INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Hi Sr Jacqueline. I’m not sure if its just on my computer but the comments don’t seem to be in order ? we have big audience 🙂
Humbleman, I am back and messing with the comments. I will stop now. Refresh your page and they should fall in order. Also some of us are commenting at the same time. and yes we almost hit 5,000 this last month since Br. Peter gave the talk on “Will only JW survive armageddon?’. Also it has been shoiwn that 1 person will tell at 3 people about something interesting and 2 of them will tell 3 mor each. And you and I knoiw there is always a spouse or another trusted friend with a witness when they view religious material as we believe in a two fold cord. So the statistics are really probably higher. I only report the hard figures.
Did you Notice that Max rev 17 v 14 those called chosen & faithful are with Christ when he conquers the kings. those called chosen & faithful are the bride the 144000 spiritual Israel they come with Christ at Armageddon. so if the 144000 are spirit creatures before Armageddon then who is the Israel they are delivering?
Good question humbleman.
Statistics. 382 persons from 62 countries are exclusively visiting this discussion.Max since you mentioned JW having anointed and other sheep and destruction of wicked at armageddon. I would like to just interject an experience I just had while traveling this weekend and from an anointed in 2009.
A sister and 4yr old female child visited where I was visiting. She had on KH clothing very late, so I commented. She said she went to KH, field service then shopping. While in conversation with another sister on field service activity, she mentioned that her 4yr old daughter was pointing at different people on the street and saying: “He going to die and she will die at armageddon and others as they rode in the car in service. I was shakened and unsettled to see a child so young glow over the fact her mother was giving her experience. To say the wicked will die at armageddon is one thing, but to have a four year old child point out individuals on the street!. Normally mature Christians would have spoken up, but now people are afraid. Others listening did not show open shock even with other children present. It is true that in Millenium the wicked will die having had full opportunity and knowledge to make that decision. We all have that freedom to reject the Savior in the Millenium. But to accept the preaching of a four year old as basis for Gehenna is not rational. Also the adults that laughed and thought it was cute are not fit to judge persons Jesus died for!!.
In 2009 I spoke daily with an anointed of JW. A well respected one by many.
He stated when I asked about Gehenna for nations that don’t know accurately about Jesus. This anointed JW stated. “I don’t have a problem with them dying at armageddon (little children mentioned), Jehovah did it in Noah’s day. We found the truth so all can do the same.” I stated, what if the people in Noah’s day as with Sodom get to know about Jesus instead of hybrids and fallen angels, would they perhaps repent?. He stated they were lost to Gehenna and Jesus had not come yet. He stated Jehovah destroyed them himself. He also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah but Jesus said they will rise up in the resurrection.
This anointed one, as you say, JW have failed to realize what happened in Noah’s day. In addition to Gen. 3:1-5 account of the hearts of man being bad and inclinations of the thoughts of man heart was bad. It also mentions a system that drove this, namely angelic degenerates and their hybrid children who had built a system of men of fame. He took down a system then. But one aspect that we have now that they didn’t is a deliverer that will rule in the midst of his enemies as he put them under his feet in the new Millenium.
Art, I am saying you and JW have the TIME PERIOD wrong on fullfillment of quite a few scriptures. Most things are not salvation points as Jehovah and Jesus has it figured out allready for the good of man and the glory of Jehovah.He does not need to vindicate his name, even Satan shudders at the mention of him getting involved but he will fight with Jesus. It is not about vindication of GOD’s NAME! It is about obedience and accepting the free gift of the Ranson sacrifice for all. This ransom was set in place by the almighty God from the founding of the earth as an all knowing and all seeing God; He foresaw that man would sin but still put a ransom in place and let him learn the hard way that in the future Jehovah’s way is the best. Yes we suffer like bad children but our father still will give us our only chance in Millenium.
I told of the little girl so maybe one parent will see this shocking behaviour and realize before age three you can cause a child to be wihout a soul so to speak as they should not treat dying so callously. In the image of God all men are created. Some will reflect it some will not but we should not teach young children in this manner. That is one of the ways serial killers are made.
Good day my brother in Christ.
The quaking of the earth would be in that section of the land where Gog and his attack forces had penetrated. In the case of actual attack by Gog in the future, his predatory hordes will be all around the globe where Jehovah’s Christian witnesses are peacefully worshipping their God. For all of Gog’s hordes to feel it, the quaking of the earth would have to be global. For it to affect mountains, toppling them, it would have to be very bad, the worst in human history. Just how this universally terrifying earthquake will take place we confidently wait to see. The fact that it coincides with Gog’s invasion, just as divinely foretold, proves that Jehovah is causing it in his rage and fury!
Gog deperately resorts to the “sword” of warfare against Jehovah’s restored remnant of spiritual Israel and the “great crowd” of their fellow worshippers, and so Jehovah meets him with like for like. Jehovah’s peace-keeping witnesses on earth do not take up “sword” against Gog’s hordes, but Jehovah does. This is His fight! And now at last the nations of this scientifically advanced world will see Him fight-no mistaking of it! And how He can fight! Listen, as He describes his war tactics and operations.
Really, though, Jesus Christ fights, not primarily for his own heavenly throne, but for the vindication of Jehovah’s universal Sovereignty and for the glorification of Jehovah’s name. Nicely, then, in order that the glory may go to whom it primarily belongs, there is no mention made to Gog of the reigning king, “David my servant,” as Jehovah himself foretells what he will do when He is provoked to war by the God defying ATTACK MADE BY gOG OF mAGOG. hE SAYS: “‘And it must occur in that day, in the day when Gog comes in upon the soil of Israel,’ is the uttereance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “that my rage will come up into my nose. And my ordor, in the fire of my fury, I shall have to speak. Surely in that day a great quaking will occur in the soil of Israel. And because of me the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the wild beasts of the field and all the creeping things that are creeping on the ground and all mankind that are upon the surface of the ground will be bound to shiver, and the mountains will actually be thrown down and the steep ways willhave to fall, and to the earth even every wall will fall.'” Ez 38:18-20
The unjustified attack of Gog and his militarized hordes is made on a spiritually properous people who have a God-given right to a place on earth and full freedom for the worship of the living and true God. This fact provokes the Sovereign Lord Jehovah to a feeling of outrage, hot indignation. In rebuke to such devilish conduct he will speak with expressions that bespeak control by Him as Creator over the earth and all the forces of earth’s environment.
The “place” for that war, not “the land of Israel,” but Har-Magendon; however, the Hebrew name Har-Magedon apparently denotes a world situation connected with that land. Compare Joel 3:9-17.
The aggressive movement of Gog and his international hordes is not just against the land of Jehovah’s restored people but also against their King, whom Jehovah calls “my servant David.” Ez 34:23,24; 37:22-25 He is the entroned Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Beloved One, the Messianic Descendant of King David.
In evitably, then, a war against Jehovah and his restored remnant of spiritual Israel means also war against Jehovah’s Messianic King, now installed as King in the heavens over the restored remnant of spiritual Israel.
Re, chap 17, portrays prophetically the order of events: before the political “image” that is now the United Nations(the Eighth World Power) “goes off into destruction,” member nations of it destroy the great religious “harlot,” Babylon the Great.
All the political rulers are pictured by the ten horns of this beastly “image,” and regarding these Revelation 17:12-14 predicts:
And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings,who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast[ the Eighth World Power]. These have one thought and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. These will battle with the Lamb [the once sacrificed Jesus Christ], but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them.
ALSO, THOSE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL WITH HIM WILL DO SO.” cOMPARE rE 19″11-21
Max,
Thank you for your usual lenthy and all over the ‘map’ response (pun intended… since you referenced some physical location where a battle may be a part of.)
You wrote, “Is anybody still questioning me on that one?” Yes, I would question this, and why. You keep mentioning the Pastor and his belief on the Gentile Times, yet as I showed in my post earlier today his belief on the Gentile Times did not originate with him, nor is it similar to what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach today. Just because someone points at the same prophetic year or even the same verses does not prove that they taught the same thing about it.
Max, I would like to see some comments on my historical quotations in reply to this thinking if you would be so kind.
I am wondering if you are reading what I have written?
I ask this because you said, “I need to know if you believe Pastor Russells 1914 date as to the appointed times of the nations or Gentiles?”
Have you not read anything written presiously? I believe that you yourself do NOT believe what the Pastor (or Barbour based on the quotes I provided previously from the Three Worlds) about the Gentile Times.
Again, I have also written about Pastor Russell and where his chronological and time prophetic views originated from in another periodical called “Beauties of the Truth” found here —
http://www.beautiesofthetruth.org/Archive/Library/Doctrine/Mags/Bot/90s/2004aug.PDF
Again, the other historical article I wrote for “The Herald of Christ’s Kingdom” is here —
http://www.heraldmag.org/2006_history/06history_5.htm
I would be interested in your comments.
Max, I do not see your comments and kind
“The Bible says there are other sheep. John 10:16, a comment came back that was the Jew and Gentile. Why a Bible Student might want to take that back.”
Why not? Instead of pointing to the context of John 10 you start with philosophy and the only three ‘possible’ answers you saw. Be careful.
Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
A quick review of the context should interpret for us. Lets see. In the context of John 10 Jesus is replying to the Pharisees. Jews. This parable is a direct response to the Pharisees from Chapter 9 where . . ..
“Jesus said to them, “if you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘we see,’ your sin remains. truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep . . . ” John 9:40-10:1.
Jesus was telling these Jews who believed they were the chosen ones that they would NOT be the only ones. The ‘door’ as it were, would now be opened to the Gentiles.
You then proceed to state that “lives are at stake.”
This is an interested response since the passages I have in question with you are about the UNBELIEVING Jews, and UNBELIEVING nations who survive (or not) Armageddon. It would appear from these Scriptures and many others that lives are not ‘at state’ until AFTER Armageddon, when the judgment against the nations by Jesus and his Bride will begin, until AFTER Armageddon, when these UNBELIEVING nations, Jew and Gentile, have the spirit poured out on them and are given opportunity at repentance.
Max, thank you for looking a little at Ezekiel 38.
You wrote, “The unjustified attack of Gog and his militarized hordes is made on a spiritually properous people who have a God-given right to a place on earth and full freedom for the worship of the living and true God. This fact provokes the Sovereign Lord Jehovah to a feeling of outrage, hot indignation. In rebuke to such devilish conduct he will speak with expressions that bespeak control by Him as Creator over the earth and all the forces of earth’s environment.”
Max, I am not sure if you Remember since my original post on this context was so long ago and you have touched on multiples upon multiples of topics since then. The context of Ezekiel is JUST like that of Zechariah’s. The Spirit is poured out on Israel only AFTER the battle of Armageddon. This would again identify that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do NOT have the holy spirit if they are Israel in the context and Armageddon has not come. See Ezekiel 38:21-29.
How do Jehovah’s Witnesses fit into this picture?
Thank you also for your (very) short comments on Joel. Do not forget that the context of Joel is similar (which also speaks of the northern army coming against them to battle. The result of the battle in Joel is also similar to Ezekiel and Zechariah’s…it is so that Israel will recognize their sins, they will repent, and the Lord will deliver them AND all of the nations that came against them to battle will also have opportunity to recognize and worship Jehovah.
See Joel 2:20, 27, 32 which shows that the Israel in that context is in unbelief until after the battle of Armageddon and the pouring out of the spirit on all. How do Jehovah’s Witnesses fit into this picture? Is the battle of Armageddon completely over? Do you claim to have the Holy Spirit? Has it been poured out on believer and unbeliever alike?
Finally Max, you also spoke about Matthew 24 (again) suggesting that annointed Christians would somehow be in Armageddon. Does it not refer rather to a period of time AFTER the 144,000 are already in heaven? Are they not the ones who with Christ will intervene at the right time?
If the context were the way you suggest, Would not this contractdict passages like Romans 11 (and others) which state that the fulness of the Gentiles must be COMPLETE, that the anointed Christians must be in heaven BEFORE the blindness of ISrael could be removed.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25)
Do you believe this fulness of Gentiles is fulfilled?
To Humbleman and Jaquelin and the 5,000. Your comments have opened a large door. So I will start with Humble man. When the verses were given showing the times of the Gentiles, a question was rasied on Da 4:16,23,25,32. Today it was shown the Pastor used those same verses. Is anybody still questioning me on that one?
The Bible says there are other sheep. John 10:16, a comment came back that was the Jew and Gentile.
Why a Bible Student might want to take that back. Pastor refered to that other group as being separate. He said they would not be rulers with Christ Jesus as kings and priests.
Now lets for the sake of argument, use logic.
WHAT FITS? Ask yourself this. Which one area do you think Jehovah would use to collect the 144,000?
a. the 1656 years before the flood.
b. after the flood to the birth of Christ.
c. Or after Jesus death.
No matter which road you are on. Mt 7:13,14. It is my hope that your mind can reason that it would be after Jesus death. Why? Lets stamp it with God’s Word. Re 1:1″which God gave him.” God Jehovah gave this revelation to Jesus. 1:17,”I am the First and the Last.” Jesus was the first perfect person to die perfect and he was the last that would die and be raised to immortality. 18,”and the living one; I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” If anyone disarees please show me what other man was perfect and has this happen. Only know of one mad Adam, BUT he did not remain perfect. And note what he has,”I have the keys of death and Hades.” Again I chanllenge anyone who can show me that someone else has those keys.
Lets use logic again. After Adan and Eve sinned, what did Jehovah do? He made arrangements to redemn mandkind. Ge 3:15 way before the flood. Shortly after the flood he showed his interest in mankind. Ge 22:18 Ps 37:10,11,29 “will reside forever upon it.” These are people inhabiting the earth. Is 45:18 So when Humbleman says the Bible does not speak of a different group we want to remember this. God’s Word! How did Jesus feel about this? Mt 5:5,”Happy are the mild tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
Our next logic test.
a. Pick the order that would make sense.
1. people who will live on earth, then the chosen or elect during the dark ages, the the chosen or elect in the end tim.
2. the chosen or elect first, then the earthy subjects during the dark ages, then the chosen or elect during the last days.
3. The chosen or elect first, then also during the dark ages and right into the end times, with a group of nations wanting to live forever on earth and the two make one flock.
Logically the third one makes the most sense. Again lets have God’s Word stamp it. Jehovah to his Son and written by Matthew. Mat 24:21,”There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” Give one solid reason besides the logical order, that Pastor Russell would not know about the other sheep correctly, and who they were.
The time he was living in was a time of gathering the chosen or elect. But consider when the apostle was asked about those coming through the great tribulation as to who they were. He did not know! Re 7:14 So if Jehovah said build be a hous then a garage but you died before the house was done, why could not Jehovah replace that one and finish the house. Then start on the garage. And he died before it is done and Jehovah keeps putting some one there to finish the work.
I hope you all find this easy to understand. Why? Because lives are at stake.
I certainly respect all who are in fear or uncomforable to share here. The fact some are in fear for their lives shows we are deep in the end. But those who contribute, I need to know if you believe Pastor Russells 1914 date as to the appointed times of the nations or Gentiles?
My reason is, if you don’t understand the Pastor’s time frame. Your questions become meaningless to and person deciding to be a Bible Student. The JW,s obviously believe it or they aren’t really JW,s. It is so clear, just like no hell fire, or trinity.
Thank you for falling along and the last stamp. Right after 21 Jesus said,”the days of that tribulation would be cut short” on account of the chosen ones,” the remmant of annointed Christians still on earth. 22
Jehovah will not allow this destructive attack on false religion to wipe out annointed Christians and their other sheep companions.
The reason for this post is to ask yourself. You have a choice. Believe Bible Students who can pick and choose what they believe and don’t have a great crowd. Or believe JW,s who have some annointed but a large crowd which no man can number worshipping together.
97 years in power and JW,s are still announcing that Kingdom
Max i admire the zeal of the witnesses. but what i don’t agree with is the two class Christians they preach. the scriptures only hold out one baptism eph 4. your governing body say only the 144000 are baptised in to Christ death. ROM 6. so where does this leave every body else ?? it leaves them being baptised with a baptism that brings them in association with God spirit directed organization. that baptism Max does not exist in scripture so its a false Gospel your bringing people to a earthly hope when you should be listening to what the scriptures say and be gathering the bride of Christ.
Now page 77 of the three worlds;
Lu 21:24 Ez 21:25 78, DA 2:37; 2:44 p. 79 Da 7:”3-8 p. 81 Ez 4:1-8 Da 9:24; Re 12:6; Lev 26:18 REPEATED FOUR TIMES IN Da 4:16,23,25,32 so in Lev 26, it is four times repeated 18,21,24,28. Seven prophetic years, a day for a year, represent 2,520 years, The authority for using a day to represent a year, comes from God himself; that is, He has made the application.”
He goes on to explain more, but it is a fact he new off it in 1877 C.E.
So what problems does this cause?
1. If you don’t believe The kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ did not happen in 1914 C.E. then you won’t understand when I explain the verses to you. To illustrate. What do babies do first? Learn to stand or learn to walk? I think stand holding unto something. Then they walk and fall. But with lots of trys they start standing and then walking, maybe a little wobbly but they eventuaaly do it. So I need you to accept what C.T.R. taught in that 1914 would be the kingom of our Lord, and his Christ.
Then Ze 14:4 and 5 make easy sense. Mountain, then mountains. Not by hand, but out of the 1 mountain now 2. Da 2:33-45 So 2 mountains, 2 of Jehovah’s feet. His origanal and the 1 he put His Son over but still looks out for him, so he will eventually may be all. 1 Cor 15:28
Let me know if anyone believes that the kingships happened in 1914.
Also in that book he has info on CHRIST presence or parosia. Let me know if you want info.
“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy….’Look out for1914!’ has been the cty of the hundreds of travelling evangelists, who, representing this strange creed[associated with Russell], have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.'”-“The World Magazine,” August 30, 1914.
A then leading newspaper.
97 years in power and JW,s are still announcing that Kingdom.
Hi Max as you know Rutherford changed many beliefs of the bible students. are you saying he left the faith and was handed over to satan ??
You might say sometimes JW,S fALL AWAY TO DIFFERENT BELIEFS. True, Paul warned us about that. 1 Tim 1:19,”Holding the faith in good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning their faith
To Ken and Jeff;
I think you are the only two who came for the ride. The Three Worlds published by N.H.Barbour.
c.t.russell 1877 I don’t think C.T.R. would have his name there if he was not involved. p 3,”will prove susceptible of perfect organization, every part taking its true place.”
p 6,”and as a ressurrection does not commence until the end of this gospel age; and does not end until the thousand years are finished.”
p.7,”In Re 11:15-18, we learn that when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord,”The nations were angry,b and thy wrath has come.”
What can happen to a bible reader if they don’t believe in the Lord’s return in 1914? P. 10,”A sin Jesus says “Can be forgiven, neither in this world; neither in the world to come.”
So picture what happened before and after 1914 came. Gruups of Bible Students left the group and went off to their own beliefs. 1907 or 1909 have a large number leave. And after 1914, they left in droves, and started many groups which withered and died. Today many are still around. Some beleve in the end of the Gentiles, others don’t.
Now as to how many new the knpwledge back then, man does not know, but The Pastor did say,”and thus be brought to the knowledge of the truth, if such sin willfully, there remaineth no more sacreifice for sin, but a fearful looking for of fiery indignation.” He 6:4-6; 10:26,27. The last sentence on p 10,”before they can “fall away” into that fearful condition for which “there remaineth no more sacrifice.”
Did they have a vision about 1914? p. 19,”And are not the nations preparing for war, as never before? p. 20,”they do not become “the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ,” until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” He shows on the bottom of page, Babylon,Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome. What he did not know at that time was, that the anglo-American was the seventh world power, and that the eight made up all of them is the U.N.
To show the Pastoe believed in 1914 read, p.21,”Gentile times began when the diadem was removed from the head of Zedikiah.” “till He come whose right it is, and I will give it to him.” EZ 21.
Hello Max, The statistics that I posted on ask Jacqueline for you brothers benefit. Humbleman and Jeff are among over 4,000, from over 124 lands that have come along for the ride. Remember the target audience of this site. Who are they? Persons afraid to reveil themselves for fear of retaliation. You brothers, others and I often say and ask the questions for the majority. Our dear brothers checking in everyday can look at both or all arguments and make a discision for themselves. Br. Peter, knowing the almost 5,000 visits to this site makes sure there is new and up to date information for the 66% new ones we get each month. Many now have been able to see the JW side of the argument and an answer without having to ask it themselves. I started this conversation on thew great crowd and armageddon because I know that is what is paramount on the minds of the witnesses. Yes I am an antagonist, I stepped out and let you brothers (more skilled) present the bible’s view plus some interesting arguments. BTW at lest 2 of the visitors have been the watchtower bible and tract society. So, in closing you have many watchers. Keep up the work in the name of Jesus, Jacqueline
Hi Max,
FYI, I’m feeling a lot better today. Just a few thoughts on the Three Worlds and Gentile Times you might not have known. Historically most know that Barbour wrote the Three Worlds and C.T. Russell assisted by financing it. Barbour was nearly broke at the time and Russell thought that publishing Barbour’s prophetic ideas in a single book might help spread the message. The two men’s writing styles are also different.
Until he met Barbour, chronological and prophetic time measurements did not interest him.
From my article I posted a link to earlier, I wrote, “Concerning this magazine, Pastor Russell wrote that he “learned from its contents that the Editor was beginning to get his eyes open on the subjects that for some years had so greatly rejoiced our hearts … that the object of our Lord’s return is not to destroy, but to bless all the families of the earth” (Reprints, p. 3822).
This was his greatest interest and since he thought Barbour also shared the same thinking he contacted him. Barbour seemed to connect the thoughts that Storrs was advocating regarding the salvation of unbelievers AFTER the return of Christ (a doctrine JWs no longer access). Since the three men, Barbour, Russell, and Paton would part their ways years later, Barbour probably was advocating more of a universalist concept like his partner J. H. Paton. who founded a Universalist church that still exists in Almont Michigan today.
What you appear to misunderstand regarding the Gentile Times prophecy is that both Barbour and Russell had taught that its completion would signal the return of the Jews to their land. The prophecy was after all about the Gentile nations (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc…) that would rule over Israel until the last days. Its ending would restore the Jews as a nation.
This fulfilled prophecy is another evidence that Scripture is true!
Barbour wrote, “It is true the nationality of the Jews was maintained until after the first advent of Christ, for such was the prophecy, “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a law-giver, [from his loins, lit.], until shiloh come, and unto him shall be the gathering of the people,” (Gen. 49:10). And although Jerusalem was in the hands of the Gentiles, and had been troden down by them since its total overthrow by Nebuchadnezzar, it was not entirely destroyed until after the advent of Christ.” (Page 78)
“The seventy years captivity ended in the first year of Cyrus, which was B. C. 536. They therefore commenced seventy years before, or B. C. 606. Hence, it was in B. C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B. C. 606, will end in A. D. 1914, or forty years from 1874; and this forty years upon which we have now entered is to be such “a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation.” And during this forty years, the kingdom of God is to be set up, (but not in the flesh, “the natural first and afterwards the spiritual),” the Jews are to be restored….” (Page 83).
The Jews were restored to their land as a specific outcome of the first world war. The Balfour Declaration that came out of WW1 as a promise for a homeland for the Jews was not completely fulfilled until after WW2, …the continuation of WW1.
The Scripture predicted the return of the Jews as a nation after the ending of the Gentile Times, and so did Russell, Barbour, and many others who pointed to this prophecy decades before these men did as well. Barbour found this idea in a four volume commentary on Revelation calld Horae Apocalypticae published between the 1840s and 1850s in England.
Another quote from page 84, “After the saints are taken, and the gospel, dispensation ended; the “fullness of the Gentiles,” who are to compose the bride of Christ, having come in, blindness is to be turned away from the Jews. “And God will set his hand a second time to restore the remnant of Israel.” But after this remnant, that is, the living Jews of this generation have made their way back to Palestine, and the “waters of the Euphrates are dried up,” that is, the christian nations of Europe , the kings of the East, and of the whole world are to be brought up to Jerusalem to battle, and the city is to be taken, as described in Zech. 14. Then the Lord shall appear w ith all his saints, and his feet shall stand upon the mount of Olives, which is a-half mile to the east of Jerusalem, and overlooks the city. And the Jews, who have been worsted in the battle, will cry out, “Lo, this is our God! we have waited for him, and he will save us.”
This idea of the return of the Jews as a nation is definitely not what the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach today.
I wished there was an ‘edit’ button on this thing.
I ended with the thought, “This idea of the return of the Jews as a nation is definitely not what the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach today.”
This is one reason I pointed to the Scriptures about the return of the Jews to their land in unbelief. These are the Scriptures I posted earlier which prove that God has a plan for them in their current unbelief and that after Armageddon the spirit will be poured out on their nation and they will become believers….
…to simply my thought. If Israel is a spiritual Israel, and if the contexts of the Scriptures I quoted (and many others) prove that the spirit is not poured out on Israel until AFTER Armageddon, then anyone who claims to be spiritual Israel today would be unbelievers AND without the Spirit until Armageddon is over.
I am trying to simplify Max because you are all over the place. This is why I posted the Scriptures several times that have immediate bearing on this so that an answer could be provided.
Thank you again for your kindness, your patience, and I look forward to your response.
Max,
Lets narrow the focus a bit, ok?
Back to the main subject at hand. Here are those passages again —
Zechariah 12:9-10 (all of chapter 12)
Zechariah 14:9, 15 (all of chapter 14)
Ezekiel 38:21-29 (all of Ezekiel 38 – 39)
Joel 2:20, 27, 32 (Joel 2 and 3)
Romans 11:25 (all of Romans 11)