On Nov 5, former JWs will talk. Part of their discussion will include the question: Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?. Find out more about this Nov 5 Webcast and how you can participate here.
Why do Bible Students use the symbol of the cross and crown? Would displaying a cross and crown on an elder’s podium be considered idolatry? What about wearing a cross and crown pin? In any case, was Jesus really crucified on a cross—or was it a stake? Wasn’t the cross a shameful pagan Roman symbol? Hasn’t the apostate Christian Church used the cross as in object of worship—kissing it, praying before it, etc. All fair questions. Read more hear in the article, Did Jesus Die on a Cross or a Torture Stake?
If a Christian is “faithful till death” carrying his Cross, he will receive a “crown” of immortal life (Revelation 2:10). This scripture is the basis of the Bible Student Logo of the Cross & Crown, also depicted on the cover of the Watchtower Magazine (upper left corner) until discontinued by J.F. Rutherford.
now although Ive done the math and know the method I totaly agree with the statement what diferance does it make ? now here comes the best part a solider stuck jesus in the side and blood and water came out..this thing of blood and water is consistant with death by heart rupture( broken heart) the evidence supports that it was not the hanging on cross or pole that killed jesus but rather a ruptured aurorta this happens under extreme sorrow ,so the story of the broken heart is likly true
We need to settle the cross pole thingy with reasoning and Im just the one to end the push and shove forever now spread this word we all know jesus had to carry his beam . the beam was a single piece of wood if it was a cross it would have weighed 375 lbs to be tall enough and wide enough to nail him to and stick in the ground,golgoatha was 6 miles away from the place jesus had to carry it, jesus was beaten up badley and even a strong unbeaten man could not have draged such an object. now here is the scenerio the pole jesus was given was a rough timber the eqivelant of a modern 6 foot railroad tie weighing about 150 lbs jesus was taken up the hill and the beam he carried was used to nail his palms from the back out the front of his hands in a forced grasp over the beam this beam was hoisted up onto a second larger pole probobly permanantly mounted in the ground for roman execution this much larger pole had a foot rest with many nasty spikes on wich to stand the person being hanged in this fashion would pull himself up on the top bar as long as he could to avoid standing on 12 inch spikes every time the persons streanth gave out he would impale himself deeper and deeper into his legs from the bottom of his feet the contraption looked like a cross when the victem was standing on the nail plated foot rest dangle ing from the smaller shorter piece of wood ,to make maters worse the smaller pole was attached to the biger pole by a hole dead center the victum had a constant battle to balance the cross beam or be jabbed when he lost his balance, prince vlad, dracula loved the teater toter cross shaped torture pole he went one step further he made the foot spikes 5 feet long out of a single stake so the victum ended up with a stake driven by his own weight out of his mouth! so came to be both a cross and a pole in the legend of the crucifixtion.down to this day people argue what jesus carried up to cavary, the answer is straight pole..he was hung on a sraight pole by the cross beam.hence the storry of nailed to the cross. their is in existance quite a few of these execution devices and all are two seperate pieces of wood.. now as to wearing a cross or haveing one on the wall,Why would anybody want a reminder of torture and pain and death ? if you have to have a memorial jewlry then wear the rock with the spirt dove etched on it ,at least it symbolizes that jesus has risen.neither jehovah or jesus want to be reminded of the painfull death and neither should you. jesus has been raised as the exhalted king of all so to heck with images that portray his suffering ! satan truely enjoys seeing the cross it reminds him of his day in history, oh well now I hope people can quit with the debate and go on with the bussiness of jesus lives
Thanks for the info. ari, what’s important is that Jesus died for our sins not what instrument he died on.I don’t wear or use a stake or a cross in my worship of Jehovah, even if my conscious did allow me to wear a cross in some shape or form, I wouldn’t….for fear of stumbling my brother.
A couple of months someone did his doctorate thesis on this matter, and came out that no where is to be found it was a cross…
Personally I don’t really care that much… I never have… Also as a Jehovah’s witness I didn’t care… The fact is and was, Jesus died for all of us. How? It wasn’t pretty that’s for sure… But to say that you have to ban all crosses because they remind you of how Jesus died, I don’t agree… Why not? Because I believe that the bible makes clear that the way Jesus died had symbolism, we had to take up our own cross and follow him.
I really think that in the near future I will buy a little cross necklace, because it has a very symbolic meaning for me.
I would be curious to read that dissertation.
My own research tended to indicate otherwise. There is an excellent essay on the subject of crucifixion here:
http://www.joezias.com/CrucifixionAntiquity.html
Mr. Zias documents his sources. You’re point about the importance is well taken and I won’t dispute it Zenodotus. since the question is of importance to many of the JWs who visit here I just simply point out the evidence and resources on the subject.
The word cross is a feminine noun… The words torture stake put together is masculine. The Bible uses a feminine noun in the Greek.
Also, in John 20:25 “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails”… The word nails is plural and not singular. Which you would expect it to be if Jesus had been crucified on a stake with one nail though both His hands.
Small point but interesting.
Martin,when it’s all said and done,does it really matter what our Lord and master died on? It doesn’t matter to me as long as the instrument of his death is not used in worship.
Martin thanks for commenting. Most religions just talk about Jesus death on the cross or a tree with no fanfare. The witnesses built the religion around this issue that no one can prove. They changed the Bible to say stake, all literature has this as an issue. It is a major doctrine. So to them it matters quite a bit and one can be looked down on if they say cross and I am putting it mildly to say looked down upon. It is more like a judicial committee matter to say in meeting Jesus died on a cross. This would fall under “Brazen Conduct” in the new flock book.
Historically speaking,
I think the doctrine was adopted as part of a general policy to be different. I’m sure both Rutherford and Franz, who there is some evidence out there was ghost writing for Rutherford about that time, noticed the entry in Vine’s expository dictionary on the subject. That entry is still controversial today. Franz’s academic training centered around “classical” Latin and Greek. I really think he was too influenced by the Attic dialect from which Koine came as he always seemed to look to the Classical meanings of towards above what was emerging first. But that is my personal opinion.
In another forum i wrote a rebutal to the resident Witness apologist when he quoted the Society’s quote of Parson:
http://www.biblestudents.net/forum/index.php?topic=49.msg478#msg478
There are other discussions on the subject online, but i don’t have the time to link them.
Dupin as sad as it is to admit, it seems these men were just trying to prove they were right by being different and opposing every day things to get the religion noticed. I think the scheme might have Satanic leanings, because they hate Jesus so much.
Cross is masculine in greek…STAYROS (ὁ σταυρὸς)and thats how it is used.
Hello in all truth I have not viewed all posts re cross or torture stake.But our pastor did point out,using the Scriptures,the direction of the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat which represented our dear Lords ransom sacrifice. ( + )
Yours in Christ, phil
Thank you Malcon! God Bless!
If I may, I would just like to add this point for arguments sake that there is a good chance that Jesus may have died on a cross.
The reason I say this is because crucifixion was a distinctly Roman form of execution, as opposed to impalement.
If one recalls how the 1ST century Christians were martyred, that is, they were crucified and set alight on crosses and not on stakes, by the Romans. Also, those of the Jews who attempted to escape Jerusalem in 70 C.E when it was under siege, those who were captured by the Romans were once again crucified on crosses and not impaled to stakes.
So, it would seem fairly reasonable then to assume that Jesus who was also killed by ‘the Romans’, died on a cross and not on a stake.
Malcoln, I think he did too die on a cross as all Roman crucifixtions as you say.
I feel Jesus was crucfied on a stake,instead of a cross,however,unlike my JW brethren still bound to the Watchtower.The most important matter is not the instrument of crucifixtion,but the ransom Jesus paid for ALL man kind in due time!
I agree with you, the instrument of death was not important at all. It was the fact that they killed him on thrumped up charges. But his dying without blemish, faithful, to this cause, that he was sent, was for our good. He died as a ransom for all of Adams offspring, whether by on a cross or beheading or strangulation. The scriptures said it would be by lifting him up, we do know he was up in the air when he died. But still it is the death faithfully that mattered. And as he said, “It is Done”. And we have hope now. The question of the instrument is yet another smoke screen to clog us up. Just my opinion.
Greetings Jacqueline , dearest believer , read it or not it’s not mandatory , just a load of truth . AlluaYAH .
Greetings Jacqueline , I said;what does Scriptural truth have to do with what ” society now says “?In reply to your;society now says, whether it was a cross or a stake it doen’t matter.
Dear fellow believer , open your Strong’s & word search ALL words TRUTH , use all your versions making sure at least one is Sacred Names & a Literal Translation , the more of each the faster clearly truth will become , Vine’s is a must , once starting DON’T quit . Very soon after you start , the paramount reality of truth will put you on your knees , before or after word search LOVE . TRUTH , LOVE or LOVE OF THE TRUTH our Anointed & how to get that way is all there is ! The remainder is filler , good reading but filler never the less ! Sadly , goat fodder , fuel for conjecture .
In the early 50’s Sunday School I recognized ; came near to him by himself,rendered PRIVATELY , lead YOU astray , Verily I say to YOU, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass. Matthew chapter 24 & 25 as one discourse , expounding this new found enlightenment to my SS teacher received a prompt scalding in front of and for the benefit of my peers in ridicule . Bless her heart , she could not answer Scripture the Pastor’s oldest daughter my first heart-throb . So , what society now says & $20 may get you a nice latte & nothing else .
34 And Peter having opened his mouth, said, `Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons,
35 but in every nation he who is fearing Him, and is working righteousness, is acceptable to Him;
Peter the same Saint that said
25 the baptism of John, whence was it? — from heaven, or from men?’ And they were reasoning with themselves, saying, `If we should say, From heaven; he will say to us, Wherefore, then, did ye not believe him?
37 And having heard, they were pricked to the heart; they say also to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, `What shall we do, men, brethren?’
38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.’
40 Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, `Be saved from this perverse generation;’
41 then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added on that day, as it were, three thousand souls,
42 and they were continuing stedfastly in the teaching of the apostles, and the fellowship, and the breaking of the bread, and the prayers.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.
14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/Scriptures/index.htm
Hi Ronshua, Thanks for posting. I will go visit the websites you posted. In Christ, Jacqueline