On Nov 5, former JWs will talk. Part of their discussion will include the question: Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?. Find out more about this Nov 5 Webcast and how you can participate here.
Why do Bible Students use the symbol of the cross and crown? Would displaying a cross and crown on an elder’s podium be considered idolatry? What about wearing a cross and crown pin? In any case, was Jesus really crucified on a cross—or was it a stake? Wasn’t the cross a shameful pagan Roman symbol? Hasn’t the apostate Christian Church used the cross as in object of worship—kissing it, praying before it, etc. All fair questions. Read more hear in the article, Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?
If a Christian is “faithful till death” carrying his Cross, he will receive a “crown” of immortal life (Revelation 2:10). This scripture is the basis of the Bible Student Logo of the Cross & Crown, also depicted on the cover of the Watchtower Magazine (upper left corner) until discontinued by J.F. Rutherford.
Hi Ronshua.
Nice thoughtfulreply.However as a Jehovah’s witness myself we are at our congregation’s taught to have love for all our fellow neighbours and that includes all christians and other worshipers of whatever religion that what ever for christ died for all these as well.So what finer way to show this love that to preach to them about the coming kingdom that Jesus taught his follwers to do, For this is a life or death decission that we are facing as we near the time of the end when Jehovah by means or his son christ Jesus will bring to end and execute all oppposers of Jehovahs rulership which Christ himself was a supporter of. Matthew 6:9. Let your Kingdom come …. Daniel 2:44. and the God of heaven will se up a kingdom that will bring an end to all these kingdoms…….
Cannot understand Mr Peter K. Stateing a violation to JW.s. I came across this site purely by accident and not by choice, but what I cant understand is the attacks towards us by those who say they are too of a christ like nature.One point I would like to clarify is yes we do believe that the God of the Bible would indeed use just one channel to forward his dealings or purpose to wards mankind, However this might not be to your liking or view, but that dose seem to be the case throughout the whole of the Bible. Jehovah the God of the Bible is a God of order not disorder.
For instance when dealing with the nation of Israel Jehovah continualy stated for them not aling them selves with any other nation for fear that they would serve their gods and drift away from pure worship.He chose them they did not choose him Deu 7:7. When at the time of the flood Jehovah could see that all flesh was ruin in the sight og him but found favour in Noah and delt solely with him, the same applies to Mose’s, Ezekiel, Isasiah, Jerimiah etc, on many cases these in dividuals were killed and persecuted for bringing what the nation of Israel thought was a false report or prophet annoucment from Jehovah,
even Jesus intime himself was not excepteed by the majority of his nation vilified by his own people and finally executed. Jehovah only uses only one channel and one only not half a dozen, there are only two roads mentioned within the scriptures and two only again not many as many have viewed, the broad and spacious road or the cramped and narrow road.This illustration is illustrates the final out-come for the whole world either your on the one or the other. Jon
Greetings all , first let it be known I love all JWs, Ex-JWs,but no cigar awarded here , my goal is to love ever body , not just there Wifes , ha-ha . I started 60+ years ago a young Lutheran & am now a Messianic Pentecostal Preterist . Married 52 years to my childhood sweetheart , almost happily , another ha-ha .
As to the question , cross or stake ? What does Scripture say ? Cursed is anyone hung on a cross ( BONG ) wrong answer . Tree is the correct reply . As today is the same as then , a cross was & is too ( holy ) an execution instrument for that nonsense . The Standard paraded in front of every Roman military column was a tu cross with their victories displayed . ( where the eagles are gathered ) There are great answers before this post , if a Brother is unable , for one reason or another not to “see” , well what’s a Mother to do ? Pray .
My motive for posting is not to point out the obvious , BUT to ask a parallel question . Not unlike many Pilgrims on the same quest for Scripture understanding . My preponderance of that day yielded chiseled in rock truth , for me anyway . First the 2 different people required to carry ( THE ) stake . Answer , 2 different people & places an the trip . Both packed ( the ) stake for a distance . Then , They where hung on ( the ) stake , one on His right-hand & one on His Left-hand , He hung in between the other 2 on ( the ) stake . To expedite the event , the guards were ordered to break there legs . Those civil servants on a fixed salary went over to , the first & broke his legs then the second & broke his legs but when they CAME to the promised Messiah , he was dead .
SO tell me please , where is cross 2 & cross 3 in this story ? Please don’t try to sell me a U.S. Postal worker would pickup mail from one box walk two boxes down empty that one , then precede to the one in-between , please .
Hebrew law – no cutting trees . Torture poles/stakes weren’t unlike todays electric chairs , gas chambers or injection tables . There reused over & over town to town .
With three condemned on the same pole / stake a cross beam would be a complete fabrication .
Jesus died o a cross!!!
I don’t understand. I agree that some of the attacks on JWs are absurd and just plain wrong, you’re gonna get that within a network of billions of sites, but I also believe that when a group claim to be the sole channel through which God operates, then questions ought to be asked. Your(Peter K’s) mission statement to include current JWs in discussion on this website makes no sense to me, not that I care one way or the other. I have no problem with the people who make up JWs, but even though you may consider yourself their friend, they don’t think the same about you. They don’t even like you or me, or almost anyone on this site because of the site’s very nature. They would see it as an apostate’s haven, part of Babylon The Great or The Man of Lawlessness class soon to be exterminated at armageddon. Any JW caught by the WTBTS or a congregational representative participating in discussions here in any constructive or sypathetic way would be hauled in front of a commitee and in all likelyhood be disfellowshipped for being an apostate. It’s a bit like trying to cuddle up to a feral cat. Either the JWs organisation is from God or it isn’t. If it is, then why don’t you join them? If it isn’t, then why would you want to be their friend? After all, wouldn’t that mean they’re from Satan? Do you see a difference between JW’s and say… the Baptists or SDAs or The Twelve Tribes? This is all very confusing.
Fox – Thanks for your great comments. Some JWs violating strict policy by coming to our site and reading the material might be open to a two-way discussion. We hope so. However, regarding the many JWs that would condemn us, this isn’t as bad as the days when the Papal government supported cruel treatment of heretics, including prison, torture and death. After the Reformation, Protestant Church systems copied their Papal mother.
King James of England tried to enforce obedience to one Church, with all its forms and ceremonies and beliefs. Other kings had done this before him. Some of the Puritans were put in prison; others had their houses watched day and night, while still others were threatened with a loss of their means of livelihood. All of them lived in terror of the King and his agents. No wonder the Puritans resolved to leave the country, if possible.
America has historically been a beacon of light and liberty. This freedom permitted the early work of the Watchtower under Russell, which would have been quickly suppressed in Europe or elsewhere. Before his death, Russell had roundly defeated White and Eaton in debates. His sermons were in 2,000 newspapers reaching 20 million subscribers and the Photodrama was seen by over 9 million people. He was called the worlds Pastor and he was loved by the masses. All the preachers, pastors and priests in the world combined did not have his influence and reach among the people. His enemies nearly erased him from history, but the Internet has brought him back to life.
However, upon his death, a conspiracy moved forward with speed and stealth. The small group of freedom loving Bible Students were beaten and punished by a tyrant who rose up in Russell’s place. 75% of the original Bible Students left, not willing to succumb to the oppression. The new crops of people brought in, with the financial resources of Russell’s fortune, were not aware of the real history and were told that Bible Students were evil servants.
So why do we want to be friends of the JWs? Good question. Remember Jesus words:
Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. …32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. … 35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
The Apostle Paul said, “To the Jew, I became a Jew and to the Greek a Greek to win them to Christ.”
We are all sinners. We are all described as filthy rags. Bible Students believe in reaching our in love and compassion to anyone that will listen to the Gospel preached to Abraham, that through his seed (Christ and his followers Gal 3:28) all the families of the earth will be blessed. Jesus ransom provides the opportunity of life for ALL, even to those who are unbelievers today. Unbelievers will have the opportunity to accept Christ and obey God in the future Paradise Earth.
We would like to get a dialogue going with anyone that will talk. We want to talk about scriptures. We don’t want to condemn or attack anyone. We want to examine Bible topics together and discuss the scriptural evidence supporting each of our views, with the expectation that the Truth will rise to the surface, as it will be the view taught in the Bible, which can be proven by scriptures.
Seventh Day Adventists and Baptists, on the whole, are not as strict as the JWs. People who disagree are not separated from the families to the same degree. (This is an evil unsupportable by scriptures.) However, these other Church groups will not allow differences of opinion to be expressed in their Churches, which makes it nearly impossible for them to learn about the earthly kingdom, the time of blessings of all the families of the earth and the errors of hell, trinity and immortality of the soul. So basically, Bible Students have a problem with all Church denominations, since they all squelch freedom of thought an open discussion. We encourage Christian’s to return to the Early Church practice of electing Elders (Pastors) from their congregations and have open and free discussions and studies. We do not encourage paid ministry since a Pastor is pressured to support his denomination’s doctrinal views, lest he lose his financial livelihood.
Browsing through the number of web-sites quite frankly the number of them that are set up it seems to vehmiently attack Jehovah’s witnesses, and with some of the nasty things that have been aimed at them. I thought we lived in a free society of fairness not so it seems(well not towards the witnesses they seem to be excempt)Jesus stated a slave is not greater than his master if they persecuted me they will persecute you also. another place says. when he was being reveiled he did not go reviling back also. but he prayed for those who persecuted him and loved those who hated him. he taught his followers to do like wise. We are always instructed at our halls to do like wise, dispite the increasing persecution.
Not yet have I found one web-site by Jehovah’s witnesses by retaliating in like manner as I have read hear and other site’s perhaps you should question your faith, even if you do believe that you are “ALL” conclusively so right about your beliefs, the bible instructs us that love covers all things. Like Jesus who met the Samerian woman by the well, the two nations were known to absolutly hate each other, but Jesus kindly showed the way by preaching to her about his father and the good news for he had only a kind word and loved all.
Jon – I agree with you that some comments against JWs on the Internet are shamelessly vicious. We are so glad to hear your point of view. We want this website to be a place where JWs, Ex-JWs, Bible Students and others can have honest and sincere discussions on Bible topics of interest. We encourage all to be kind and loving, even if strong minded and to provide as much scriptural support for their views as possible.
I wouldn’t say Gordon that JW’S are a false group but are a people who have seen the need to change what has become exceptable views by mainstream christians on the many scriptual ideas, and perhaps maybe be in doubt as to acurate scriptual truths or not. With the passing of time this has becomes more apparantly so. For instance in Daniel 12: Jehovah says to Daniel(due to his lack of understanding of what he had wrtten) seal up the book until the time of the end and then all will be revealed to those (to whom he will choose) to having insight.
When Jesus before his departure to his father in the heavens he stated to his disciples it dose not belong to you to know these things, but the father will reveal them to you at the appropreate time,Jesus also said that he would also send a helper (the holy spirit)and he will help to reveal scriptual understanding to his disciple’s in due course.So this seems to indicates that even as the first century disciple had, had them revealed to them we also have had them revealed in this like-manner to us also.
For instance it has been well excepted that certain doctrines which are held by the christendom churches, on hell fire trinity and immortallty of the human soul along with others have been well excepted, but have you ever considered exactly what it is that the bible is really implying as reguards to these views and others?
I my self am a Jehovah’s witness and I can see no other good than to talk to people, as Jesus indicated, about his fathers kingdom which he had promised and will bestowe untold blessings upon all of mankind on earth in the very near future, the bible shows this. This very kingdom which all christians like yourself pray for Matthew 6:9. Let your KINGDOM come let your WILL take plce as in heaven also upon EARTH… This kingdom is also refered to by the prophets within the bible Daniel 2:44. And the Good of heaven eill set up a kingdom and it itself will never be brought to ruin ans will not be given to any other people, It itsel will crush and destroy all these kingdoms(man made rulerships) and will stand to times indefinite. This kingdom will replace all human rulerships governments that has dominate man since Jehovah allowed them to do so, only until their exspiry date Luke 21:24. and then clear all away for this long awaited rule,Revelations 21: 4- He will wipe out every tears from their eyes and death will be noe more no more out cry or pain the former things have passed away..Is that not what you want? Jonathan Harvey.
What about the print of the nails (plural)? If he was on a stake one hand would have to be nailed above the other because 2 nails were used. If it was a cross piece then 2 nails had to be used. It would have to be a lowered cross piece in order to put the signs over his head. Strongs dictionary doesn’t answer the queation for sure. It could be an upright post or pillar without the cross piece. Jehovah Witnesses are a false group of worshippers. Their leadership has changed views like one changes socks. Research their beliefs on the internet. Would Gods true ministers contradict themselves. No. J. W.’s think Jesus was or is Michael the Archangel. Jesus was made so much better than the angels, being the Son of God (inheritance). All these false beliefs are from people who misinterpret unclear scriptures and ignore many scriptures that are crystal clear. Gordy
Gunnar Samuelsson — a theologian at the University of Gothenburg and author of a 400-page thesis on crucifixion in antiquity — doesn’t doubt that Jesus died on Calvary hill. But he argues that the New Testament is in fact far more ambiguous about the exact method of the Messiah’s execution than many Christians are aware.
“When the Gospels refer to the death of Jesus, they just say that he was forced to carry a “stauros” out to Calvary,” he told AOL News. Many scholars have interpreted that ancient Greek noun as meaning “cross,” and the verb derived from it, “anastauroun,” as implying crucifixion. But during his three-and-a-half-year study of texts from around 800 BC to the end of the first century AD, Samuelsson realized the words had more than one defined meaning.
Christophe Simon, AFP/Getty Images
This iconic image of Christ dying on the cross may be misleading, according to theologian Gunnar Samuelsson, who says crucifixion was more rare than commonly thought.
“‘Stauros’ is actually used to describe a lot of different poles and execution devices,” he says. “So the device described in the Gospels could have been a cross, but it could also have been a spiked pole, or a tree trunk, or something entirely different.” In turn, “anastauroun” was used to signify everything from the act of “raising hands to suspending a musical instrument.”
The manner in which Jesus died is further thrown into question by Samuelsson’s discovery that crucifixion may have been an unusual form of punishment in the Roman Empire. Descriptions of crucifixions contained in the thousands of Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek manuscripts he examined most commonly referred to dead prisoners being placed on some form of suspension device, or living captives skewered on stakes. The first century Roman philosopher Seneca the Younger, for example, wrote about seeing a great many prisoners of war on “crosses” after one campaign. But the scribe then describes how a large number of the dead had been impaled.
“If you search for ancient texts that specifically mention the act of crucifixion [as we understand it today]” he says, “you will end up with only two or three examples.”
That revelation stands in stark contrast to claims that appear in many books on the historical Jesus, as well as more general surveys of life under Roman rule, which state that prisoners were routinely nailed to crosses. (The Encylopaedia Britannica, for example, says crucifixion was an “important method of capital punishment” in Rome.)
Of course, this lack of hard evidence doesn’t mean that the Roman Empire was a crucifix-free zone. Samuelsson suspects that crucifixion was simply one of a great many methods of execution employed across the empire. He notes that Flavius Josephus — a Jewish historian and adviser to three Roman emperors in the 1st century — recorded how Roman soldiers were allowed to use their “wicked minds in various ways to execute” prisoners captured during a Jewish uprising. This suggests that the method of Jesus’ execution may have been decided by legionnaires stationed at Calvary, and not by the state.
“If we put this on the table, and think that the execution of Jesus was the result of the wicked mind of the soldiers at that very point, we can’t know how he could have been executed,” Samuelsson says. “The executions of that day could have taken a completely different form from ones the day before.”
The Swedish scholar isn’t sure exactly why the crucifix went on to become the dominant Christian motif. But this symbol only seems to have become fixed in followers’ minds long after Jesus’ death, as the first T and X shaped crucifixes appear in Christian manuscripts around the 2nd century AD.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Samuelsson’s thesis has caused something of an unheavenly row. While fellow theologians have complimented his highly detailed research, many critics in the blogosphere have claimed that he wants to undermine Christianity. Samuelsson — who believes that “the man who walked this earth was the Son of God, and that he will return to judge the living and the dead” — says this accusation is simply “stupid.”
“I’m really just a boring, conservative pastor and I start every day reading the New Testament,” he says. “But my suggestion is that we should read the text as it is, not as we think it is.”
take a look here too:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/01/bible-doesnt-say-jesus-was-crucified-scholar-claims/?hpt=C1
Rubens – Thanks for a very intelligent and well thought out discussion.
The question comes to my mind, for the Christian that does not kiss or worship the cross as an idol, why should this question be a matter of so great importance as it is with JWs?
Back to the discussion. Jesus did not die of asphyxiation, but rather from shock and trauma. Additionally, an impaled man with arms stretched straight over his head (as the Watchtower depicts) would suffocate in minutes, whereas a man with hands outstretched to the side at an angle of 60 70 degrees (as on a cross) could live for hours without suffocating.
If a stake were used, instead of a cross, then Jesus’ hands would have been placed above His head with a nail driven through His wrists. Since the wrists would most likely overlap, only one nail is needed through both wrists. However, John 20:25 says,
“The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
Notice the use of the word nails (plural) in reference to hands (plural). It makes far more sense to say that Jesus was crucified on a cross with outstretched hands and one nail in each hand placed above each other on a stake. That is why it says “…in his hands the print of the nails…”
Therefore, it seems to me most logical to state that Jesus died on a cross with outstretched arms.
How much our dear Lord Jesus suffered for us and all mankind. How thankful and humbled we are to know that his suffering and death paid the price completely. How thankful we are to know that he is glorified now. thank you for your service.
All four of the gospels include some statement about “carrying the cross” (or “torture stake” as Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret it.) What is not stated in any of the gospels was how that ‘cross’ was implanted in the ground. Any stake of long enough to impale a man so high that a soldier standing on the ground needed a stick to reach up to Jesus’ mouth with vinegar would certainly need to planted deep in the ground in order to support the off-balanced weight. How exactly was that done? Was a hole dug for each crucifixion? Who was made to dig that hole? Certainly not the prisoner who, like Jesus, were beaten so badly prior to execution that they were incapable of carrying their own cross, let alone spend hours digging a post hole for what might have been a 20 foot tall pole. Do you think an officer would assign Roman soldiers to do this dirty job every time there was a crucifixion? Or do you think Jesus dug his own hole and it just didn’t get documented by the Gospel writers? The biblical record, which goes to great detail about Simon from Cyrene, father of Alexander and Rufus was forced by Romans to carry this burden and yet it nowhere mentions who had the task of digging the hole. Why would that be?
I for one believe that the upright part [the “stake” portion] of the cross was most likely a well-rooted tree like those which once lined the 120 miles of the Appian Way upon which 6,000 of Spartacus’ rebel slaves were crucified.
If the vertical portion is a tree, then what exactly was the “cross” that Jesus was required to carry?
How about a crossbeam—the shorter horizontal piece of the cross? The purpose of this was to extend the suffering of the condemned man. According to those who witnessed this horrific practice, a man impaled in the arms-over-head position as pictured in Jehovah’s Witness’ Watchtower publications, would live only a matter of minutes (and the body left to rot), while the torture of those positioned in the open-armed style could be prolonged for many desperate hours before death came.