INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Good Mprning Jeff and everyone else. Jeff I hope you will back trap to get all the posts The feet are only one thing there will be much much more before it is all said and done, so please come along for the ride.
But I do have to make an apology. One of my posts said page 302 pf VOL II,it should have been VOL III p 302.
And it is a good place to do a review. The verses mentioned and which were questioned were. Jude 14; Dan 7:10; Mt 25:31; Zech 14:5
Why was Pastor Russell talking that much of this was being fulfilled then and the st shortly?
VOL III Page 302,”The plan of God is now made manifest: we are made to understand it now as never before.” Do you all believe that?
Read on,”The opening of the books of the divine revelation will soon be completed. The judgement of the world is already comencing upon the institutions of nominal Christendom.”
Did you catch the words? “will soon be completed.”
Is it possible you missed the fullfillment even though you read his books but think everything is future? Why a recent Bible Student questioned is the Pastor wrong. 137 years or 97 years depending on which date you take. 1874 or 1914. Stop and ask yourself a question. Was the Pastor right in preaching the Gentile times were to end in 1914?
Lets say they did. Why not paradise? Read Ps chapter 2. The Gentiles to not Reconize the King. Why would not the King destroy them right there?
Did not Jesus say it would be like the days of Noah? You should all know this scripture, 2 Pe 2:5 if you don’t look it up.
A preacher of rigtheousness! Why is that so important? It is a witness to Jehovah,s love, wisdom, and justice. He gave them a chance. But there are many more people living today. And Jehovah shows those same attributes today. Mt 24:14,”And this Good News about the Kingdom will be preached through all the world for a witness to all mankind; and then the end will come.” GNB Did it say all will believe contrary to Noah’s day? No! A witness!
So now here is where some of the excitement comes in from Zechariah. Are you ready? GNB Zech 14:5,”You will escape through this valley.”
It will be a flight to God’s protective provision. Their flight to the very great valley between “my mountains,” guarded on the north and on the south by the halfs of the sybolic Mount of Olives, Yes, to beneath Jehovah’s feat. But why two mountains you ask?
Remenber what starts taking place at the end of the appointed times in 1914? Read Da 3:36-45. BLE,”the God of heaven shall set up an emire invulnerable forever, and the emire shall not pass to another people.” “a stone was cut outof a mountain without hands.”
Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom is the mountain. He cuts out a stone which becomes the Messianic Kingdom. He puts his Son in charge of that one. Yet he overlooks both so as to having both feet there.
So should not all JW,s and BIBLE Students, and any honest hearted ones out there flee to the valley? It has been happening for almost a hundred years.
Did the Pastor believe this? Vol III p 301 the title,” Thy God Reigneth!”
“A Resume of the Prophetic Evidence Which Show the Presence of Imanuel, and that his Kingdom is in Process of Establishment.”
wow! It’a a happening! “The Kingdom of God has indeed come.”
Keep in mind the Pastor new some things were future. Zech 14:3 a fixed time. Matches Ez 38:1–39:5
But when that happens, you want to be spiritually found in the valley! Note what the Pastor believed. P 305,”The Times of the Gentiles, will expire in 1914.”
“The God of heaven will set up a kingdom.” It happened! Flee to it while time is left.
Max,
I’m not sure how to take some of the things that you write. You wrote, ”
Did you catch the words? ‘will soon be completed.'”
If possible, please prove to me what you are trying to say from the Scriptures. This should be our sole source of authority.
Regarding the Gentile Times, what do you believe the Pastor taught about it? Do you know that what is commonly believed by Jehovah’s Witnesses is not correct?
But…this is moving off into another topic/tangent without any response to what was previously stated on several contexts of Scriptures that I had brought up.
Regarding the image of Daniel . . . I believe you missed the point of it as it references specifically the people of Daniel, the Jews, and how long the beastely nations would reign over the Jewish people. The scriptures state that after the completion of the Gentile Times they would return as a nation. This was fulfilled.
Max, may we please return to the topic? I raised some passages I would like you to consider from Zechariah 12, 14, Ezekiel 37-39, and Romans 11.
I thank you in advance for your cooperation and time.
max what day do you think bro Russell had in mind when referencing these scriptures
Jude 14; Zech 14:5; Mt 25:31; Dan 7:10
Remember the first post about the two feet on the Mount of Olives? Note Vol IV page 649 subheading. It reads: “Jehovah’s Feet On The Mount Of Olives.”
There you have it from Pastor Russell.
And note how he starts it off. “This prophecy is generally misunderstood, and applied to the feet of our Lord Jesus, at his second advent.”
Written in 1897 C.E.
Here is some sobering news. If you don’t believe those are Jehovah’s feet, then you don’t believe Pastor Russell or Jehovah’s Witnesses. You are still invited to follow along but really won’t get the massage. As the Pastor said some are blinded.
Hopefully I will have some more tomorrow as it gets better and better.
Get your note book out. Here we go again. Lets check the Pastor CTR on Zec 14:5.
Such is the present situation: the great Judge has come-not as the first advent, in a body of humiliation, for sacrifice, but in the plenitude of his power as a spirit being, clother with the glory of divine authority, as the representative of Jehovah.”
“The plan of God is now manifwst: we are made to understand it now as never before.” Vol II page 302
Note the verses he used ahead of this. Jude 14; Zech 14:5; Mt 25:31; Dan 7:10.
Note page 301, A resume of the prophetic evidence which show the presence of Imamanuel, and that his kingdom is in process of establishment.
Written in 1891 C.E.
To all;
Please everyone take notes as this will be a running post. What the pastor CTR said in Vol I page 157,”our Lord coupled words of caution to guard us against certain errors which would be advanced about the time of his second advent, calculated to lead his Church astray.”
“and are waiting to see Jesus in the flesh, with the scars, as when crucified. Expecting him as he was, and not”as he is,” they seriously err, and blind themselves to the truth, as did the Jews at the first advent. These false expectations lead this class to interpret literally the statement of the prophet Zechariah(Zech. 14:4), “His feet shall stand in that dayupon the Mount of Olives,”etc.*footnote reads,”We leave the examination of this prophecy for another occasion.” Blined by false expectations, they do not see that the “feet” in this passage are figurative, as truly as in Ps 91:12; Is 52:7; Ps 7:6; 110:1; Eph 6:15; Duet 33:3; and in many other passages.
It will be much later so stay with the whole thing to see how these feet do it and whose they are.
Good morning Max,
I’m not sure what is going on. I’m a bit lost here. How did the conversation switch to ‘feet’ on the mount of olives?
Hi Max please correct me if I’m wrong but are you applying the scriptures from Zechariah. as all ready taking place in 1919?
To ALL;
On Jeff’s 12:29 post if everyone can read the part about Zechariah 12:1012 And Zec 14:9,15.
It will take me some time to show the meaning for you in what I will attemp to do in a clear way. But because you all may end up like Lot’s sons-in-laws, I still would like to try. Do I have you all on board? If not, consider the following.
Moses led the nation to the promised land. And before he died he handed over the lead to Joshua who had become a follower of Moses leadership. But Moses did not go into the promised land, but he got a peak at part of it.
Likewise Pastor Russell was leading Bible Students through the wilderness. And for 28 years he told about 1914. Even though he did not walk into a paradise, keep in mind that Moses did not either. But before dying Moses got a peak.
The Pastor lived to almost 1917, and even though Jehovah’s elect did not enter the spiritual paradise till 1919 the Pastor had a peak.
If the Pastor could not speak to you from heaven would you listen? Then sign your name that you will let me finish all the info I will give you over the next couple of weeks.
Max
Max, I printed some of the statistics to let you brothers see who is reading all the posts. Russia had 40 persons on. Normally we have no more than 6. That is encouraging since they are experiencing persecution in some of the smaller provinces along with other religions. Most is fueled by the Russian othodox church however. So many read and look on but they don’t comment. I thought I would let everyone know the international aspect of this site. We can thank the Father for this. In him who saved us. Jacqueline
Where are the statistics? And bear with me Humbleman.
Okay but I check all spam twice daily so if you don’t see your comment I will eventually get it.
We are now at the convention. Log on instructions is on the first page as you open up. We presently have 58 online.
Thank you Max for your kind words.
We too will be busy for the next few days as we will be hosting a conference in Chicago. Join us if you like online. You can remain anonymous if you would like.
You can visit us online for the next three days at —
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/12/26/dec-31-jan-2-chicago-bible-students-convention-you-are-invited-to-attend-online/
Regarding 1918, why do you believe that Jesus came in 1914 and then waited 3.5 years to resurrect the sleeping saints of the past? I’m not sure how this fits into where the great crowd is as we agree that humanity will be on earth in the paradise and the anointed will be in heaven. It is just the identification of the great crowd that is the issue here since the majority of the passages you raised could also apply to the 144,000 as well (as I pointed out earlier).
I missed something. How does Matthew 24 show that the annointed would be alive and on earth before Armageddon is over and the spirit is poured out on Israel? Is this not in direct contradiction to the contexts of the passages I quoted earlier as well as Romans 11 which specifically states that Israel would be blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles, meaning …until all of the 144,000 are in heaven.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25)
I am not sure I would equate the ‘time of trouble’ of Matthew 24 with armageddon. I don’t believe these are the same things as this time of trouble encompasses so much more according to Matthew and the parallel accounts.
I really don’t see anything coming in regards to the UN in Bible prophecy. None of that interpretation has really made any sense to me as it all fits in so well with a historical interpretation (not preterist).
Keep in mind that the pattern is the same between Zechariah, Ezekiel, Joel, Romans, etc.
I look forward to continued discussion with you. This has been quite interesting and insightful. Thank you for your time.
Jeff this is Jacqueline. Two of your comments have been released late because for some reason they are going to spam. Sorry I didn’t check it earlier. Getting ready for the three day convention. See you tommorrow.
Hi Jacqueline.
I think it is because I put a website link. I’ll refrain from doing that in the future to see what happens.
Would like to thank all for your comments. To check the sites you gave me will take sometime. Probaly next week. With so much mentioned I will throw in a few things.
The Israel of God was the fleashly nation with a covenant. Duet 5:3-5 The spiritual nation of Israel is the 144,000 of which most have died. In 1918 they were resurrected and when one dies now it is the Twinkling of an eye. 1 Cor 15:51,52.
Jer 33:31-33 mentions a new covenant coming. I am sure we agree so far. Except for maybe 1918?
Why some of the chosen may be alive at ARMAGGEDON. Consider Mt 24:21,22,”For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible then any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there be anything like it again. But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days.”
Verse 21——–Re 7:9——–Re 16:14-16 Let me give a thought. Some think that had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. 1.1 Million killed, 97,000 taken captive. Duet 28:68
Well when the Romans left in 66 C.E. the chosen ones fled to Pella. But Mt is talking about today 21. WWI was way worse then 70 C.E.,so it is coming. Maybe you heard two senators from Montana being recalled with also 8 other states. Why? They helped pass a new bill erasing the 1867 one. So what does that mean? KNOCK, KNOCK. Who’s there ,someone to take you away,for what,there doesn’t have to be a reason. U.N. flag half mast . Why? The dictator from Korea died. The U.S.A. contributes 26% of the money to it. The eight one made up of the seven. Surely you all see it coming.
Lets say God would let it go longer and there would be no flesh saved. The remaining ones of the little flock would live out there life another 30 or 40 years. Continuing to serve there God and when the last one dies, BAM, the whole earth of mankind is destroyed. But Jehovah being the loving God that he is, has a large group of other sheep helping his sons brothers and giving a witness to the nations before the end. So if I should make it to the 1,000 years of peace and a resurrected person says why didn’t you save my children. My reply will be, I did try, But they thought I was joking. Lots two son-in-laws.
Those resurrected ones won’t be able to question Jehovah as to why yhey weren’t saved. Peter says,”they took no note.”
Well I will try to listen to one or two later today. And will try to focus on Zechariah next time.