Chicago Bible Students Elder and Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses Administrator, Peter Karavas spoke to the congregation on Sunday Dec. 18, on the topic: Will Only Jehovah’s Witnesses Survive Armageddon? Is this lifetime the only chance for repentance and life? Is there any future hope? Will family members who have not jointed the JW Organization perish forever in eternal death? What does the Bible say?
Audio Discourse – Who Will Survive Armageddon
You can also read the text of the talk (pdf format) here: WHO_WILL_SURVIVE_ARMAGEDDON_Published
yesterday my wife and I had a conversation about identifying the true religion and she said she knows the Jw’s are the truth because 1) they go door to door preaching 2) they’re growing rapidly 3)they’re organized. So my come back was: 1)other religions such as the mormons, 7th day adventist and who knows who else do the same 2)other religions are growing too the same if not more than the Jw’s 3)some other religions are organized just as much if not more so than the Jw’s, like the catholics and mormons for example. Tell me what you guys think about this.
Ken, my relative stated the fact that JW are being persecuted in Russia, France etc. I showed the facts that other Christian an Muslims are being harshly treated also. Some of the Christian religions are treated far worse than the witnesses in Russia. Often the organization have lawyers that can battle in humanitarian courts to help witnesses. This also helps the other religions when they win as they did with the Russian witness that was sentenced. Love is the identifying quality of true Christianity.
Hi Humbleman;
Thank you for the reply, Will try and touch base tomoorrow. Anybody else may give a comment.
So my few questions are.
1. Why do I find some Bile Students speaking against organization when JW,s use it all the time?
there is nothing wrong with being organised. its when we start to let that take place of Jesus Christ that’s when it becomes a problem. the jw say the origination is the sole Chanel of truth the bible students say Jesus is the sole Chanel of truth. Hebrews 1
2.Why do JW,s share their message of the Kingdom all the time, but I don’t find the Bible Students doing so? I back this statement by looking at the results.
the bible students share the good news of the kingdom through many avenues ( Internet. state fairs. radio shows. cable tv. the good news we share is the same as the first century Christians. 1 Corinthians 15 v 1-4. if by looking at the results you mean the jws are larger in number then i agree they are but the SDA are growing twice as fast as the jws so what does that prove?
3. And where it mentions a oneness or relationship with each, why such different beliefs, where the JW,s have the oneness of the faith.
Bible students all agree on the main Issues. we have a oneness we are all reaching out for the goal of heavenly life with Christ. we may have different points of view on certain things but we are all bonded with love. are you of the same hope as the anointed jws? i agree the great crowd of jws do have the same thoughts on a things but that’s not difficult when you have only 10 men doing the thinking. but those ten men can not agree that why the vote on doctrines.
Example, JW,s witnesses belief Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914. The Bible Students have many different beliefs. One group sends me a answer and it never answers the question. At another forum, he tries to say Job was before the flood. And so on.
was satan cast down in 1914 Max I’m not sure maybe . maybe not. but one thing for sure is my whole faith will not be based on dates because that in itself takes faith . my faith alone is in God and Christ and everything else will revolve around that not the other way round
So what is the point? Well Jw,s have about 7.5 million declaring the good news of the Kingdom. Also in their WT study on last Sunday, it showed the troubles and how they are failing. Who? The political, commercial, and religious groups. And everyone agreed 2 Tim 3:3-5 is getting worse and worse.
i agree things are getting very bad we are in the last days the jws are very zealous in there preaching i admire that. are they preaching the true Gospel.?? i don’t think they are they are basically saying unless you become a jw you have no hope do you agree? yet the bible shows the nations being given a chance in the judgement day of a 1000 years Zechariah 14 v16-19 Zephaniah 3 v 9 rev 20 v 3
To Humbleman and others;
Back of book Vol IV p 22 The Organization of THE New Creation.
1. When will the organization of the New Creation be complete, and how is it illustrated in the Scriptures?
Its organization will be completed at the first resurrection.
2. In view of the foregoing, what shall we say about a temporary prganization of the New Creation?
So with us-all the fitting preparation is done in the present life. The living stones, which now submit joyfully to the Lord’s preparation, will be COMPLETELY ORGANIZED under himself. Caps mine!
A oneness or relationship of these living stones during the period of their preparation. Indeed, they go a step further, and reconize a TEMPORARY ORANIZATION which permits each member of the prospective Kingdom TO BE A SHARER with the Great Teacher and Master Builder in the oreoartory work of building up one another in the most holy faith,-assisting one another in the shaping of characters in accord with the lines of the pattern our Lord Jesus.
pages 195 and 196.
Also page 191 says, they in turn are ready at any cost to sound out the Word of the Lord.
So my few questions are.
1. Why do I find some Bile Students speaking against organization when JW,s use it all the time?
2.Why do JW,s share their message of the Kingdom all the time, but I don’t find the Bible Students doing so? I back this statement by looking at the results.
3. And where it mentions a oneness or relationship with each, why such different beliefs, where the JW,s have the oneness of the faith.
Example, JW,s witnesses belief Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914. The Bible Students have many different beliefs. One group sends me a answer and it never answers the question. At another forum, he tries to say Job was before the flood. And so on.
So what is the point? Well Jw,s have about 7.5 million declaring the good news of the Kingdom. Also in their WT study on last Sunday, it showed the troubles and how they are failing. Who? The political, comericial, and religious groups. And everyone agreed 2 Tim 3:3-5 is getting worse and worse.
Also why the Bible Students should be saying those things is because of what was written 114 years ago by Pastor Russell.
Consider the following. Vol IV p 622 “All this in harmony with the Scripural declaration that the Kingdom of God must FIRST BE SET UP before its influence and work will result in the complete destruction of “the powers that be” of “this present evil world”-political, financial, ecclesiastical-about the close of the “Times of the Gentiles,” October A.D.1914.
Will look forward to all your thought.
P.S. I find it quite amazing the same three institutions from 114 years ago in the same magazine which Pastor Russell said: “And that if the Lord should change his program, and His Channel of sending the truth at this late day, it would be very remarkable-less reasonable to suppose than that he would continue to use “that servant.”
Hi Max the DAY Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24. would you say it is a different day than what Jesus & Paul are taking about here or the same ?
Matthew 10
15Truly I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod´om and Go·mor´rah on Judgment Day than for that city.
Matthew 12
36I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day
acts 17
31Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead
Thank you Peter K.
Were you aware there are three nations not in the U.N.? I believe Croatia, Palestine, and the Vatican.
The Vatican has not ben crushed. Vol. IV page 580,”We have already pointed out the Antichrist,the great deceiver, the Papacy, which for centuries sat in the spiritual temple, displaying himself as the only representative of Christ-his vicegerent,-concerning whom our Lord correctly foretold, that all the world would wonder respecting him, except those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev. 13:8.)
They are still here. Many of them. You mention Mt 24:24 as being before Armageddon. Likewise Jesus said just a little later, “it will be just like the days of Noah.” Many lost their life. Likewise many will now.
That is why Jesus showed the two choices. Mt 7:13,14.
P.S. Why would there be false messiahs and false prophets after armageddom? Re 13:8 Christendom will not be around after Armageddon and the Pastor shows it is coming on Christendom.
I am not aware of any scriptures speaking about False Christ’s and Messiah’s after Armageddon. False Christ’s are mentioned in Matt 24:24, which I believe are those false religious systems that set themselves up as representatives of Christ or in place of Christ. The popes for example took all the titles of Christ’s office upon themselves. The great signs and wonders are things like televangelism, faith healing, Charities, Christian rock bands, Christian books stores, etc.
To Peter K. and Humbleman;
Would like to thank you both for your comments. My post here may intermingle between your two. Please consider.
NEB Dan 2:44,”In the period of those kings the God of heaven will establish a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; that kingdom shall never pass to another people; it shall shatter and make an end of all these kingdoms, while it shall endure forever.”
I believe this to be Armageddon. Re 16:16 From Zephaniah lets consider a few verses. 1:18; 2:1-3; 3:8,9.
First 1:18,”neither their silver nor their gold shall avail to save them. On the day of the Lord’s wrath, by the fire of his jealousy the whole land shall be consumed; for he will make an end, a swift end, of all who live in the land.”
James may have been quided to those words to warn the early Christians. 5:2,”Your riches have rotted; your fine clothes are moth-eaten; your silver and gold have rusted away.” The Pastor even found James words important by placing them on page 20 of Thy Kingdom Come Vol III. Likewise Vol I on page 314 and 15 he dicusses James 5:1-4 and Zep 1:14-18; and Re 19:17 pointing towards nominal Christendom. On page 116,”Nigh is the great Day of the Lord.” Note what he calls it,”That day is a day of wrath.” On page 317 he mentions Zep 3:8,9. On page 170 the pastor writes,”That the Lord must be present, and set up his Kingdom, and exercise his great power so as to dash the nations as a potter’s vessel, before A.D. 1914, is then clearly fixed; for it is”in the days of these kings”-before their overthrow-i.e., before A.D. 1914-that the God of heaven shall set up his Kingdom. And IT shall break in pieces and consume all these. (Dan. 2:44)page 170 Vol II In Vol IV page 130 he writes,”as compared with the great tribulation, now fast approaching, upon Christendom, and involving the whole world.” On page 580 we see him write,”except those whose name are written in the book of life. (Rev 13:8) He is talking about false messiah’s and false teacher’s. Tell me, why would they be in the book of life?
Max – I have to struggle through the detail of your comments to get at the real point. It would help if you simply stated in summary your complete point at the beginning or end.
I believe that the image was struck in 1914. The iron and clay toes are church (clay) and state (iron). Remember that iron is tied to Rome or civil power. The clay is imitation stone. Since the stone is the true kingdom (Dan 2:44), then the clay or imitation stone, would be the false kingdom or the papacy and Christendom. In 1914, the iron and clay in the toes broke apart, that is to say, church/state rule ended.
None of the billions of the dead world of mankind are written in the book of life, but only the Lord’s faithful throughout the ages. As I think is implied in the Matt 25 Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, mankind will have the opportunity to become sheep in the kingdom and therefore find themselves written in the book of life then.
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dear Bro max. i also appreciate you wanting to discuss these deep issues. we all do this in a spirit of love as we are all brothers in Christ. we could understand all the scriptures perfectly to finest detail but if we don’t have love its useless. there are just a couple of points i wanted to make. the jw s today believe they have the pure speech spoken of in Zephaniah 3 v 9 lets take a look at this verse and the verses before it.
8″‘Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘till the day of my rising up to [the] booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured. 9For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder
Notice max the pure speech isn’t given until after Armageddon. the nations will be taught by Jehovah in the kingdom. you quoted Isaiah to lets take a look at that and some other scriptures.
Joel 3 v 9-10 must take place first
9″Proclaim this, YOU people, among the nations, ‘Sanctify war! Arouse the powerful men! Let them draw near! Let them come up, all the men of war! 10Beat YOUR plowshares into swords and YOUR pruning shears into lances. As for the weak one, let him say: “I am a powerful man
and then Isaiah 2 in the kingdom
And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
Notice here Max first Jehovah declares war on the nations and tells them to beat there (plowshares into swords) and there ( pruning shears into lances) After this they will be given the pure speech and he will sett matters straight with the nations. the reason Satan is abyss is so he cant mislead the nations any more
3And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.
the nations being spoken of here max are those who survive the war of Armageddon
Zechariah 14
16″And it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem, they must also go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the festival of the booths. 17And it must occur that, as regards anyone that does not come up out of the families of the earth to Jerusalem to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, even upon them no pouring rain will occur. 18And if the family of Egypt itself does not come up and does not actually enter, upon them also there shall be none. The scourge will occur with which Jehovah scourges the nations that do not come up to celebrate the festival of the booths. 19This itself will prove to be the [punishment for the] sin of Egypt and the sin of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the festival of the booths
brother max I’m not asking you to agree with me. all i ask is that you approach the bible with a open mind let the word of God speak. truth fears nothing. Take care dear brother 🙂
Thank you for your response Peter K.
In your comment that the devils and Satan will be destoyed forever, please consider this. You mentioned Re 20:10,”and consumed them.” NEB Verse 4 ,”those who had not worshipped the beast and its image or received its mark on forehead or hand.” Who were these human beings? They had been killed for their faith in God’s word and witness to Jesus. Verse 6 shows them to be happy. Why? The second death has no claim on them. Re 20:6
Now notice what that verse says happened to the Devil Satan after the thousand years had ended. Destroyed forever. Key point, where the beast and false prophet had been flung. That happened to them at the start of the thousand years.
So lets examine them. Re 13,”I saw a beast rising. It had ten horns and seven heads.” Who gives it the power to rule? “The dragon conferred upon it his power and rule, and great authority. We know the dragon is Satan. Re 12:8,9.
It is not just the kings that worship him. “The whole world went after the beast in wondering admiration.” Verse 8,”ALL on earth will worship it, except those whose names the Lamb that was slain keeps in his roll of the living, written there since the world was made.”
These other people are indifferent to the believers. They revile God’s name.
So really there is no difference from the masses to the kings, there on the same side. So if God destroys the kings, why would he not destroy the masses. They all worship the beast who got its power from the dragon Satan.
Note this verse,”Who ever takes the sword to kill, by the sword he is bound to be killed.” 13:9,10.
Note God’s people,”They shall beat their swords into mattocks and their spears into pruning-knives; nation shall not lift sword nor lift sword against nation nor ever again be trained for was.” Is 2:4
This nation comes from where? “All the nations shall come streaming to it.” Is 2:2 This goes right along with Re 7:9, for the great crowd are from all national tribes and tougues.
I am sorry, but it looks like everlasting destruction for all those people who worship the beast.
Will look forward to your feed back.
Max – Thanks for being interested in discussing these issues. I will not take the approach of ignoring what you said and providing dozens of scriptures showing that everyone, including the wicked will be brought back in the resurrection. You will find some of these scriptures at this link: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
Rather than turning the tables on you and putting you on the defensive, I will directly respond to your points.
Now Revelation is very symbolic, so formulating important doctrinal conclusions based on uncertain interpretations is a bit risky.
Your view: The second death has no power over the faithful servants of Jehovah (Rev 20:6). Therefore, everyone who worshipped the beast will go into (eternal) 2nd Death.
Where is that stated? Just because the 2nd Death has no power over the bride of Christ, does not mean that everyone else goes into second death or that those who worshipped the beast go into second death. As a matter of fact, Rev 19:20 mentions those who worshiped the beast but, by implication excludes them from second death, at this time, by describing only the beast and false prophet as going into 2nd Death.
Your view: The whole world in the future will follow after the beast and go into second death based on: Rev 13:9, 10 – ”Who ever takes the sword to kill, by the sword he is bound to be killed.”
The word “kill” here cannot be referring to the 2nd Death since as you pointed out; those who don’t worship the beast were killed (Rev 20:4). The faithful don’t go into second death, so we cannot presume that the word “kill” refers to second death.
All nations streaming to the kingdom of Isa 2:2 is not the Great Crowd. The Great Crowd is “taken out of every nation…” just as is the “anointed bride of Christ out of every nation…” Rev 5:9. Then verse 10 describes them as kings and priests. Earth’s future kings and priests will be in heaven. They are not the nations flowing to Jerusalem, any more than are the Great Crowd who are also in heaven (Rev 19:1 – Great Crowd same Greek word as Rev 7:9)