INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Jacqulin;
Thank you for your imput. Again it must be stated. Is 2:4,Jehovah will teach them to learn war no more. Re 13:10, those who kill with the sword, will die by the sword.You challenge me to check internet on Israel. They have a military army and continue to learn war. JW,s have many in prisons for not going to war, refuseing to do so.
Forget about WT brainwashing me, this is my own research.
Thise two verses put you and I at the parable of the rich man and Lazurus.
That nation of Israel is also a member of the eighth one in Re 17, one more reason for it not to receive Jehovah’s blessing.
Read Nehemiah 9:25-27, but if you think that was bad they murdered God’s own son.
Them returning to land is meaningless. There are more people moving to new lands now then ever. And if you were a Jew living in poverty in Russia and they hate you, wouldn’t you take a free ride out? Do they have problems there? Yes they do! Not going to mention all the bad things that go against the bible.
Max, not learning war anymore will be fulfilled in the millenium. The Watchtower society was an NGO in the united nations. Check their website, they had a letter up only for JW because many couldn’t believe it. They got out after being revealed.
I might be wrong but never has a nation been disspersed over the whole world and come back to a given land intact as a nation. We know the Jews have done that.
The GB has recently written warlike articles encouraging the elders to behave like Jehu in the killing of apostates. (article “War of Worlds” on this site). They allso will fight in court against their own members. (They lost case with me defendant confessed and their lawyers were proven liars. It was war.)
The religious leaders demanding that he be delivered up, yet Jesus died for the Jews as well as all men. A lot of people are anti-semetic Max. I agree they are not in God’s favor now but scriptures show they as well as all men will be given an opportunity to accept Christ. Some Jews and others won’t, some will. GB has basically replaced Christ with themselves as co-savior. They say you can’t get to God if you don’t accept his earthly org.They have moor additional laws than the law code. Most adherents will not question their doctrine, they learn it and repeat it like the catechism.
About Russia, thank you for admitting that the JW are not the only religions suffering in Russia. For if you read their goofle alert you would think they are the only religion that is receiving persecution in Russia. Also they had to be removed from some of the holocaust museums because they were no different than anyone else that suffered other than the Jews. Many Germans and others died because they refused to kill Jews. Rutherford however, wrote a letter to Hitler, I am not sure of the exact content although I have seen a copy but it was favorable to Hitler.
So, I guess I am saying Max there is just more sides to a coin sometimes than 2. Yow seem to hold to what you believe and the BS do not have an agenda to change you or any other’s belief. We present the facts from the Bible to inform brothers.
We accept the fact Jesus said in Matt.28:19,20 it is to be a witness to the nations about Jesus. Baptizing those that accept in his name and Jehovah. Almost the whole audience that is reading this site are persons that know Jehovah witness dogma better than the average JW. Many having experience on a very high level of over 50 yrs or more. So what we present here is an unbiased presentation of what others also have to say. We don’t try to have large numbers for in Millenium world conversion will come, not now. Also this has nothing to do with subject but the claimed 7 million includes the 40,000-60,000 disfellowshipped every year. The millions that have just walked away. This web-site is for those millions that want to know what went wrong? I lived during the change over in the South and know why certain doctrines were changed.
I don’t feel you are brainwashed. JW is a high control group, thought is limited and fear and intimidation is the factor not brainwashing. It’s structure is more like the Catholic Church and the Sanhedrin of Jesus’ day.
In conclusion Max, enjoy the site. You are putting up a defence for what you believe. Most on this site have ventured here to hear other thoughts and what the religion believe prior to Br. Rutherford break a way and creation of a new religion in 1931. In Christ. Jacqueline
Max,
I am really trying to be patient with you but as always you are all over the map instead of answering specific questions requested of you.
Max said that if the nation of Israel would return to their land, “you will have to somehow perform a major miracle.”
I wouldn’t have to perform that major miracle. Jehovah has done it!
However, …just to remind you of the Scriptures posted. They all showed how Israel is blinded, unbelieving, and without the spirit of God BEFORE the battle of Armageddon. Is the the group you are identifying yourself with?
Max, you quoted a passage, Isaiah 2:2-3 which proves nothing more than what we already agree on, all nations will come to the mountain or kingdom of God.
After this you proceeded into philosophy regarding Hagar stating that it represented fleshly Israel. Be careful Max, there is no Scripture which says that Hagar represents this. Your next philosphy attempted to suggest that Jehovah’s Witnesses fufil this AFTER Armageddon picture BEFORE Armageddon happens. Is that what you are suggesting? Again, if this is true, are you identifying yourself as the Israel without belief, spirit, and blinded?
You then Suggest that Jesus taught this by pointing to Matthew 24:38. I think you pointed to the wrong passage because you actually quoted Matthew 23:38. However the parable of the Fig Tree blossoming in Matthew 24 shows they were not to be desolate forever. Israel was always represented by the fig tree (Hosea 9:10). The blossoming of a desolate fig tree would show that a desolate nation would blossom, or come to life yet again. You simply can not deny that this has come to pass in recent history.
You quoted a passage from Jeremiah suggesting it was about Israel forever, yet did not read the context which shows that it was about the Babylon of its time.
Jeremiah 22:
24 “as I live,” declares the LORD, “even though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of judah were a signet ring on my right hand, yet I would pull you off;
25 and I will give you over into the hand of those who are seeking your life, yes, into the hand of those whom you dread, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
Just like the passage you quoted in Hosea, this was fulfilled in the past. Israel was ‘desolated’, and they were restored as a nation. Amazingly, God predicted their desolation and their restoration.
Max, quoting verses without consideration of their contexts proves nothing more than you really aren’t sure what is in the context of the passages you are quoted. This is true of the passages above and the one in Luke which I have mentioned a few times.
Luke 21:20,”Futhermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” Jesus word’s came true didn’t they.
Read down a few verses and Israel’s restoration from desolation is stated by Jesus himself!
Luke 21:24 – “Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
Instead of resorting to philosophy, lets look at the passage and see if it has been fulfilled or not.
Jerusalem was trampled – Check. After Jesus death the Romans brought it to the ground and it was in control of the Gentile nations as Jesus predicted until … the end of the Gentile Times.
Gentile Times have ended – Check. The ending of the Gentile Times in WW1 resulted in Israel’s restoration as a nation. Ask me about the incredible fulfilments in history on this one.
Jerusalem is back in the hands of Israel? – Check, this happened in 1967.
It seems fulfilled to me.
I’m not sure why you quoted Ezekiel 38:21-23.
Was this a response to the rest of the context of Ezekiel 38 that I quoted?
It appears to me that when there is a verse that speaks good things about Israel, you apply it to yourself, and when there is something bad about Israel spoken, you apply it to everyone else? Am I correct in this understanding?
You quoted alot of verses between Ezekiel 38 and 39 but skipped over the question I’ve been asking about that context (again).
I will repeat some of my questions here (yet again)….
Max, I am not sure if you Remember since my original post on this context was so long ago and you have touched on multiples upon multiples of topics since then. The context of Ezekiel is JUST like that of Zechariah’s. The Spirit is poured out on Israel only AFTER the battle of Armageddon. This would again identify that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do NOT have the holy spirit if they are Israel in the context and Armageddon has not come. See Ezekiel 38:21-29.
How do Jehovah’s Witnesses fit into this picture?
Thank you also for your (very) short comments on Joel. Do not forget that the context of Joel is similar (which also speaks of the northern army coming against them to battle. The result of the battle in Joel is also similar to Ezekiel and Zechariah’s…it is so that Israel will recognize their sins, they will repent, and the Lord will deliver them AND all of the nations that came against them to battle will also have opportunity to recognize and worship Jehovah.
See Joel 2:20, 27, 32 which shows that the Israel in that context is in unbelief until after the battle of Armageddon and the pouring out of the spirit on all. How do Jehovah’s Witnesses fit into this picture? Is the battle of Armageddon completely over? Do you claim to have the Holy Spirit? Has it been poured out on believer and unbeliever alike?
Finally Max, you also spoke about Matthew 24 (again) suggesting that annointed Christians would somehow be in Armageddon. Does it not refer rather to a period of time AFTER the 144,000 are already in heaven? Are they not the ones who with Christ will intervene at the right time?
If the context were the way you suggest, Would not this contractdict passages like Romans 11 (and others) which state that the fulness of the Gentiles must be COMPLETE, that the anointed Christians must be in heaven BEFORE the blindness of ISrael could be removed.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25)
Do you believe this fulness of Gentiles is fulfilled?
Max,
(Well…I planned to head to bed a while ago but thought I should post this as it seemed important for the discussion and shouldn’t be held back. Here is hoping you aren’t in too much pain from your trip to the dentist.)
Lets try to bring this all back into focus again…. I’ll comment on a couple of the contexts in Joel and Zechariah that I mentioned to you before and from which I am still looking for a response.
I would also like to state why I believe there is a serious error in current Jehovah’s Witness theology in regards to this pourint out of the Spirit.
At some point in the past the WT went from believing the spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh AFTER Armageddon (as several of the Scriptures I’ve pointed to state), to believing it would be poured out on ALL flesh BEFORE Armagedon.
While researching how and when this doctrine changed, I found the article where this happened and find the reason why it changed interesting.
In the article entitled, “The Holy Spirit Poured Out” written in the November 15, 1925 Watchtower, we start to see the early changes.
“It will be before “the great and terrible day of the Lord come”. “In those days,” instead of meaning in the Gospel’Age, clearly means within that period of time in which the Lord is pouring out his spirit upon all flesh of the house of Israel.” page 341
This was a beginning of shifting the hope of the gospel for the salvation of the unbelieving world, to the salvation of only the Jehovah’s Witnesses, for if the spirit was to be poured out on JUST a ‘spiritual’ Israel, then the prophecies which speak of the spirit being poured out an unbelieving Israel and the world being converted would need to be re-evaluated.
“The facts show that there has been a greater witness to the message of the Lord since than prior to 1918.” November 15, 1925 WT, p342.
If Russell died in 1916, how were the doctrines changing so quickly that by the 1930’s it was an entirely new religion with very little similarities to what came before? This article appears to have a part of the answer. It was easy for the doctrines to change so fast because by 1924 nearly half of those who attended the conventions were new since 1918.
“At the SOCIETY’s convention in Columbus in 1924, in response to a question, fully half of that great multitude stated they had come to a knowledge of the truth since 1918. page 342
Another quote — “It was particularly noticed that amongst those was a great number of young men and young women.”
Somehow this was supposed to be a fulfillment of the ‘young men and women’ who dreamed dreams and saw visions in the prophecy of Joel?
Some of these interpretations are a bit silly by today’s standards, but much of what the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe today is based on imaginations like this.
Rutherford and friends were stretching to try to find some prophetic fulfillments which would ‘prove’ that God had chosen them as his channel. It appears they only stretched themselves selfishly and egotistically into the prophecies and pushed everyone else out leaving salvation for only them.
The 1926 W.T. page 143 states this much clearer — “A careful study of the article in the Watch Tower will demonstrate that the Holy Spirit being poured out does not include the millions class who expect to live on the earth. The Holy spirit will not be poured out on anyone during the Millennial Age.”
The context of Joel is clear. This happens in “the great and awesome day of the LORD” and similarly as the context in Zechariah 14 states, unbelievers are given opportunity for salvation AFTER the battle of Armageddon.
Verse 32 “It will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.”
Verse 33 states that the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem will be restored. When? Not before Armageddon, but after it as the context clearly states.
Zechariah 14 states the same….
verse 14 judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
…. 16 ¶ then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.
17 and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. . . .
The Scriptural doctrine of salvation and the opportunites for that salvation, even AFTER the day of the Lord for unbelievers is amazing!
These articles I mentioned above were a beginning of the discarding of the Scriptures Ransom for All and for which Russell had separated from Barbour. Now Rutherford was beginning to deny the Ransom and head the same way as Barbour.
Max i agree with you those who are not Christians will not be sons of God until the end of the 1000 years. but the point i was making is. you said that those not written in the book of life at Armageddon would be destroyed. and according to the jws only the 144000 are in the book of life. who ever told you there are Christians who are called and some that arent. did you not see what the scripture says.
Romans 8
12So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live in accord with the flesh; 13for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will live. 14For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.
1 john 5
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. 2By this we gain the knowledge that we are loving the children of God, when we are loving God and doing his commandments
Max please don’t let any man rob you Of Jehovah Gods grace. if your looking to the only true God and his dear son for salvation. and you are led by holy spirit then YOU are a son of God. trust the bible my friend not doctrines of men.
1 Corinthians 7
23YOU were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24In whatever condition each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it associated with God.
Thank you for your kind words and please continue to give feed back. I was rasied hearing people say, come on the more the marryer. Truly I can see why you think Israel in the flesh, or as the nation, is talked about. But you will have to somehow perform a major miracle.
Isaiah says,”And it must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills, and to it all nations must stream.” 2:2
1.The spiritual nation of Israel has this happening. The fleshly Israel pictured by Hagar does not.
2.Verse 3,”he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” Anyone who looks knows we are continually learning about our God and how to walk in his ways.
3.Verse 4,”neither will they learn war anymore.”JW,s have and have had thousands in prison as we speak because they will not go to war. The flesly Israel has no such way. They all go to war there.
Plus the big note, nations streaming to spiritual Israel but not fleshly Israel.
One can see that Jesus was right. His words,”Look! Your house is abbandoned to you.” Mt 24:38 1 Ki 9:7,”I will also cut Israel off from upon the surfice ofthe ground that I have given them; and the house that I have sanctified to my name I shall throw away from before me.”
Jesus also said,”This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken fromyou and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” Mt 21:43
Jer 22:5,”‘But if you will not obey these words, by myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that this house will become a mere devastated place.” Which it has for a long time.
Hosea 9:15,”All their badness was in Gilgal, for there I had to hate them. On account of the evil of their dealings I shall drive them away from my own house.”
Luke 21:20,”Futhermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” Jesus word’s came true didn’t they.
When that happened in 70 C.E. Jehovah’s words came true. Duet 28:68,”And Jehovah will certainly bring you back to Egypt by ships by the way about which I have said to you, ‘You will never see it again,’ and you will have to sell yourselves there to your enimies as slave men and maidservants, but there will be no buyer.”
Check it out. Of the 97,000 who did not get killed this took place for a bunch of them.
Remember learn war no more from people of nations coming to spiritual Israel? Remember fleshly Israel is still doing wars and learning it.
Re 13:10,”If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword.”
I can’t make it any clearer then that.
Peace!!!
Max, I detect you might be hearing impaired. You can’t be sight impaired or else I would not want to tangle with you when you could see all the paperwork. (:) But I am talking to you as a sister and out of love. Others have used all scripture.
I agree that all the scriptures you mentioned happened to Israel. They were indeed cutoff from the land that they had as an inheritance. They also never received all the land promised but will in the furture. The scriptures that have been sited for over a week now has shown where Israel would return to their land. They are actually doing just that. It is somewhat of a miracle I will admit. For never has a nation been dispersed and put all over the world and returned as an intact nation! Never in the history of the world has this happened. In fact nations have tried to rebuild this land but it would not grow or live for them. I saw a documentary on TV that showed the land seems to be connected to the inhabitants, for it is irrigated and grows for the Jews! A miracle you say? If you fit the scriptures to the Jewish nation it will make sense. If you insert Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses you have to contort yourself and your words to make it fit.
Max, you notice I am not using a lot of scriptures here. Why? Because you dear brothers have quoted them all and the observers (over 209 a day and 4,693 in the last month) have read them all and can reread posts. Max the society in November 2007 KM said it does not encourage private or group researching as they have done it for you. (like the Pope hierarchy.) But if you will transgress a little and go on the internet and search about Israel. You will see it is repatriating. The scriptures will make sense to you.
Also, (using logic not scripture if I may) I never bought into the society saying the nation of Israel was cast off forever. I was a full fledged witness then and had no problem with them. I once asked myself would Abraham have thought that Jesus was the seed and the 144,000 when God made a promise to favor all his descendants? Yes he most certainly would have accepted a Spirit Begotton one as the only ones that could bless the entire world of mankind. But, would he also expect that his offspring would be there when he rose as an ancient worthy, a prince in the earth? (the society teaches that present day elders will be princes also, another insertion.) They were friends and he would have believed or understood this promise to also mean his progeny would be saved. As it stands now Israel has not accepted Jesus. ALL MUST ACCEPT HIM to be saved for there is not another name under heaven for salvation. Heb. 10:24.25 showed they had a habit of going back to the ways of the law and was not assembling together as Christians with the new congregation. They were informed at Heb.6:4-6 that if they accepted Christ but kept leaving going back to the law that they were impaling Christ anew and each time they did it after learning of Christ they cut off the only open way for their sins to be forgiven. So that’s why he told them not to forsake assembling, not as a ritual but to upbuild each other. So I ask, did Jehovah break his promise to Abraham as he would have logically understood it?
The society has an agenda in ursurping the Jews, in fact most nations are anti-semetic. To self certify themselves as the Israel of God puts them at a higher level in the minds of their followers. I say their followers, because they are “instead of Christ”. By their own admission they say you can’t get to God if you don’t accept them.
Max, if indeed you are being called to Christ just be forewarned it will be at a price. But as you say come along for the ride. And it shall be a ride indeed. Jacqueline
Please start by reading Ezekiel 39:1-4 No decent burial with military honors is promised for the slain hordes under Gog as their “head chieftan.” For carrion birds and beasts they will lie exposed for food. With reference to their inglorious outcome we read further: “‘Upon the surface of the field you will fall, for I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” Ez 39:5 Gog’s fallen hordes will never return home in triumph!
What, though, about the location where this vicious God-defying attack on Jehovah’s restored people was conceived, up there in “the remotest parts of the north”? This is the invisible realm of Satan the Devil and his demons at the earth since their being ousted from heaven after being defeated in the war in heaven. This debased location at the earth is a menace, a continuous threat to mankind and a sorce of woe to earth and sea, and it must be done away with.
The unseen base of operations from which Gog lauches his attack upon spiritual “Israel of God” is the “land of Magog.” This “land” must come in for attention after Gog’s militant forces on earth have been crushed in defeat. Thus the unseen inhabitants of the “land of Magog” must witness first the disastrous defeat of the devilish campaign against the spiritually prosperous worshippers of Jehovah. The nations and peoples whom Gog allies with himself in the campaign gain, not glory, but only undying shame, out of this impious campaign. ALL PERSONS who might yet get sucked into that coming campaign against Jehovah’s Christian witnesses would now do well to consider what He says by Ezekiel to the Gog by whom they might get recruited.
For STARTERS Jeff, please read Eze 38:21-23.
At that point the battle field of Har-Magedon is reached. The war of the great day is on. The blood of Jehovah’s Christian witnesses they are anxious to spill, but it will be their own blood that they will drink by the violent loss of their own lives.
Panic-world panic outside the ranks of Jehovah’s Christian witnesses! Gog’s hordes will be thrown into confusion. Instead of keeping united to strike down Jehovah’s worshippers as their victims, they will turn their swords against their own ranks, brother warrior against brother warior, not religionst against religionst, but radical against radical, Communist against Communist, anarchist against anarchist, nihilist against nihilist. Jehovah will be vindicated.
Almighty God thus becomes very much alive to all the nations and peoples under Gog’s woeful control. The great trib gets rid of all God ignoring people. But a united great crowd of true worshippers is saved.
Max where in the bible is Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses mentioned by name? Israel has sinned against God but will be forgiven. When we were studying the Isaiah book I realized if JW were Israel then it was not the true religion for this Israel you apply to them is not in a favored position now. That is why I started searching. A Baptist told me it was natural Israel, she couldn’t believe I didn’t know that. So in that instance the Baptist had the truth. JW organization adherents can’t be convinced by mere scripture, it takes Holy Spirit to open their heart. Adherents will copy and paste watchtower articles and repeat what has been indoctrinated in them from infancy or by the read paragraph then comment on paragraph method. You probably will only accept the truth in millenium, which is good of itself for all the earth will have the true answers.Luther used the printing press to expose the Catholic Church. Now the internet is where the doctrines of JW goes to rest. Max some of what you say however is not what the society teaches. They now teach that Judgement Day is Millenium. One will expect as older ones die out the scriptures that they now apply to armageddom will be applied to millenium. Br. Raymond Franz had letters in his books “Crisis of Conscience” and “In Search of Christian Freedom” where they admitted they would do it over a 20-30 yr. period so as not to upset the faithful. So if you wait long enough you will see them change the doctrine to put the scripture in the correct time period. I probably will just listen from here on out but I have enjoyed your spirited discussions and will continue to do so. Good day my brother and may Holy Spirit open your eyes, because you are searching. Your comments on this site indicate you are trying to convince yourself. I am so glad you are not afraid to come on the internet and speak out. Perhaps Christ is calling you my brother. It’s strange but that is the way it starts Max. Jesus can see if he teaches you something and gives a command, you will not accept any other reasoning. Godspeed. Your sister Jacqueline
Everything went well at dentist and I will start with Humbleman. Hi Humbleman. As regards when those who are not called, are granted everlasting life. It is after the thousand years when Satan is let out to try and get each human living on the earth.
Why does that make sense? Did not Jehovah require Adam and Eve? And Satan wasted no time in getting them to give up perfection.
How long would Adam and Eve had to be obeidient and not eat off that tree is not stated? But note Re 20:7-10,”Now as soon as the thousand years have ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and false prophet already were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
Those left living inherit everlasting life, and it does not say how long Satan is left out.
Why you should have no problem understanding this is because verses4-6 shows that all the chosen are not affected by this for they are in heaven, not only with everlasting life, but immortality.
So why did the Catholic Church grow so fast back in the dark ages? The big carrot! The way you get a rabbit to chase the prize. They said you can all go to heaven and have immortality.
Satan has used that tactic to get some to fall away from the faith. Where they looked forward to everlasting life on earth, someone said look what we got. And they fall for it. Others who are in Christendom get a hold of a little truth like no hell fire and then join in. Believe what you want you are all going to heaven.
Sounds like a plan to me. But, its a plan with a heavy price. One I will not be a part of.
And you were questioning Re 17. Remember how they admired the beast? That wild beast verse 8 and 11 says its goes off to destruction. What kind of destruction?
Remember20:10? “the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, WHERE BOTH THE WILD BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ALREADY WERE.”
Read Re 16:13-16 13 mentions wild beast and false prophet destroyed at Amageddon. Re 20:10 which is after the 1,000 years Has the Devil receiving the same result. Second death!
Do I find it discouraging to have to be faithful up and through Armageddon, and then again at the end of a thousand years? No! Why not? He is a wonderful God and he allows us to always keep learning more about him. Life is so beautiful and he is going to make it better. Just put peanuts in bird box. Bluejays flying in from everywhere.
Hi Max you do realise that the wbts has to say ? only those who are anointed are written in the book of life so with your reasoning that would leave the great crowd of jws left for destruction because your name isn’t written in the book of life. your not a son of God until the end of the 1000 years how about we gather all the scriptures from all the books of the bible and not base our whole theology on the book of revelation because to do that is a very dangerous thing.
To all Good Morning;
Jeff you will need alot of patience for it will take alot of time to explain all those chapters. Going to be in dentist chair in about 1 hour. So let me just throw a few things off on a few of the other coments made by a few.
Re 17:14 Lets look at beginning.1. Judgement on great harlot.
2.Kings messing with harlot.
3.3-6 the disgusting woman, blood of the holy ones.
4.6-8 I will tell you, those who dwell on the earth do so admiringly. NOTE!!!!THEIR NAMES HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN UPON THE SCROLL OF LIFE, FROM THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD. If you people what to believe God has a plan for those people you can do so. But as I read it, that is a group you do not want to be a part of.
5. Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in. seven mountains, mountains mean kingdoms,governments. five wer, one is that is in Johns day and one to come. The Anglo-American World Power. An and eighth the U.N.
6. They have one thought!!!!Give their power and authority to the wild beast.
These will battle with the Lamb. The Lamb will conquer them.
Of coarse, there is nothing that the rulers of this world can do against Jesus himself. He is in heaven, far out of their reach. But Jesus brothers, the remaining ones of the womens seed, are still on earth and apparently vulnerable Re 12:17 Many of the horns have already demonstrated bitter hostility toward them, and in this way they have battled with the Lamb. Mt 25:40,45.
Humbleman, who was Revelation written to? When would these things take place? If they are all in heaven and it was for them to understand in the Lord’s day, it is worthless if they are all in heaven.
Re 1:1,”to show his slaves.” When? 10,”I came to be in the Lord’s day.” Which group of slaves would not understand these things? Mt 24:48,49,”My master is delaying, and should start to beat his fellow slaves.”
“Until the day Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Children and all destroyed. To Jacqulin. When I came into the truth the first family that invited me over became apostates. It was there favorite story when their young daughter was at the door with them and the householder said, Merry Christmas, and the little girl said yukie pagan holiday.
Needless to say they went down by getting involved in spirtism. She played the piano and then during the meeting an elder told her it would be best if she did not play do to their problem. She stood up and said,’then I might as well go home, it is the only reason I come.’
Why do we have two forces. Well, James speaks about the worldly wisdon as being animalistic and demonic. How can we get people to see the difference? I hope no one is offened. But when I go door to door with the Kingdom message. Lu 8,9,10, Mt 10:1-5; Acts 5:42 20:20 Ro 10:9-17 Eph 6:10-18 Re 12:17
When a dog comes to the door and you give him a treat he warmly accepts it. And wants more. On the other hand, when information from the bible is about to be given which could mean everlasting life, the human shuts the door in your face.
It is preety clear whose name might not be in the book of life.
What about the religious leaders in Jesus day? Didn’t he show they were coming close two Gehhenna. The second death, the same one the Pastor talks about. Heb 6:4-6
Got run!