INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Good morning Ken and Jeff;
Ken as to your though about witness to Jesus. Re 12:17 JW,s have a book out, The Greatest Man that ever lived. Having said that remember when you go on a trip to tilt. On the way there you have to go through the mountain called top. The only possoble way you can reach it. At tilt, you hope to get a white pearl. Re 2:17 Getting through top was an absolute must to do this. If you syop at or in the mountain of top, you will never reach tilt.
After you retirned with your whit pearl and others come to you you will say Jehovah gave me this white pearl. They ask how will I get one? Surely you will witness about the mountain and explain don’t stop there but it is the only way, but tilt is where you need to reach. John 14:6
Oh I get the mountain. John 14:6 Then tilt, Is 54:13. Hope that takes care of your thought Ken.
This leads me into Jeff’s article on PBI. Jeff stated read the Bible and believe what you want.
I refuse to believe Jehovah will teach diderent things to his people. Is 54:13 Like wise the teachings of sinners instructed by Jehovah. Ps 25:8
That is a big difference in JW,s and the Bible Students who believe what they want. The differences of beliefs are so numerous amonst those Students that it is not worth opening.
You might say sometimes JW,S fALL AWAY TO DIFFERENT BELIEFS. True, Paul warned us about that. 1 Tim 1:19,”Holding the faith in good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning their faith.”
Where do these go? The same place the others went. Verse 20,”I handed them over to Satan.”
I would hate to belong or say I believe like a certain group, and then have people who are handed over to Satam come and say he is one like me.
My next post will go with the 1914 Jeff. Why the little flock and other sheep believe it.
Hope you get better.
Max, me know it’s important to use God’s name(Jehovah)and the Jw’s use it alot as they go from door to door,however, Rev. 12:17 mentions, “the work of bearing witness to Jesus”. Bearing witness to Jesus is something the Bible students and Jw’s have in commen,even so, my opinion is the Bible students emphasize Jesus more than the Jw’s.
Hi Jeff this one is long and I had a few thought s earlier and will try and get something back to you next week.
Why are there some dates such as 1914,1919,1935, show verses. But first lets realize the importance of them and if there are none.Gen 15:13 and Acts 7:6 say 400 hundred years. Ex 12:40,”And the dwelling of the sons of Israel who had dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.” Did Moses now this when he came back to Egypt? Did the slaves in Egypt have a copy of what was said to Abraham and so were expecting it? I will give you a no on both. God New what he was doing but they didn’t. Moses wrote this later under inspiration. And notice how exact Jehovah was. “it even came about on this very day.” 12:41
So,under the New Covenant is it wrong for Jehovah to choose what he will let you see coming and what just happens by his lead? Well we just saw it planned and told to one of his people who would be long dead when it happened. So if we have a mind set where everything has to be predicted , we are setting up ourselves for disappointment. Just like what Jesus told them in ACTS 1,”times and seasons that are in Jehovah’s hands.”
Today I will give you the verses for the end of the nations which Jesus reconized as still going. Luke 21:24 What you have to focus in on here is it is talking about the one who would come in the linage of King David, the one who would have the legal right. That one is now a spirit creature. 1 Pe 3:18
Read EZ 21:25-27 The crown was lifted off in 607 B.C.E. Put back on in fall of 1914. 2,520 years. Remember these two verses. Ez 4:6; Num 14:34
Then Da 4:16,23,25,32. the seven times. Then Re 11:3 “a thousand two-hundred and sixty days, and verse two for forty two months.
Re 12:6,14,”they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. she is fed for a time and times and a half of time.”
A time, times and a half of time eqauls 1,260 days If you ad three and a half times to the same number you get 7 times equals 2,520 days. Remember them two verses Ez 4:6; Num 14:34? a day for a year a year for a day.
Pastor Russell told about this coming for 28 strong years even though he learned of it a little earlier. Will have to reference my
Three Worlds.
But who were the first to see the 2,520 years? TWO from England about 1860,s rough guess. But a preacher named Miller had it, but his chronolgy was off. I have a copy of that page. If you would like one give me a fax number.
I could give more examples of How Jehovah shows an exact and when he does not. We all know the 70 years in Babylon. Also I will in the future show you where people had God’s spirit and then they didn’t and then it was again given to them again. This is already passed.
Lets ask this question? Will God have two groups of elect? Such as the annointed of JW,s and all the Bible Students? Now it is true they do believe some things the same. But a long way off on others.
Which group on arriving in heaven will feel comfortable when asked by the slaughtered Christians who went door to door there whole life, and asked why didn’t you? And why did you?
For example a Bible Student group some where does not use God’s name, but they claim to be in with many other groups.
Picture that conversation. Peter says you used God’s name but you did not. But to all the annointed JW,s it was a resounding yes we did.
It reminds me of an illustration Jesus gave. All these virgins had their lamps but some ran out of oil. But others did not. Then those without said, can we have some? And were told I have none to spare. Which group do you think made it in the gates of the city?
Now I do not have to worry about that. Why? Because I am not of the bride class. We concentrate on helping Jesus brothers who are of the bride class.
Well, got to run for now.
Hi Max,
I’m a little under the weather today. I’m fighting some cold. I just woke up from a 17 hour sleep and trying to feel a little better.
I just have a couple comments on your words today.
Why do you interpret the 7 times in Daniel as a year for a day and not also the 3.5 times in Daniel and Revelation?
You said, “Pastor Russell told about this coming for 28 strong years even though he learned of it a little earlier. Will have to reference my Three Worlds.”
A slight correction. Pastor Russell didn’t write the “Three WOrlds.” Nelson Barbour did.
Take a look at this article on Bible Student history and where the doctrines came from that I wrote a while ago.
http://www.heraldmag.org/2006_history/06history_5.htm
I am looking forward to an in depth response to the Scriptures that I’ve mentioned previously.
Hi To All;
Thank you for your comments. Wrote some major things down. A few things you will have to remember is many times it is refering to the elect. Thus No one should say what about the great crowd. I am not ignoring them, but when prophcey is talking about the elect then that is where the focus goes, but the great crowd will surface.
First and forefost. There are the elect sheep and there are the other sheep. When we say great crowd, we are talking about those other sheep that came trough the great tribulation. They received salvation from Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ. So right now on this planet we have both classes of sheep making one fold. John 10:16
No other group has this, but JW,s. That is why only JW,s can explain Ze 8:22,23. We all know Da 12 has been being fulfilled. 9,10, A clensing for some and not for others. Which brings us to the question. How do the elect and the great crowd both come to have white robes? We will take them in the order they come.
1. Re 6:11,”And a white robe was given to each of them.” Why? 9,”those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that thet used to have.” I don’t think any explaination is needed as to why.But is raises a question for the elect. What should the elect be doing today who are living? Lets let God answer that. Re 12:17,”wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.” Yes Re 1:1,10, show God gave this Revelation and 10 shows it takes us to the Lord’s day. So these elect have been busy in the preaching work. Mt 24:14 Keep in mind the ones who died, received a white robe, these having been of the elect.
2. Re 7:9,”dressed in white robes and palm branches in their hands.” 13,”who are dressed in the white robes? John does not know. “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” Why? “they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” And showing that this great crowd along with the resrrected will benifit from God, His Son, and the 144,000 please follow. Re 7:17,”because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepard them, and will guide them to fountains of water of life.And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” Re 22:1,”And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb.”
The river originates at,”the throne of God and of the Lamb.” This is apprropriate, since the basis of Jehovah’s life-giving provisions is the ransom sacrifice, and this was provided because Jehovah “loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 The water of life also involves God’s Word, which is spoken ofas water in the Bible. Eph 5:26 However, the river of water of life includes not only the truth but also every other provision of Jehovah, based on Jesus sacrifice, for recovering obedient humans from sin and death and granting them everlasting life. John 1:29; 1 John 2:1,2. During that Thousand Year Reign, the benefits of the ransom are applied fully through the priesthood of Jesus and his 144,000 underpriests. Fittingly, then, the river of water of life flows through the middle of the broad way of New Jerusalem.”
3. Re 22:14,”Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life, may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.” This is of coarse speaking of the elect who go to heaven. Because they are living and dying during the Lord’s day a person must read it as though they are alive right now. Why? “Happy are those who wash their robes.”
You see many are claiming to go to heaven, but only those who are called and wash their robes will gain entrance into the city by its gates. And those still living which belong to the bride class are very busy. How? 17,”And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: Come! And let anyone wishes take life’s water free.” Mt 24:14; Is 55:1; John 7:37; Re 7:17; Re 21:6
Max, have you noticed the points on which we agree?
Thank you so much for your time and patience.
I had time here at my lunch break to jot down a ‘short’ note. Well, it was going to be a short note, but it kept growing and growing because of the other passages you brought out. However I did attempt to ring the passages in by paralleling them with the context of the other passages I’ve already raised and which I am looking for a response.
You suggested that “many times passages are “refering to the elect.”
I’m sure that the elect were not the unbelievers who had the spirit poured out on them AFTER Armageddon.
Regarding John 10:16 I believe it is referencing the Jews and Gentiles who were to be added in. I see no reason in the context to apply it to a spiritual vs. earthly resurrection.
You stated, “Right now on this planet we have both classes of sheep making one fold.” Think about this a little. If any Christian group is identifying themselves as Israel in Scripture, the contexts of the the passages I quoted (and many others) suggest that before Armageddon they are unbelievers and they they do not have the holy spirit.
This all still does not identify the ‘great crowd’ from Scripture.
I see you quoted another passage (Zechariah 8:22-23) without responding to the previous comments or passages. I appreciate your time and willingness to do this, but it would be nice to hear a response in regards to how you interpret the context of these passages which appears to directly contradict most of what you have said. Zechariah’s prophecy can interpret itself. Zechariah 8:22-23 can be understood in the light of Zechariah 14 where after the battle of Armageddon (and after the spirit is poured out) the following happens.
Zechariah 14:14-18 — “Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.”
The parallel account to this is in Haggai 2 where the context is the same again.
Haggai 2:22 mentions this battle of Armageddon and the offer of salvation to Israel after that happens.
Haggai 2:6-8 “for thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. ‘I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘the silver is mine and the gold is mine,’ declares the LORD of hosts.”
This is similar to the Zechariah passage I quoted above which places this period of an offer of salvation to the unbelievers in the time AFTER Armageddon.
Earlier in the chapter it is repeated. . . .
Haggai 2:22 “‘I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, everyone by the sword of another.’”
These passages still do not identify the ‘great crowd.’ All these passages prove is what we already agree on, that there will be a resurrected mass of humanity on earth in the future millennial kingdom. On this we can agree completely, but these passages also show some of our other disagreements in who will have an opportunity in that day to accept salvation.
Note who is specifically mentioned in the rest of the context in the Zechariah 8 context.
“. . . .then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.”
The unbelieving nations after Armageddon are given an opportunity to repent and come to the side of Yahweh. However, there are consequences for thsoe who will disobey. . . .
“and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. if the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the feast of booths.”
These Scriptures show that unbelievers will have an opportunity after Armageddon. It also shows that more than Israel or Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive this calamity. The grace of God is so incredible that he will hold out his hand to the unbeleiving nations and offer than an opportunity of salvation AFTER Armageddon.
Again you bring up other passages instead of referencing those that we are still waiting on some reply.
Here are the passages again —
Zechariah 12:9-10
Zechariah 14:9, 15
Zechariah chapters 12 and 14
Ezekiel 38:21-29 (chapters 38-39)
Joel 2:20, 27, 32
Romans 11:25
You ended with the following comment, “You see many are claiming to go to heaven….” Again, it appears I am not making myself clear. We agree that many will claim to go to heaven, and many will go to heaven. We also agree that many will be on the earth in the millennium after Armageddon. I’m not sure why this keeps coming up as if we didn’t agree on this point. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something and I apologize for that.
Your quotation of Revelation 6:11 has no bearing on the topic or our immediate point of disagreement. There is much we agree on regarding the two classes of saved men and also much we disagree on.
One point I would like to make from Matthew 24:14 is that the context appears to apply to both groups, the literal Israel, AND to the elect of God.
Matthew’s account focuses more on the Bride of Christ, while Luke’s account focuses more on the literal nation of Israel.
Luke 21:24 states, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
How do we know if this has been fulfilled? Lets look to Israel. Are they in their land? Check. Are they in Jerusalem? Check. Fullfilled!
I’m not sure what Revelation 12 has to do with the discussion. It is specific reference to the time of the early Church and the empire that grew up out of Rome.
Re 22:1,”And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb.”
The context of Revelation 21 references the masses of humanity. Note Revelation 21:2, “the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Which nations? All nations other than Israel. According to the contexts of the passages I’ve been bringing up all of these unbelieving nations will be offered salvation after Armageddon. This passage fits the contexts of all of these other passages well. Again, this passage does identify some areas we have in agreement, but it doesn’t appear to have any bearing on the identification of what and where the great crowd is.
Regarding your interpretation of Revelation 22:14, do you believe that the 144,000 must eat of the tree of life?
Does this idea not contradict the following passage?
It appears we agree partially on Revelation 22:17. We would agree that it shows the bride of Christ (the 144,000) and all those on the earth the context is referencing who have NOT yet accepted the water of life. This again shows the opportunity offered to unbelieving nations AFTER Armageddon.
I look forward to a response. Please let me know if you understood the areas where we have agreement?
Hi Max,
I’m so glad you cleared that up for me. It makes a bit more sense now. You said, “Now when you read verse 10 keep in mind the flow to 11,”I kept on beholding at that time.” Stop! At that time, a period during that forth beasts existence. A little fast forward. VOL IV p 12,”as,’The Times of the Gentiles” come to a close.'”
I’m not sure I agree the context is referencing the closing of the times of the gentiles. Note carefully that after the Great and terrible beast comes up in Daniel 7, the horns were plucked up out of that empire, the empire of Rome. Rome fell about 1600 years ago so the vision has some application back then.
The ancient of days sets up thrones some time after that. Daniel says “I kept looking until thrones were set up.” We know that the thrones will not set up until the 144,000 are complete and judging men. I believe that we both do not believe that this has happened and that we look forward to this happening at some point in the future. In other words, there was a period of time that elapsed there.
You’ve been quoting Pastor Russell a bit and I would like to do that in regards to Daniel 7:9.
“This judgment against the “thrones” of the present time, and against “the beast and the false prophet” systems follows speedily upon the introduction of this Millennial judgment reign. The thrones of the present dominion of earth will be “cast down,” and the dominion transferred to the great Prophet, Priest, King and Judge, “whose right it is.” (Compare #Da 7:14,22″ (R2609)
The conclusion is that we still wait for the time when Jesus and his 144,000 will reign and judge the peoples of the earth.
Now…. your other post.
I think that we agree that Jesus will reign over mankind, and as I quoted above, Jesus will reign with his 144,000. Mankind is not yet being judged by this complete 144,000 in heaven.
What Scriptures would prove that Jesus was ‘installed as king”
in 1914?
Where does 1919 come from? 1935? What Scriptures would prove these dates?
What does any of this have to do with the great crowd? It appears to be more of a side topic rather than specific passages which identify both what this group is and where it is located.
I am still waiting for a response from you in regards to the following passages.
Zechariah 12:9-10 (all of chapter 12)
Zechariah 14:9, 15 (all of chapter 14)
Ezekiel 38:21-29 (all of Ezekiel 38 – 39)
Joel 2:20, 27, 32 (Joel 2 and 3)
Romans 11:25 (all of Romans 11)
Each of these passages references the battle of armageddon and how the spirit is poured out on an UNBELIEVING Israel after the battle is over. And then each of the unbelieving nations that attached Israel, in these contexts, they too are miraculously converted and come to know the Lord.
I believe we are in agreement that the Kingdom will be given to the nations of the earth, although we would disagree who would be there, just like we disagree on the identification of the great crowd.
The question asked in another thread on this forus asks who will survive Armageddon? I think the question should also be asked, who will have opportunity for salvation after Armageddon?
It would appear that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, and all of the unbelieving nations
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
What do the Scriptures state happens to the wicked ones, to those who are not righteous?
Daniel 12:3, “They that be wise, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness, as the stars for ever and ever.”
This is the work of Israel in the future, of the 144,000, and of the great heavenly crowd. The righteous do not need to be led to rigtheousness, only the unrighteous.
I’m not sure the best method of approach in this discussion is to quote scriptures we already agree on. We agree that both the OT and NT prophecies identify that the masses of humanity will occupy the earth in the future kingdom of God.
The disagreement is not only where the great crowd will be but what the great crowd actually is.
The comments I am looking for from you are on the following contexts.
Zechariah 12:9-10
Zechariah 14:9, 15
Zechariah chapters 12 and 14
Ezekiel 38:21-29 (chapters 38-39)
Joel 2:20, 27, 32
Romans 11:25
Hi Max i think i understand what your saying. are you implying Jesus was crowned as king of the kingdom in 1914 when the gentile times ended ? even if this is the case whats that got to do with the great crowd being in heaven or on earth ?
Good afternoon to all. Just got back from fishing so I think only one post has come in. It being from Jeff.
So as I put the brakes on, I would like thank all who came for the ride so far.
How does the great crowd come into this? Lets review first.When the times of the Gentiles ended, did the nations hand over their soverengty to Jehovah and his Son? No they did not. Jehovah new this and has many prophecys to show what would go on in the extended time allowed. But when his Son was installed as King in the fall of 1914 many things were starting to happen. Re 11:15 Keep in mind Jehovah has always been king , but Zechariah 14:4,5. showed us a mountain but then two mountains. Why do we know it was only two mountains? Because Jehovah has his feet on them, two feet, two mountains. Da 2:33-45 showed a mountain, which is Jehovah’s kingdom, having a stone cut out and it will eventually strike all present kingdoms and stand till times indifinete. Jehovah has placed his Son over it. When all said and done, Jesus hands over everthing to his Father. 1 Cor 15:27,28.
Now the elect have found themselves in the valley of protection, and in 1919 entered the spiritual paradise. In 1935 the great crowd was showing up and grabbed ahold of them. So the two flocks are receiving blessing from both kingdoms.
Zech 9:22,23,”And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of Jehovah. This is what Jehovah of armies has said,’It will be in those days that ten men–“Men” Heb., ana-shim, pl of ish.—out of all the languages–Lit., “the tongues” Compare Gen 11:1——-of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man–“Aman”. Heb ish.–who is a Jew– “A Jew” Heb., YEHU-DHI.–SAYING””wE WILL GO WITH YOU PEOPLE, FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT gOD IS WITH YOU PEOPLE.”‘”
Max,
I’m confused even more. You’re moving so quickly from point to point without any acknowledgment of what was said before. The topics change so fast that I’m not sue what the connecting link between them was.
Can you ‘connect the dots’ for me?
What does this have to do with the great crowd of Revelation? Thats what we were discussing …wasn’t it?
Please slow down and help a guy out…thanks!
Jeff on you r question of when Dan 7:10 would be fulfilled. 7:1 Daniel beheld a dream and visions. 7:3 “And four huge beasts.” What and when Jeff did these beast come and go?
Notice what happens after the forth beast is described. 7:9 Attention to the Ancient of Days.
Now when you read verse 10 keep in mind the flow to 11,”I kept on beholding at that time.” Stop! At that time, a period during that forth beasts existence. A little fast forward. VOL IV p 12,”as,”The Times of the Gentiles” come to a close.”
“and he whose right it is shall take the Kingdom, and the nations shall be given to him for an inheritence.” Ez 21:27; Da 7:27; Ps 2:8; RE 2:26,27.”