this Gospel age.’
Thus, those upon whom the Holy Spirit is poured out in the Millennial Kingdom will *not* be spirit begotten in the same sense as one is considered spirit begotten currently (i.e., to a spirit nature – which begetting you appear to claim is necessary for an individual to have undergone before such an individual – who falls away into unfaithfulness – is eligible for Second Death in this Age).
The operation of the Spirit in the Millennial Age is probably going to be comparable to its operation upon various faithful ones of old, as recorded in the Old Testament.
Now, it’s not really my affair, and the administrators of this site can do as they please… However, personally, I don’t believe that having links to apostates (individuals who have openly come out as being atheists – denying Jesus Christ – despite once confessing to be a disciple of Christ) is a positive things for Jehovah’s Witnesses or Bible Students.
Certainly John Cedars, or Lloyd Evans, is an antichrist (a denier of the ransom he once confessed to believe in — I’m not interested in any claims that he perhaps wasn’t ‘consecrated’ or ‘spirit-begotten’. He has/had greater light than many on this subject and will be held accountable to the appropriate degree (remember Judas Iscariot). At any rate, I’m shocked that any Christian would refer a fellow Christian (consecrated or not) to such an individual.
Furthermore, many of these ex-JW individuals are very anti-Watchtower Society to the point of being obsessed. Also, many have been **rightly** disfellowshipped for acts of immorality (adultery, fornication, etc.), for which they are unrepentant, yet they feel aggrieved and wronged because they were expelled for their own filthy conduct (usually unrepented of)!
From the couple of links in comments above, I’d certainly include ‘Kevin McFree’ in the category of being obsessed (I know nothing of the moral character of this individual). Why would a supposed ‘Bible Student’ (is ‘Bible Student’ against one’s name use in a denominational or non-denominational sense…?) encourage Jehovah’s Witnesses to watch such people – (mockers and ridiculers)? Rather, why not stick to using the inspired Word of God to try and persuade such ones (JW’s) to change their course, as this is the thing that ‘pulls down strongholds’— overturns (strongly entrenched things)?—2 Cor. 10:4
Thanks Steven – You make some good points. I agree with your statement that “many of these ex-JW individuals are very anti-Watchtower Society to the point of being obsessed.” I noticed that a lot of Ex-JWs get together with each other as a sort of support group to perpetually voice their grievances against the JW Organization. I can understand that some who being marked as apostate and shunned and separated unwillingly from family would have deep emotional scars. However in many cases this emotional suffering follows them for years with no end in sight.
Guided by the Holy Spirit and scripture, a real relationship with Jesus Christ and the Heavenly Father should help a suffering Christian to overcome the pain, angers, resentment, etc. to move on over time to spiritual recovery and spiritual high ground.
Romans 5:3-5 We also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
1 Cor 10:13 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Isa 40:31 but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
We have a policy on this website to allow people to freely express themselves without censorship except when it is evident that they are not willing to have an honest back and forth dialogue but only want to promote their agenda unhindered. If we were to block links provided, even to atheists, that would be censorship. The solution I believe is for good Christians like yourself to present scripture, logic, reason and honesty to kindly refute the error as you see it. That is what we want here, a forum for open and honest discussion. Few people have the interest, patience and love for scripture to pursue this method. You are welcome to voice your concerns and continue the discussion here if you are interested in doing so. Thanks again for your contributions.
Dear Peter K.
Thanks for your reply.
I respect your policy and, as I mentioned, you are free to pursue whatever policy you want—it will be for the Lord to judge, in the end, whether or not such a policy is (was) a wise one.
At any rate, I am reminded of something I read in R312 — ZWT, January & February, 1882 (Truth Sifting in The Tower), it reads, in part:
‘The course we pursue relative to the dissemination of truth—use your time, your means, your influence for truth, not error. Teach nothing, lend nothing, give nothing—neither book, paper nor tract, by whomsoever published, which you have not carefully examined and feel sure would glorify God.’
John Cedars, aka Loyd Evans, (a link that is recommended below) also has a couple of videos that discuss the ‘Bible Students’- comparing them to Jehovah’s Witnesses (and saying nothing positive – basically viewing the Bible Student movement as being cultish). I’m surprised that a ‘Bible Student’ (those posting the links) would actually recommend such a channel (that of and individual who has recently – in the last year or two – admitted to his followers that he is an adulterer who frequented prostitutes).
At any rate, I suppose, unless you personally know the individuals posting comments on your website, you cannot be sure people are what, or who, they claim to be.
‘Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.’ (Matthew 10:16)
And again:
‘And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.’ (Matthew 18:5-6)
Finally:
‘The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.'(2 Peter 2:9-22)
Well, I’ll leave it at that. Thank you.
Thank you.
The friends below recommending John Cedars are Ex-JWs associated themselves with Bible Students for a while, but no longer. Thanks for enlightening readers with background information on John Cedars which many may not have known. Your quote from the Tower provides excellent counsel.
My opinion is that the passage you referred to in 2 Peter 2, like the book of Jude, is describing the “Second Death” class. Personally I would not apply that to brothers and sisters using poor judgement. The concept of the “door shut” to the foolish virgins in Matt 25 for example is not “second death,” but rather rejection to be of the heavenly bride and I would prefer to hope for the best others.
1 Tim 2:4 “God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
I believe that God designed a plan, with the permission of evil, that in the end would allow the maximum number of people to be saved, considering that he had to give them free will or else he would have a creation of obedient robots. In this view of things, I believe most of the people who have ever lived, including the wicked, will be resurrected to an earthly kingdom and judgment period in which their experience with evil will aid them in making a free will choice for righteousness and obedience. There are many scriptures to discuss in this area.
Thanks again and feel free to continue the discussion if you have more to say. I am okay with comments whether or not people agree with me. I think it is good to discuss things out and consider scriptural evidence to test our conclusions (1 John 4:1).
Hello,
Thanks for the further reply.
Actually, the Scripture reference of 2 Peter 2 was not necessarily directed at those in the comments section making ‘poor judgment’ as respects referring fellow Christians to certain pernicious individuals (their respective YouTube channels)—although, depending on the effect such a visit has on one thus referred, the referrer may well bear some guilt— but more concerning those individuals that have outwardly and wilfully rejected the Christ after professing once to have been a follower of Jesus Christ, but now outwardly and openly denying the ransom.
I do understand that many ‘Bible Students’ in general seek to excuse all who are not ‘consecrated’ or ‘spirit begotten’ (according to the ‘Bible Student’ understanding of such matters), as though somehow they (the individual who has confessed faith in Christ and the ransom, but later reject it and become opposed) are somehow *not* responsible for rejecting the light they have received regarding the ransom, and this means that somehow they are not in danger of second death.
To put it bluntly, individuals like Mr Cedars (now an atheist, who now denies the ransom), I believe, are in great danger of second death, despite the fact some would suggest that he, as an individual, was never ‘consecrated’ or ‘spirit begotten’, as though this somehow invalidates his vow (dedication – symbolised by water baptism) he willingly made before Jehovah God. However, as *some* ‘Bible Students’ appear to believe that only their own method of water baptism is valid (much like the attitude of many in other denomination), perhaps even believing that those in Babylon cannot be Spirit begotten, I can appreciate why some would find this hard to swallow.
Ultimately, it will be for God and Christ to judge; but I’m not going to pretend that those who have received a certain amount of knowledge (truth), and have made certain commitments to God, can be excused simply because they weren’t ‘consecrated’, baptised, etc., as per ‘Bible Student’ understanding. That such individuals, who never were ‘Bible Students’, or ‘spirit begotten’, are free to deny Christ (despite their former vow to God in whatever way), deny the ransom, and try to turn others away from Christ – and that without any consequence or risk to themselves. Those people are playing with fire. They are endangering themselves and endangering others who listen to them.
It’s also risky, I think, to suggest to such and such a person that he/she is not in danger of punishment or second death for taking such a course (denial of Christ and the ransom) simply because they were not (in the eyes of some – meaning certain ‘Bible Students’) ever ‘truly’ consecrated or spirit begotten, and so, whatever they say or do is will never reach the point where that individual is worthy of second death (until the Kingdom Age).
For my part, if and when encountering such individuals, will warn such that they are in grave danger if they continue on their current course (due to the knowledge/light they have obtained and the vows they have made – and may be now breaking). I certainly wouldn’t say:
‘Oh well, you weren’t really ‘consecrated’ or spirit-begotten, and your baptism wasn’t valid, so don’t worry, continue doing what you’re doing (denying Christ, ransom, etc.) – you’ll be alright, no danger of second death. In the Kingdom Age you can change your mind again then’.
At any rate, thanks again responding. I’ll leave it at that.
Thanks again Steven. I appreciate how you found “more concerning those individuals that have outwardly and willfully rejected the Christ after professing once to have been a follower of Jesus Christ, but now outwardly and openly denying the ransom.” My feeling is that many Ex-JWs who become atheists never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ, but rather they were baptized into the organization. This may also be why there are a number of people who switch from Catholic to JW and visa versa, from one organization to another. However, I do not have statistics on this.
I agree with you that people will be held accountable for their actions now when they are raised from the dead to the earthly kingdom. However, “Second Death” or eternal destruction I believe is more of a last resort since God really does “desire all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4). 2 Peter 3:9 – “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV
Let me share some scriptures that I think are in support of your concerns.
1 Timothy 5:24 (NKJV) “Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.”
Romans 2:5-10 (NASV) “5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of god, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (NASV) “6 for after all it is only just for god to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know god and to those who do not obey the gospel of our lord Jesus.”
So I do believe people are accountable for their behavior and if they are not disciplined for their wickedness in this life, they will receive the appropriate discipline in the kingdom, so that they might then repent.
Matt 11:20-24 – it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you…
Ezek 16:55, 61,62 – Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state NKJV
Isa 60:14 –all those who despised you will bow themselves at the souls of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD. The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – NASV
Rev 3:9 – I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan…to come and bow down at your feet”
The purpose of Jehovah’s disciplines are to bring people to repentance and everlasting life.
Regarding second death prior to the earthly kingdom, I believe the scriptures indicate that only the anointed ones (holy spirit begotten) are on trial for life now.
2 Peter 2:1 “denying the Lord who bought them”
Hebrews 6:4, 6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit…6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance”
Hebrews 10:29 “Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”
The ones sanctified, bought with the blood of the ransom, partakers of the holy spirt are in covenant relationship with Jehovah and on trial for life. Other sinners and wicked will only be subject to the second death if they do not repent during the time of the earthly kingdom.
Rev 22:14 – Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are immoral, murderers, idolaters and liers.
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
Dear Peter K.,
Thanks for your response.
A critical problem with your response, in my opinion, is the following statement:
‘My feeling is that many Ex-JWs who become atheists never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ, but rather they were baptized into the organization.’
Here, you are deciding that the vow that an individual has taken before God, with a great deal of knowledge (far more than that of a Roman Catholic – being given a clear understanding of Christ as saviour, and faith in the ransom, etc.) is not valid and that the individual ‘never had really had a relationship with Jesus Christ’. What gives you the right to make such a sweeping determination? What grants you the right to say that the dedication an individual Witness has made to Jehovah God is invalid, that God has not recognised it, and will not hold the individual responsible for that vow? Who made you the judge of that? If you’re wrong, and have been going around telling individuals that God hasn’t recognised their vow, when, in fact, He has held them responsible for the intelligent vow they made in accordance with the knowledge (light) they possessed, you are putting yourself in a serious situation before God. Should you not rather be encouraging individuals to uphold the vow they made to God, instead of seeking to excuse them from it?
You refer to Hebrews 6:4, 6 and also Hebrews 10:29 in a manner as to suggest that only one who is, or has been, spirit-begotten can go into second death in this Age. Clearly these verses were written to the consecrated class. However, Pastor Russell states, in Reprint 5684, the following:
‘Hebrews 6:4-8 does indeed refer to the church, but it does not enumerate the only conditions of which any will die the second death…. This Scripture does not say there are no other conditions on which second death will be inflicted.’
It’s obvious that in the Kingdom Age there will be many who are not spirit begotten who will go into second death. However, it is also possible for those who are *not* consecrated, and are *not* spirit begotten to go into second death in *this Age*. This should be clear from the example of Judas Iscariot. It should also be clear from some of the things Jesus stated to the Pharisees. (Matthew 23:33)
The parable of the Wedding of the King’s Son is also pertinent (Matthew 22:2-14). In this parable there is an individual referred to as ‘friend’ (interestingly, Jehovah’s Witnesses – those who are considered as being ‘the other sheep’ with an earthly hope – are frequently reminded that they are ‘friends’ of God). This ‘friend’ is found to be without a wedding garment. The parable does *not* say the ‘friend’ had a wedding garment on and then took it off. Thus, the ‘friend’ can represent an individual who isn’t spirit begotten, and perhaps didn’t make a sincere consecration. But it can also include individuals who took off the garment. At any rate, the individual is cast into outer darkness – second death.
At any rate, can you tell me what further, greater, clearer knowledge of the truth does one need than to understand that Jesus is the Christ (he tasted death for every man) and that to obtain life one must exercise faith in him (as the saviour) and the ransom? Your claim seems to be that such individuals who have a clear and intelligent grasp of these facts are excused by the fact that, according to you, they can’t sin against the Holy Spirit because their vow to God is invalid because you’re of the opinion they (Jehovah’s Witnesses in this instance) were baptised into an organisation. This is very dangerous reasoning.
Basically you are saying, as I pointed out in my previous comment, that an individual (a non-Bible Student) who made a vow to God, recognised Christ as his saviour, confessing publicly this faith and belief in the ransom, but who turns away and becomes atheist – antichrist – and actually an enemy of Christ, cannot be liable to Gehenna. In my opinion, such reasoning is faulty.
The fact is, it is entirely possible for a non-spirit begotten, unconsecrated individual to go into second death – in this Age. The Scriptures bear out this fact.
Dear Peter K.,
Further to my last comments, I want to ask you a couple more questions that you can perhaps answer (if you choose to respond further).
At what point does an individual move from the camp condition into the Court condition, and what is required to move into this condition?
In relation to Jehovah’s Witnesses, when baptised, what condition do you believe a Jehovah’s Witnesses is in – Camp, Court or something else? Why?
Thanks.
Steven,
My understanding is that the CAMP represents the world of mankind in sin.
The COURT represents a condition where someone is very interested in the Lord, but has not made the commitment of full sacrifice, nor have they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In the COURT, any one who would approach the HOLY compartment must first pass the Brazen Alter; they must first appreciate the Ransom Sacrifice.
Before the Priest could enter the HOLY, he had to wash at the LAVER. Made of highly polished copper (Ex 38:8), the Priest saw his reflection in the LAVER. By looking into God’s Word, we see the sin that needs to be washed away, and we clean up our act just prior to the decision of consecration, going under the veil into the Holy.
You asked, “In relation to Jehovah’s Witnesses, when baptized, what condition do you believe a Jehovah’s Witnesses is in Camp, Court or something else? Why?”
It is not my place to make that judgement on any individual. However, speaking in general terms I would view JWs as in the court condition. The door to the Holy is consecration to the heavenly call as I see it.
Much more detail, but I am keeping it simple. Feel free to share your thoughts.
Steven – You make well reasoned comments and I am glad you are sharing your thoughts on our website. Per the scriptures I referenced, I do feel an individual making a vow to the Lord and turning back on it is subject to discipline/punishment in this life and/or in the kingdom, until repentance and righteousness are obtained. Some of these may go into Second Death as you have stated. I prefer to have mercy and hope of future repentance for them, but that is in Jehovah’s hands and I would not want to argue with what God and Jesus decide if it be the worst outcome in some cases.
In 1985 the baptism questions changed, with the candidate having to announce their desire to become associated with an Organization.
“At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example.
The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.” Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30
I am not sure how the current baptism questions are worded, however part of this 1985 question seems to me to indicate baptism to an organization. Perhaps you see it differently?
Please help me to understand what difference you see between a regular baptized JW and an Anointed JW regarding the Holy Spirit. I once had a JW couple in my home discussing scriptures for hours and raised the question of whether they believed as baptized JWs that they had the holy spirit indwelling. The husband answered “yes,” and the wife corrected him with a “no.” If a regular baptized JW has the holy spirit indwelling (spirit begettal), how are they any different from the anointed? Do you think the three scriptures below apply to baptized JWs who are not anointed?
Hebrews 3:1 (NWT) “Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess-Jesus.”
2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NWT) “1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,”
Hebrews 6:19-20 (NASV) “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
Regarding Second Death, I think the only example one can present of someone going into this eternal destruction (pre-earthly kingdom) who is not Anointed with the holy spirit (spirit begotten) would be Judas Iscariot where we are told in Matt 26:24 (NASV) “It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” However, I believe in essence this verse is saying it would have been better had he been Stillborn (and later resurrection on Paradise Earth, rather than to come back to shame – Daniel 12:2). Compare these other verses.
Job 3:11 (HCSB, AM) “Why was I not stillborn; why didn’t I die as I came from the womb?”
Eccles 6:3 (HCSB, ISV, NET, LEB, WEB) “A man may father a hundred children and live many years. No matter how long he lives, if he is not satisfied by good things and does not even have a proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.”
Carefully reading these verses in context (2 Peter 2:1; Hebrews 6:4, 6; Hebrews 10:29) I don’t see how it can be argued these were not previously anointed, baptized, sanctified, spirit begotten Christians. However, we will just have to disagree on this. Your view point is welcome and each student of scriptures reading our comments can prayerfully decide for themselves. I don’t claim to always be right. I am doing the best I can to understand scriptures as I think you are too.
You said, “It’s obvious that in the Kingdom Age there will be many who are not spirit begotten who will go into second death.” Luke quotes from Joel in Acts 2:17, In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even in this case, free will would allow one to resist the influence of the holy spirit. Matt 12:32 says that whoever speaks against Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come.
In any case, it is about the application of the Ransom. Jesus died “once for ALL” (Romans 6:10), not twice. Once the Ransom is applied and we are “Justified by his blood” (Romans 5:9) and subject to eternal judgement. Same for mankind when resurrected in the earthly kingdom. We are protected from immediate judgement by Jesus our Advocate (1 John 2:1) giving us time to grow (Rom 12:2). The world will be protected from immediate judgement by the Mediator (Jesus and his body members) during the 1,000 years after being resurrected giving them time to repent and accept the righteous kingdom arrangements.
Dear Peter K.,
Thanks for your detailed reply.
Thanks, in particular for the explanation regarding the condition of individuals in the Camp condition and in the Court condition.
I’m also please that you have recognised that, generally speaking, Jehovah’s Witnesses (and likely many in other denominations) are in the Court condition.
As per Tabernacle Shadows, pp. 18-19, the Camp represents the ‘condition of the world of mankind in sin, needing atonement and desiring blessings…’.
The Court represents the condition of Justification, entered through faith in Christ, the “gate”‘.
In a previous comment you stated:
‘My feeling is that many Ex-JWs who become atheists never really had a relationship with Jesus Christ, but rather they were baptized into the organization.’
However, the very fact that a Jehovah’s Witness can be in the Court condition informs us that, actually, they are in a relationship with God to a certain extent – through their faith in Christ Jesus (perhaps being ‘tentatively’ justified at this point – see Author’s 1916 Foreword, of Vol VI). The point is made in the Foreword that it’s fortunate many are not fully recognised by the Father at this point, otherwise their condition would be much worse for misusing their justification ‘which can only come to each individual once).
Nevertheless, the point stands that through faith, generally speaking, a Jehovah’s Witness has entered into the Court condition and is in the way of justification through faith.
Now, regarding the matter of baptism and the words spoken. You claim that the words were changed and that (the implication being) this somehow has some relevance.
Let’s look at F455 (STUDY X, THE BAPTISM OF THE NEW CREATION, The Form of Words):
‘No particular form of words for this service is set before us in the Scriptures, and all can readily see that the words are of secondary importance—that the baptism might be equally valid if no words at all were used; because, as previously stated, the real contract is between the baptized one and the Lord, and the act of water baptism is the open confession of it. It is not, therefore, a question of what the administrator may believe or disbelieve, say or omit to say, but of what is the thought and intention of the heart of the one thus symbolically baptized. Nevertheless, basing our judgment upon the words of the Lord, in Matt. 28:19, and the words of the Apostle in Rom. 6:3, we recommend as a simple form of sound words for the occasion these:
“Brother John [or other Christian name], in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, by this authority, I baptize thee into Christ.”‘
It can be clearly seen that the words spoken are irrelevant for this symbol—yes, water baptism is symbol and is *not* the real baptism. A great mistake many ‘Bible Students’ make, I believe, is to associate this symbol and the words spoken as the real baptism – to the extend they almost oblige new associates into their company to be rebaptised as a ‘Bible Student’ (because they do not recognise the water baptism, and spoken words of a Jehovah’s Witness – which is all just a symbol as being valid).
I also suspect it’s because an average Jehovah’s Witness is baptised with the understanding of an ‘earthly’ hope; but a Christian isn’t baptised for a specific ‘hope’ (needing to be rebaptised for a heavenly hope). What matters, as stated in the quote above is ‘the thought and intention of the heart of the one thus symbolically baptized’. Therefore, for some to go about claiming that the baptism of such and such an individual is invalid due to the words spoken is clearly completely unacceptable. Who gave such ones the ability to read the motives, heart and mind, of the individual undergoing this symbol when dedicating their lives to Jehovah God – claiming the dedicated themselves to an organisation? This, to me, is outrageous and completely unacceptable!
This attitude of baptism is similar to that found in other denominations (they each believe only theirs is the true and valid form of baptism). And I do understand that ‘Bible Students’ deny being a denomination/organisation.
As for the Second Death, it appears we do share a similar opinion as you agreed that Judas is one example of a non-spirit begotten individual who has gone in to second death. And you also stated:
‘I do feel an individual making a vow to the Lord and turning back on it is subject to discipline/punishment in this life and/or in the kingdom, until repentance and righteousness are obtained. Some of these may go into Second Death as you have stated.’
Thus, in the case of a former Jehovah’s Witness; as we were not privy to the thoughts and intentions of the heart of the individual when they underwent a symbol of baptism, it is not for us to question the legitimacy of their vow before God. We should take the word of the individual, if and when such state they dedicated themselves to God and that it was contracted forever. Instead of trying to make excuses for the Jehovah’s Witness (or any other), by claiming their baptism wasn’t valid, or whatever, it would be better to encourage such an individual to *keep* their sacred vow they made.
‘When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.’ (Deuteronomy 23:21)
‘When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.’ Ecclesiastes 5:4)
Furthermore, instead of relying on interpretations of ‘justification’, tentative or otherwise, it would also be wise (I think) to warn individuals of the potential dangers they face for failure to keep their vow. If such a one claims to have made a dedication (basically consecration) to God, then we who continue to walk in the Way (remembering that we are discussing some of those who have abandoned the Way, choosing to become opposers, atheists, antichrist) should warn such individuals that their erroneous course, in light of the sacred vow they confess to have taken, may lead them into second death. The fact is, if the course is not reversed now, it will be hard to reverse in the Kingdom (if such do make it that far). And to reform their character at that later date, despite the amount of knowledge and light received in this present time , would likely be extremely difficult – if not impossible.
I’ll leave it at that, and wait to see if you have a further reply. Thanks.
Hi Steven,
In the case of being re-baptized, some Bible Students may feel that is best, but my experience is that most leave that up to the new member. If a new member believes they understood consecration when they were baptized and don’t feel it necessary to do so again, then they are not asked to do so.
You said, “It can be clearly seen that the words spoken are irrelevant for this symbol…”
I disagree with “irrelevant.” To your quote from F455 STUDY X, I add the following:
R5245 : page 158: “BROAD UNSECTARIAN QUESTIONS. The following are the questions usually put by Brother Russell when receiving candidates for Water Immersion. It will be noticed that they are on broad lines—questions which any Christian, whatever his confession, should be able to answer in the affirmative without hesitation if he is suitable to be acknowledged as a member of the Church of Christ:
(1) Have you repented of sin with such restitution as you are able, and are you trusting in the merit of Christ’s sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins and the basis of your justification?
(2) Have you made a full consecration of yourself with all the powers that you possess—talent, money, time, influence—all to the Lord, to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death?
(3) On the basis of these confessions, we acknowledge you as a member of the Household of Faith, and give to you as such the right hand of fellowship, not in the name of any sect or party or creed, but in the name of the Redeemer, our glorified Lord, and His faithful followers.”
Words of confession at a baptism are supposed to be reflective of the heart transformation and the covenant being made with Jehovah. Yes, what really matters is what is in a person’s heart. So I ask when a Jehovah’s Witness is baptized, are they giving their life over primarily to Jehovah or to the JW Organization? I cannot make that judgment, however I note that free discussion and even disagreement with JW Org is not permitted in Bible Studies at the Kingdom Hall and therefore it seems to me that many congregation members are placing the authority of the Governing Body and JW Org above their own conscience in the study of scriptures and recognition of that as an authority above JW Org.
Hence, it would seem to me, that JWs who in their heart are submitting to Jehovah as supreme over the teachings of JW Org are in the Court condition, however JWs who at baptism are placing the authority of the organization above their own honest study to and submission to the teaching of scriptures, that in this case, I wonder if such a brother or sister would be in the Court condition. Beyond that, I would make no judgements of any particular brother or sister, leaving that in the hands of Jehovah. Certainly, I would give any JW I meet the benefit of the doubt.
I did not state that I believed Judas Iscariot went into second death. Sorry I was not clearer. My understanding of scripture was that it had been better for him had he been Stillborn and come back in the resurrection, rather than to come back and face the shame of his betrayal of the Master.
You said regarding those who oppose the Way, “if the course is not reversed now, it will be hard to reverse in the Kingdom (if such do make it that far). And to reform their character at that later date, despite the amount of knowledge and light received in this present time, would likely be extremely difficult – if not impossible.”
I share your concern and am hopeful that in many cases repentance will eventually be achieved.
Dear Peter K.
I neglected to respond to your questions:
‘Please help me to understand what difference you see between a regular baptized JW and an Anointed JW regarding the Holy Spirit. I once had a JW couple in my home discussing scriptures for hours and raised the question of whether they believed as baptized JWs that they had the holy spirit indwelling. The husband answered “yes,” and the wife corrected him with a “no.” If a regular baptized JW has the holy spirit indwelling (spirit begettal), how are they any different from the anointed? Do you think the three scriptures below apply to baptized JWs who are not anointed?’
Basically, the difference is as you described when discussing the Camp, the Court, the Holy, etc. A non-anointed Witness is in the Court, but hasn’t progressed any further (being hindered by the false teachings of the current Watchtower Society regarding the heavenly calling).
‘But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.’ (Matthew 23:13)
‘Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.’ (Matthew 23:15)
‘Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.’ (Luke 11:52)
These need to be *helped* to realise that they are in the Court, but could progress onwards into the Holy and Most Holy. Otherwise, the words of St. Paul may well apply in their (the individual Witness) case:
‘We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.’ (2 Corinthians 6:1)
Those that are justified to friendship with God (see Fiii) and fail to go on to make a full consecration. F682, 117; A236; R4629:2, 1669:5; SM762:1; Q396:3, 733:3
Thanks.
One more thing. You seemed to disagree with the statement I made:
‘It’s obvious that in the Kingdom Age there will be many who are not spirit begotten who will go into second death.’
You proceed to refer to Luke, who quotes from Joel in Acts 2:17, and certain other things- apparently in some way trying to suggest mankind will be spirt-begotten in the next age. If that’s the case, I completely disagree. Spirit begettal today is purely for the purpose of allowing some to become new spiritual creatures. Besides, when Adam sinned, he was not spirt-begotten, but was sentence to eternal death. Had it not been for the ransom provision, Adam would have been forever dead – effectively the same state as second death. There is no requirement for one to be spirt-begotten before they can go into a second death state.
To the Pastoral Bible institute ~ I’d like to thank you so much for the 3 booklets you sent to me. I am pretty much house bound and I love my Lord, I read a lot and cannot ever learn enough. Thank you again. May God bless you. In Jesus’ Love,
Diana
Brother Russel says that animals Kinds may have evolved within there species but regarding human evolution he said it’s entirely impossible a Christian must believe we are made in Gods image not some animal like beast in so called transition. Paster Russel was called by Brother Rutherford as the ‘greatest Paster alive in the world today’. He said this as his legal representative for 15 years up to the Paters death. He most certainly had adoration in Paster Russel. So those Christians who believe in Paster Russel cannot be evolutionists! John Cedars has made it clear he believes in evolution.
Temple BBQ……..Anyone can repent………even hard core “company men” for JW’s. I have seen it. I remember a district assembe in San Diego where a high ranking speaker made it very clear that ALL are ransomed and that Jehovah God is not like the fast talking lawyers that give everything in the big print and take it all away in the little print. Of course, this guy disappeared after he said that and was never seen again. Jehovah God knows who belons to him. Love is the key. Because Jesus dies for us ALL we are oblligated to be patient with those who speak against their own best interests, just as our Lord Jesus was. He would not accept anything less of those whom he will choose to share is rulership with. see Heb 12:3
WE ARE NOT ALONE! Anybody who has left the JW’s should view this video. it’s very encouraging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skcRUYRidPY&index=2&t=0s&list=LLTURrcpj-ht9UG9Das68Drg
Henry, thanks for posting this. I noticed the one comment Cedars wrote was the deep distress one feels when you begin the journey “coming out”. If the watchtower is correct then it should be able to stand up to the scrutiny this video will bring.
They might however have the ego thing and refute every little thing in the video instead of watching it to the end and filing it away. Cedars has come a long way since I first met him on this site. Glad to see these people free to think and believe what they can prove to their satisfaction. hopefully some will get encouragement from this excellently done video.
Henry,
I really enjoyed that video when I saw it. Thanks for posting the link for us all.
-greg
If a movie was ever made about my testimonial, I’d probably want Kevin McFree to direct it, and I imagine it would probably look an awful lot like his latest production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FX3VrKvacI
JW’s – Leaving The Yellow Brick Road
by kevin McFree and Published on Aug 8, 2018
It’s about 16 minutes in length.
I laughed a lot while watching this. I take that as a very good sign because I can recall a time when watching this would have made me cry myself to sleep for weeks–and not for any other reason than because it would have been the Painful Truth about “the truth” and because it hits so hard and so close to home. Happily, I’m done with most of my crying now. I can think clearly again, now that all the watchtower stuffing is gone from my head. I’ve got my heart back. I’ve got my courage back. And I’ve found my way “home”.
Enjoy this video, if you are able. Compassionate hugs to you if it’s still too painful for you to be able to laugh at it.
-greg
Greg,
That was quite entertaining! I watched one other he did besides that. Its a different sort of humor, but I enjoy it. My wife has never seen the wizard of oz so to her it dont make much since.😞
My X JW wife is unravelling yet again & recently followed advice from her congregation to throw out our 17 year old son from her house, for her custody weeks. I share equal custody, 1 week on & then 1 week off. What happened was this:
He’s been noticing that his mom has been acting like she’s possessed. A couple of months ago i had received a mesg from my x, voicemail sounding like great FEAR!! Said how she will throw him out if he wears the jewish star necklace i bought him & 2 bracelets from a nautical shop. She said these are demonic & cannot allow this in her religious home.(Now mind you she went off to Another country to have sex with her bf breaking my marriage vows.When coming forward to the elders, the elders turned on me & helped her to cheat on me further…forcing me to get a judge to throw her out of my home which made the elders turn on me worse) Cheating is ok. But jewelry is forbidden by Watchtower. She told me she will rip it off his body when she can overpower him. This led him to being hospitalized, but nothing that was obviously leading back to her. She then went thru a change & started being real loving. This was about May. Then late July, he brought a stone to her house about the size of the head of a sharpened pencil. He placed it on top of her religous books because he’s been noticing strange things with his mother while she engages in jw activities, she becomes more vicious with her words. He called out to Jesus & she flipped out on him. A screaming like nothing from this earth.He kept saying Jesus & she freaked out more!!Made him pack his bags & drove him to my home. Said her religion no longer allows him to be in her home, that she is within her rights of the law. That this is not abuse.That i need to get my facts straight(Her elders said she’s not breaking the law.Her friends in the Kingdom Hall are all rallying & patting her on the back for throwing out our son) She texted me that stones are not allowed in her home. Its against WT policy & that his necklace is from Satan, & that his shows he watches which are not JW Broadcast channel are all from the devil.
I said to her its amazing how our son invokes Christ name, & it led her to throw him out. So who is being controlled by demons???? I said how the JW’s in town here also flip out on me when i say JESUS also. She said she will just accuse him of going thru her personal belonging invading her privacy & some other false stories the elders have advised her so that she doesn’t ever see him again. I said that i hope the elders pat her on the back & use her in an upcoming part on the program so they can applaud her for disowning her flesh & blood who wants no part in the religion. She told me how i have not moved on with my life & am lost(words from her elders).
I told her that she cannot be worshipping Source Creator. Because my God would never require me to disown my son.
And that they are pulling her strings, & her thinking this is worship. But that its ok with me if she needs some other ppl to think for her. As for me, I’ve cut my stringsI have my son here free of her influence, & free of the elders taunting him telling him he will die by god.
He came back to me shaken but not stirred. He feels free.
Oh & btw….i’ve left in freedom in the beginning of 2014. Was the best decision of my life!
It however led to stalkings, repeated phone calls, messages of death threats from jw’s, loss of job sites as members called other members to unfriend me on social media & to fire me if they had me doing work for them, it led to them following my children home when walking home from school, announcements to not associate, announcements to literally run when seeing my family…which is quite comical to look at, elders making exaggerated facial expressions when they see me(that’s quite disturbing) so many intimidating bullying techniques. I told one elder, i see no difference between what they do in religious bullying & other terrorist groups. They may not have literal swords but in actuality they are killing us within the group, setting us up & controlling the groups view of the family by their false announcements to not associate with them when they haven’t done anything wrong. That we are being bullied & are merely speaking up against that WT.Policy.
I have seen so many of my old jw friends, & they look externally like the life is being sucked out of them. I see them at the mall with their literature carts & look so empty..no smiles. And many have become so obese in weight that i see them try to get back in their cars & have a hard time. Others look bizarre. Just my families observation. Anyways, my life is not empty anymore, though my ex says i haven’t moved on with my life. But I am truly happy & have Liberty in Christ no matter what she says about me. Now my son is Truly Free of their influence.
Dundee hello, its been a long time since we have talked. Br. Peter was such a help to you in your most difficult time, leaving.
This does indeed sound like the present day actions of He. Instead of being more logical they are getting wild and more fearful of demons than God. I see strangeness in the faces of some of the governing body when they give talks, something is not right there. They all wear the same expensive watches and rings thst they make sure are visible while they indoctrinate in their talks. I can’t put my finger on exactly what they are doing so I just stay away. I also can’t stay at relatives home overnite anymore so this must be their rule.
At least he is a boy and not a girl kicked out so viciously. He has you now. You not those men is his father. You really got a blessing, thank God for it! You son is free!
Say to yourself ” And this too shall pass”. That is how you jump these hurdles and survive and be a victor instead of a victim!
We have something new now. Testimony meeting tonight Saturday, where you can talk and even see us if desired.
Tune in tonight and let’s discuss your journey with other brothers.
Leave the ex to the elders, just deal with the mental health and well being of your family.
Hello Sister Jackie.I am in uk as you know.I am Interested in joining you on your Sat Night Site,Pls let me know the time difference & we will se if we can Join In.Christian Love,Bro Richard.
Hi Br. Richard.
As I type this, it’s currently 7:01pm EDT (or GMT -4:00). I’ll be opening up the room in just a minute or two, but officially, our meeting is scheduled to start in about an hour from now (that’s probably 12:00 AM / midnight your time).
I know it’ll be late for you, but I do hope you can join in.
-greg
Dear Bro Greg,Sorry I missed your reply before we went to bed.We will have to arrange a special meeting between us so that the newly Interested bretheren In Australia can join in with the ex Jw bretheren in The USA.We will be back in Australia around the 24th August after Attending the London Convention.Next Sunday we will be attending one of the classes in London,so if any of the Bretheren on this site Would like to include your Christian Love we would to pass it on to them.Hope to hear from as many of my dear Bretheren in the States.We also hope to be at the next General Convention in 2019.Christian Love from Kay & Richard Tazzyman
Br. Richard,
I’m sad that I didn’t see your request sooner. 🙂
Yes, please do pass along my love to the brethren.
And also, please keep me posted with regards to setting up a special meeting for all to get together to meet each other. I really like that idea.
Wishing you safe and happy travels,
-greg
Dundee…..I can’t remember the scriptue where it says: “The wicked flie when there is no pursurer, but the righteous are like a young lion………” or something like that. The faith to take our freedom in Christ is sure a delight, it can make us giddy sometimes. It is just best to keep a low profile and “just keep on keepin on” Cain hated his brother because his brother was righteous. Don’t give the enemy a inch. Just Stay Sweet and Good and God sort this all out.