INTRODUCTION:
Some of the JWs I have spoken to regarding this topic usually consider that the idea that the great crowd is not on earth is coming from ‘ex-JWs,’ ‘antagonists,’ and ‘sympathetic supporters from mainstream churches.’ The idea proposed is that these individuals do not see the two classes of saved men. It would seem that the idea (although not stated) is that any who disagree with the JW position on the ‘great crowd’ would also disagree with the scriptural concept of the two classes of saved men.
Regardless of the view taken on this topic, I need to emphasize that mankind WILL be resurrected to judgment on earth, while the 144,000 and great crowd are resurrected to the spiritual life and nature in heaven. Just because someone believes the great crowd is in heaven does not mean that they oppose the very Scriptural view of the earthly resurrection of the majority of mankind to 1000 years of judgment.
‘Those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!’ (John 5:29, Philips)
Only the anointed rise to life. Everyone else rises to face judgment for a thousand years.
WHERE IS THE TEMPLE?:
Revelation 7:15 clearly states that the ‘great crowd’ ‘serve day and night in his temple’. Other passages in the book of Revelation identify God’s temple with heaven, then the ‘great crowd’ must of necessity wind up in heaven. Cites
Revelation 11:19 which says: ‘Then God’s TEMPLE IN HEAVEN was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant…’
Revelation 14:17 which reports: ‘Another angel came out of the TEMPLE IN HEAVEN…’
Revelation 19:1 — A ‘great crowd’ is seen in heaven in 19:1,6 which says: ‘After this I heard what seemed like the loud voice of a GREAT CROWD IN HEAVEN saying ‘Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God. . .And I heard what seemed as if it were the voices of a GREAT CROWD and the sound of much water and the pealing of strong thunders, all saying ‘Hallelujah, because the Lord our God Almighty has come into his reign’’ –THE BIBLE IN LIVING ENGLISH.
The words translated ‘great multitude’ appear as a title in Revelation, and these words together ONLY appear in Revelation chapters 7 and 19 and NOT anywhere else. The words ‘great company’ do not appear anywhere in Revelation 5. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses point to Revelation 5 where the words do not appear and this proves absolutely nothing.
WE know they are not the same group because they are mentioned in Revelation as being in heaven, being at the marriage supper, but not the bride herself.
COUNTER ARGUMENTS:
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I’ve spoken to have brought up other passages in Revelation . . .
Revelation 5:11,12 (NEW ENGLISH BIBLE): ‘Then as I looked I heard the voices of countless angels. These were all round the throne and the living creatures and the elders. Myriads upon myriads there were, thousands upon thousands, and they cried aloud: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, to receive all power and wealth, wisdom and might, honor and glory and praise!’.
The words ‘great company’ do not appear in Revelation 5. Different words are used there and, as can clearly be seen, the context is completely different.
It is not necessary to mention the angels in Revelation 19 directly since the context of the chapter is regarding the servants who sing praises before the throne. The great company are described as these servants in the temple. ‘They serve him day and night in his temple.’ (Revelation 7:15) It is these servants which are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Bride.
It was not necessary for Angels to be mentioned specifically as having to be invited to the marriage supper in Revelation 19 since the point of the context was about the invitation for the servants in the temple, the great company, to be invited to that supper. The bride is already there for ‘she hath made herself ready’ for the wedding (Revelation 19:7).
However, there are angels in Revelation 19. One of which appears to John and states, ‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ (Revelation 19:9)
This specific passage refers to the guests of the marriage supper, those invited to the supper of the Bride and the Lamb. The Lamb and Bride are not guests at their own marriage for there would be no marriage without them. More on this later.
Also, in Revelation 19, and angel is also calling others to ‘come and be gathered unto the great supper. . .’ (Revelation 19:18).
CONTEXT:
‘. . . And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand . . .’
This full number is sealed and ‘delivered’ at this point in the context. They do not receive this reward on earth.
Revelation 14
1 ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased FROM the earth.
Contextually we can see that this vision is not on earth. I do not believe that the JW view fits here since these sealed ones are in heaven at the same time that the great crowd washes their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:14)
The context continues to describe the circumstances of this group after they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
‘Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.’
What are these ‘robes’? Revelation tells us who has robes.
Revelation 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
This verse speaks of the anointed class. Those on earth are not described as having robes.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Who are the ones described here in this verse? Does Revelation 22:14 refer to those on earth? Or heavenly ones?
‘And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.’ (Revelation 22:2), ‘his servants shall serve him;’ (Revelation 22:3) ‘they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 22:4)
This refers to the 144,000 who are the only ones with His name on their foreheads.
‘And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.’ (Revelation 14:1) They are described as servants, and as having the Father’s name in their foreheads. These are the ones who are ‘blessed’ this way for ‘keeping the words of this book.’
Revelation 22
11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
In this context the anointed, the 144,000, have been drinking of the waters of life, while the world resurrected to judgment are being judged ‘according to their works.’
Do the Great Company have robes? Yes. Revelation 7 states this is so. Revelation 22:14 speaks of those who washed their robes. Only the great company in Revelation has washed their robes and they are in heaven contextually with these 144,000 who have been drinking of these waters of life.
At this point the Spirit and the Bride makes the invitation to the world to drink of these waters of life.
‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Revelation 22:17
The world does not have robes on since they are not pure. They are the unjust ones resurrected to 1000 years of judgment. The world of mankind are not saints. Only those who are spiritual have these robes on for ‘fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’
Revelation 19:8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
BEFORE THE THRONE:
The Scriptures also teach that the 144,000 are in the temple, are before the throne, the 24 elders are before the throne, the great multitude is before the throne, the angels, 24 elders, and 4 beasts are before the throne IN HEAVEN.
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
DAY AND NIGHT IN THE TEMPLE:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 Paul states that that those who will go to heaven will be given immortality. They will not be’ GUIDED to fountains of waters of life’ while they are serving God ‘day and night’ in the heavenly part of the great spiritual temple.
Those in heaven will not need to be guided to fountains of living water. Their task will be to guide others to the living water.
The 144,000 are ALSO partakers of this fountain of life. They must be in order to have immortality. They are not given it ‘automatically.’ They must drink of the water that Jesus gives to them to get eternal life!
John 4:14, ‘whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.’
Not only are the 144,000 partakers of this fountain of life, but they also will guide others to that fountain WITH the Lamb!
Revelation 22:17 ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.’
There is no question that in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are in heaven. They will have been redeemed from the earth and with Christ Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Compare Hebrews 12:22-24 with Revelation 14:1)
The question is this: If the ‘great crowd’ also go to heaven why are they not acknowledged in Revelation 14:1-5?
This is because they are only bidden to come at the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Both are seen in heaven in Revelation 19. Both the 144,000 as the bride of Christ and the great company are at the marriage supper of the lamb and his bride. The 144,000 are not mentioned as being there, yet we know that they are there due to the context of the Apocalypse. The context of entire book of Revelation shows that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. The marriage supper IN HEAVEN of the Lamb and the bride have the great crowd as guests at the wedding.
NO NEED OF THE SUN:
. . .and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne WILL spread his tent over them. They WILL hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither WILL the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, WILL shepherd them, and WILL guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God WILL wipe out every tear from their eyes.’ (Revelation 7:15-17 NWT)
In Revelation 7 the Great Crowd has no need of the sun (Revelation 7:16). This is also true of the 144,000 in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.
This is not true of the myriads of men who are outside that city. They live
SURVIVORS:
We should not forget that separate from these events, separate from these two groups, the great crowd and the 144,000, mankind will be restored on earth in the earthly phase of the kingdom.
In the “day of Jehovah’ some will survive the destruction and live on into the millennial realm.
Some will go to heaven in the end times, and some will survive over into the ‘new earth’. (See Isaiah 66:19-24; Isaiah 24:1-6; Zechariah 14)
Even after I stress that this does not necessitate that the great crowd must be on earth, many of the JWs I have spoken to still confuse the issue by thinking that if the great multitude were in heaven that there would be no one left to be on earth to survive Armageddon into the ‘new earth.’
There will be a resurrection on earth and a resurrection in heaven and there will be survivors. These unbelievers will be given an opportunity to repent and turn to Jehovah. There should be no misunderstanding that without the great multitude there is no resurrection on earth.
As for the argument that those who perish at Armageddon will not be resurrected I will quote the following:
‘ So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isaiah 24:6; Jeremiah 25:33)’ 6/1/1953 WT
Contrary to the quotation, the Scriptures tell us that not only will those who survive Armageddon make it to ‘judgment day,’ but also those who were killed in Armageddon.
‘It shall come to pass, that . . . the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently . . . The Lord shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth, . . . . and they shall be gathered together as prisoners in the pit, and after many days they shall be visited.’ (Isaiah 24:17-23)
I found it interesting that the WT CD-ROM does not contain a specific reference to Isaiah 24:22. Perhaps I did not know where to look?
These kings destroyed in Armageddon ‘shall be visited’ in the ‘day of judgment’ like everyone else according to the next verse in this context for all the world is ‘resurrected to judgment’ and the anointed are ‘resurrected to life.’ (John 5:29).
‘ . . . for Jehovah of hosts will reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem; and before his elders shall be glory. . . ‘ Isaiah 24:23.
The grand hope of the Scriptures is the restoration of the human race on earth. The human race will be restored to the earth while at the same time Jesus with the 144,000 and Great Company will help in that restoration of the rest of mankind.
‘And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God.’ Revelation 19:9
I was not able to find many Jehovah’s Witness comments on this passage, and some of the comments on this verse from the WT CD-ROM confuse me.
‘Over this celestial marriage, both heaven and the righteous ‘new earth’ will rejoice with unspeakable joy.—Revelation 19:6-9.’ (Worldwide Security, On the Watch, 1986)
Where is the world in these verses? … unless one would interpret the ‘great crowd in heaven’ here as being on the earth. The world is not bid to come to the marriage supper.
‘The ones invited to ‘the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ are the members of the bride class.’ (Revelation Climax).
This comment does not fit contextually since those mentioned in Revelation 19:9 are guests, and not the bride at all. The bride does not need to be invited to the marriage since there would be no marriage without the bride. This invitation is strictly for guests of the marriage supper, this great company who have washed their robes white are the guests of the supper.
The following quotation from the WT states again that the Great Company is to rejoice over this marriage. It also states that they are the ‘prospective attenders at the marriage feast IN HEAVEN.’
‘The invitation is timely, too, from another viewpoint. The Bible shows that the Father of Jesus Christ at this time would provide the wedding for his Son, (Revelation 19:7) He would resurrect those faithful footstep followers of Christ Jesus who had died, to join him in the heavens as a bride would join her husband. (1 Thess. 4:15, 16) There would still be some of these on earth, namely, the remnant, who are prospective attenders at the marriage feast in heaven, (Revelation 19:9) Why would they be left here for a while? One of the reasons was so that they could extend the invitation to the ‘great crowd’ to rejoice over the marriage. The marriage time would be the time for the ‘bride’ and ‘bridegroom’ to turn attention to their earthly family of ‘other sheep,’ over whom they rule as kings and priests.—Revelation 20:6.’ WT 12/1/67
Again, another quote which makes it seem that the great crowd is at the marriage supper in heaven.
‘The class that makes up Christendom has no excuse to offer to the King for trying to be at the ‘marriage feast’ without the symbolic garment. That class can offer no reason for being allowed to enjoy the ‘wedding ceremonies’ and ‘feast.’ At the time of the final inspection, that class is found ‘speechless.’ How will the King treat that class? Jesus’ illustration shows:18 ‘Then the king said to his servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and throw him out into the darkness outside. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.’’—Matt. 22:13. 19 So this class is bound beyond all ability to offer resistance. It is cast thus into the ‘darkness outside,’ outside where the darkness is not alleviated by such things as street lamps. There, with no enlightenment of any kind from God, that class will weep and gnash its teeth, in the ‘great tribulation’ in which religious Babylon the Great and all the rest of this system of things will be destroyed. (Revelation 17:14-18) That class will be cut off from the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ and will have no part in the ‘evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage’ in the heavens above.—Revelation 19:9.’ WT 11/15/74
An article from the same year in the Wt applies this verse in another way.
‘The few remaining ones of this class of persons on earth now are ‘invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.’ (Revelation 19:9) The actual marriage takes place in heaven.’ WT 7/15/74.
This article does not mention the great multitude as being there according to this verse as the previous article did, and it applies it to the bride still remaining on earth, instead of the marriage supper guests.
‘When anointed Christians receive their heavenly reward, however, they take their place alongside Jesus and share in his public service as heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6; 22:1-5)’ 11/15/2000 WT
‘Thereafter, these sons of God will be revealed as channels for blessings flowing from the throne of God to mankind. (Revelation 22:1-5) Eventually, this revealing of the sons of God will result in the blessing of faithful mankind with the glorious freedom of the children of God. Do you long for that time?’ 6/1/92 WT
‘How can the anointed ones shine forever, since each one will eventually die? In that they will continue to ‘shine’ even after death. Describing them in their heavenly position, Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation: ‘The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will render him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor do they have sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.’—Revelation 22:3-5.’ 7/1/87 WT
I have noticed other similarities regarding the Great Company and the Anointed for both are selected out of the nations.
The Great Company was selected ‘. . . out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues . . .’ Revelation 7:9
The elect are selected in the same way. – ‘Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.’ (Revelation 5:9-10)
‘No man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.’ (Revelation 14:3).
The world is not selected to be out of the world to be saved in the kingdom. They are the world! They will be in the world! They will inherit the earth.
The song which both sing are similar.
‘Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.’ (Revelation 7:10)
‘Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God.’ (Revelation 19:1)
Amen!
Contributed by JM
Hey Jeff how is it going? I guess you did not see the answer. Let me see if this will help you. After the apostles died off the apostasy started to florish. Why they were living they were already coming around, but after their death boom it started. Now this is a rough guess but around the time on Constintine it grew big time. We know from the bible the names of a number of Christians. But in Acts where it says 5 thousand, it means we do not know the names of many.
Likewise when theycame from after the apostle John died we don’t have to amny names and of those we don’t know if they were chosen. Botton line the early ones who were chosen and their names mentioned really could care less that their name was mentioned. To serve Jehovah faithfully was their goal, to death.
As regards to who they were during the dark ages, the last part of that sentence says it all for our understanding who they were. “the dark ages” Thats right we are in the dark.
We do have some names of some burned at the stake by people who thought they were the bride of Christ. But when the printing machines became more plentiful, the word began to become avaiable and the Lord’s day was getting close. Re1:10
Comsense would say that It would be a time of Jehovah increasing the choosing for they would go through alot to prove their worthyness to the crown. During that time many different groups were appearing and so forth. Eventually one group started to appear and make statements of striving to become part of the bride class. Many came and many went. Not much of a clue who they all were. But the one group had preachers going out with the invitations. And alot were responding. As time went slowly some fell away, and latter a few larger ones fell away. The Pastor said if they think they have something better, they should follow it. Then he died and this came when Jehovah’s spirit was have them weeded. It was rough and many fell away. Lots of new groups many of which withered away. But you might still have about 10,000 or so who pick parts of their beliefs and gling to it.
On the other hand the WT Mag is still coming out and the Pastor felt Jehovah would continue to use it afyer he died. Immperfect men ran all the splinter groups and immperfect men ran the WT GROUP.
During those early years 1914-1918 it was rough, But the faithful received Jehovah’s spirit and things exploded. There was big work to be done and the blessings are there.
The ones who fell away. When you ask them, whats new? All you here is, same old same old. Why is that? Jehovah’s spirit has never been with them. Way before any of you were born. But what has helped them? And why didn’t they grow Like JW,s?
Well without Jehovah’s spirit they couldn’t preach. Oh ya a radio frank and ernst but it didnt do much. But the JW,s had Jehovah’s spirit and reached people all over the world fulfilling Jesus assignment Mt 28:19,20.
But wait the internet comes in. True their eye in the house T.V. couldn’t reavh many, but the new thing house could. So Satan dead beat group get a little reprive, thinking their doing the Lord’s work. And that is why Jesus said they will mislead many and even try to mislead the chosen if possible.
How easy would it be to mislead them?
1. Offer immortality and all you have to do is what ever you want. What a deal.
2. Tell them everyone gets saved, Armageddon isn’t what you think it is. So if you do nothing you are saved but then not a part of the bride class.
3. Don’t you all want to eat drink and be merry. Work 3 jobs and get the money, lust in the pleasures of life, God loves you.
It is hard to believe people can be that fooled!
“Hey Jeff how is it going? I guess you did not see the answer.”
Max… God is good and Jesus takes care of me. But I’m not sure I saw any answers in this post either.
“It is hard to believe people can be that fooled!”
It is interesting you should say this.
Anyway…I certainly hope you appreciate my dry sense of humor.
I’m going to repost some of the previous questions that are still waiting.
In regards to Ezekiel 38 and 39 I think you are missing the point. Israel in this context is a sinful nation, in unbelief, and not following the will of God.
Consider the context you yourself quoted…
Ezekiel 39
23 “the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against me, and I hid my face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword.
24 “according to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid my face from them.”’”
25 therefore thus says the lord GOD, “now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26 “they will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.
27 “when I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.
28 “then they will know that I am the LORD their god because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them t
According to this context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
Joel 2:
12 ¶ “yet even now,” declares the LORD, “return to me with all your heart, and with fasting, weeping and mourning;
13 and rend your heart and not your garments.” now return to the LORD your god, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and relenting of evil.
14 who knows whether he will not turn and relent and leave a blessing behind him, even a grain offering and a drink offering for the LORD your god?
According to Joel’s context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
Zechariah 12:
9 in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over hi
Zechariah 14:
16 then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.
17 and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
According to Zechariah’s context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
According to all of these contexts….
Israel is in unbelief until AFTEr the battle of Armageddon. If Armageddon is still future, any group that identifies themselves with that Israel must be in unbelief and without the Holy Spirit which is not poured until until AFTER that battle.
Unless…it has already happend? Do you believe Armageddon has already happened?
I would also like to state why I believe there is a serious error in current Jehovah’s Witness theology in regards to this pourint out of the Spirit.
At some point in the past the WT went from believing the spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh AFTER Armageddon (as several of the Scriptures I’ve pointed to state), to believing it would be poured out on ALL flesh BEFORE Armagedon.
While researching how and when this doctrine changed, I found the article where this happened and find the reason why it changed interesting.
In the article entitled, “The Holy Spirit Poured Out” written in the November 15, 1925 Watchtower, we start to see the early changes.
“It will be before “the great and terrible day of the Lord come”. “In those days,” instead of meaning in the Gospel’Age, clearly means within that period of time in which the Lord is pouring out his spirit upon all flesh of the house of Israel.” page 341
This was a beginning of shifting the hope of the gospel for the salvation of the unbelieving world, to the salvation of only the Jehovah’s Witnesses, for if the spirit was to be poured out on JUST a ‘spiritual’ Israel, then the prophecies which speak of the spirit being poured out an unbelieving Israel and the world being converted would need to be re-evaluated.
“The facts show that there has been a greater witness to the message of the Lord since than prior to 1918.” November 15, 1925 WT, p342.
If Russell died in 1916, how were the doctrines changing so quickly that by the 1930′s it was an entirely new religion with very little similarities to what came before? This article appears to have a part of the answer. It was easy for the doctrines to change so fast because by 1924 nearly half of those who attended the conventions were new since 1918.
“At the SOCIETY’s convention in Columbus in 1924, in response to a question, fully half of that great multitude stated they had come to a knowledge of the truth since 1918. page 342
Another quote — “It was particularly noticed that amongst those was a great number of young men and young women.”
Somehow this was supposed to be a fulfillment of the ‘young men and women’ who dreamed dreams and saw visions in the prophecy of Joel?
Some of these interpretations are a bit silly by today’s standards, but much of what the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe today is based on imaginations like this.
Rutherford and friends were stretching to try to find some prophetic fulfillments which would ‘prove’ that God had chosen them as his channel. It appears they only stretched themselves selfishly and egotistically into the prophecies and pushed everyone else out leaving salvation for only them.
The 1926 W.T. page 143 states this much clearer — “A careful study of the article in the Watch Tower will demonstrate that the Holy Spirit being poured out does not include the millions class who expect to live on the earth. The Holy spirit will not be poured out on anyone during the Millennial Age.”
The context of Joel is clear. This happens in “the great and awesome day of the LORD” and similarly as the context in Zechariah 14 states, unbelievers are given opportunity for salvation AFTER the battle of Armageddon.
Verse 32 “It will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.”
Verse 33 states that the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem will be restored. When? Not before Armageddon, but after it as the context clearly states.
Zechariah 14 states the same….
verse 14 judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
…. 16 ¶ then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.
17 and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. . . .
The Scriptural doctrine of salvation and the opportunites for that salvation, even AFTER the day of the Lord for unbelievers is amazing!
These articles I mentioned above were a beginning of the discarding of the Scriptures Ransom for All and for which Russell had separated from Barbour. Now Rutherford was beginning to deny the Ransom and head the same way as Barbour.
Do Jehovahs Witnesses teach what Pastor Russell taught about 1914?
It appears from the Scriptures you quoted, and the contexts I have quoted, that anyone who would identify themselves with the Israel in these contexts is stating that they are without the holy spirit, are are unbelievers because they look for Armageddon to happen in the future.
Hi Jacqulin;
Let me tell a little about me. Got the truth in 1972. Fully aware of those dates and rhe fact that more came in. Why do things like that happen? My favorite is King Solomon.
1 Ki 3:11,”requested for yourself understanding.”12,”I shall certainly give you a wise and understanding heart, so that one like you there has not happened to be before you, and after you there will not rise up one like you.” But there was a if as to lenthening his days. 14,”And if you will walk in my ways by keeping my regulations and my commandments, just as David your father walked, I will also lengthen your days.
IF! Lets check a commandment. Lev 18:21,”And you must not allow the devoting of any of your offspring to Molech. You must not profane the name of your God that way. I am Jehovah.”
How did the smartest man who is a sinner like the rest do? 1 Ki 11:7,”It was then that Solomon proceeded to build a high place to Chemosh the disgusting thing of Moab on the mountain that was in front of Jerusalem, and to Molech the disgusting things of Ammon.”
If you had a chance to go to dinner tonight and your choice was Solomon who just got done bowing to the false god’s or Noah who just got off the ark after the flood, who would you pick? The one who could dazzle you with proverbs, or the one who would say you must be faultless to Jehovah? Ge 6:9; DUET 18:13 13:18; Mt 5:48.
Now answer this. It is true that God used many people who were no where as smart as Solomon? Many of them were faithful even though they made mistakes right? If answer is no, consider King David, King Jehosaphat, or Jonah the prophet just to name a few.
Records 1975 went up 24.
1945 to 1950 up395 more chosen ones.
Could give you more ups. So what does that tell us? When they said 1931 or 1935 did they show a Bile verse for that date? No! What happened right before Jesus went up Acts 1:9—verse 6 has one that would soon become baptized in holy spirit ask Jesus,”are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
Did Jesus say I know it all and will tell you when I want to? No! He said,”It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdition.”
Now that you follow Pastor Russell’s teaching, explain how he would have known when the Gentile times ended if Revelation was not given by God.
Whats that got to do with the price of apples you say?
All but the apostle John were dead when God gave that revelation. It had keys in their so the appointed times of the Gentiles could be discerned. Remember Jesus said it is in God’s hands. And Amos lets us get a glimpse how Jehovah works. 3:7,”For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” Compare Ge 6:13; 18:17; 1 Ki 22:23; 2 Ki 3:17; 22:20; Ps 25:14; Is 42:9; Da 9:22; 11:2; John 15:15; Re 1:1
Max,
Do Jehovahs Witnesses teach what Pastor Russell taught about 1914?
Why or why not?
Max, Solomon did a disgusting thing indeed. The blood issue is sort of like that where young children and mostly women die. May 22, 1994 show on the cover Children that died for Rutherfords interpretation one day of this scripture. So No Solomon or any that advocate killing of children would not be on my dinner list. However Jesus ransom covered the little children and their murderers.
I do not follow the teachings of Br. Russell. I follow the teachings of Christ and the Bible. I will accept truth from the mouth even of a Donkey (Balaam’s Ass) if Jehovah empowered it to speak. Truth is truth no matter the source and no religion has all truth. We are in this together trying to peer into the word of God to understand as much as possible his Divine Plan for man and our role in it. Ro. 3:4 says “let God be found true, though every man a liar.” The word of God is my touchstone. I am free to accept others thought on matters. Do I believe Br. Russell had God’s Holy Spirit to help him? I most certainly do. But I believe some of the teachings of the witnesses and other religions as long as they are supported by scripture and tested against them. With me it is not about a man, person, thing or organization. It is about Christ. Like I mentioned before I accept a person holding to Dogma, it is their right. I can still converse with them. That is something I have learned from my association with the Bible Students. It was strange at first but now I have learned to respect every Christian as they try to get to Christ by the free gift.
Max,
I’m not sure what to think here. You still aren’t commenting on any of the specific questions or verses of contexts I am pointing you to. You keep going everywhere else instead. I think however, that if you would take time to answer some of the direct questions posed to you that it might strengthen your case and make it appear that you aren’t trying to avoid certain passages you may or may not be unfamiliar with.
Like Jacqueline said in a recent post to you, “Youw seem to hold to what you believe and the BS do not have an agenda to change you or any other’s belief. We present the facts from the Bible to inform brothers.” The beautiful thing about what the Scriptures teach which is different than what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, is that you will not go into second death if you should not agree with us. You can look forward to the paradise earth which was promised to the Jews and Gentile nations in the Old Testament … even if you disagree with us. I wish you all of God’s blessings in that day.
As I’ve already stated a few times now, several of the Scriptures I have pointed absolutely contradict what you are telling me about the ungodly after Armageddon. They state conclusively that unbelievers (i.e. those without god or ungodly) will still exist after the battle of Armageddon and will be given an opportunity to accept Christ.
So…lets try yet another approach with you.
In regards to Ezekiel 38 and 39 I think you are missing the point. Israel in this context is a sinful nation, in unbelief, and not following the will of God.
Consider the context you yourself quoted…
Ezekiel 39
23 “the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against me, and I hid my face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword.
24 “according to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid my face from them.”’”
25 therefore thus says the lord GOD, “now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26 “they will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.
27 “when I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.
28 “then they will know that I am the LORD their god because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them t
According to this context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
Joel 2:
12 ¶ “yet even now,” declares the LORD, “return to me with all your heart, and with fasting, weeping and mourning;
13 and rend your heart and not your garments.” now return to the LORD your god, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness and relenting of evil.
14 who knows whether he will not turn and relent and leave a blessing behind him, even a grain offering and a drink offering for the LORD your god?
According to Joel’s context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
Zechariah 12:
9 in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over hi
Zechariah 14:
16 then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of booths.
17 and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
According to Zechariah’s context….
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the unbelieving nations will recognize that this happened to israel because of their transgressions.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that God will restore the fortunes of Israel and thir sins will be forgiven.
It isn’t until AFTER this battle of Armageddon that the name of Yahweh will be sanctified in the nations.
According to all of these contexts….
Israel is in unbelief until AFTEr the battle of Armageddon. If Armageddon is still future, any group that identifies themselves with that Israel must be in unbelief and without the Holy Spirit which is not poured until until AFTER that battle.
Unless…it has already happend? Do you believe Armageddon has already happened?
Last one Jeff. Please read Ez 39:28,29. Today, about93 years later, with their liberation from Babylon the Great, the remaining annoited remnent of spiritual Israel appreciate the freedom that they enjoy in their spiritual estate. He has poured out his spirit upon these spiritual Israelites. This is notably evident from the “fruitage” of Jehovah’s spirit, namely, the qualities of a godly personality like that of Jesus Christ. Luke 11:13; Gal 5:22,23; Eph 4:20-24 And a great crowd who aretaught the message form a group of sheeplike seekers of the true God have come out of all the nations and taken up residence with them in their spiritual Paradise. There they are worshipping the same God, Jehovah, under His Shepherd-King,Jesus Christ. Re 7:9-17; Mt 25:31-40,46; John 10:16 The End!
Please read EZ 39:25-27 As with ancient Israel in the year 537 B.C.E., so Jehovah showed he had jealousy. In 1919 C.E. Jehovah liberated them from their bondage to Babylon the Great and her political and military paramours. They would see greater religious and moral cleanness on their part and more clear cut separation of them from this unholy world. Inasmuch as Jehovah caused this by the greater unfolding of his Holy Bible to them and the operation of his holy spirit upon them, he santified himself among these obedient spiritual Israelites while the eyes of many nations among whom they preached the good news of God’s Kingdom looked on.
Please read Ez 39:21-24 His protected power over his restored people will then become glorious, and the nations under Gog will be made to see it. He will show them his “hand,” and it will be all powerful; and they will feel it when he places it down among them. During WW I they appeared to have no divine protection. They persecuted them, but it was only allowed by Jehovah who was disciplining his people for their shortcomings and lack of faith, their error, uncleanness, and transgressions even if of an unwitting kind. Hence he concealed his face of favor and approval from them and let the “hand of their adversaries” take hold of them and mistreat them.
Please read Ez 39:17-20 Their deaths symbolizes that they will not be laid in respected memorial tombs in hope of a resurrection for them. The unburied dead, “those slain by Jehovah,” will be so enormously many that even the carrion birds and scavenging wild beasts could never take care of their consumption. Doubless the Almighty God will use some highly scientic means, whether including antimatter or not, to dispose of the surplus of decaying bodies in a speedy and sanitary way.
Please read Ez 39:11-13 To bury Gog’s great crowd is merely a picture to portray the vastness of the crowd of ungodly people who will perish in the destruction of this system of things, as well as the fewness of those whom Jehovah preserves alive on earth. Futhermore the corpses of Gog’s crowd results in cleansing the land and signifies that this earth will be purified from all defilement by the ungodly servants of Satan the Devil alias Gog. Nothing of them will be left to defile the “new earth.” 2 Pe 3:13
To Humbleman, God’s word says a great crowd out of all the nations comes out of the Great Tribualation———–Armageddon. No man could number. We know the bride is numbered,144,000 and is written in the scroll of life. Re 17:8
Now notice the two differences Humbleman. Same verse,those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written.”
Phil 4:3,”as well as the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Surely you see the difference? Now when it said those who dwell on the earth, do you think it is talking about those who,”are dressed in white robes.”
Who are they? John did not know. Jehovah revealed it clear detail in 1935 C.E. Millions and millions of them, right now, getting ready to go through the up and coming Great Tribulation———–Armageddon.
In stead of admiring the wild beast, thet are found washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb. 7:14 of Revelation.
Max, I just wanted to interject. Were you aware the society does not hold to the 1935 year or the closing in 1931 of the anointed selection. Two of the GB member came in in the 1970’s so they opened it back up now even today. Rutherford made the change to be exclusive to many on a power level. He only changed the Jewish nation to JW anointed because Jews were not repatriated in 1914 when the war gave them the right. (scriptures said they wouldn’t) Had he lived until 1948 he would have no doubt changed it back as the Jews formed a nation again. Also in the 60’s the 6 day war would have convinced himm no doubt as they won the war without modern equipment, most rusted and old. The Jewish holocaust attack for no reason out of the north caused them to begin the flight out of all nations back to their homeland. All of this was foretold in scripture. It won’t fit the GB or anointed at any time on the earth as they have been down thru the centuries. Just a brief note.
Just a small note here on Hagar. Paul writing,”For example, it is written that Abraham aquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh.”
Stop for a moment and note Pauls words to the Romans 9:8,”That is, the children in the flesh, are not really the children of God.” I rest my case on that one.
Continue after the manner of flesh,”the other by the free woman through a promise.” Stop again! Ro 9:8,”but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.”
You have to see, the children of the flesh are not the children of God! Plain and simple.
Continue on,”These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants.” Stop Heb 8:7,”For if that first covennant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second.”
Continue,”the one from Mount Sinai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Hagar. Now this Hagar means Sinai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.”
And not how Paul closed with the words,”Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman.” 31
Now I am forced to ask a question Jesus asked those who claimed to be decendents of Abraham.
John 8:43,”Why is it you do not know what I am speaking?
You say prophecy says Israel. But you have to agree it says Jerusalen many times to. But is as plain as day,”are not the children of God.” Ro 9:8,the children of the flesh.”
And yet you keep saying they are God’s people. Amazing!