INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
To Ken;
You really fell off the track didn’t you? Let me explain. Re 21:2,”I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Now ask yourself, who is the God up in heaven? Who make up the holy city which is like a bride? Who is the husband? I am going to believe you know all three answers.
The next verse,”Look! The tent of God is with mankind.” A tent and mankind. Who else has that tent? Re 7″15,”and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” This being the great crowd of survivors at the great trib.
Ps 15:1,”O Jehovah, who will be a guest in your tent?” Ps 37:9b,”But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will posses the earth.”
The heavens alone cannot contain Jehovah.
1 Pe 3:18 Jesus raised as a spirit.
Angels are spirits
144,000 with be raised as spirits.
All those will live in heaven.
The great crowd and all who are resurrected and remain faithful at the end of the 1000 years against Satan’s final try will live on earth.
Those who fail that time along with all that did the unforgiveable sin will go to where all bad spirits go. The second death, everlasting destruction.
Hello Max,
While I find your thoughts interesting, I am having trouble seeing the connection with the great crowd and the earth.
Don’t get me wrong as I definitely see a resurrection of a great crowd of people who will live on the earth, including the just and the unjust who will be given opportunity to learn from and worship Jehovah.
However, if we look at the context of Revelation 7, isn’t the great crowd in the same location that the 24 elders, four beasts, and angels are located? Revelation appears to put them all before the throne in Revelation?
Revelation 7:11 and all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped god,
In Revelation 20:12 those being judged are also described as being before the throne, but this throne appears to be the judgment seat of Christ and the Church, and not the throne of God.
12 and I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
This throne is the throne that Jesus and the Church are on and from which they are judging mankind for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4 — then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of god, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This is the promise to the believer of today…that ‘he who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my father on his throne.’ Revelation 3:21. Note that this verse also shows that there is more than one throne in Revelation.
In Revelation 14 the 144,000 are described as being before the throne of God in worship.
1 ¶ then I looked, and behold, the lamb was standing on mount Zion, and with him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his father written on their foreheads.
2 and I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 and they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
4 these are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. these are the ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes. these have been purchased from among men as first fruits to god and to the lamb.
I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you in advance for your time.
Jeff
To all;
Last night we studied the wonderful way some problems were handled in the early congregation. Vol VI p 229,”And to this all the apostles assented.” p 132 says,” Ps 133:1-3 His comment,”The membersof the church are the brethren whose spirit impels them to DWELL TOGETHER IN UNITY.
Why did I stop their? On another forum of Bible Students this day, the leaders mocked the Dawn Bile Students with a comment like,it is a slap in their face and if they had it their way, they would take so much out of Vol IV that there would only be about 100 pages left. Read Ps 133:1 and see if thats the kind of unity displayed. Could give many more things of that nature.
But judical comitte? Look at all the laws the nation of Israel had? What would you have done? Run away to Spain? Better yet what would you have told CTR when you read this?
Vol VI p 166 and 167,”the Apostle seems to point out some who, after tasting of the heavenly gift and the powers of the coming age, after being made partakers of the holy Spirit and being accepted as members of the elect class, fall away into sin- not through unavoidable weakness of the flesh and allurements of the Adversary, but BT WILLINGLY,KNOWINGLY ABANDONING RIGHTEOUSNESS. These , the Apostle assures us, it will be impossible to renew unto repentence.”
Down a little further,”Our Lord gave no ransom price for any wilful sin on our part,and,hence, if we sin willfully there is no remaining portion of the original merrit to apply on account of our willful trangressions. We should be obliged to pay the penalty of our willful sins.
“it would be a sin unto death–Second Death–and there would be nothing to look forward to with hope,-merely a fearful looking for of JUDGEMENT,SENTENCE,AND FIERY INDIGNATION WHICH WILL DEVOUR ALL OF God’s adversaries.”
Actually there is alot more which could be brought out. But one has to get over this belief two classes are okay. When people fall away thay always have what they think is a good reason.
They have only fooled themselves. We all have closets and the truth will come out. But CTR just passed judgement on those who commit the unforgivable sin. It is not all a love book. Sure you can do any thing you want and you can remain a Bible Student. But you can do the same thing in the holic church. I was raised in it I know.
……..”and end up in a judicial commitee”….Amen Jacqueline.. exactly my thoughts!
Thank you all;
Will get back to you tommorrow.
Max
Hi. Max how are you? I wanted to share a phrase I heard at a convention. “When everybody think alike, it is because generally only one person is thinking.” Jesus would often ask his disciples “What do do say”. He encouraged thinking and discussion. Even the men that were casting out Demons in his name, he said leave them alone, If they are with me they can’t be against me (paraphrase). So we are all brothers talking about JESUS. I am just so happy to be able to do it and not have to end up in a judicial committee.
The Samaritan woman was an example. The phoenician woman that reasoned about the little dogs eat from the crumbs dropped. One ex elder said this weekend, the JW hierarchy treats the BS like the Samaritans. I chuckled. Take Care my brother.
So Max, are you saying the great crowd are in heaven or on earth?
To all;
The origal poster used the Bible in Living English. Mine reads at Mt 14:14,”he saw a great crowd.” West Cott and Hort have “much crowd.” At Re 19:1 they have “great of crowd” Diaglott “of a crowd large” Re 19:1 Mt 14:14 “saw great a crowd”
BLE Mt 20″29,”a great crowd followed.” Mark 4:1and a very great crowd gathered to him.” Again at Mark 5:21 and others. Luke likewise 5:29 and a few more. John 6:2,5. Acts 6:7
But what about the account at Re 7:9? “Who are these that are clad in the white robes, and where did they come from? That was quite a question for John. Look at Johns answer.
I am a apostle I know everything. No that wasn’t it. “Said I to him,”Sir, you know.” Lets note some key things.
come from great distress
their robes and made them white
who sit on throne will spread his presence over them
no hunger or thirst
nor shall sun strike upon them
nor any heat
Lamb will take care of them
guide them to springs of water of life
God will wipe away tears from their eyes
I am sure everyone will agree that most of the chosen or elect ones have already died. So it isn’t talking about them. One reason why John did not know the answer.
John was aware that the elect have white robes. So does that make them the same? Re 6:11,”and they were each given a white robe.”Who was given? “the souls of those who had been slaughtered.”
The great crowd washes their robe in the blood of the Lamb and make them white, but the apostles and all other elect who died are given a white robe.Hmmm
If we read Re 16:15,”keeps awake and guards his clothes, that he may not go naked and have people see his indecent condition.” Do those found at Mt 7:21-23 have on white robes? Hopefully you all answered no. So those who died faithful in their worship of Jehovah and were of the elect and did the correct things, it was that in which they were not naked when they lived. Now that they have been resurrected they can sybolicaly begiven the road not that they are alive in heaven. But the ones John didn’t know are washing their robes now and till the great trib.
Spread His presence over them. Or spread his tent. Diaglott “pitches his tent over them.” Can we find in Re where Jehovah spreads his tent over the elect? Re 21:3″Look! The tent of God is whit mankind.” So we see the great crowd and all the resurrected Having Jehovah’s tent over them. The bride,144,000 are mentioned in verse two, so it is not talking about them under the tent. O f coarse this final thing takes place when Jesus hands over everything to the One who subjected all things to him, and shows his subjectection to that One. 1 Cor 15:27,28.And note only RE 7 AND 21 HAVE TEAR, BOTH WIPING OUT EVERY TEAR.
Well Jacqueline,I came up with something……remember what Bro. Russell said about the “ten foolish virgins” spoken of in Matt. 25: 1-12? If you go to Rev. 7:9(NWT)and read down to “crowd” ,you’ll see a little letter (v)right next to it,from there, go to the center 2nd column and you’ll find three scriptures listed next to the “v”,look up John 10:16 and find the word “sheep” next to it will be a little “k”, then go to the center 2nd column and find the little “k” and you’ll see three scriptures listed, look up Ps. 45:14, after reading this tell me what you think!
That’s what this is about thinking. There is an article maybe 2 from 20-40 yrs ago on this. You see we are getting a lot of JW brothers that have to have this reconciled from what they have been taught about the courtyard of the temple being on earth as his footstool. Hardly any having a reaching for the higher calling yet as one brother said “I will be there when it is over on earth with a great crowd to welcome dead. So immediately after armageddon will there be JW or should all have a heavenly hope? If not chosen for the bride class are they temple workers? There are scriptures talking about a great crowd in other instances. These are thoughts presented and I am playing it out here for others to chime in. BTW If anyone locates the huge articles explaining the earthly reason for the great crowd before I do, please post the year and month. I have all watchtower volumes from 1950’s onward. If I don’t answer right away, I have witnesses visiting me here at my home plus upward of 20 waiting to plow into me over the next 2 days. Let the fun begin.
I’m thinkin’ Jacqueline……I’ll post what I come up with
this is just my view on it. i think the 12 tribes in revelations 7 represent spiritual Israel and out of those tribes of spiritual Israel 144000 will be chosen to be the bride of Christ. what happens to the rest of the people in the tribes?? I’m not to sure but i would think they get a heavenly reward. the question I’m asking my self are the great crowd the rest of spiritual Israel or another group ??. as regards the great crowd being a heavenly or earthly group I’m split down the middle. they serve in the MOST HOLY and are before the throne of God. sounds like heaven to me. but then verse rev 7 v 17 seems very simpler to rev 21 v 3.