On Nov 5, former JWs will talk. Part of their discussion will include the question: Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?. Find out more about this Nov 5 Webcast and how you can participate here.
Why do Bible Students use the symbol of the cross and crown? Would displaying a cross and crown on an elder’s podium be considered idolatry? What about wearing a cross and crown pin? In any case, was Jesus really crucified on a cross—or was it a stake? Wasn’t the cross a shameful pagan Roman symbol? Hasn’t the apostate Christian Church used the cross as in object of worship—kissing it, praying before it, etc. All fair questions. Read more hear in the article, Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?
If a Christian is “faithful till death” carrying his Cross, he will receive a “crown” of immortal life (Revelation 2:10). This scripture is the basis of the Bible Student Logo of the Cross & Crown, also depicted on the cover of the Watchtower Magazine (upper left corner) until discontinued by J.F. Rutherford.
Greetings fellow Saints , Sister Jacqueline our JW Brothers & Sisters shelter many Scripture truths , correctly translating Strong’s 4716 is just one in truth .
Question for you Sister , what does Scriptural truth have to do with what ” society now says “? For the love of our Messiah , don’t take what I say , or anyone else but Scripture only from at least four versions of Scripture , Strong’s , Vine’s & some good Dictionary’s . e-Sword installed on your computer , would make it all fingertip .
To think for a nanosecond truth isn’t paramount , do a word search for TRUTH ,then make the same statement as above .
The cross is what ? What evil people burn in front of weaker people’s abodes , a symbol that exterminated 6 million Jews in the 40’s , what warlocks use & is the phallic symbol of the original trinity of “gods” of natural forces , Tower of Babble “gods”.
Read the Torah thoughtfully , then reason in your mind if those people bent on killing our Redeemer would’ve stood still for a cross symbol erected just outside of the Temple gate ? Pilot gave into that crazed bunch , think about it .
You can’t have a cross beam on a up right pale with three people hanging “hand on hand” ! Show me any other stakes in Scripture ! “THE stake”,”There stake”is all you’ll find !
AlluaYAH
Ronshua, Greetings!
Regards your question to me, please explain. I don’t understand exactly what teaching of the society you are questioning as regards scriptural truths. I do have the online Bible and the eight translation Bible, it is very helpful to have different versions to sometimes get the full flavor. Thanks for your imput.
“The New Testament word ‘cross’ is an incorrect
translation of the Greek word stauros. The word
“stauros” referred to any upright wooden stake
firmly fixed in the ground. A stauros could serve
a variety of purposes as, for example, a pole in
a picket fence. The word stauros also represented
a pointed stake used for impalement of human beings.
This was an ancient form of punishment used to
publicly display the bodies of executed criminals.”
-The New International Dictionary
of New Testament Theology
“‘In the Egyptian churches, the cross was a pagan symbol of life
borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner’.”
-The Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273
Most scholars now agree that the cross,
as an artistic reference
to the passion event(Jesus’ death),
cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine.”
—Ante Pacem—
Archaeological Evidence of Church Life
Before Constantine (1985),
by Professor Graydon F. Snyder, page 27
“It may come as a shock to know
that there is no word such as ‘cross’
in the Greek of the New Testament.
The word translated ‘cross’
is always the Greek word [stau·ros’]
meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’
The cross was not originally a Christian symbol;
it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”
-Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum
Simon. I have read your comment and remember most of it from the watchtower. But were you aware that the society now says, whether it was a cross or a stake it doen’t matter. They are acceptimg that the Romans might likely have impaled on a upright tree with a crossbeam hoisted up with an attached victim with outstretched arms. Just a thought an an observation on the new accepted light from the society. Take care and thanks for the additional information that I had not seen. In Christ. Jacqueline
please some one respond i love the interaction
cross or stauros – it is not important for the “worshiper with spirit”
why ?
because cross or stauros is surely NOT an object of veneration
But at that moment -of Jesus death- something absolutely important happened – and that is important :
Jesus overtook this world and its god – Satan, God’s opposer !
Colossians 2
15. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
…triumphing over them by the cross…
this statement is what truly matter for God and His purposes , not the shape of that piece of wood…
rus virgil
good point its just that i searching for truth i’ve been tuaght strange things since childhood . this drives me and compells me to get the answer to the excuse ive been given all my life. if being different means god’s favor i welcome it. i just think the things i was asked to hold the traditions of man so to speak lest i lose favor or acceptance love so to speak. these firmly engraned things missed the point which you clearly point out . meanwhile i needed an answer or reply to the one that is taunting me. love ya
heckle&jeckle, I understand, you had to research it for yourself. It was made to be such a major doctrinal issue and as rus virgil said we missed the whole point
We had a nice Bible study today (Sunday). Must have been 9 or more at the first meeting, many more at the second one. It is the same sixscreen number but we do deep discussions using the bible only. Nice hearing from you again. Peace Jacqueline
oh wonderful i watched some older six screens today did my reading and watched some tele guys in am but i gotta get on with you all it sounds really spiritual. thank you so much.
put a period between area and they. and 600ish bc to 300ish bc
I’ve looked up quite a bit on stauros. Well very interesting.Look it 90% was a cross.JW’s talk about greek but the greek of 600ish to maybe as late 300ish may have explicitly referred to single stake. But koine greek from 1st century aka jesus time could mean many types of roman crosses.In there defence there are a 2 scholars from the 1800s that started this single stake thing, i think rutherford was looking to make extreme statements . he liked being different and wanted his followers to do the same . there are many 1st and 2nd century historical historical writers and accidental writers basically stating that crosses wrer used were common anecdotely stating followers were associated with the cross it had been described as tau the greek letter .well i dont no some want to or like to contradict things just to be right . the more they smear the other side the more they’re right . also it is a good trick i mean its a common theme blame the catholic church one more thing they borrowed from paganism. i think with that thinking you could find paganism getting up in the morning or walking down the street or across the street.really i love them but idk .the last thing i want is to say this as i said i would have been happy to stay in the “matrix”.its like the pharisees they were very devout but so dogmatic they wouldnt listen to jesus, or anyone else. to me it comes across that way the pharisee were very meen to gentiles in the area they added to the law.wow!jesus message was simple his load was lite. back to the point obviously a christian would not want to worship a cross.my choice would be not to bow to something or anything especially an image drawn or manufactured by humans or that may be found of nature or by natural means representing a likeness ; so as to give the impression of worship to it specically nor would i pray to the said above item or items ; but if i should hypothetically be in a situation that i felt the need to pray and it might happen that by accident or negligence or ignorance i should appear to be pray or adoring or venerate said item or items i do apologise and beg pardon for my error or misleading behavior. amen .love ya
Hi heckle&jeckle,
Busy day for most on weekends. But I must say, rutherford wanted to be different. That is how the ruling class prove they are truth by being contrary to every one else. Good research on the cross. Jacqueline
Not Br. Rutherford want something different, he do not wanted to be associated with a “cross” symbol what is associated with “churches”. He was right !
Jan Hoekstra, how are you? Are you aware that there are JW.org lapel pins, buttons, that it is on backdrops at conventions like the Oscars backdrop?. Are you aware It is displayed prominently on the building as you hit the massive highway in New York city? Are you aware they are holding up signs at convention with JW.org. Are you aware JW.org was at each corner of the stage platform at the conventions this summer. Are you aware they danced to the Music Footloose on the platform of the Kingdom Hall and sisters danced to worldly music on the platform in Detroit? Are you aware of the JW.org business cards. Facebook profile photo for Jehovah witnesses?
If we take up our cross we can gain the crown of life. Jan you are from condit-energy.org and probably aren’t aware of what is going on within the JW.org organization.
Is JW.org a Logo? Is the cross and crown (which is mentioned in the bible) also a logo?
Let’s be reasonable here, JW.org can be said to be an idol now. You need to google some of the pictures for the JW.org merchandise before you throw that stone.
No one within the Bible Student even mention the cross and crown. But the witnesses are acting as if the JW.org merchandise is a golden calf.
Here in the US they are acting as if the JW.org TV which is fancy like the 700 Club and the JW.org logo is like money falling from heaven. This is a topic I think you should think about Jan personally.
Go here to see just a few examples: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jw.org+logo
Hi Jan, here is some info I researched a while ago on the ‘stake’ & ‘cross’ subject:
Roman Catholic writer and archaeologist Adolphe-Napoleon Didron stated: “The cross has received a worship similar, if not equal, to that of Christ; this sacred wood is adored almost equally with God Himself.”
The Watchtower had the cross as one of its religious symbols for almost 40 years!
Quotes from the Harp of God…
“And Pilate, more righteous than the clerics, posted
over his cross the sign: ‘Jesus of Nazareth, the King
of the Jews.’” (page 136)
“When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary…………”
(page 140)
“The ransom price was provided at the cross. The
cross of Christ is the great pivotal truth of the divine
arrangement, from which radiates the hopes of men.”
(page 142)
“The cross of Christ is the greatest pivotal truth of
the divine arrangement, from which radiate the
hopes of men.” The Harp of God (Rutherford) p.141
Most Jehovah’s Witnesses are unaware that The Cross and Crown logo (upper left hand corner of this 1931 WATCHTOWER) was the official logo for 40 years of the Watchtower magazine. Removed October 1931.
So why do Jehovah’s witnesses believe the cross of Christ to be a stake?
and what evidence is there to support the Christian view of the cross?
The word stau·ros′ does indeed refer to an upright stake or pole, the word is used in the New Testament
Greek . The word stau·ros′ is correctly interpreted be the WT as an upright stake or pole
However by New Testament times the stau·ros′ (stake,) with a patibulum or furca, (cross bar) had begun to be used.
This stake with a cross bar was still referred to simply as a stake, (as a stake made up part of the cross,)
Hence the original Greek writings using this word.
As shown below ‘stauros’ can be interpreted to mean several things including a ‘cross beam, or a cross. What is important then is that those doing the interpreting are taking into account the Historical information available, and ask questions such as, was a cross used by Romans for the purpose of execution at the time of Christ?
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says this about the Greek stauros:
Corresponding to the vb. (stauroo) which was more common, stauros can mean a stake which was sometimes pointed on which an executed criminal was publicly displayed in shame as a further punishment. It could be used for hanging (so probably Diod. Sic., 2, 18, 2), impaling, or strangulation. stauros could also be an instrument of torture, perhaps in the sense of the Lat. patibulum, a crossbeam laid on the shoulders. Finally it could be an instrument of execution in the form of a vertical stake and a crossbeam of the same length forming a cross in the narrower sense of the term. It took the form either of a T (Lat. crux commissa) or of a + (crux immissa). (Vol. 1, page 391)
Golgotha
There is some evidence that certain cities in the Roman Empire had places of execution set up outside the walls of the city. The Roman historian Tacitus records that there was such a place in Rome on the Campus Esqulinus (Annals 2:32.2; 15:60.1). Golgotha, outside the walls of Jerusalem, also appears to have been such a set place of execution. At these places of execution would have been permanently located the upright beam of the cross (stipes) onto which the crossbeam piece which the condemned man carried would be attached.
John 19:17 (NIV)
17 Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull
Biblical Archaeological Review, January/February, 1988, pp. 48-49, as
quoted by Doug Harris in Awake to the Watchtower, pp. 309-310..
“At the end of the first century BC, the Romans adopted crucifixion as an official punishment for non-Romans for certain limited transgressions. Initially, it was employed not as a method of execution, but only of punishment. Moreover, only slaves convicted of certain crimes were punished by crucifixion. During this early period, a wooden beam known as a ‘furca’ or ‘patibulum’ was placed on the slave’s neck and bound his arms. The slave was then required to march through the neighbourhood proclaiming his offence.
This march was intended as an exipiation and humiliation. Later, the slave was also stripped and scourged. increasing both the punishment and the humiliation. Still later, instead of walking with the arms tied to the wooden beam, the slave was tied to a vertical stake…Following the beating, the horizontal beam was placed upon the condemned man’s shoulders, and he began the long, gruelling march to the execution site, usually outside the citywalls…When the procession arrived at the execution site, a vertical stake was fixed into the ground…If the victim was attached by nails, he was laid on the ground, with his shoulders on the cross-beam. His arms were held out and nailed to the two ends of the cross-beam, which was then raised and fixed on top of the vertical beam. The victim’s feet were then nailed down against this vertical stake…In order to prolong the agony, Roman executioners devised two instruments that would keep the victim alive on the cross for extended periods of time.
One known as the ‘sedile’, was a small seat attached to the front of the cross, about half way down. This device provided some support for the victim’s body and may explain the phrase used by the Romans, ‘to sit upon the cross’. Both Erenaeus and Justin Martyr describe the cross as having five extremities rather than four; the fifth was probably the ‘sedile’.”
Mark 15:21-24 (NIV)
The Crucifixion of Jesus
21 A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way
in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross. 22 They brought Jesus to the place called
Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). 23 Then they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but
he did not take it. 24 And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.
The accounts at , Luke 23:26-38, and John 19:1-22 all show that Jesus was forced to follow the practice of carrying the stauron to Golgotha., It was a Roman practice
Matthew 27:37 also supports the idea of a cross rather than a stake when it says;
“Above his head they had put the charge against him in writing: ‘THIS IS JESUS, KING OF THE
JEWS’ “.
In the depiction of Jesus being hung on a stake rather than a cross, The sign above Jesus’ ‘head’ as in this verse would need to be altered to ‘above his hands’ as this pose necessitates.
Writings of antiquity
By New Testament times, the Romans were using several different forms of the cross for crucifixion. The following texts from Plautus, Seneca, and Tacitus, writers from the third century BC to the second century
AD, contain the use of the word crux used in conjunction with the words patibulum and furca, (both meaning cross beam).
(The Latin dictionary by Lewis and Short states that the meaning of crux was “a tree, frame, or other wooden instruments of execution, on which criminals were impaled or hanged.)
1) Frateor, manus vobis do. Et post dabis sub furcis. Abi intro–in crucem. ” ‘I admit it, I hold up my
hands!’ ‘And later you will hold them up on a furca. Do go along to the crux’ ” (Persa, 295).
(2) Credo ego istoc extemplo tibi esse eundum actutum extra portam, dispessis manibus, patibulum quom habebis. “I suspect you’re doomed to die outside the gate, in that position: Hands spread out and nailed to the patibulum” (Miles Gloriosus, 359-360).
(3) O carnuficium cribum, quod credo fore, ita te forabunt patibulatum per vias stimulis carnufices, sihuc reveniat senex. “Oh, I bet the hangmen will have you looking like a human sieve, the way they’ll prod you full of holes as they run you down the streets with your arms on a patibulum, once the old
man gets back” (Mostellaria, 55-57).
(4) Ego dabo ei talentum, primus qui in crucem excucurrerit; sed ea lege, ut offigantur bis pedes, bis brachia. “I’ll give two hundred pounds to the first man to charge my crux and take it — on condition his legs and arms are double-nailed, that is” (Mostellaria, 359-360).
(5) Patibulum ferat per urbem, deinde adfigatur cruci. “Let him bear the patibulum through the city; then let him be nailed to the crux” (Carbonaria, fr. 2).
It is interesting that WT should say that no biblical evidence “even intimates” Jesus’ death was on the cross. Remember Thomas’ demand for proof concerning the resurrection of Jesus, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails” (John 20:25). Thomas, one of Jesus own disciples knew that Jesus had hung on the cross. He requested to see the print of the nails (plural). The torture stake theory only has one nail (singular). Even on this small detail, the Bible is specific.
Although the symbol of the cross appears in much pagan history prior to Jesus, the crucifixion cross has historical meaning due to the fact that crucifixion was a real, historical method of execution. As an instrument of death, the cross was detested by the Jews, so it became a stumbling block for them when considering Jesus. How could the Messiah be executed on a cross? After all, the Greek and Roman Empire executed thousands of criminals and captives in just this manner (Alexander the Great executed two thousand Tyrian captives in this way, after the fall of the city).
This form of punishment was usually reserved for such crimes as treason, desertion, robbery, piracy, assassination, and other such crimes. It continued in the Roman empire until the day of Constantine, when it was abolished as an insult to Christianity.
1 Corinthians 1:23 (NIV)
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles
I’m doing great Jacqueline! Happy new year to you too!
I’m glad you believe in the Holy Spirit. It is refreshing to ‘hear’ that on this website. He is the teacher, and apart from him there is no worship.
I don’t hate the WBTS people. I had a friend, whom I love, and his partner stop over today. They are JW’s, and very cool dudes as well. The way they interpret every piece of scripture is simply this; whatever the WBTS prints out, that is the only truth.
I asked if we could pray before we studied (debated), and they were hesitant. They said they would pray, but I gently yet firmly said that we were in my home and I would be the one praying. I do honor and worship the Holy Spirit because I do believe he is God.
My point is, what are they afraid of? Many apostles in Acts call on the Holy Spirit for filling and guidance.
Its just very weird, and I feel that if I’ve heard one Jw, I’ve heard them all. Some go into Greek grammar and some don’t. That’s about the only difference in regards to their doctrinal beliefs. I don’t mean to group them all together as being the same, I’m simply referring to how they present their gospel. My Gospel is different, it comes from 1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Its all about Christ! And that is from the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost.
Happy New Year
Alex,
I need to testify for a moment here. I am on the 2nd day of the Chicago Bible Student Convention and not one governing body reference. I might as well be in heaven. It is so refreshing to be among loving unpretentious people.
Men that use their brain, when giving a discourse. Going there knowing I don’t have to check my brain at the door.
Also we are talking directly in Bethel now on a phone hook up, and learning a lot of things from someone up there. Things are not looking good up there.
I look forward to my last day of the convention.
Have you heard from Joey?
I once read in a WBTS publication; (I’m paraphrasing now), that some of the JW’s have decided that the bible is enough without the publications, and they have turned backed to heretical beliefs because of this disobeddiance.
So in other words, if you just read the bible without publications and specific doctrine from denominations: JW’s, southern baptist, methodist, ect; you will go back to believing sound doctrine deemed herectical by WBTS.
Everytime we pick up the bible friends it is a sword piercing our hearts. The Holy Spirit comes knocking and if you let him in, as Jesus said, the Father & Son come and make their home with you. If you don’t let him in, and instead trust in deceptive man made doctrine, well friends, the bible tells you what will happen on that day.
I agree with what you all say about idols, no doubt it is correct.
I don’t worship by my cross, I worship in my Spirit, with the holy Spirit. My cross isn’t worshipped in my home, Jesus is.
Tyson2011, you asked how I knew that the WBTS isn’t as much of an authority as the bible; because the bible says so.
The bible is the Word of God, not WBTS or any other publication.
I wonder how many people would arrive at their conclusions about the Christian Church being wrong in our doctrine if they never would have read WBTS publications, but just read the Word. Just an observation
Hi Alex, How are you this NewYear?
WTBTS is a book publishing company, there isn’t anything wrong with owning your own PC to cut cost. But to put out your viewpoint and enforce the views presented in them is wrong.How does the society enforce? They threaten you with apostasy which carries a DF. Many of the old church Fathers, Tyndale etc. hardly had a copy of the Bible let alone a barrage of books. Yet they could read and understand the Bible. It’s called Holy Spirit, something the society doesn’t seem to hold High anymore. It takes humility to allow Holy Spirit in. I hope it is not true, but I think the GB has gone pass the point of being able to be humble. It is so sad, for they could have done a lot to help lead persons to Christ with their ill gotten money. This actually answers Tyson2011, but I just wanted to say hello to you. Oh, BTW, I keep abig Bible from my deceased mommy. Sometimes I take it out and read notes writtten in her handwriting, I don’t worship it. I know you don’t worship the cross Alex. Take care.
Your sister in Christ Jacqueline
The question is, what makes something an idol? ANYTHING that’s not SPIRIT , anything including EGO ! Joanna , you say Jehovah , I use YAHweh , You say Paul , I use Saul . You say & correctly so ” sake of the conscience.” But to whom was it directed ?
Those of us trying to teach often forget , the GIFT , Spirit is the only teacher . Second error , attempting to teach , & not even straping on per 70 AD Hebrew moccasins . Third gross mistake , reading the entire 66 Books of Scripture as mail addressed directly to one’s SELF , thinking with egotism , private interpretation .
I’ll be the first to point-out , this one is not the sharpest pencil in the box , certainly not the best , but , barely educated . But I read & understand English well enough to certify simple stuff like , “THE” stake not three crosses , hand on hand , again one stake . Matt.24:3 ” a side ” or “PRIVATELY” , to know ALL Matt. chapters 24 & 25 , was one lifetime long ! The “second coming” Heb.9:27-28 ” A SECOND TIME “. Matt.3:15 , if The Author of Life , obtained GRACE this way , maybe Acts is truly the GATE for the sheep , “GOD” knows every person written to or / and about , ran white-line through that Acts 2:38-39 DOOR ! Question , is or is-not ACTS CHAPTER TWO , ” That , what WAS delivered in the BEGINNING “? ” no need the lay foundation for again “? , Revelation is addressed TO THE SEVEN ASSEMBLES IN ASIA , not any-other and a very nice promise to those who can’t read or understand English , Rev.22:18-19 , not all Scripture , Just Revelation .
Dumb old me , I’m only able to see “one torture stake ” , dumber yet , where are those other TWO PERSONS that makes up a “trinity” mystery “GODHEAD ” other words not in Scripture but invented as , the word rapture .
Could YAHshua’s , ABBA YAHweh’s Messiahs words be lies when He said ” I make ALL things NEW ? Flesh profits not , but Spirit ONLY ? You must be born again ? I will be in your HEARTS & MINDS ?
Dumb old me , if , as I reason the above true , would make ” the mark ” Spiritual & as invisible as the mark of “hall-monitor” or Supreme Court Judge on a naked person , just as “called-out” or “saved by Grace” the same .
Sister Joanna , I concur with what you say , with the exception of the phallic symbol part , all US having tasted the heavenly fruit this should be a NO-brain’er .
AlluaYAH
The question is, what makes something an idol? It’s anything that draws us away from the true God, Jehovah. The Apostle Paul addresses this very question in 1 Corinthians 10 (this whole chapter clearly shows the essence of the question), as to whether to eat meat sacrificed to idols. He clearly states that the idol is nothing. The reason not to eat meat sacrificed to idols is that the nations were sacrificing to demons instead of Jehovah. He also says in that very context that it is ok to eat meat that may have been sacrificed to idols, but not to ask if it was, for the sake of the conscience.
So, what he’s saying here is all things are lawful, but not all things build up (verse 23). And to bring that lesson to this context, if someone wants to wear a cross or any jewelry, if the purpose is to remind us of our savior, and the sacrifice his Father gave in giving His own Son, then that is not wrong. However, if it stumbles our brother, it is better not to wear it. (1 Corinthians 8:13)
It all comes down to love for our brethren, and especially for our Heavenly Father. Whatever we do, whether we eat or drink, whether we wear a cross, or anything else, it should be for the glory of Jehovah. (1 Corinthians 10:31)
🙂