INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Bro Jeff the jws believe only the 144000 are the Israel of God. so the great crowd are the sheep mentioned in Matthew 25 who do good to Christ brothers. according to scripture the Israel of God is in heaven before the war of Armageddon. so it begs the question for a jw who are the Israel on earth. if the Israel of God are in heaven.
Thank you Humbleman for the clarification. I completely agree with you and believe this is also what the Scriptures teach. I thank you for this and would add a Scripture that would support your added thought.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25)
I would say that this passage states that in order for the spirit to be poured out the 144,000 must be in heaven. This of course still leaves the ‘earthly israel’ on earth during the battle of Armageddon. The Romans passage quoted above would state the same thing then that the Joel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and other passages I quoted earlier. . . . the Spirit will not be poured out on unbelieving Israel (as Romans says…”blindness”) until AFTER the 144,000 are in heaven and AFTER the battle of Armageddon.
If one wants to view Israel as a ‘spiritual israel’ or even an ‘earthly israel AND the 144,000), this passage would also leave them in unbelief and without the holy spirit until AFTER the battle of Armageddon is complete.
Thanks for the complement Max.
Dupin
Max the bible holds out a heavenly hope for Christians.
Ephesians 4
1I, therefore, the prisoner in [the] Lord, entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, 2with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, 3earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all
ROMANS 6
3Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
The bible says there is one calling one hope one baptism. so please tell me why Max the watchtower have created a new calling the earthly one and why have they invented a new baptism one that doesn’t exist in scripture. the baptism the jws receive is into a Origination. knowing what Christ did for us laying down his life how disgusting must a baptism were the origination is added to it look to God?? i can show you from scripture the hope of a christian. can you do the same.? or will you agree with the watchtower and simply say the scriptures are not for us but just for the 144000 ? one of us is being misled Max and deceived lets look at the scriptures to see who that is happening too. think carefully of Paul’s words
1 Corinthians 9
24Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it
the prize here is the crown of life being one of the 144000. tell me have you ever seen a race or marathon were only those who win the race take part? the race is made up of many many people all anointed but not all receive that prize .bro humbleman
P.s. I think that is awesome putting in the greek and learning it. But a couple of immportant things to consider.
1.The early Church was made up of those who had the heavenly calling. The Master said he was going away and that the enemy was planting weeds. A big apostasy was foretold. Somewhere about 3rd or 4 th century it took total control. Not that it didn’t already have both feet in. Who Jehovah used during that time was unknown. But Re 1:10 showed it was going to be future. Now John did not know who the great crowd was and CTR was not sure himself. But like the early church the gathering of the little flock was formost. 21 Years after CTR died it started coming clear who they were.
2. When it was so hard to make disciples back in the early church days, why was it so easy to convert people to Christendom? Well they brought in wrong beliefs and practices. And this bit of immortality, the soul don’t die and go to heaven sounded oh so good. So they came in by the droves. Millions. It was not that easy with the first church. Why not? Because you had to live a good life, and I mean good. You see nice people today, Christendom or nor religion is fine with them.
3. So since the Bible Students started, why so many small not united groups and hard to get someone in? Well CHRISTENDOM ALREADY HAS THEM. The attitude is they go to heaven so do you, belive what you want and so will I we all go to heaven.
4.But why now do the Bible students seem to be growing? Well a good number are former JW,s and that part of being a chosen one looks attractive. Remember Eve? Go ahead, you won’t die, you will be like God. The great deceiver is still doing his tricks. 1 Peter 5:8 But why are they going fast? The internet! Wholla! No door to door work!
5. The big problem! No unity! Ps 133:1 And no great crowd. Re 7:9 Mt when the end of system? Mt 24:4-26:2 21 the great trib. 36-39 like days of Noah. God’s people saved, the rest destoyed.
Jesus words not mine. Don’t let Satan fool you. Here is CTR,s teaching each take what you want and we are happy. If that is what you want that is what you will get.
To all; Thank you for your posts.
Just touching on a bit first. Do you find it interesting that Is 25:4 could apply to the great crowd rather then the 144,000? But keep in mind Re 21:4 has all faithful resurrected included. “every tear”=Re 17:17 conecting the dot.
How so? “a shade from the heat.” Re 7:16,”neither shall the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat.” This is for human beings not spirits.
Please read the first 4 verse of Is 25. Mentions, those who are a strong people will glorify you; not,”the town of the tyrannical nations, they will fear you.” Read Ezekiel 38:23 Does a dot connect people of the nations is what we are talking about? Not something heavenly?
But what about the bad ones of the nations who don’t fear Jehovah? Did you note verse 5? “The melody itself of the tyrannical ones becomes suppressed.” Compare Re18:22 Do the dots connect?
Verses 6-8 Now when someone reads 1 Cor 15:50-58 it is true death is brought to nothing for those heavenly ones. “must put on immortality.” He then says a little later,”Death is swallowed up for ever.” Let compare Re 20:6,”second death has no authority.” So it agrees with Paul.
Then Paul says,”Is swallowed up forever.” Lets compare 21:4,”And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be know more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” This is talking about the people who will be living on earth.
Did not say they have immortality or immune from second death. Note Is 25:7 talking aboutover all the peoples.” Mankind not spirits. Earthly not heaven. Verse 8 Something very key here. “He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovahwill certainly wipe the tears from all faces.” Stop there. Compare Re 7:17; Re 21:4; and lets read Is 35:10,”And the very ones redeemed by Jehovah will return and certainly come to Zion with a joyful cry; and rejoiceing to time indefinite will be upon their head. To exhultation and rejoicing they will attain, and grief and sighing must flee away.”
Vol I p214 Read par 2 groups. He is putting group 2 as angels, don’t have immorality like the little flock. Now he is thinking like you,”stand before the throne.” He is missing the point that when Jehovah is on his throne humans worship him while living on earth. Through his son the prayers reach him. Those that he accepts have a good standing with him. Get it ? Standing with him, their inner most things spilled out to him who is on the throne. Now don’t think he is sitting on a throne like a human. The heavens alone cannot contain him. Likewise, flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly kingdom. So if you take it literally according to the Greek, then you have them in heaven with hands, and palm branches in there hands.
Now I have shown Is 25 is talking earthly and given a scripture or two matching the great crown. Here is one more.
Do these dots connect? 9,”And in that day one will certainly say: Look! This is our God. We have hoped in him, and he will save us. This is Jehovah. We have hoped in him. Let us be joyful and rejoice by the salvation by him.”
Re 19:1,”After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God.”
Ps 150:6,”Every breathing thing-let it praise Jah. Praise Jah you people.”
Are these spirits or people praesing him?
Max,
Thank you for trying to help me understand your point of view, but I apologize as the dots are not connecting for me. I am getting slightly confused by your responses. This might be entirely my own doing, but I am trying to understand your view of some of the points I raised on your previous comments as well as these other passages that you are bringing up.
It appears that you are trying to prove something that we already agree on, that there will be a mass of humanity that will be resurrected on the earth. This we already agree on! It is the identification of the great crowd in Revelation that we disagree on.
Here are some more Scriptures that would support your (and our) view that there will be a resurrected mass of humanity on the earth.
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Acts 24:14,15)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves will hear his voice, And will come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:12,13)
In regards to Isaiah 25, I earlier pointed to 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul applies the context also to the 144,000 immortal ones. Are you suggesting that some verses in this chapter apply one way and some verses apply another way? How would you support this from the context of Isaiah? Where are the breaks in the context and what phrases in the context state that they should be applied differently than what the context dictates?
If I am understanding you correctly (and please forgive me as I am really trying to catch the idea), you are also suggesting that the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:50 is split, that one phrase references the 144,000 and another phrase (in the same sentence mind you) references something else? How would you know to interpret anything if you read one part of a sentence one way and another phrase in a sentence another regardless of the context? It is for this reason that I think I am misunderstanding you and as I stated previously, if I misunderstand you please forgive me.
I am really trying to grasp your thought. Can you try to break it down for me into smaller easier to bite concepts that we can discuss point by point? I appreciate your zeal and encourage you to continue to defend what you believe.
On another one of your side notes — How does Ezekiel 38 fit into the context of the discussion? Ezekiel 38 references specifically the nation of Israel by name stating that all nations would come against them to battle in the last days. This has not yet happened. Note carefully that the context of Ezekiel 37-39 speaks about Israel’s regathering in the last days to their land (in unbelief). Only after the nations come against Israel to battle is the spirit poured out on the nation and they come to recognize and believe in Messiah. This is something that we look forward to in the future!
But I am not sure how this proves or disproves that the ‘great crowd’ is the resurrected masses of humanity. As I stated earlier, it appears that you are trying to prove something that we already agree on, that there will be a mass of humanity that will be resurrected on the earth. This we already agree on! It is the identification of the great crowd in Revelation that we disagree on.
There was a public talk on Who Will Survive Armageddon recently in Chicago. (https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/WHO_WILL_SURVIVE_ARMAGEDDON_Published.pdf). This appears to be a VERY timely issueas this is the cover story for the February 1, 2011 issue of the Wt (http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_E_20120201.pdf).
If I understand correctly, Jehovah’s Witnesses view themselves as the “Israel of God” in the end times, and that their regathering and the subsequent war against them from all the nations at Armageddon is ‘prophetic’ of the regathering of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the last days and the attempt of all the nations of the earth to destroy them at Armageddon.
If this is true, then the context of Zechariah shows that the witnesses do not have the Holy Spirit.
Zechariah 12:9-10 shows that the spirit of God is poured out on Israel only AFTER the nations come against them to battle.
“In that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” (Zechariah 12:9-10)
Generally the witnesses take verse 10 and apply it only at the time of Jesus and not in sequence as Zechariah 12 does. I believe they do this because it would identify themselves as not having the holy spirit before Armageddon.
In the Februrary 1, 2011 WT on the subject, it states, “The prophecy in Revelation speaks of a time in the near future when Satan and the demons will motivate human governments to assemble their armies, thus issuing a defiant challenge to God’s interests. The attack will result in the death ofmillions of people when God defeats the invaders.—Revelation 19:11-18. . . . The war of Armageddon is not an act of aggression by God. Instead, God will defend
good people from those who would crush them. The aggressors in this conflict are ‘the kings of the entire inhabited earth,’ the world’s leaders. Why the attack? Because, like a puppet master, Satan will maneuver both governmental and military agencies into an all-out assault on those who worship Jehovah God. — Revelation 16: 13, 14; 19:17, 18.” (Page 6).
On Page 7, the thought continues, “The Bible also warns that in the future when Satan and his human puppets attack God’s people, Jehovah will again step in and meet force with force. In fact, God’s Word long foretold that Jehovah will destroy the wicked. (Proverbs 2:21, 22; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9) At that time, there will be no doubt in the minds of the attackers that they have picked a fight with the Almighty himself.—Ezekiel 38:21-23.”
Interestinly enough, the context of Ezekiel is JUST like that of Zechariah’s. The Spirit is poured out on Israel only AFTER the battle of Armageddon. This would again identify that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do NOT have the holy spirit if they are Israel in the context and Armageddon has not come.
Ezekiel 38
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 ¶ And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
The context of Joel is similar (which also speaks of the northern army coming against them to battle. The result of the battle in Joel is also similar to Ezekiel and Zechariah’s…it is so that Israel will recognize their sins, they will repent, and the Lord will deliver them AND all of the nations that came against them to battle will also have opportunity to recognize and worship Jehovah.
“I will remove the northern army far from you, and I will drive it into a parched and desolate land, and its vanguard into the eastern sea, and its rear guard into the western sea. and its stench will arise and its foul smell will come up, for it has done great things. thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your god, and there is no other; and my people will never be put to shame. t will come about after this that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind . . . and it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.” (Joel 2:20, 27, 32)
The result for the unbelieving nations is also similar in Zechariah and Ezekiel.
Zechariah 14:9, 15
“The LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and his name the only one . . .
then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths. and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.”
Here they are shown mercy and given opportunity to repent. A curse of ‘no rain’ is vastly different than the second death that the WatchTower society claims.
And finally, Ezekiel 38-39 has the same outcome…. “‘I will magnify myself, sanctify myself, and make myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD.'” (Ezekiel 38:23).
If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are Israel in these contexts, then the Society is without the Holy Spirit and does not recognize Jesus as Messiah as the contexts state.
This was a side note and apologize for getting a little long winded, but this topic is a passion of mine and one that I joined a Christian talk radio program on back in May.
http://www.christianquestions.net/en/2011mp3/657_Can_one_who_dies_an_Unbeliever_still_be_Saved_05_01_11.mp3
You can view the video here —
http://blog.christianquestions.net/2011/06/watch-our-program-can-an-unbeliever-who-dies-still-be-saved/
Thank you again Max for taking the time to try to help me understand your perspective.
Keep in mind that much of what you are trying to prove is what we already agree on.
Greetings Max:
I noticed something interesting left out of your message. It is true one doesn’t have to be in heaven to be “in sight of the throne of God” (enopion tou thronou tou theou)(Rev. 7:15). However, the same verse goes on to tell us that they are “serving him day and night in his sanctuary” (latreusin auto hemeras kai nuktas en to naos auto), that is in the holiest room in the temple, which is what the word naos meant. That word kept that meaning right into Byzantine times where it signified the inner sanctum of Byzantine churches and temples.
That pretty much places the great crowd in heaven, the holy of hollies of the anti-typical temple. Revelation 19:1 confirms that placement, whether you take the “hos” in the Greek as genuine or not.
Max that was a good logical presentation you just wrote,however,it went south when you jumped from Rev. 7:9 to Matt. chapters 24 & 25…basically non-sequetor. It’s like me reading Genesis 1:1 then Ps. 37:11……
Hi Jeff;
Re 7,”four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth.”
Going to stop there for a bit. Do you think that is where God’s throne is?
“that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree.”
STOP! Ps 37:35,”I have seen the wicked a tyrant And spreading himself as a luxuriant tree in native soil.”
“And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of the living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
How many were sealed? Verse 4,”144,000″ Why would that be literal? RE 14:1 “THE Lamb and 144,000.”
We know the Lamb is a literal 1.
Then what happens at verse nine? Look! “a great crowd which no man was able to number.” Definitely a different group. “Then the king will say to those on his right,’Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.” Mt 25:34
These are the ones who do good to Jesus brothers in the end times, it is as if they did those good things to Jesus.Remember Mt 24:31,”And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”
Do we men have to be in heaven to be before Jehovah? Ps 11:4,”Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah- in the heavens is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men.”
Do they have to go to heaven to be examined? Of coarse not. For verse 9 compare these verses. John 10:16; Re 22:17; Ge 22:18; Is 2:2; 60:3; Re 15:4; Ps 117:1; Is 66:18; Re 7:14; Le 23:40; John 12:13
Were you able to connect all the dots? Consider Ps 3:8,”Salvation belongs to Jehovah. Your blessing is upon your people.” These people aren’t in heaven shouting Salvation from Jehovah. They are on earth.
Here is my challenge to you. Last sentence of 7,”And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
The challenge, so me a verse where God wipes out tears from the chosen ones in heaven.
Then consider Re 21:4,”And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”
And Is 25:8,”He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken it.”
It is so close! What a truly wonderful blessing awaits mankind. Ps 37:29 Of coarse it will be a blessing for the 144,000 also.
Most of whom have been resurrected to heaven and with a small number united in worship along with the other sheep doing the most holy work. The preaching earth wide of God’s kingdom.
Max, I appreciate your point of view and would like to try to understand it. I would have to say that the scriptures posted did not prove anything to me. I looked up each one and reviewed the contexts of each.
I would like to say that I am not sure you caught the point of my post or the article which argues that “before the throne” is not an identification that the great crowd is an earthly class. I would state emphatically that although multitudes will be resurrected on the earth, this is not the ‘great crowd’ of Revelation 7 or 19.
You suggested one only needs to ‘connect the dots,’ but as I said, I would like to try to understand your view, but I have trouble following the logic through the Scriptures posted.
Psalm 3:8 would apply to all who trust in God, annointed or not. This conext is not about a group resurrected on the earth.
You said, “Going to stop there for a bit. Do you think that is where God’s throne is?”
On this we are in agreement. Of course not. This is a symbolic picture.
You also stated, “a great crowd which no man was able to number. Definitely a different group.”
We are in agreement here as well. The context definitely speaks of these two groups as different groups. One group is numbered and the other is not.
Since Psalm 37:29 would apply to both groups I am not sure I see why it would reference just a ‘great crowd.’
You pointed at Revelation 7:17 which speaks about how God wipes out the tears of those who are saved and state that you did not believe this would be true of the 144,000.
I am sure that you would agree that Revelation 7:17 is referencing Isaiah 25:8 which you quoted. Did you know that Isaiah 25:8 is quoted in 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 which si specifically talking about those who are changed “in the moment in the twinkling of an eye” and who are “raised incorruptible. . . . For the corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
“But thanks be to God, Which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:58.
The 144,000 are a spiritual and heavenly group, and so is the great company. And it is a wonderful blessing which is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in Scripture that God has a plan for the rest of the unbelieving world to have an opportunity in the paradise earth to learn about God and worship him.
If you continue into the next chapter of Isaiah (26) reveiew Isaiah 26:9 that states that when “God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
This is the group that will be on earth. No, it is not the great crowd, but it includes all those who are not in the great crowd or 144,000 which are described in revelation as in heaven.
I agree Max!
To Ken;
People think that New Jerusalen is coming down literally. Check its measurements. No man-made city could ever reach that far into outer space.