INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Dear Jacqueline-You put me to great shame. To great shame! You don’t know me from Adam and yet you show so much concern for me. So much love. Its crazy?! I can’t believe it! I am overwhelmed!
And Tulsigirl, Yes Tulsigirl who apologised to me with such graciousness and humility( when it was I who was at fault for overreacting, and not her).
What is going on here?! I don’t think I have ever met people like you before! Who are you? I mean, are you people really the Brothers & sisters of Jesus Christ?! Are you really the anointed ones?
You sound like me now, I couldn’t believe this either. BTW, I am from segregation in the deep South and I was raised a BS until 12yrs old, even being baptized. The organization could not penetrate segregation and the “:new truths” didn’t affect black brothers until the middle sixties. I listened to Martin Luther King just 3 ft away, The church and my family home is still in the historic district. So that is how I recognized them (BS) from the internet. But we were told they were dead. I am going to go over to the ask Jacqueline page and write part of the story I wanted to tell. I think it might help someone else. I won’t write the” part two” as these persons are still alive. I am going to reveal a part of myself in this but that’s okay.
You do not have to tell me anything in private Jacqueline, because you already have! By your patience and compassion you have told me much more than you could have told me in private. You have told me that you care?! That you actually CARE! And I am deeply moved by this! I truly am!
You see Jacqueline, after I made that angry comment towards Tulsigirl ( forgive me Tulsigirl), I was expecting you all to turn on me and turn on me ugly! For that has been my experience with Jehovah witnesses. They have always turned on me in a spiteful way when I have been outspoken about my views on suffering. Many of them have called me hurtful names, names like, Evil apostate! Satanist! Demoniac! A circuit overseer even scornfully told me that I was not worthy of the truth! These words have hurt me really badly and have stayed with me forever.
So naturally, I was preparing myself for your judgement and condemnation. But, to my dismay and joy, you have not reacted like that. This means so much to me! So much!
And something inside tells me that you are genuine.
Jacqueline you may truly well be what you say you are, one of the Brethren of the Christ!?
From my heart
Taylor
Taylor thank you so much for replying, I am crying, because I was going to print the story anyway and I simply can’t risk my sons reading it. But to help you I would go on an print it. Thank you for releasing me, I really appreciate it.
But I will tell you another story. I run a business where I employ therapists at events outside in tents and at huge Venues. One of my young men was so dependable, I paid him well, but I got a tour with some pretty big entertainers and didn’t have time to go after work for these poor young therapists. The young man called me on Monday (2008) and asked, ” do you have some work for me”? I said “I’m busy now I will call you back.” I was the stress manager to the Mayor and a very important man was running for president, and I was asked to join the team as stress manager. I was caught up with these important people. Also I had Circuit and District overseers coming to my place. (you get the picture). I didn’t call him back you see. He called me on Thursday and said Ms.___”Do you have some work for me, I really need it”. I am gifted with knowing when a person has a problem if I talk to them personnally, yet I heard distress and denied my calling, not intentionally, I was just caught up.I said ” I’ll call you back “. I forgot, although he seemed troubled. With an almost defeated attitude he asked, Ms. __ “you don’t have anything for me”? This young man was 6’2 of 3 mixed races, he was a beautiful person. On Saturday morning I woke up went outside and got my newspaper. TO MY HORROR! ON THE FRONT PAGE IT SAID, Young Man Takes His Life!! I dropped to the ground. I got a call from the police to come to my office, the officer needed to talk. You see, young people have this thing on the internet where they hang themselves and when they drop they suspend and look like an angel flying in death. When his mother opened the door she saw it, he knew she would open it. She called this officer and he wondered,how could this happen to such a beautiful person? Didn’t someone detect this before it happened.My phone number was the last one on his phone! YOU SCARED ME TO DEATH WHEN YOU SAID JUST FORGET ME! I said no Jehovah I won’t fail to help this time, I will tell him about someone I know that had his experience in my family. Only I know and this person was somebody and he was not too damaged, and if I had to tell you I would walk in your shoes with you and tell YOU what happenned to you and how to take the cards that are dealt you and play for the royal flush. Remember there are 66 cards in the deck, go for all the face cards and win.
I have been up against the CO and DO, the elders (some) are slaughtering God’s people. Taylor, that’s why the BS created this site.. The BS are peaceful people, they generally will not tackle or deal with controversy like this site. Br. Peter and Br. Kris had to go thru a lot of talking and praying to get the blessing of the Chicago Class. (You see everyone in the cong. is in on things, they vote on stuff). They saw so many of us coming, I was running on the coldest day of the year to find them, when I saw an advertisement for their convention. I thought, these were the original BS. I thought they were all dead, that is what we were told. They welcomed me with open arms although I kept pinching them to see if they were real, they should have locked me up. I was probably the happiest person at their convention that day. I had hit rock bottom with my elders, CO and DO and the headquarters. We were deadlocked on the pedophile issue. I have had open confrontations in front of the whole cong with CO and elders. They thought they were embarassing me, but holy spirit would put some powerful words in my mouth each time and I was a threat, for I feared them not. So I understand what you went thru. I was done, I needed to go. Jesus heard me, he hears prayers oh yes he does! I could tell stories of a young man pedophiled by a man that is still an elder and so much more, he was in the open. You hold your head up high, when the memories get bad go to Jesus, throw it on him and walk away and don’t deal with it. Jehovah said at Ps 55:2 to do this and when they get to much come talk to us because Gal 6:2 says ” Carry the burdens of one another”. There are enough shoulders to pass it around. There are others reading this site, who will no doubt feel free to chime in with words of encouragement. In Christian love, Jacqueline
PS. The young man’s girlfriend had left with the baby, because he had lost his job and I normally supplied him with work to help out. The funeral was violatile, they blamed it on the girlfriend. I don’t blame myself for this for this was an abuse victim I found out. And I spoke out to the family members, that if the girl had not taken the baby and fled we might have had 3 caskets here. This was a deep situation. I don’t blame myself for his death but I sensed there was something deep and I ignored it for the things of this world. I no longer tour with these entertainers. I have left that way of life behind.Words of comfort. 2Cor4:16-18 has words for not just those that will help Christ bring the truth to all but for all of us now. The whole chapter is a beauty.
Taylor – I was blown away and silenced when you shared the unspeakable horrors of prison. I have never experienced anything close to that. Also I can never understand as having experienced such tragedies, I hope I can try my best to be understanding. I would like to share with you an electronic book that has been of great encouragement and comfort to many Bible Students. Click here if you would like to read: Exceeding Great and Precious Promises. These are promises from Jehovah that you and I can claim. I hope it is of some encouragement. Also, you might receive some encouragement listening to an audio talk discussing why God permits evil in the lives of his followers by clicking here:
Christian love and best wishes.
I really appreciate your kindness Jacqueline. Your heart is in the right place and I know you mean well, but please, just forget about me.
You won’t be able to help me. Nobody can help me! I’m to damaged! There is very little hope for me. To full of bitter hate towards God and just can’t escape these feelings. No way out. Nothing works, nothing helps. Its pretty much over.
Thanks for your concern
Taylor
Taylor
Taylor, THERE IS NO PAIN THAT HEAVEN CAN’T BEAR!!!!! Jesus cried out my Father my Father WHY HAVE YOU FARSAKEN ME? He had been beat all night and nailed to a cross, that was God’s son. Why didn’t he help his son. For you and for me!! If he had stepped in prematurely, all would be lost. Was he concerned? The earth shook and bodies popped out the graves and rolled down into the city. He caused a darkness for hours and the Temple curtains was rent in too! This God had lost his son and he could have stopped it. Like you, a dying man, Jesus, said Father do something ,please. But it was too early, not the right time. TRUST HIM Taylor.
Acts7:55 Stephen was being stoned to death. 55. “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of JESUS STANDING AT GOD’s RIGHT HAND.” That is why he permitted this wicked death to take place. Had he acted when Jesus wanted him to. The price would not have been paid. You,me and everyone that has ever lived could forget it! TRUST HIM. You say you are to damaged, We are the answer to your prayer! I noticed a problem when you first started writing. I know a Soul in pain when I see it. I said to Jehovah and Jesus let’s wait him out, something is eating at him. Don’t throw this back in God’s face, please Taylor. Get on your knees and just say God help me please. This has gone to far, this is more than you can bear.
Ps 55:22 “Throw your Burden on Jehovah”. And don’t take it back, Taylor. Give it to him and walk away from this burden. Any sin you committed to get you in the dark place that caused your pain is not your fault. It’s Adams fault. There is no big sin and little sin. Sin is sin. God isn’t taking credit for the rebellion of Satan and you are not going to blame yourself for sinning and getting yourself in a bad place.
I want to tell you something in private if the jail thing is about you or someone you know. If it is, Iwill give you proof that we are the answer to your prayer. Tell me yes or no. You are anonymous here. If I tell you something personal it will have to be through Administration and will not be printed but go straight to your email. And then you tell me what you think about Holy Spirit then! I can’t print my involvement in what I want to share with you because someone will be hurt if they stumble on this site and know who I am. It would be to painful. Also I am sure I have family looking at this site, they just won’t say anything to me. They think I don’t know.( tee-he). I will wait on your reply and you decide if I get your email to tell you a story of comfort of God’s love for you. And BTW. I won’t forget about you, In fact righteous ones will pray for you tonight and you know wha the Bible says about that: Prov. 15:29 “The prayer of the righteous ones he hears.” Jas 5:16: 1Th. 5:17. And you pray that our prayer are asking for the right thing. Taylor for we are in the dark.
Just forget it.
Taylor
Taylor – I imagine that whatever challenges you are experiences, you need relief, help and comfort from Jehovah now. You will be in our prayers as we hope for Jehovah to bring you the needed encouragement soon.
Taylor if you know someone that needs to talk a little without it being printed you may go to the “Ask Jacqueline” page and say it. (the page is moderated} We need to get to some core problems so we know what we are talking about. OK? Or you can go in contact admin. Your comments will not be printed. Or leave your email with admin. It will not be printed.
Have you ever been a witness? It is a Battle going on. Right now Adam’s offspring (who didn’t rebell, we inherited the tendency) ar trying out every government to see if they can fix it. Satan and the demons lost their children in the flood and have no mercy on Jesus now adopted children. So he wrecks havoc on mankind. 6000 yrs is a lot of time to let suffering go on in man years. But there is a bigger picture. God and the Devil are on different time imagines, never will he allow any rebellion again. He can say to anyone in the future, I gave man enough time to see if he could live without my intervention. It would have been a question if we didn’t get to get to the computer era wouldn’t it? Satan claims people like it the way he presents it, and some due but not all.
Like Job I would have wanted the exact children back not new ones, but Job learned by suffering and seeing what friends and the Devil is like. He will get those exacr one back in the Millenium. We allave to wait. I raised 2 girls that were raped every day by their big brother until I rescued them. They say they prayed for someone that wanted girls to get them. I did and I was their answer to their prayer. The welfar system botched it. They made it, now 45, one deceased in a tragic accident. If we talk about suffering there is a lot of material, but God promises he will make it right. It is a matter of faith in his time slot. He is looking ahead when you will see how powerful he is if someone trys to rebell again. He will meet it head-on right away. Our world was invaded by demonic hordes after the guardian Angel enticed them. I extend my hand in a private conversation about some of the things you mentioned to Tulsigirl. I have experience to a degree. I am going to go in pray for you now and the boys you describe that are in prisons. Rhese are the type of men that become John Wayne Gacy’s or Hitlers, they are created. Taylor, what ‘s wrong? We might can help.In Christian Love Jacqueline
Peter-You said in your last comment,
“So in the time of Paradise earth, mankind will finally understand why Jehovah had permitted evil and human suffering”.
I am sorry, but I becoming more confused by the hour!
The reason being Peter to quote you again on one of your previous statements where you said,
“It was better to allow ALL to experience evil and suffering so that when they come back to life in the kingdom, on Paradise earth, they will fully realize from experience the terrible consequences of sin and evil”.
So from this statement you have already given an explanation for the reason for suffering. So why have you now contradicted yourself? Do you follow me? Can you see the lack of logical consistency here?
You’ve also just said,
“Job’s comforters might then picture the many voices over the ages that have tried to explain why mankind is experiencing suffering and evil”
“THE MANY VOICES THAT HAVE TRIED TO EXPLAIN”!
Are you then Peter, just another voice? Is Pastor Russell just another voice? Are the Governing body of JW’s just another voice? And the many Bible student groups, are they too, all just another voice?!
Do you follow me now brother? I mean to say, who isn’t just another voice?!
So is there an explanation for suffering or not?
Which is it?
Thank you
heartfelt sincerity
Taylor
Taylor – Thank you for caring so much. You are a wonderful example of one who is determined to find answers on the Bible.
I apologize for being confusing, but I am struggling to find why you see a contradiction in what I said. Let me state it again differently if that will help:
For over 6,000 years, from Adam up until the time just before the earthly kingdom is established, mankind is experiencing firsthand the terrible results of sin, evil and suffering. These horrible experiences will be a great educational aid to them when they are awakened back to life on Paradise Earth. At that time people will be taught God’s ways of righteousness. They will see a remarkable contrast in the sin and evil they experienced previously and the love, truth and righteousness they are being taught in the earthly kingdom. Their previous experience with sin, evil and suffering will greatly benefit mankind to fully appreciate the wonderful contrast of the peaceable kingdom with all its love, righteousness and happiness. Without the horrible experiences for a short lifetime, Mankind could never fully appreciate the good experiences forever.
Mankind’s blindness will eventually be removed.
2 Cor 4:3 – “gospel is veiled…to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded”
Isa 25:6-8 – After the LORD will removes the veil that is spread over ALL nations, He will swallow up death
Isa 60:1-3, 10-12 – Although darkness now covers the earth, that will change when the mankind will come to Jerusalem to worship
People will learn righteousness in Paradise Earth
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
ALL People will Worship & Serve Jehovah on Paradise Earth
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
JOBS COMFORTERS
These many voices throughout history represented by Jobs comforters were representing the Bible. This is where we find the true answers – in the Bible. Whether we are just another voice or not is for you to decide. In any case, I believe that Jehovah has revealed the answer in his Word, the Bible. The only way to make sense of the Bible is to harmonize all the scriptures so that you can see the full and complete plan as it is well laid out in the Divine Plan of the Ages book. It’s like a puzzle. When you drop a thousand pieces on the table it looks like a chaotic mess. Yet when all the pieces are correctly connected together, a beautiful picture is revealed!
JOB LEARNED
Remeber what Job said: “3…Therefore I now see I have rashly uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. …5 I had heard of You only by the hearing of the ear, but now my spiritual eye sees You. 6 Therefore I loathe my words {and} abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6 AMP)
Job finally saw that Jehovah’s understanding was way beyond his human understanding and that Faith was needed to trust in Jehovah and wait for him to pour out his blessings at the right time. Job was then restored family and double the fortune he had before. We too must patiently wait in Faith for Jehovah to work out his plan. We must trust that he knows best. “Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning” Psalms.
Jacqueline thanks for your time and effort you put into sharing your view with me. I greatly appreciate it.
And as for being called by God….that’s very flattering… but I don’t think so.
Thanks again
God be with you
Taylor
I guess I was qualified to be called by God since Paul said in Corinthians, “not many noble, not many wise are called, but God called the foolish things of this earth.”
So Peter, what about the story of Job? Does that have any relevance here. The Jehovah witnesses teach that Satan wants to test the Integrity of anyone who claims to love God. You know the Rutherford court case scenario? Is this what you believe too? Or do you believe differently?
Thanks
Taylor
Taylor – Some have thought that the book of Job is a picture of how God gave mankind everything away in the Garden, how he allowed the adversary (Satan) to take it all away, and how it will be restored double to all mankind on Paradise earth. Job’s comforters might then picture the many voices over the ages that have tried to explain why mankind is experiencing suffering and evil. In the end, even Jobs misconceptions are cleared up and he finally understands Jehovah more fully.
“1 THEN JOB said to the Lord, 2 I know that You can do all things, and that no thought {or} purpose of Yours can be restrained {or} thwarted. 3 You said to me Who is this that darkens {and} obscures counsel by words without knowledge? Therefore I now see I have rashly uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 I had virtually said to You what You have said to me: Hear, I beseech You, and I will speak; I will demand of You, and You declare to me. 5 I had heard of You only by the hearing of the ear, but now my spiritual eye sees You. 6 Therefore I loathe my words {and} abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6 AMP)
So in the time of Paradise earth, mankind will finally understand why Jehovah had permitted evil and human suffering. You can find an interesting article by clicking here. Scroll up a little higher to the beginning of the article.
Thank you Jacqueline.
Yet, I still don’t understand what the devil and the demons are getting from this?
What exactly is there objective or stake in all of it?
That is to say, if they cannot permanently take people down with them at
Armageddon, then what is the point of what there doing?
What are they trying to achieve? What is their goal?
Sincerely
Taylor
Taylor – Jacqueline may have some comments for you, but in the meantime, I will comment as well.
I do not know of a direct scripture that explains why Satan and the demons would rebel if they know they will be destroyed. Is it possible that they think Jehovah can’t or won’t destroy them? I don’t know. Pharaoh’s heart was hardened every time Jehovah ended a plague. Jehovah’s mercy sometimes simply encourages the incorrigible to continue in their evil path.
We do know that Eph 6:12 tells us that “we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places. “ Jude 6 speaks of the “Angels that abandoned their proper abode [heaven] are reserved in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of great day. These demons apparently came to earth for power and control over humanity. Many of them were given positions of honor and power in Satan’s kingdom. For example, Dan 10:13-20 says that the “prince of Persia” withstood Gabriel. Also the “Prince of Greece” is mentioned. These are powerful demons in Satan’s command structure, designated to govern certain earthly nations. They have been in control for so long, that do they think Jehovah cannot stop them? I don’t know.
Rev 20:7 tells us that Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1,000 years and will lead an army of followers against the camp of the Saints. Is it possible to attain such an unrecoverable level of evil, that a demon would rather die than live in subjection to Jehovah?
Hebrews 1:6 tells us “When he again brings firstborn into the world (2nd advent of Jesus), let all the angels of God worship him.” Some demons are too wicked to ever be able to repent and worship Jesus. Yet Jesus did make an attempt to convince them to repent. 1 Pet 3:19 says that Jesus ”went and made proclamation to spirits now in prison.” Perhaps this was during the 40 days after his resurrection that he directly preached to them. Even Paul implied in 1 Cor 4:9 that we are a spectacle to the angels. In other words they are observing Jehovah’s dealings with those whom is calling and hopefully learning from this.
Taylor, I was preparing something else to say to you when I saw this comment, so I am going to combine a few thoughts, Okay? Angels can fly, but they abdicated to feel the love of being with a woman. A violation of Jehovah’s order. Their offspring were hybrid, mean (mental) and overly big. They were destroyed in the flood and Jesus did not die to redeem hybrids of angels. All of their children are lost, killed by God. They are mad! (perhaps? I don’t know.) Their rebellion squashed and offspring dead, no chance to take over a world and rule and live apart from their God assigned spiritual world. They like man obviously didn’t think they had it so good being able to fly and move quickly throughout creation. Satan influenced Eve or rather deceived her according to scripture but not Adam. He saw through it and no doubt wanted this female rather than maybe get another one. And even tried to blame God by the expression “The woman whom you gave me”.
So “Houston we have a problem”. Jehovah is letting it all play out in a way no doubt that he knows will give both parties, Man and the devil, the opportunity and time to see if they can work it out and live by their own rules. It is a Mess indeed! But, in his loving mercy God saw that one man made a decision for all so, about Christ 1Peter 1:20 says”`It is true that he was destined for this purpose before the world was founded” (partial quote Phillips). The greek word I believe here refers to “throwing down seed.” Having offspring, after the rebellion but before Cain was born. (Heb.11:11,Matt.24:21, Heb.9:26) This founding came about when Eve got here, not existing before her creation. So this is when Jesus was destined at the Great rebellion. It is true God has foreknowledge, but there is nothing in scripture that says he uses it all the time. We know he did when telling of the great struggle that would occur when sentencing the Devil. I personnally would like to feel Jehovah let it happen (the rebellion) and didn’t create knowing of this mess. He could have, but I have a problem with harmonizing this with what I see in scripture. (This is my personal, heart feeling about God and for me I have to hold on to that.) The rebellion happened and he stepped in with mercy for us, Adam’s offspring. I don’t believe the Bible says exactly what he has in store for the demons, (in addition to Gehenna) as they are his sons and the Bible is about restoration of man. These demons invaded and tried to take over a world, the other Angels will see, that they can be destroyed! I think there is a lot he will do that we are not told about in 66 books but it is enough for us to have faith and above all hope.!Cor.2:9)
I woke us this morning and saw your heart felt comment. It struck my heart! You sound like me when I knew I was being called by God. I don’t know about these things, but I encourage you to embrace it and let the spirit lead you. You might find as I did that something happened. I can understand the Bible, by reading it after continual prayer as I read. It is like my eyes are wide open. I never could understand without checking the literature of my then religion, or listening to what others said. I listen and learn now from others and the Study in the scriptures are something unreal. But I think now! When I search the scriptures, I have help finding and formulating an answer to any that ask of me (holy spirirt). I encourage you to go on this journey and do not fight the spirit if you are being called by God. In Christian Love Jacqueline.
So following your logic if I have got this right, it tells me that if one survives Armageddon or one dies at Armageddon its the same thing?
What your really saying is that it does not matter whether you live or die, at Armageddon? You will be resurrected. So, basically, you can’t lose! Everyone’s a winner!? Am I right?
More on this later when I have time. But yes you are right. Jesus died a Ransom for ALL. So everyone gets ONE FULL opportunity for obedience and everlasting life. However, everyone will bring back with them the character they developed. The more degraded one is, the harder it will be for them to repent and follow Jehovah in his kingdom. Also, I beleive that the wicked will need to make amends for their wicked acts. There will be disciplinary consequences and responsibilites for the damage the wicked did. However they will have the opportunity for everlasting life and happiness once they have learned their lesson and corrected the damage they caused.
Hi Anonymous, I am reading your comments but thought I would speak briefly on this one. Everyone will be given a chance in the Millenium. None of Adam’s offspring ever had a chance they came out of the womb dying. Since Armageddon is not judgement day any that die has to come back and learn the real truth and many will respond, many won’t. You,I and others will recognie what is happenning and that will give us an edge. Also the conversion of mankind will begin and we can help because of our experiences and that it happened just so. I will continue to read your comments before I reply. Take Care Br. Anonymous
Effectively, what you are saying is that the 144,000 and the great crowd will all be going to heaven. And those who are destroyed at Armageddon will all be resurrected to the earth for the thousand year judgement.
Just one question regarding the survivors of Armageddon. Will they be going to heaven or will they live on the earth?
Also, finally, what does Satan get out of this?
I mean to say why is he trying so hard to corrupt, deceive and ruin people if they will all be coming back after they are killed at Armageddon?
What will he have accomplished?
It would literally undermine and render all his evil efforts to draw men away from God for the past 6,000 years as a complete waste of time.
What are your thoughts on this? I am quite confused.
Thanks