On Nov 5, former JWs will talk. Part of their discussion will include the question: Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?. Find out more about this Nov 5 Webcast and how you can participate here.
Why do Bible Students use the symbol of the cross and crown? Would displaying a cross and crown on an elder’s podium be considered idolatry? What about wearing a cross and crown pin? In any case, was Jesus really crucified on a cross—or was it a stake? Wasn’t the cross a shameful pagan Roman symbol? Hasn’t the apostate Christian Church used the cross as in object of worship—kissing it, praying before it, etc. All fair questions. Read more hear in the article, Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?
If a Christian is “faithful till death” carrying his Cross, he will receive a “crown” of immortal life (Revelation 2:10). This scripture is the basis of the Bible Student Logo of the Cross & Crown, also depicted on the cover of the Watchtower Magazine (upper left corner) until discontinued by J.F. Rutherford.
Jacqueline thank you for your post.It’s nice to know that bible students don’t worship the cross,I do not either,as a matter of fact I wonder how many well meaning true Christians would say they do worship the cross..simply wearing one around the neck does not mean that the person is worshiping,venerating,or bowing down to it…reasonable people can disagree on that however one should not make a judgement against someone wearing a cross round the neck,that judgment should be made by God…unless you see someone bowing down to one,then well I will have to let catholics fend for themselves, they have alot of splaining to do(as RICKY R. WOULD SAY)on many issues..thank you.. NO I feel as Paul described in 1cor.1:17-31
Dear Jon,
I know you addressed your comments to Jacqueline so I will let her comment on your entry or not…but I believe you meant to say Rutherford in the beginning of your post…for Russell until his death had no problem with the cross as it was also on the cover of the watchtower until Rutherford took it off I’m sure after some brother came up to him while he was sober (well maybe not) and showed him Vine’s expository and said “yo’ brother Judge it says here that stauros in greek means post or stake,sure enough this means NEW LIGHT and down it went to the 4th floor(wherever the printing is done)and on the next issue of watchtower…I will Jacqueline comment if she wants to
Jon,
I think I said Rutherford wanted to be different not Russell.
Also I was a third generation witness for 61 years. My grandfater was from 1905 with Bro Russell. I am generally recognized in the congregation of jehovah witnesses by the Elders as a almost historian on JW beliefs. I just left finally in 2009. I have slept at Bethel many times and know a little intricately a lot about the headquarters. I have read the two Babylons many years ago but would need to reveiew. I have read both of Raymond Franz’s books from front to cover twice. I appreciate the fine biblical comments but I know about JW doctrine, I was dedicated to the organization.
Thank you, hope to meet you on the internet chat Friday the 5th.
Jacqueline hi.
It was n’t that Russell wanted to be diffrent it was that he could forseen and realise that through his studies of the scriptures that he began to understand and could see, that Christ return (presence, parousea, please read the classical greek text not modern greek) would be an invisible one and not that in the flesh as many of Chrisendoms churches belive in.The reason for the indications of signs pointed out by Christ himself in matthew Mark and Luke,shows it would be by the sign (plural) (composite, but made up of many parts) that would indicate his presence, as now established rightful heir and ruler king in Kingdom power. Also that the for-told promise to the heir of that Davinic kingdom throne that would be bestowed upon him by his heavanly father Jehovah 1 Chron 28:5. Solomon began to sit upon the kingship of Jehovah over Isrsel. Psalms 110:1-11 Daniel 2:31-49 (the image) Daniel 4:13-32.(the tree) notice verse’s 17,25,32, and to the one whom he wants to he will give’s it(that is the rightful heir to the kingdom,after the seven times had passed Luke 21:24. Namely the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled)
According to my understanding of the scriptures, that, I would feel that Jehovah the God of the Bible wouldn’t really appreciate any worship or veneration towards any idols of any type of image no matter how innocent it may appear to be what’s so ever, as Psalms 115:2-8 Isaiah 42:8. and many other scriptual refrences show this throught out 1John 4:21.
Russell gradually began to see through his studies of the Bible that much of todays Biblical religions views are (and still are) steeped in Babylonish doctrines and traditions of men rather than pure truths of the Bible, like Tyndale and Wycliff too!,and we all know what happened to them by the churches for trying to be diffrent.
He began to gradually see that certain doctrine that had been well excepted by the church over many hundreds of years(and who would dear challenge the authority of the church!)wern’t quite true. For instance if you look at the King jaames version of the Bible at Matthew 24:36 it states there “Concerning the day and….neither the angels but the father only” However in the classical greek rendering it say’s “Concerning….neither the angels nor the son, but the father only” The reason for omiting part of that verse in the K.J. is that it did’nt suport the trinity doctrine, and triad gods and godesses was not part of the Jewish belief and pure worship in general.
Could I just cear up one more point please Jehovah’s witnesses are not known and do not wish to be know as Russellites, (we neither give our praise to any man or any other being other that Jehovah the God of the Bible Isaiah 43:10), who has been used by Jehovah at these times of the end for revealing pure truths of the Bible. In our many literiture books mag’s etc we attribute and ascribe no glory aproval etc to none to any indivdual, but all to the praise to our hevanly father Jehovah God for his holy spirit, of revealing truths to all who wish to avail themselves at this crucial time of the end. Daniel 12:4. “make secret the words and seal up the book until the time of the end, many will rove ubout(searching the scriptures)and the true knowledge will become abundant”
Hope you can understand much of this I’ve not always been a Jehovah’s witnesse but what did help me to some extent was a book written by by Alaxnandrea hislop, called the two Babylons this may be of some servce to you, as it did me it actually opened my eyes and I began to see a completely diffrent view, but that is my choice and mine only you have to make your own, all the best Jonty.
Joey,
I do believe now, after all evidence and learning that Rutherford wanted to be different, that Jesus died on a cross.
I recognize that the Bible Students do not worship it.
Exodus 20:4,5 is violated tho by most of Christianity. They give more homage to the actual instrument of torture than the Christ himself. I know many argue that is is what it represents, but better to wear a Christ picture around the neck in that instance. And I do believe God feels the same way as he did in the Exodus warning, that he is Jealous.
But again welcome and see you at the podcast on Friday. Peace
I am new to this site and appreciate the oppurtunity to comment..I am not a Jehovahs’witness and I am not a believer in C.T. Russells teachings however I realize the impact that his teachings have on the folks on this site both J.W. and ”Russellite” also known as bible students.Without going deeply into the doctrines that Russell taught I believe there is sound scriptural basis for the diety of Christ from the obvious scriptures that everyone knows and seem happy to refute to the verses which when read lead a reasonable person to see the simplicity and beauty of Jesus’ diety; there are many but I include two: john20:28 and acts 20:28……john 20:28 in the greek: o kurios mou kai o theos mou..Lord of me and God of me acts 20:28 take heed…to tend the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.. NWT changes it to read the blood of his own son..Not what is in the greek…Obviously I can be challenged on this but prayerfully consider that the word of God cannot,elst you find yourself arguing with scripture…26 years I have been following this debate and I find when you put the ”sword” which is the Word of God in front of a truthseeker(wether they think they have the truth or not) the truthseeker may fall on the sword or impale themselves with it.That would be the Holy Spirit doing what he loves, lifting veils and blinds,convicting sinners and bringing them to Jesus Christ.As for Jesus’ arms being above and nailed or to his sides outstretched,I support scripture as mentioned above by Peter K john 20:25 is sharpened by matthew 27:37 37. And set up over his HEAD HEAD HEAD and for emphasis (head or cabeza in spanish)his accusation written,THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Naturally and physiologically and common reason clearly shows that the placard would have been placed above his HANDS if he was on an upright beam or stake and his hands above his head.Why that Swedish professor had to read thru reams of boring and gruesome details when all he had to do is read the gospels carefully.Jesus carried a parabellum to golgotha and his hands nailed to it then he was lifted up to the stauros or stake whereupon it formed to the eyewitnesses a cross. Sometimes people get too much education and their heads begin to form a point.romans1:22 comes to mind,also that other scripture of Paul where he says in 1cor.1:20….Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? And again isn’t the cross foolishness to them that perish but the power of God for them that believe…also there is another verse about foolishness it is 1cor.1:27….for two thousand years everyone understood what the cross meant, then someone showed an imbecile and a a$$ named Joe Rutherford the word stauros probably in Vine’s expo’ and just like that the rank and file fall into place. Rutherford has done more to destroy cordial discourse with Christians for he seemed to relish confrontation.I just don’t understand how if the bible students were in the majority they could let a a$$(his word after failed ’25 prophecy)do a coup de tate? Someone please answer?
You are quite right about the 144,000 they are to be kings and priest(to rule and to administer spiritual food) to be joint heirs with the chrst for the restitution of mankind over the 1,000 years rein of the Christ, but unfortunately those who reject the message that is being sounded out now about the kingdom Matthew 24: 14. “this goodnews of the Kingdom…… before hand at this particular time prior to armaggedon will perish indefinately if they continue to not listen. Those who do paty atention and are found in favourable conditon by Jehovah will qualify to enter into that new system of things these ones will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb , those who come out of the great tribulation, If as you are saying that that hope will also be for those who die at Armaggeddon then what’s all the point in me and you trying to be found by him finaly spotless and unblemished. As you well know Peter Jesus christ and the other apostoles refered to “Just as the days of Noah were so the presence of the son of man will be” (christ) the reason Noah and lot were chosen to illustrate in a similar way shows there will be a warning saving message work for our own salvation and those who listen to us,such like a preaching work as Noah also did and a destruction of those “who took no note” (not because they were wicked) as we are all wicked in Jehovahs eyes, it’s just hat they refuse to take note The Bible clearly states that there will be an exstermination globlely
Proverbs 2:20-22 the wicked will be cut off and as for the treturous they will indeed be torn away from the earth. Psalms 37:9-11 the wicked will ineed be cut off.
Those who had died during Noahs day,and that of Lots day, Adam and eve, the majority of those connected to Babylon the great “Get out of her Get out of her if you do not want to received part of her plagues” again in Zepheniah it say’a “Their bodies will not be buried nor bewailed as manure upon the ground they will lie from one end of the earth to the other” (zepheniah) Jehovahs executing judgement would have already been passed upon these groups their deaths therefore is symbolised by the second death, Gehennah, lake of fire,(or is a final condition) The fist death is what the majority of us will experience in this system of things before Jehovahs great day and thereby will be in line for the resurrection hope this will mean that countless billions of mankind those who have, not only died for their sins, but also those who have died in complete ignorance of not knowing of Jehovahs purpose, with conection with the Christ Ephesians 3:11.
Jesus actually spoke to those who constantly taunted him even though they had no excuse of not knowing that he “WAS” indeed the Christ he proved conclusively that he did have the credentials to prove his messiahship however the pharases refused to acknowldge this due to the fact they thought more of their personal possition of control and power over the masses and that’s why Christ said to them “You shut the kingdom of God to such like ones as these, how are you to excape Gehennah?” (meaning how are you to escape being in line for the second death) eternal destruction.
So really Peter if I take you stance there really is no need for me to wash my robes for we all qualify
As time moves on true scriptual clarification has becomes apparant and we have been seen to humbly take steps to make adjustments and corrections, and then we move on in line with the thoughts from the bible, all scriptures are inspired 2 Tim 3:16 this takes not only time but prayerful concideration and prayerful effort. No new truths come in an instant flash these have to be view with refference’s to other scriptures. For-instance you may say that heavan is all of our future inherited destinations to be with God, but Biblical truths strongly point out the fact that it is the earth that God has reserved for the sons of mankind and the heavan’s belong to him, the scritures do point to this fact as you well know. Where else is the paradise (garden like place) going to be? The many refrence’s to this points this out clearly.
I did ask a Baptist christian this question once and he said to me we will all sit upon thrones in rowes upon rowes in heaven, for awhile I desparatly tried to grasp this idea and go along with it but thought what’s the purpose in that!
It wasn’t though until the Witnesses corrected my view using the scriptures I began to se the sense in it all.
What i do find though when I read some of the remarks posted on just on this site but others too!(naughty boy!) is that people harp on as to what really amounts to old well warn and well forgotten views once held but now deleted ideas. The cross, Christmas, birthday,s and many others are all now past and deleted ideas we moved on since then to the more enlighten corrections.
Jon.
Jon,
Please let me clarify a misunderstanding. You said this, “you may say that heaven is all of our future inherited destinations to be with God.” Like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bible Students believe the 144,000 (bride of Christ) are to be in heaven with Jesus. We understand that the rest of mankind will be on Paradise earth. The main difference is that JWs see most people, particularly those dying in Armageddon, as being destroyed forever. We see these unbelievers as coming back to Paradise earth to be taught God’s ways of righteousness and to be judged by their reaction to it at end of the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom.
The purpose of the 144,000 is, as Christ’s body members, to be kings and priests with him in the work of restoring mankind to obedience and perfection on paradise earth. Scriptural support for these views are provided in this website and I would be glad to point you to an article on any of these points if you so request.
The light growing brighter does not mean that Truth changes, just that it becomes clearer. Those who have been JWs for over fifty years have lived through several reversals on the questions as to whether or not the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will come back on Paradise earth.
Jon – If you study a bible topic and in good conscience come to a conclusion supported by scriptures, but the Governing Body sees it differently, will you go by what the scriptures say or by what the Governing Body says?
I look forward to hearing from you again.
The govening body of Jehovahs witnesses, how should one view these individuals who truely believe that they are the sole ones being guided to day into revealing Biblical truths as to the times in which we are living.
When Jesus was baptised and after coming down from the mountain, he entered into the synagogue and to him the attendate handed him the scroll of Isaiah and from it he opened it up to the place where it read Isaiah 61:1-2 after reading the scripture he said today this scripture (prophcey) has been fulfilled with that all eyes were firmily fix upon him.
Just think after years of traditions of Jewish religious rule this chap comes along and says this in their own place of worship!.In raged they soon hurry him out side to throw christ head long over a clff. In other words wer’e not having this chap going to start tell us what to do as we hold dearly to our traditoins and practice’s of our forfathers.
In Peter 2:4-6 it tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness,(Yes a precher too not just a builder of arks) “Of what you may ask!
Well he must have had some divinely instructed in some way and of the need to be inform and instructed, however as the case shows he was ridiculed mocked made fun of, only until they (they people) “Took no note until the flood came and swept them all away”, Matthew 24:39, “So then at the time of the presence of the son of man be” So then the question is this, if like in noah’s day will there will be a similar situation in a preching wor like that of Noah’s day too!, at the time of the end “The presence of the son of man” Who therefore has been given the asignment by Jehovah to forward into revealing to all of mankind Jehovahs purpose? Is it the Pope who house’s himself in the vatican? What about The church of christendom? who then? perhaps the musliums Hindus mormons? have they been asign the honour of this very important work?
Looking back on the two examples given of christ and Noah, it generally has been the same results, no matter who has been given this privilge task they will always sucum to being ridiculed mocked made fun of false witness against 2 Peter 3:3-4.etc etc. so you just cant please and satisfy every body needs.
But christ wasn’t wrong niether was Noah on both acounts and other too, Jehovah warning sounding out, now how you personally respond is purely up to all of you, you can either except or reject, as the Bible indicates though sadly to say the majority of mankind will totally reject the Kingdom message
Jon
Jon – I am enjoying reading your thoughts. I appreciate the way you support your points with scriptures. I believe that most Christians would object if we told them that we believed that a special person or group of people were selected by Jehovah to dispense Truth. Yet ironically, most Christians accept the teachings of their denomination as fact and accept the authority of their Priests, Pastors and their own Church’s governing body. As we read the Bible, we see that throughout Biblical history, Jehovah selected special ones to be spiritual leaders and guides for the people. We are given a long list of these in Hebrews 11, including Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel, etc.
The early Watchtower Bible Students believed that the Gospel Age was divided into seven consecutive periods of time, symbolically pictured by the seven churches of Revelation 2-3. (We have comments on this under the Revelation category in the left side of this website.) Bible Students back then and also today, believed that the seven messengers listed to each of these churches were seven Christian leaders at different points in Gospel Age history (i.e. Martin Luther). This concept is supported by the fact that the seven messengers (angels) are called “seven stars” in Rev 1:20. Notice in Rev 12:1 that the woman (church) is crowned with “twelve starts” (twelve apostles). These twelve stars or apostles were men who were the light bearers of the Church from the beginning of the Gospel Age. So the seven stars were also men who were light bearers of the Gospel Church, but spread historically throughout the Gospel Age at the beginning of each of the seven consecutive church periods. We believe that Pastor C. T. Russell was the seventh messenger to the Church of Laodicea. – consecutive Rev 3:14
The danger here is in throwing the responsibility of personal study to the wind and simply accepting the authority. In Act 17:11, the Apostle Paul commended the Berean brethren for checking what he said against scripture to verify his teaching. There is no authority higher than God’s Word and any teaching that does not square with it should be rejected. Hypothetically, if I were a Mormon and I believed that the Mormon Governing Body was my authority and that I was not to question them, how would I ever discover that they are wrong if I am not willing to open my mind to put them to the test? The JW Governing Body and Pastor Russell must be put to that same test.
I personally have a problem with the JW Governing Body in these areas:
1) Intolerance to differences of opinion that are based on conscience and scripture.
2) Changes and contradictions in teachings. This might not be so bad, if they would allow freedom of opinion among their members.
3) Tolerance in permitting and enabling pedophilia and adultery among their leaders and members.
Regarding the Ransom for ALL and my expectation that unbelievers will have their opportunity for everlasting life in the future Paradise earth, I would encourage you to review the “Ransom” category on the left side of the website and let me know why you disagree with the scriptural evidence for this position.
Thanks Jon for sharing your thoughts. I hope my response is of interest to you.
Just reading some of these remarks I would like to clarify our position if I may and try to clear up any misunderstandings with reasonable scriptual debate.
firstly Yes Jehovah’s witmnesses can be some what restrictive we have to be esspecially in this world enticements,You must be prepared to carry Christ torture stake in all things, do you not think that I’ve’ had to face this myself? indeed I have. So why then is this the case! Part of the scriptual reason being is, that we live in a world that is totally under the influence of satan, this powerful seductive satanic spirit himself, Jesus spoke of him as the ruler, “the ruler of the world”, When satan took christ to a lofty mountain, after his baptism satan presented Jesus in a vision to all the kingdoms(man-made rulerships which consists of those ruling powers and governments by man)of the world, this conclusively showed he, satan, had the power and controling choice as to bestowe them even to the Christ for just one act of worship to him.
The system in which we live in today is no diffrent than when Christ was on earth,wev’e just moved along abitin time, it’s still under the influence of this same satanic spirit. So with this in mind we are scriptualy reminded of this fact throughout the scriptures. Pauls letters to Corinthians etc.
The world and all that that is in it, can be an ever attractive delightful well meaning place to live in, and can be so alluring to the eyes, to the flesh, and to the mind, which can only decieve or trick those into thinking that all’s well with this world and what it stands for. If you wanted to forge or counterfeit some genuine article how will you go about it? Satan is an absolute master at this, politics, religion, comerce and military elements all come under his disguise.
Jehovah’s witnesses have long held the scriptual view that this man-made system of things is going to come to an abrubt end with it’s final end soon to come, whether you wish to except that scriptual view or not thats your choice, that is what seems to be the case,Matthew 24:3-14.”and this goodnews of the kingdom will be preached and THE THE END WILL COME” However what Jehovah God dose promise, is to replace this old system under the control of satan with a new one, which the Bible calls the ages of things to come Mark 10:29-30 there is plenty of other scriptures to support this view Psalms 37:9-11 Proverbs 2: 20-22 Isaiah 45:18. Matthew 5: 4. christ quotes from Psalms 37:9-11 the meek will inherit the earth. However Jehovah is preparing all of this for YOUR’S and mine benefit, and thereby set the terms and conditions for his subjects who would so willingly wish to avail themselves to this,to this wonderful hope if they wish to do so (like having a new contract with a company there will always be terms amd conditions to abide by for the safty and well being of others) to be part of his new earthly order of things to come, in Corinthians 6:? it states there in part “what do you not know that unrighteouse persons will not inherit the kingdom neither fornicators adulters theives greedy persons extortioners…. men who lie with men will inherit Gods kingdom”(in other words if you do not try to meet the criteria or the requiements bestowed to you or me will be bard from entering into that contractual arrangement)
So there are the terms if we wish to apply them to ourselves if we wish to. It’s very much like being in a cirle, you can either view the cirle as making you restrictive in your movements or you can view the cirle as a protection for yourselves, from out-side sources that mold and influence your thinking rather than allowing Jehovah God to do so for your eternal benefit.
The choice of course is yours. Jesus stated that there would be only two roads within the frame-work of this satanic system of things, “The broad and spacious road(the independent thinking life style by those of this systen of things which is governed and controled by the worlds attitudes) or the cramp and narrow road,(The scriptual views, which stops true worshipers from being contaminated by the inflientual ideaologies views and false life style pertaining to the world and the worlds standards) which restrictions are Bible based.
Peter K. if you think we are false then perhaps you could give me any sound scriptual reasonable evidence of your claim on this web-site for all to see and then I can if I may be allowed I could try and defend your statement “Fair!”
Jon,
I really appreciate your comments on our site. We would like this site to be a place where Jehovah’s Witnesses have an opportunity to explain their views and respond to questions or statements from others. I would like to encourage a polite and respectful tone from all.
A big objection I have is your obligation to follow the Governing Body and the lack of freedom and liberty to follow your conscience. We talk about this here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/09/does-the-bible-support-a-governing-body/
However, I have the same complaint about other churches as well. I cannot attend a denominational church and publically have any forum for expressing my view on scriptures, if it is different from the official church position. I don’t’ think that most other churches are as strict as Jehovah’s Witnesses, especially in terms of breaking up families of those who reject the JWs after being baptized. I don’t see the scriptural authorization for this or for other churches not allowing freedom to openly discuss scriptures and differences of opinion.
I would not say Jehovah’s Witnesses are false. There are many things we agree on as you can see on the “We Believe” page. In my estimation, the biggest areas of importance we disagree with are:
1) We believe the Christian should pursue the heavenly call, not an earthly hope.
2) We believe that Jehovah is gathering the Jews back to Israel and that they will repent and be a nation of blessing on Paradise Earth.
3) We believe Jesus died a Ransom for all and that even unbelievers will come back to life on Paradise Earth and at that time have the opportunity for learning, blessing and judgment.
4) We believe that God permits evil as a lesson of the consequences of sin, so that all mankind, when they come back to life from death on Paradise Earth, will be in a position of experience to make their decision as to whether to pursue righteousness or evil in Jehovah’s kingdom.
You said, “Yes Jehovah’s witnesses can be some what restrictive we have to be especially in this world’s enticements.”
I understand the enticements and dangers of which you speak. Jehovah has given us His Son, the Holy Spirit, His Word and the armor of God to battle against the world, the flesh and the devil. By what authority does any governing body, church or religious institution have the right to dictate rules for life, behavior and doctrine? Where is the scriptural authorization for this?
Jon – you welcome to answer this question or open up anything else for discussion. Thanks again for contributions. We look forward to hearing more from you.