INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Hi Jeeff;
We do agree on the heaven and earth being wonderful. Those in heaven ruling as kings and priests with Jesus. Of coarse Jehoh is the God-King over the 144,001. Spirit creatures. 1 Pe 3:18
Now as to me not reading your post, could you explain how I would know you did not answer my two questions if I didn’t read your post.
As to not understanding your post, you put down chapter and verses. Alot of ground to cover. It appears you have one question and I am not quite sure what it is. Don’t have holy spirit before or after.
Tried showing you from two accounts.
When you questioned,they won’t have to wait for Paradise. AND, the ones that did not come up to Jehovah’s temple before the attack. They don’t picture those who survive Armageddon.
Read that whole paragraph. They are all those the ransom applies to who are dead and get resurrected from the memorial tombs.
You are trying to place that group before Armageddon. How many groups do you think I touched on?
1. The anointed living on the earth.
2. The other sheep living on the earth.
3. Those who attack Jerusalem, but can only do so at the earthly worshippers. Because Jesus and about 134,000 have been raised to heavenly life and they can’t get at them.
4. The reserrected ones from the memorial tombs.
5. Those in tombs not remembered.
6. The God-King.
7. Jesus Christ the husband of the bride.
Now if you don’t see where they fit I can understand why you don’t think it was answered.
Hi Max,
I have a Bible study to attend in a few minutes, but wanted to say that I am glad that you attempted to clarify your comment to Jacqueline and am sorry that you offended Tulisgirl.
I would ask a question about what you said.
In the contexts we’ve been discussing, it appears from the context that the Israel there (whether literal or symbolic) is without the Spirit and unbelieving before Armageddon.
Your comment was, “Don’t have holy spirit before or after.”
Do you not believe the spirit will be poured out on all flesh AFTER armageddon as these passages state?
Now…on a personal note. My wife is from Romania. I saw elsewhere that you said you were talking to a Bible Student from another country. Are you from another country as well?
How could it be otherwise than that the spiritual Paradise will flouish with greater beauty and grandeur than ever before? All those of mankind for whom the Messiah died and whom he calls forth from the memorial tombs of the dead will have to bring themselves into harmony with that spiritual Paradise. John 5:28,29. They will have to put Jehovah’s worship first in their lives. They will have to accept the Bible truth and to cultivate the fruits of God’s holy spirit. Gal 5:22,23. If they really desire to in life eternal in the Paradise earth, they will have to come up to the worship of the heavenly Theocrat, the God-King at his spiritual temple. By doing so, they will enter into boundless joy, never to fade. This divine requirement for such resurrected ones is spoken of in Zechariah’s closing sentences. Those of whom he speaks did not come up to Jehovah’s temple before Jerusalem was attacked. So they do not picture survivors of Har Mageddon. They appear on earth after it by resurrection.
Max.
The kingdom of heaven will be incredibly beautiful. So will the paradise on earth.
On this we can agree.
Do you recognize there is more than one group of unbelievers in this context?
1) Those that fight against Israel
2) Israel (regardless if it is literal or symbolic).
Now it would appear the context disagrees with your next statement. “Those of whom he speaks did not come up to Jehovah’s temple before Jerusalem was attacked. So they do not picture survivors of Har Mageddon.”
Zechariah 14:16 says clearly, “then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem.”
In this context, the nations that went against Jeruselem were those who fought against Israel in Armageddon.
“I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle…” Zechariah 14:2
I’ll say it again (hoping this is clear).
In these contexts, the literal or symbolic Israel is in unbelief and without the spirit until AFTER the battle of Armagedon.
Are you sure you want to identify yourself as THAT Israel in those contexts?
“….Their true, undefiled worship of Jehovah God, in order to flourish, will not have to wait until that restoration of Paradise is complete.”
Max. I think we’re on two different topics here somehow (again). I thought we were making good progress in trying to narrow the focus back. The questions about the passages I have been bringing up are about the time BEFORE Armageddon.
“Their enjoyment of a spiritual Paradise does not have to be put off until then.”
Max, try to picture this from the outside looking in. Don’t you see this discussion as an exercise in futility? You really haven’t answered any of the specific questions I’ve posed for days and days. You reply with multitudes of other passages completely unrelated to the topic as somehow it might evidence your position, and now you want me to answer new questions again without consideration of what has been discussed before?
Max, surely you can see from the contexts you quoted, and from the verses I quoted from your contexts, that the Israel in those contexts is both unbelieving and without the spirit until AFTER Armageddon?
It doesn’t really matter if you want to look at the Israel there as literal or symbolic. Any interepretation of Israel in those contexts would say that a symbolic or literal Israel is unbelieving and without spirit until AFTER Armageddon. Would you really want to identify yourself as an unbelieving group that doesn’t have the holy spirit?
And Max, you are doing the same thing again. You are going to great lengths attempting to prove something that we already agree on. If this is the case, I’m wondering if you are reading what is written to you or you are just trying to find a place where you have a voice.
A discussion should be two ways. Acknowledgement of what has been written and asked would be polite. This is pretty much a one sided attempt to demonstrate what you believe without consideration of the people who are trying to have a two way discussion or conversation.
Now I think you are a nice guy, and really trying to do what you think is the best to share what you believe. This is great and I encourage you to continue to do so, but please try to consider what has been said?
I point at this posting of yours as another example where you again attempt to prove something that we agree on, while thinking we disagree.
To me, this means that I am not making myself clear, that I must try to simplify the concepts so as to make them presentable and conversational. I would like to have a conversation with you, but I would like it to be two ways.
Max, what do I need to do in order to get you to answer some of the questions I’ve posed multiple times?
Now, regarding your attempts to prove (again) much of what we agree on….
Our interpretation of the end result of all of this is similar but different. You would agree that there will be a heavenly group and an earthly group in the kingdom of Christ, but we would disagree on who all will be there and will be given opportunity at salvation (…it doesn’t mean those who are given opportunity then will make it…just that they will have an opportunity). We would disagree on identifying the earthly group as the ‘great crowd’ of Revelation.
Finally (and again), regardless of one’s interpretation of Israel in the Joel/Ezekiel/Zechariah/Romans contexts that I have attempted to discuss with you, the end result is the same for any literal/symbolic approach…
…In these contexts, the literal or symbolic Israel is in unbelief and without the spirit until AFTER the battle of Armagedon.
Are you sure you want to identify yourself as THAT Israel in those contexts?
This good news is so good, please follow along. A spiritual Paradise is possible only along with the pure Scriptural worship of the one living and true God. The new system of things will start off immediately with that. Why should not the Great Theocrat, the God-King Jehovah, be adored and worshipped for his glorious victory in behalf of his universal sovereignty, which results also in the eternal liberation of his worshippers on earth from the Devil’s untheocratic organization? A precedent for this was set for the survivors of the “great tribulation” by the patriarch Noah. After the global flood had passed, and God told Noah and his family to leave the ark of preservation, Noah at once proceeded to offer up a sacrifice to the God of their salvation. This pleased Jehovah and won for Noah and his family the divine blessing. Ge 8:15-9: This fine example will be followed by the surviving anointed remnant and the “great crowd” of their fellow survivors. With Babylon the Great annihilated and with all her associated opposers of true worship destroyed, the anointed remnant and the “great crowd” will have greater reason than ever to put Jehovah’s worship first in the new order.
Hi Jeff;
I am assuming you mean verse 18 and 19. But I noticed you did not answer my two question. First was a simple yes or no.
Anyhow here goes 18 and 19. The restoration of the earthly Paradise will not be the work of a day, but the subects of the theocratic kingdom of the Christ will have to work in that behalf. But their true, undefiled worship of Jehovah God, in order to flourish, will not have to wait until that restoration of Paradise is complete. Their enjoyment of a spiritual Paradise does not have to be put off until then. 2 Cor 12:4
The enomies who were ruining the earth. Re 11:18. Down to the was with the “heavenly Jerusalem” had tried to ruin the spiritual Paradise of the annointed remnant in their God-given spiritual estate on earth. But they did not succeed in doing so, even with all their persecution and violent opposition.
The enimies did not succeed in driving the annointed remnant and the “great crowd” of Jehovah’s worshippers out of that spiritual Paradise. So the spiritual Paradise survived right along with them through the “great tribulation” and into Jehovah’s new system of things. Thereafter when the annointed remnant finish their earthly assignment, they will receive the fulfillment of the divine promise in Re 2:7. But the “great crowd” will remain on earth and inherit the terrestrial Paradise. Ps 37:11,37-40; Pr 2:21,22.
More to come!
Hi Jeff;
Having shared the Ez 38 and most of 39 with you, I wasn’t surprized you didn’t see the answer. But was surprized a couple of things didn’t connect with you. Your sense of humor is fine with me. Spice is the variety of life.
Couple of questions. Zec 14:17 “And it must occur that, as regards anyone that does not come up out of the families of the earth to Jerusalem to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, even upon them no pouring rain will occur.”
Do you think that all the nations must celebrate the literal feast of tabernacles or booths at an earthly Jerusalem annually?
What happens to any that don’t?
Max.
Glad ya like the humor. Check the next verses and tell me what you think.
As I stated earlier, because of the contexts of these passages (and many others), anyone who identifies themselves as Israel there identifies themselves as an unbelieving group without the holy spirit.
But glory be go God that because of his loving grace, he can offer the spirit and give an offer of salvation to those unbelieving ones, even after Armageddon.
Not trying to lie, but Ken’s post is a quick reply. Yes, I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Thank you for the invite Jacqulin;
But I will pass on it. My reasons are quite simple but supported by alot of Scriptures. So rather then list them all, it will try and be explained.
Independence, like atomic energy, it can be a good thing, or a bad thing. Why is that such a big and important word?
First one I think of is Adam and Eve. They saw what looked like a better arrangment then what was offered by God. You know the results.
But that did not make it impossible to be faultless with God. GE 6:9 But the results were, roads leading to destruction=many, saves few on a cramped ark. Did those many pray? One has to believe they did. And I believe 3 different things were discovered in the U.S.A. one being a little idol.
But their prayers went unanswered. What about after the flood? Well, we all know Abraham was faithful and didn’t have a religious organization.
But then Moses lead them out and a religious organization was established with the nation of Israel. Duet 5:3,4. But aliens were allowed to worship but not do as much around the temple area. So God was not impartial as to who could worship him. But keep in mind that was a small piece of land with the 12 tribes living there.
Note that God told them the following. Duet 13:18 and 18:13, the last one,”prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God.” Again the word faultless.
Was it a bad thing God did when he said, kill all the people there? Why did he do that? Interfaith! What does that cause? Independence! Here comes that word again. I can tell your starting to catch the drift.
Did those interfaith Israelites pray? Note what ISAIAH SAID,”And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Even though you make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed your very hands are filled.” 1:15
Compare Pr 28:9; Is 59:2; La 3:44; Micah 3:4
Does this make me happy? No, not really. What words of Jesus do think come to my mind? Oh, how I wanted to gather you like little chicks under my wings, but you did not want it.
And when Jesus said,”You must accordinly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Mt 5:48 We ask! How do you see independence in that?
What comes to your mind? Mine says,”the truth will set you free.” John 8:32 Independence from all false worship. It is awesome! So what am I doing here?
“My brothers, if anyone among you is misled from the truth and another turns him back.” James 5:19
To K,J,Ja,H,D,and all others, Iam going fishing and may not be back to day to resond to your posts, just have enough time to read them. But as the famous Arnold said,I,LL BEE BAACK!
Max, later I will switch to the Ask Jacqueline page so I can tell you exactly how it is, okay, my brother? You go fishing, we have snow now so I will get back to you later.
Max, are you a JW?
Jaqulin;
Going to work.To say you found Christ , sadly doesnt mean much. Don’t be offended, look at it from my standpoint. Mt 7:13,14,; 7:21-23 It is a sad fact.
Later
Max, I never really had him as a Saviour for over 60 yrs. I beckoned at every word of the watchtower org. But I drew the line at the GB. I began to reject them as soon as I found out they existed about 1995. Before that I was so involved in ministry and raising a family that they crept up on me. I know one personnally. It means a lot to me to have a relationship now with Christ to the glory of Jehovah. I know many, not all JW relegate Jesus second or equal to GB but I feel good now and happy. That is what you sort of expect from religion, not all that turmoil!!Wow! I am slowly recuperating from the abuse. Have a nice day at work Max. Enjoyed our conversations. We have snow coming so I am off to stock up.
Max I just got the chance to read the scripture support at the end of your last comment.
Matt.7:13,14 Wide indeed is the gate and spacious the road first enter by father Adam and mankind has continued to slip down in self gratification, pride, lust, sin, selfishness. To include all of the human race that is hurrying to the tomb down thru the centuries it must be broad and spacious to hold all humanity that walk in it in this present evil world.The way that seems right to the world will end in death. Not Gehenna but Sheol.
Vs 14:However in this present Gospel Age narrow is the way : The way of death by sacrifice with Christ. Not many will meet the high standards for heavenly life.
Strait is the gate and not many are finding it. If fact most of christianity have not realized that there is a Bride Class who gets on a narrow road for heavenly life.The grandeur of the life as one gets on this road and finally at death in this age be welcomed in the kingdom is worth the suffering.
Matt.7:21-23 Many have a form of Godly devotion but will not get into the kingdom of heaven. In fact only 144,000 will be of the bride. Judas was one of the twelve but was not acceptable because he didn’t submit to God’s plan and methods.Many religions boast in their many numbers. They deceive themselves and others respecting the source of their power and teachings. So Jesus will not invite them to be of the bride of Christ.
I do pray you are not right, that I am not worthy to be in God’s favor or with Jesus. I will still try and do all I can. I will never stop using my mind and thinking ability. I will not parrot without original thought of my own the words of a system, nor an organization. I will take my chances as a free person with Christ.
We had a great study tonight with twelve in attendance. Many marveled at how we asked questions gave our thoughts from just reasoning on the scriptures. I invite you to attend if you can one wednesday Max. You will see ex-witness elders and others thinking the scriptures thru like it was prior to 1966 when 1975 was announced. I think you will enjoy. Take Care Jacqueline.
I am totally offended, Max, by your comment to Jacqueline saying that “To say you found Christ , sadly doesnt mean much.” That is exactly one of the “MAJOR” reasons I have a problem with the Watchtower organization. Our Savior, Jesus Christ, has been relegated to a “second class” citizen status by the Watchtower Organization. You quote scripture which makes no sense to me. Matt 7:13-14 refers to the narrow gate. Then you use Matt 7:21-23 which says that not all who say, “Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven…” Are you saying that if we call Jesus “Lord” we will NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven? Have you and the Watchtower organization forgotten this verse,
John 1:10-13 New International Version (NIV)
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
AND
John 3:13-19 New International Version (NIV)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jehovah is the one and only true GOD. However, there is no salvation without belief in his son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. I could go on and on with scriptures. But the Watchtower Organization does NOT give proper respect and acknowledgement of Jesus. We are NOT to worship him, but we are to believe on him and remember the sacrifice he gave as a ransom for ALL MANKIND – NOT just Jehovah’s Witnesses!