The July 15 2013 “Study Edition” reveals “new light” unveiled at the October 5th 2012 Annual Meeting, at which it was announced that the Governing Body is now considered the “faithful and discreet slave” – the spiritual overlords of the nearly 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.
You can find the July15, 2013 Watchtower Study Edition by CLICKING HERE:
We have had a poll in the upper left side of the Website for several months asking the question, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE. As of April 10, 2013, 886 visitors have voted. 355 or 40% of the voters identified the Governing Body as the Faithful and Discreet Slave. If 40% of the visitors on our website believed it before the announcement, it is a reasonable deduction that a far higher percentage of JWs in the Watchtower organization believed it before it was announced. Does this suggest that the organization has been subtly implying the idea for a long time now? Was this so that the announcement would be expected rather than received as shocking and surprising news?
As a summary, the three articles in the July Watchtower indicate changes in several points of view:
1. The great tribulation did not begin in 1914, but is a future event
2. The great tribulation only begins when the United Nations attacks world religion (they used the expression “nominal Christians” an expression from the early Watchtower days.)
3. The judgment of the “sheep and the goats” also is not occurring now, but only once the great tribulation begins.
4. The “Faithful and Discreet Slave” is no longer simply the anointed, but only the Governing Body who are dispensing the “spiritual food”.
5. There is no “evil slave class” – a significant change. (This is no help to the early Bible Students (now passed away) who were charged with being Evil Slaves for resisting the sweeping changes.)
They have discarded important views regarding 1914, as well as changing ideas relating to the “inspection of the temple” period of 1918 to 1919. This is quite significant. It appears that they are laying the groundwork for a very long future period when all of the old-timers have died off but the organization remains. They are also suggesting that the Governing Body members will receive a special appointment different from others of the anointed. This is weird stuff, but most faithful JWs will rejoice in the new light.
Peter you may come in at any time, seems fair to me.
Colossians 4:1,”Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal.”
Lets first examine some of the last thoughts of Brother Russell. First his humility. Oct 1, 1916,”Considering that this Volume was written twenty years ago, none need be surprised to find that some of its statements, although startlingly strong, come short now of the full Truth.” Author’s forward page iii Vol. IV.
Would this mean is group were not God’s organization? Oh someone mentioned in I believe 1885 or 1895 he spoke against organization.
Now to be fair did he speak against idolatry? Vol II page 153 he has Rev 21:8 listed but not that word, but the verse for those to look up. And he uses that verse again on page 107,144 Vol. I. But only shows the seriousness of doing the things mentioned in the Bible there. Rev 21:8,”and idolators.”
So now to be fair we look at the word organization something not as serious as Rev 21:8 where he says they go to the second death, but those in organizations will be given a chance in the kingdom.
For one, he would not add that word to Rev 21:8.
So we have seen him use Rev 21:8 and show the seriousness. Lets look at all those words there Peter. “liars,abominable, whoremongers, murderers,sorcerers and idolaters.
Where do we find him using these words all the time? I don’t find it. But a word I do find him using is organization.
STUDY V book VI page 22 in the back read sub-heading, THE ORGANIZATION OF THE NEW CREATION.
On page 235 he writes,”It is to the New Testament that we must look particularliy for our directions respecting the organization and rules of the Church during the days of her humiliation and sacrificing. The next thing he writes has many not likeing it. “The fact that these rules are not laid down in a compact form must not deter us from expecting and finding that they are, nevertheless,a complete system.”
Yes a complete system is used by Go’s organzation to control people. No wfor those who say he used the word in a bad way. Same book. page 23 in the back,”What spirit led gradually to the organization of the great Anti-Christ? page 201,”It was not long after the apostles fell asleep, we may be sure, until the spirit of rivalry under the guidance of the Adversary led step by step to the ultimate organization of the great Antichrist system-Papacy. Its organization, as we have already seen was not effected instantly.”
So Peter after listening to Larry McClellen for 1 hour and a quarter today from a L.A. convention and having him guide all in using the manna and such to start their day, it was done so in an organized way. You might want to check with that Bible Student.
I hopes this help you.
Henry
Henry – Are your comments an attempt to answer my questions? Here is what I asked you:
Do you believe that the Watchtower Organizatuon is Jehovah’s visible organization on earth? If so, how would you support from scriptures that Jehovah has an organization on earth and also that it is the JW Organization?
You did not directly answer my questions. I am having a hard time following your response. I think you may be directing us to Brother Russell’s words about organization and a BS elder’s comments about rebuking to imply that Brother Russell and Bible Students support the idea of a JW type organization by our own words. Is that what you are trying to say? I don’t know. If so, you are taking comments out of context.
Yes, the Lord’s people can be organized in the spirit of Christian liberty without being a part of an organization. The Anointed (the prospective bride of Christ) are unified by the drawing power of the Holy Spirit and by love. In Volume 6 Brother Russell clearly taught that organized religion was the spirit of bondage and anti-christ.
Check out this link to find out what Brother Russell taught about organization.
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/06/07/did-c-t-russell-believe-that-the-watchtower-was-jehovah%e2%80%99s-organization-governing-the-anointed-and-great-crowd/
Dear Henry:
I know Br. Larry and I imagine Br. Peter does as well and I think he would blanch at your suggestion. You seem to be conflating two nuances of the word “organization” to fallaciously draw the conclusion that any evidence of organization at any level necessarily means that one has an organization, such as the Watchtower. You do this to try and convince us that we have something akin to the Watchtower. Both your premises and the logic which flow therefrom are faulty.
The Bible Students trust God and his son to know how to direct the Church themselves. We never say we don’t do things in an organized way, anytime a group of people get together to help each other towards a goal some form of direction and organizing is necessary. But that doesn’t imply we have an organization in the sense you seem determined to prove. The early church was founded as a movement with things “organized” in a horizontal manner. That means authority was largely local and those in leadership were responsible both to God and those they led.
At the time God used revelations through the Holy Spirit to direct the church. Since we now have the completed Bible that isn’t really necessary, which is something you should understand in connection with what the Society teaches regarding the gifts of the Spirit. God still directs his congregations through his holy Spirit, through the prompting of the individual congregations, including all members. Thus the horizontal authority of the early Church is still preserved and used.
As you should be aware the Watchtower has abandoned it’s belief that the early church was a top-down organization with its own governing body directing the work. They now teach that began in the early 1920s with Rutherford and his cronies. That, by the way, is a backhanded admission that Brother Russell did not run a vertically oriented and authoritative organization. The congregations were autonomous and the Pastor respected that as the topic Brother Peter directed you to explains. In case you don’t see it, here’s the link again:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/06/07/did-c-t-russell-believe-that-the-watchtower-was-jehovah%e2%80%99s-organization-governing-the-anointed-and-great-crowd/
To Jacuelin
You mentioned they are concerned that they leave and go seek Christ.
Does the Bible show concern for people leaving the faith?
Deuteronomy 32:18,”Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.”
On the other hand, PS 37:28,”For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.”
Heb 13:5,”and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”
Heb 10:26,”For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifices for sin.”
Heb 6:6,”If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentence; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Verse 4 shows they had the heavenly gift.
Verse 10,”For God is not unrighteous to forget your work.”
Do you find this confusing? Is the Bible showing concern for people not only leaving the truth but leaving the heavenly call? If the ANSWER is yes, then is it wrong for those taking the lead to warn the sheep about falling away?
So as I am listening to Larry McClellen at the L.A. CONVENTION should I say it is wrong to listen to a man and others who are commenting about my conscience?
But it was awesome to hear him quote from Brother Russell. Then a lady had a bad expierence about this one who wants to preach and hand out tracts. He said even elders have to rebuke. She said the whole class is against him. Some elders may get together and counsel him.
Did you mean apostate, I can’t find apolgistic in my Bible.
Thank you
Henry
Henry – Jacqueline can answer, however, let me ask you questions? Do you believe that the Watchtower Organizatuon is Jehovah’s visible organization on earth? If so, how would you support from scriptures that Jehovah has an organization on eath and also that it is the JW Organization?
Henry hello, I meant apologist, I don’t plant hostile labels like apostate on person’s trying to learn about God and especially Christ.
Apologist writes or speaks in defense of something or someone else. The society used some brothers in the past to go on internet sites to refute on the forums. I asked only because if you were it would explain your defense of the society. I just asked for my own info.
Henry I have not left the truth. I worship Jehovah and accept Jesus as my savior and the means to get to Jehovah. I associate with those that accept the word of God as the final say and every man be proved wrong against it. It seems you and I are on the same page in a way and yet not. But welcome Henry to the site.
I will back out now and let Br. Peter, Stanley and others dialogue and I will follow. And to be totally truthful I still have remnants of my JW family here and this weekend Another segment of JW family and I will be going camping. Also for the next two days I will have family from the area attempt to as they say talk some sense into me. There are elders in this bunch so I need to prepare for them tonight and their overnight visit into tomorrow. So I will be available after the weekend. You take Care and so glad to hear you are indeed checking out the talks etc on this site. That shows soundness of mind, to check it out like the Bereans. Peace, Jacqueline
Henry- You asked, “Does the Bible show concern for people leaving the faith?” You provided scriptures showing two perspectives – Jehovah’s compassion and His severe judgement. You seem to conclude rhetorically that it is okay for those taking the lead to warn the sheep about falling away.
You make a logical pesentation. I appreciate how you are looking to the scriptures for answers.
First of all, you ask about “those taking the lead” warning the sheep. I think you are probably talking about elders, overseers and the Governing Body. Russell warned of the dangers of clergy verses laity. I think elders should Biblicly be elected by a majority of the congregation. Of course, in good conscience, these elders may feel compelled to warn the flock of danger. However, the way they can best take the lead is by setting a good example of Christian humility and behavior.
1 Peter 5:2-3 AMP “Tend (nurture, guard, guide, and fold) the flock of God that is [your responsibility], not by coercion or constraint, but willingly; not dishonorably motivated by the advantages and profits [belonging to the office], but eagerly and cheerfully; Not domineering [as arrogant, dictatorial, and overbearing persons] over those in your charge, but being examples (patterns and models of Christian living) to the flock (the congregation).”
I think it is important to understand that the general world of mankind and even the wicked are not subject now to eternal destruction. They will all come back to Paradise Earth for a period of repentence, learning righteousness and then the final eternal judgment. See link:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
The only people now subject to eternal final destruction are the Anointed (holy spirit begotten) running for the heavenly call (144, 000). You cited scriptures applying to second death. Since Penticost, only the Anointed are subject to the judgment of those verses. Let me demonstrate:
Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
Notice, this is talking about “partakers of the Holy Spirit” (the Anointed)
Hebrews 10:29 NASB “How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
Only the Anointed are sanctified by the blood of the covenant.
2 Peter 2:1 NASB “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”
Notice it speaks of “denying the Master who bought them.” Only the Anointed have been purchses by Jesus blood now (Acts 20:28). For others it is future.
Henry to Jacueline
Rev 21:2,22,”the holy city.” “for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”
The temple that Solomon built was awesome. But the one in Revelation is no comparison, much , much, greater.
The builder of the first temple was Solomon. 2 Chron 9:22,”And king Solomon passed all the kings of the eart in riches.” Why he received a gift of $46,242,000 dollars, because of inflation you may triple that amount.
All that wealth, to build temple. And lead the true worshippers. Today some of the remaining bride class which are conected to the Revelation temple which is far superior, receive gifts also, and they to lead people in worship. Just like in Solomon’s day the people caused problems and he had to deal with it. So today with the remnant taking the lead of the bride class.
But some of these modern day problems are huge. How huge was this one? “Bring forth the man.” “do not do this folly.” here is my daughter.”abused her all the night.” Judges 19:22,23,25.
If you read this account you will say it is sad that God’s people could do that. After that thousands lost their lives. Many wifes and children lost their father. Bad to the bone. There are many more sad sad stries committed back there in the Hebrew scriptures. Then we find them Killing God’s Son. Can it get any worse. These are,or were God’s people. Then Paul handed one over to the Devil for doing bad, happily he repented and was forgiven but it put a stain on the brothers. Others lrft the truth and dragged some others with them and again it put a stain on the brothers. How can you have God when you have all them problems is what the people would say. I like my religion.
So if someone says to me, WT has money and people who have done bad things. Would be a reason to walk away. God would ask me, why did you ever walk in the way, you new Solomon built the temple, you new it took money to do it, you new their was always people of God’s causing bad problems, he would say, why are you so righteous now because WT has money and people doing bad things. Are they not doing the world wide preaching work. Surely it cost money to carry that out does it not?
I would say, you got me God, I guess thats why no one else is doing the work.
Hi Henry, nice seeing your name on the post.(:) I think you misunderstand me, I know early Christians preached the Good News thru out the world. It is being done now also. I don’t really care that the watchtower society has money for they are receiving their reward now for the good they do and in the Millenium along with others they can learn exactly how to serve perfectly. Facts are not judgements. It is the adherents of the organization that will questions others that have chosen to leave an organization. They are concerned that witnesses leave and go seek Christ. Most that have left really don’t bother them, they give damage control talks to keep the masses. All religions don’t exert that type of control when a person worships Jehovah and Christ aside from being in the org.
Philippians 2:10,11: “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth 11. and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD the FATHER.”
This is really the main concern of a Christian. Facts stated in the Bible is for our benefit to give us hope and faith. The downward spiral of men as evidenced from some of your citations is why Christ came to deliver us and give us hope to be perfect and not sin. 1Peter 4:8 says love covers a multitude of sins. So we all have to be forgiving but we can get out of the way of abuse toward us. Early Christians hide in caves.
Henry, do you suppose that the Jehovah witness organization is the only way to get to God or please him well?
1Peter 3:19-22 shows that thru the resurrection of Jesus our baptism is a promise made to God of a good conscience. 22: He is at the right hand of God and angels and ALL authorities and powers are made subject to him.
The governing body has no authority over the body of Christ to make rules and discipline them. Give me scriptural support that mentions the governing body with such authority if you could please Henry. Circular reasoning will not do.
“Are they not doing the world wide preaching work. Surely it cost money to carry that out does it not?”Billions, nope that is greed and they don’t pay pensions or hrlp the CO, DO at all when they leave.
Act2:43 shows money was needed to help those remain to get the good news, so brothers sold their belongings for this purpose not for profit to put the brothers in luxury living for preaching.
The entire book of Acts shows how when the holy spirit was received they were able to preach throughout the world. The brothers didn’t have silver of Gold to give but they gave what they had. There is nothing wrong with having money for they are getting paid for their services.
Henry are you saying I or we have walked away from Jehovah God and Jesus? If so you are mistaken. Do I worship and hold high those that have supplanted Jesus (governingbody) in the minds of the JW? No I do not!
You, however Henry may do so if you wish, you will be in the Millenium as Jesus ransomed Adam and every offspring that came from him. Worship of these men is not a sin to Gehenna. It is one of the things on the broad way, if you die it is to Sheol, Hades that one enters, there is still hope in Christ.
May I ask you sincerely, Henry, What has caused this distress in you about the organization or even if that is it. Maybe this conversation can go somewhere if we level with each other in LOVE. I am very open in my story, I am no longer a JW because of the Governingbody supplanting Jesus, twisted doctrines manipulating and changing scriptures to support their teaching. The horrendous, wicked blood doctrine that has caused many children and adults to die early. The pedophile issue, belonging to the UN as a NGO and among other things their SS Troops the CO,DO, most elders and other Catholic organization tactics. Their punishment for sins and making brothers feel they have to forgive in a year or so then put on reproof for another year. This is about control, the penal system uses this to control the behavior of criminals and it works. So I have put mine on the table.
Are you an apologist for the watchtower?
You are on this site so there is a problem Henry and that’s okay. I, we are not your enemy here, if fact some of us are guessing that you are young maybe?(Under 40). I see you not asking me so much why I would leave because of some things but is it wrong if YOU separate YOURSELF? You have no doubt had an experience that has caused your distress. Maybe I am wrong Henry but that’s what I am getting from closely reading your words and between the lines. (yes there is stuff between lines. lol)
I will Wait for your reply in love Jacqueline
Thank you for your info. But if I fo;;owed what you said, I would be following a person and not Jesus. Right? And don’t Bible students receive money when you order their literature? But JWs give it away don’t they? Did you not in one of your last posts say JWs , Bible Students and others are preaching the kingdom of God? Isn’t it good if they are all doing it? Or did you change your mind on that one?
Appreciate your feed back, but like you I have questions to.
Henry
Henry in the space where it ask for your name, write Henry there otherwise it comes up anonymous and when we get a new person and they use anon, then it can be confusing for some. Not for Me or Br. Peter because we know which one. Just a note as there are people following the conversation. Thanks in advance if you want to do this.
Henry, sometimes it is difficult for a person that lived thru WW1 and WW2 or the holocaust to help persons to see what the history of those times were like. So here is some history for you.
For instance you asked don”t JW give their literature away? Jimmy Swaggart had as his witness the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society against the courts. The small amounts of money he got in netted millions and they wanted taxes on those excesses. This would hurt the watchtower society that had already lost this battle in France. Swaggart lost so he and any like him (watchtower society) would have to pay taxes if they asked for a specific amount, thus witnesses went to the donation system. History you might not know.
Now for the math lesson called the “Power of numbers”. 7 million people selling from door to door and buying them first from the kingdom hall is an immense sum of money. If a listening audience of 7 million gave you $1 dollar it would be better than 5,000 people giving you ten dollars. Why? because anybody will give you a dollar but only a few will give 10 dollars. So TV Televangels and large corporations asked for a little amount but the government saw they amassed wealth by the power of numbers method.
The Bible students print on fairly small presses and turn no profit. If you don’t have the donation to cover cost of printing they will send free and subsidize it themselves. IE:6 volume set of SITS at the state fair is only $5.00 for the set. That does not cover the cost of printing. The watchtower society charged publishers.03 and various amounts for the magazines and books before they were taken to the public.
Other large magazine and book publishing companies cost for instance on a mag like the watchtower was .03 also to produce. Out of this they paid salaries, insurance benefits and people to upkeep and fix things.
THE SOCIETY HAD FREE LABOR ON EVERYTHING. The government can better explain this to you, the reason you see the donation arrangement (and they do ask for a donation, Henry but will give to you anyway at no cost or the society will have to pay taxes).
The Bible Students don’t even have the huge mass worker bees in the book selling business to turn a profit. Most religions really don’t either. Tele evangelist and the Watchtower organization had it down pat. Remember France situation? They had to pay taxes on the excess amounts of money.
BTW, Henry it is not my desire to sway you away from your organization or system of beliefs. I am only here to help those that have noticed a problem and want a landing pad to move forward.
You don’t seem to fall in that category and I don’t want to bring out all the underbelly, money making tactics of our corporate systems in America, who by the way are in business to make money.
Religion should not be in business to make money however and live in absolute luxury and not work. Yes, at Bethel headquarters a few live off the work of many. It is a good gig, they are receiving their pay now for the good they are doing. In the Millenium they too will learn the way of Jehovah and money won’t be an issue. I am just stating facts. As a Bible Student I would not personnaly make the bold statements that the watchtower makes that they alone are the only 9 men on this earth that God accepts as interpreters of the scriptures and even if you can prove them wrong by scripture you must teach the wrong doctrine until they change it. Do not run ahead of the organization but ignore the bible until they give the okay. Jacqueline
To Jacquelin from Henry
Will try to discususs a few things as it was a bit confusing. Most people don’t hate Jesus and Jehovah.
Then let me ask you. With so many, many, wrong roads to take,and many,many, people saying to Jesus Lord, Lord, did we not do these things in your name, and he replies I never new you get away from me you workers of iniquity. Mt 7:13,14;21-23.
It looks like they don’t hate Jesus, but what went wrong so they will get the results as thought they hated Jesus?
And another question for you, if you don’t mind? Didose verses 21-23 what he said they didn’t do in his name? Preaching the Kingdom of God! Why is that?
Whereas the one road leading to life is cramped and few finding it. And JWs are few compared to the population and are preaching the good news of the kingdom. A perfect fit to Scripture. Why is that?
Thank you
Henry
Matt. 7:13 “Wide is the gate” First entered by our father Adam. “Broad is the way” The downward path in which all of Adam’s posterity was born. Broad it gets as more humans are born on this downward spiral to the tomb. The easy selfish worldly way of self gratification, pride, lust, sin, selfishness etc. A very broad road to contain all these people from Adam to now, billions. The way that seems right to the majority of mankind leads to Adamic death and most do not seek to restrain themselves and go down the broad road to death faster.
Matt 7:14 “Straight is the gate” Narrow is the way”,. But those willing to consecrate their lives and set their standards high can get the reward of Anointing and acceptance in the bride of Christ. Few will make it as shown by the smaller number of 144,000. Not many are willing to suffer for Christ sake to get on this narrow way.
Many churches including Jehovah witnesses lower the standards and boast of the big numbers filling their Kingdom halls and conventions. Yet the governing body laments and boasts that they have to disfellowship at least 40,000- 60,000 each year. (These are old figures, some estimate 80,000-100,000 a year now). So at any given time the witnesses admit they have a huge number of ones not reaching out for this narrow and straight way of living. But that’s okay as the ransom will still cover all our sins and either by resurrection or surviving Armageddon and the great time of trouble mankind will be in paradise when the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah. AND THEN THE WORLD WILL BE ON TRIAL FOR THEIR LIFE.
Matt. 7:21-23 Not everyone with their names on the church rolls or JW publisher record cards will be accepted into the kingdom of the heavens in joint heirship with Christ as his bride. Character development is not stressed by JW in fact J Rutherford said “We are characters!” and stopped stressing a personal relationship with God but instead a herd mentality, an organization mentality with men at the top telling you what the scriptures mean. So few will find the road lead by the spirit of truth and will go with the pack or herd down Adamic death huge road. Those finding the narrow way will rise in an instant in the twinkling of an eye, not sleep now in Adamic death.
“powerful works in his name,”: Many have acknowledged Christ in some way, some philantrophic and reform work in a great way, all this done quite public and open. At the close of the gospel age, (which we are in now) “Lord, Lord” they have a form of Godliness but it was not according to what Jesus said. Just preaching and performing miracles an helping religiously will not guarantee heavenly anointing. Many say in the name of Religion they are doing thus and so. Even killing and persecuting as the Catholics did down thru the centuries. Mother Theresa, many more did wonderful works in his name but proved false to the true knowledge of what is really taught in scripture.
Judas Iscariot worked miracles in Jesus name.
7:23 “I never knew you”. Jesus never approved of all this great preaching although he allowed it to spread the word. Selling pamphets to make Billions and building huge complexes to amass wealth and stature in this world is not approved by Jesus.(Watchtower society in New York was know as Vatican City by news media in America) Huge masses of people who to fill the coffers of the merchants during the conventions, will be missed when the attack on the great systems of religion is accomplished.
Make a Google Alert to receive everyday and you will see the cities saying we will get in the black when the witnesses conventions come.NEVER HAVE I EVER SEEN THEM SAY THEY WILL HELP CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF THE PEOPLE IN OUR CITY THIS SUMMMER. IT IS ABOUT MONEY! Look at the dress of most of the sisters and come let me know what you think. (You know what I am talking about, CO and DO and magazines lament this all the time).
Isa 30:21 This is the WAY walk in it.
Isa35:8,9 Is the time you speak of: “The Way of Holiness” it will be called in which no follish ones will be there because the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah and know the truth about God.
No Christian Religion on the earth has it all right as the complete truth contained in the Bible will be known in the millennium but some don’t even try. They see a money making scheme and get sidetracked. Then when their lack of paying attention to what types of character development is going on among their members and it starts ripping their money away in pedophile lawsuits and Blood wrongful death lawsuits and slander and destruction of families, hate talks start. They find themselves in a mess and have to do containment talks to keep their wealth giving members. Millions are taken in at the district conventions that’s why the numbers game is important.
I could go on and on but, you can make your own discision. I am not trying to make your religion a problem for you, but for those that see the problem we are here to help them find a way back to Jesus not an organization. The Holy Spirit of God will start working in their lives and with them if they recognize Jesus instead of men as their head of the body of Christ. Jacqueline.
To Jacquelin from Henry
Did Jesus say the following? John 14:12,”I say unto you;He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”
Does it not show Jesus would have believers doing the works? And even on a greater scale? Did Jesus tell this preaching so no one would listen? Of coarse not. But did people likewise disagree with the preaching?
John 15:24,”If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now they have both seen and hated both me and the Father.”
Has this ever happened to God’s people before Jesus? Jer 6:17,”Also I set watchmen over you, saying,Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, we will not hearken.” So we see it has happened before. How did they treat the watchmens message or sayings?
Jer 6:19,”because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.”So did they still have belief in God? Jer 6:20,”your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.”
Their worship was in vain. Have their been Christians who have done the works? Do we know everyone of them? Yes and no. But if one asked, Did C.T.R. do the works, some would say yes without a doubt.
But lets say C.T.R. never did a thing with the Bible. JWs would not exist. Hows that. J.F.R. would never had receiver the volumes and would probaly been just a lawyer. Another way to look at it is the eight Bible writers of the New Testament. Would if not one of them did the works? There would not be any Christianity.
So rather than look at what the faithful and discreet slave is called, look and see if they are doing the works. Example look at it this way. Did Jesus make things hard to understand by saying their would be a faithful slave? Some would es, some would say they could careless, others would say I want to know. What would be their primary work? He is mentioned at Mt 24:45 and Jesus said what the work would be at Mt 24:14. He also showed that at Mt 24:24 there would be those who try and get people away from it.
But to some it up, God sent prophets to his people many,many, times. Some listen some don’t. But for the finally, it would be worldwide. And we have to individually make that choice. Which ones are the Watchmen.
Thank you
Henry
Henry, Let me start off by saying no one is disagreeing with Jesus, Jehovah or the bible. This discussion is about a group of men like the pope that says they have divine authority to decide and interpret scripture for all of the body of Christ and subject themselves to no one not even the Bible until they decide to change a doctrine but I will address each point anyway.
John 14:12 is true and people listened and are listening now.Yes Christianity carried on by the apostles and others shows this scripture is true.
John 15:14 I don’t and I would vouch that most Christians don’t hate Jesus and definitely not Jehovah. But in his day they killed him and those that followed him.
Jer 6:19,20 The Jews rejected Jesus. Their burnt offering were over but they still persisted after the death of Christ so we know this scripture is true.
Yes their worship was in vain, burnt offering were no longer accepted as Jesus fulfilled the law.
Luke 19:40 “But in reply he said:” I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out” Christianity was introduced by Christ, he was faithful and it’s existence and what it will accomplish thru Christ does not hinge on any men. So I do not agree with you on your summation “There would not be any Christianity.”
Matt. 24:14 The gospel of the kingdom is indeed preached by JW, Bible Students also and others and it will end when the Lord says it is accomplished. In fact in the first century they accomplished this also in the known world of that time.
Matt 24:24 False Messiahs: Each church claims to be the body of Christ with an executive or committee as head, as Christ’s representatives in his Body. These are the false Christ, false bodies of Christ with false heads or governingbodies or governments, not authorized by the word. Large and prosperous corporations deceiving millions of Jehovah’s and Christ people.
Even after coming out of anti-Christ systems, there are many false prophets who assume authority to direct the consecrated, teaching theories subversive of the truth and perverting Scriptures to support them.
It has been rumored, aledged, that Br. Herd wants to do away with the no blood false doctrine but didn’t get the two-thirds vote that is needed. with the pedophilia lawsuits and possible wrongful death of thousands of children and adults the money would be gone, so I can see why this would not be approved if true.
Rev. 11:3 ‘And I shall send my 2 witnesses to prophecy” ‘ (THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS). We must listen to the entire Bible I agree. Any body of men that says you must do as we say until we change it, even if you can prove it wrong by scripture. You must not run ahead of the Organization. So The two prophets that we have today like the prophets before the printing press on feet we must obey those sent and recorded for our benefit from Jehovah.
SO, I ask you what has this to do with the faithful and discreet slave? I have tried to answer you point by point and not use circular reasoning that assumes one thing is true therefore the other based on that false assumption is true.
Isa 56:8-12 Blind watchmen of Israel
Isa. 21:11 Christ the great watchman shall at the dawn of the day of Millenium guide us to light out of the night.
The governing body of J Witnesses boasts of it’s authority, Not Christ. And any are free to follow just as David Koresh and Jim Jones lead many as their leader to horrible endings. Christ is our leader not men.
PS: What was the spirit behind the original law on abstaining from blood? After the flood, Noah and his family are allowed to consume animal meat protein to supplement their dietary needs. This would involve hunting, killing and consuming the animal. The exception was to pour out the blood as a sign of respect for the sanctity of life. This act would also discourage the wanton slaughter of animals for the thrill of the game. We can see how this was cast negatively in the case of Nimrod who the bible describes as a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah. His blood lust for killing animals also translated into hunting down and killing fellow humans. So again, what is the spirit behind the law? Wasn’t it about respect and sanctity of life, so precious it should not be taken for granted. How is this compatible with the JW teaching of refusing a life-saving medical treatment as in the case of a blood transfusion? How can letting a child die by misapplying a law which in spirit is saying the opposite be justified?
It is about the sanctity of LIFE not the liquid blood but what it represented. We know blood was splashed on the doorposts at the exodus. Christ poured out his blood so that we might live. Unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place. Quite the opposite of the spirit of the prohibition, it is about respect for life not stopping the saving of life. Just thinking out loud.
I have often said the governing body has substituted themselves for Jesus, I think some of these quotations prove partially that point. It is best to have these direct quotations.
Picture of Jesus Christ on this page is not inserted here as it is difficult to do, so at least know there is a picture of him on this page so no misunderstanding. From April 15th, 2013 pg 29.
1.”The Faithful Slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers at this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the Faithful Slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel. Matt 4:4; John 17:3.
Watchtower July 15, 2013, page 20, paragraph
2. The other sheep should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed brothers still on earth.
Watchtower March 15, 2012, page 20, paragraph 2.
3. Through the new covenant, Jehovah makes blessings available to many by means of a few. Those in the covenant are few, 144,000 Through them, (FDS class, now the Governing Body), millions from all nations will be blessed with everlasting life on an earthly paradise……
Watchtower March 1st, 2012, page 17, section 3.
4. We need to obey the Faithful and Discreet Slave to have Jehovah’s approval.
Watchtower July 15, 2011, page 24.
5. Among those “gifts in men” are the members of the Governing Body, who act in a representative way for the entire Christian congregation, (Acts 15: 2, 6). In fact, our attitude towards Christ’s spiritual brothers is a major factor that will determine how we will be judged in the coming great tribulation, (Matt 25:34-40). Thus one aspect of the way we gain a blessing is by giving our loyal support to God’s anointed ones.
Watchtower December 15, 2010, page 20, paragrap19.
6. The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their leader Christ.
Watchtower September 15, 2010, page 23, paragraph 8.
7. The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God’s Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah – Isa 54:13w
Watchtower September 15, 2010, page 13, paragraph 8.
8. We cannot hope to acquire a good relationship with Jehovah if we ignore those whom Jesus has appointed to care for his belongings. Without the assistance of the “faithful and discreet slave” (now an 8 man Governing Body), we would neither understand the full import of what we read in God’s Word nor know how to apply it. (Matt 24:45-47).
Watchtower September 15, 2010. page 8, paragraph 7.
So the last quotation negates John 14:26, James 1:5 and 1John 2:27
Sorry to get off topic, but just wanted to let this be known….The Conspiracy of Habakkuk 1:12. Says: “My HOLY ONE you do not die” This scripture alone refutes the trinity. For we know for a fact the Jesus the Messiah did DIE for our sins as the scriptures indicate. This verse in Habakkuk unequivocally states that Yahweh does not/can not die, so therefore it debunks the trinity. To our dismay it seems that liberty was taken to change this verse to WE SHALL NOT DIE. This verse is proven erroneous by the fact that the scriptural references to these verses are : Deu 33:27; Isa 40:28; Psalm 90:2. The Hebrews words MIQQEDEM AND OLAM mean: long duration, antiquity, futurity. The footnote on this verse explains the following:
Note: According to the Masora, לא נמוּת stands as תקון סופרים, i.e., correctio scribarum for לא תמוּת, you will not die. These (tikkune sophrim), however, of which the Masora reckons eighteen, are not alterations of original readings proposed by the (sophrim), but simply traditional definitions of what the sacred writers originally intended to write, though they afterwards avoided it or gave a different turn. Thus the prophet intended to write here: “You (God) will not die;” but in the consciousness that this was at variance with the divine decorum, he gave it this turn, “We shall not die.” But this rabbinical conjecture rests upon the erroneous assumption that מקּדם is a predicate, and the thought of the question is this: “You are from of old, You Yahweh my God, my Holy One,” according to which לא תמוּת would be an exegesis of מקּדם, which is evidently false.( For the subject is about Yahweh’s eternalness and so therefore the predicate would imply Yahweh YOU DO NOT DIE. )
Keefa – These translations agree:
BBE – Are you not eternal, O Lord my God, my Holy One? for you there is no death.
NWT – Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.
Rotherham – Art not, thou, from of old, O Yahweh, my God, my Holy One? Thou diest not!
RVIC – Art not thou from everlasting, O jehovah my God, my Holy One? thou diest not.
Find the RVIC translation here: http://www.heraldmag.org/rvic/rvic.htm
Note from the Companion Bible: “we shall not die. – This is one of the eighteen emendations of the Sopherim (see Ap. 33), which they say they made because it was considered offensive to say this of Jehovah; hence the world of the primitive text “who diest not” was changed to “does die not” (rendered in A.V., R.V., and American R.V., “we shall not die”). This is the only one of the eighteen emendations which the R.V. and the American R.V. notice and speak of it in the margin as “an ancient Jewish tradition”, whereas a list of such emendations is given in the Massorah. The change from the second person to the first did more than avoid the supposed irreverent expression; it transferred to mortal men the truth which apart from resurrection pertains to God alone, “Who only hath immortality” (1 Tim 6:16). Cp. 1 Cor 15:53, 54” Find here: http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/
Thank you Peter from Henry
About the 2034 date dat. First I apolgize about the Bible Students date change. It has 6,000 years ending in 2043. Will give some of the info from a 80 page report. We have placed alot of effort into looking into the questions that have come up in regard to the chronology as found in the second volume.
that would make 6,000 years end 170 years ;ater than in the second volume,in 2043 A.D.
The dating for the 2520 years would still work, except that the date 607 BC would start 19-20 years earlier at the first attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Palestine and not at the carrying away to Babylon.
Since the time of Pastor Russell, a great deal of additional historical records have been found. that show th7 BC is the correct date for that event. Alot more in the pages but changes were made.
AS to the 2003 WT it would be the 12/15 one. “Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.(Gen 6:3) The issuance of this divine degree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world.”
In the article it mentioned 1914 and showed it about 90 years along. The reader who figured 120 = 1914=2034 did a good job of math. But the article didn’t say that. And lets say his math is right, he still has to explain this verse. Mat 24:22,”And except those days should be shortened,there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.”
That has no bearing on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. For the elect had left 4 years earlier in 66 C.E. But today with most of the elect about 60 to 70 years old, they could easily make it to 2034, for it would put them to 80 or 90 years old.
But that great crowd which no man could number would not be there. Why not? Lets reason. If you go and read that WT 12:15 you will see why that destruction was forth coming. If this present system were to continue on for 21 more years, I can’t even imagine how bad it would be. If anyone reading this can’t see in the news that we are skating right into the last days of Noah,they need help badly,right now. No they should not think it is a joke like Lots to sons-in-laws at Sodom’s destruction. This is serious.
So one reasons, why do those elect not have to live out their live times to earn their crown. Well you would have to talk to the ones in charge. God and His Son. Logically what ever trials and tribs they have gone throught and yet will will be enought to satisfy the judges and thus he can cut it short and a great crowd will be saved. But don’t say JWs say 2034.
Henry – I think Rolf Furuli’s books expose the errors in the commonly accepted secular chronology:
2012 – Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Persian Chronology Compared with the Chronology of the Bible, Volume 1: Persian Chronology and the Length of the Babylonian Exile of the Jews, Second edition ISBN 978-82-92978-03-0
2012 – Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Persian Chronology Compared with the Chronology of the Bible, Volume 2: Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology, Second edition ISBN 978-82-92978-04-7
Also – see the Jerry Leslie study on “Dating the Desolation here: http://www.biblechronology.org/studies.html
Peter from Henry
Not to long ago someone ,I think reslight said that in 1910 C.T.Russell changed the outcome for 1914. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you thanked him and agreed with him. Also one of the dates given by Keepha was 2034. As to that date I have never heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses predicting anything about it. I have seen a well known Bible Student use that date. Out od respect for that person I will leave the name out, for he is like you very dedicated to the Bible Student Movement.
Again I stand to be corrected, but please explain 2034 date.
Thank you
Henry
Henry,
Russell never changed the 1914 date.
Here is what reslight said on 6/21: ” We should note that, in 1904, ten years before 1914, Russell reveresed his earlier conclusion that 1914 was to see the end of the time of trouble, and adopted the conclusion that the end of the Gentile Times would see the beginning of the time of trouble. Thus, from 1904 onward, Russell was not expecting that 1914 would see the full end of the Gentile Kingdoms, and this can be seen in many statements that he made between 1904 and 1914.”
Henry – Regarding 2034 – The December 2003 Watchtower suggests adding 120 years to 1914 to arrive at the earthly kingdom. Some Bible Students have looked at that as a possible date. In the Days of Noah, man was given 120 years before the flood. Does this mean Armageddon will arrive in 2034? I do not really know. The proposal is not without merit.