The suggested answers provided to all questions below are based on and in harmony with the views of the original Watchtower Bible and Tract Society when under the guidance of Pastor Charles Taze Russell. Comments will often include a link to Pastor Russell’s own explanation. However, in any case, we leave your conclusions to your own personal study, prayer, conscience and the influence of the Holy Spirit.
- Who are the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have created this website?
- Why have the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses set up this site? What is your purpose?
- Should we really want to be on earth rather than heaven? Does the Bible give us that option?
- Are the Great Crowd the same as all the people in Paradise Earth?
- What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?
- Is the Great Crowd to be in heaven or on earth?
- Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16?
- What happens to Anointed who do not make the 144,000
- As the Path Shines Brighter, does the Truth Change?
- Why does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering?
- What is the future mission of the Anointed for which they are now being prepared?
- Will Present Unbelievers Serve and Worship Jehovah on Paradise Earth?
- Will Everyone Be Resurrected from the Dead?
- Have People Received Final Judgment for the Past 6,000 or will they have an Opportunity for Judgment and Restitution on Paradise Earth?
- Will the wicked get an opportunity to repent in Paradise earth?
- Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
- Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?
- What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?
“I don’t think the Aramaic is an issue. The Bible as written in Greek is inspired and we can trust that the correct words were used and base our faith on that. Otherwise we make assumptions about the Aramaic and rationalize any reading we want to come up with.”
While I agree that the Bible is inspired, I also realize that there are mistakes in the translations. For instance Mat 2:16 states that Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, while Luke 3:23 states that Heli was Joseph’s father. Mat 2:17 says there were 14 generations from the exile of Babylon to the Messiah, but if you count the generations there are only 13. Mat 27:9 credits the prophecy to Jeremiah while actually it was to Zechariah – 11:12-13. Many people think that Mat 28:19 was added to the gospel and not originally a part of it, as well as Mt 24:3. Mat combines many parts of Luke 17 into the Olivet discourse which Luke puts in a different time frame. Mat also has different wording when compared with Luke. Notice Mt 24:27 compared to Luke 17:24, Mat 24:28 & 40-41 compared to Luke 17:34-37. According to Mark 13:3 only four Apostles asked Jesus regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, therefore the Gospel writers received the information second hand. Matthew is the only one that asks about Jesus return, Mark and Luke don’t. It’s strange that such a subject would be ignored by two out of three writers. Matthew is the only Gospel that uses the word “parousia” Luke uses the word “apocalypse”, you say you are confident that the words were inspired and that Aramaic is not an issue. However, when people put such emphasis on certain words, such as the theory that our Lord’s “parousia” occurred 138 years ago and that His “apocalypse” will occur in the future, then questions arise. Such as, Did Jesus really say there would be two parts to His return, one invisible and one visible? Is this what His disciples understood? Did His disciples even understand that He was leaving? ( see Lk 18:31-34, Lk 24:20-21, John 20:8-10, Acts 1:6). What does “parousia” and “apocalypse” really mean? Are they interchangeable? Are those the only words used to describe Jesus’ return? Can we base such a belief as the Lord having returned in 1874 on one Gospel writer’s choice of a particular word?
Of course this debate has been going on for decades, even before the death of Bro. Russell. The Dawn Bible Students published a booklet entitled “Oh The Blessedness” specifically on this topic – http://www.dawnbible.com/booklets/blessedness.htm
The Free Bible Students also publish a booklet on this subject – http://www.cmfellowship.org/docs/tracts/second-coming.pdf
I’m not trying to change your beliefs or discuss something that has been debated back and forth for years without resolve. I am simply exchanging a point of view. I hope you accept it in the spirit it was given.
Anonymous #2 – Thanks for kindly and intelligently offering some challenging questions. I hope I can find the time to respond to each of your points, as I respectfully have a different point of view. In the mean time, let me share that l believe there are many evidences of Jesus’ invisible return, like the information age, technology, travel by space shuttle, plane and car, the establishment of Israel as a nation, the ability to preach worldwide without being tortured or thrown in jail (anti-Christ persecution period ended), etc. To what do you attribute all these sudden changes in the world if not from Jesus? Is it all coincidence? Is there another cause? If so, what?
I’m not saying that the Biblical prophecies won’t occur, but where does it say that the technologies
of today are due to our Lord’s return. Dan does say in Ch 12 that knowledge will increase and people will run to and fro, but he doesn’t say that will be the sign of Jesus invisible presence. Where does Jesus state he will come twice, once invisibly and the other publicly? Mat 28:20 he stated that he will be with his followers always until the end of the age. If that’s the case then why does he have to return invisibly if he’s always been with us?
Anonymous – When then do you believe is the cause of the increase in technology over the past 100+ years? Why did this not come about thousands of years ago? Is Jesus behind it? What is causing it?
On a different, but related point, yes, I take the “increase in knowledge and travel” of Daniel 12:4 to refer to the increase of knowledge and information on all topics, as in technology for example; plus our advance modes of travel. Brother Russell’s application has only been verified and increased each passing year. You can say this is all a lucky coincidence and Daniel 12:4 is referring to someone else. I can’t convince you. I can only respectfully disagree. To help verify this interpretation, Daniel also refers to Daniel’s people (Israel now a nation), the book of Daniel being unsealed or understood (Volume 3 explains it) and the Great Time of Trouble the world has been in (i.e. WWI, WW2, Cold War, Great Depression, Terrorism, etc. all on an unprecedented world wide scale). All these other prophetic fulfillments in the same time frame, further verify our interpretation of knowledge and travel increasing.
Michael, the great prince is Jeusus, the “prince of peace.” The name Michael means, “who is as God” and who else is as God, but Jesus. So this ties to Jesus second presence.
Yes, Jesus has always invisibly been with us (Matt 28:20) and yes he returns invisibly, in the sense that He takes on Satan, the god of this world. The stone (heavenly kingdom of Dan 2:44) struck the image in 1914, ending the reign of kings, church state rule (iron and clay) and ended the Gentile powers domination over the Jews.
You can say that everything is coincidence and the scriptures are not applying the way we say. As I said, I can’t convince you. You have the liberty in Christ to interpret scriptures as best you can based on how the Holy Spirit is guiding you, your logic and conscience. God bless you.
“Michael, the great prince is Jeusus, the “prince of peace.” The name Michael means, “who is as God” and who else is as God, but Jesus. So this ties to Jesus second presence.”
That’s a speculation that has no Biblical support. The book of Hebrews says otherwise.(Heb 1: 4-6 & 13-14) If you read what I posted you’ll notice I didn’t say anything about coincidence, the prophecies are being fulfilled. But where in the Bible did Jesus say he would return twice?
Dear Anonymous and Br. Peter, I know I can’t stand with such giants as the both of you on prophecy and what is written in Studies in the Scriptures, the greek words etc., but I have something to say concerning understanding the coming of Christ and his presence.The gospel of Matt 1:18-2:15 have reports by angels, shepherds and the astronomers that Jesus this Savour, this Christ was “present, in our midst”. He was here on earth. We have another sighting and wonderment of his presence. Indeed Luke1:39-55 records Zachariah, Elizabeth and Mary only aware that the Lord was in this realm for he leaped in the womb. Luke 2:40 records “the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued on him.” Luke 2:40-52 The child is twelve years old, he left the Jewish leaders “Astonished”, he was here. In reply to his mother that should have remembered his miraculous birth and the other happenings in his life and with Elizabeth, Zachariah, his wisdom, the prophecies of Simeon and Anna,(49) And he said unto them Why is it that ye sought me? KNEW YE NOT THAT I SHOULD BE IN MY FATHER’S HOUSE? Jesus knew what his mission was from the prophecies and what his mother told him about his birth.Matt 1:9-11 we see him getting baptized those present and John saw and knew for sure by the apppearance of the dove that (10)” And straighway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him: 11. and a voice came out of the heavens. Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.” John knew it was him before the dove otherwise why would he say I am not fit to tie your laces on your shoes? He no doubt had done some things not recodred for John to know he was present before the Dove assured him.
As on the first occasion so on the second. He was present before he came riding on a horse in Jerusalem as King for all not just a few to know He was indeed the Christ in Power. The whole world will see it visibly as all saw it Matt 16:16 Peter acknowledged him as the Christ.
So in summary: Some knew Jesus was here, “PRESENT” first in the womb and at least 6 people knew. Then more knew at the temple, then his disciples, John and any others present knew he was present, the astronomers suspected it and knew. Finally as his coronation all knew he was coming in a new way as a KING, to me this is the real mamifestation of him in the first instance a second time now in a visible way at his coronation. So I know he is present now but “Every eye will see him” shortly. I don’t deal in exact dates or live for a date. Personnally I think that is a male thing. I am just glad to know he is getting ready to appear visibly to all as some of us already know he is here doing revealing to those that discern him as at the temple.He has indeed been with Christians down thru the ages but they , until the printing press and the information age could not understand the scriptures as we have since Martin Luther and that glorious printing press. He is present in a new way.
Now that is my little dog in this fight. I know it has holes in it but that’s how I am able to wrap my mind around being present then making your presence revealed to all. Thank you for listening. Jacqueline.
Jacqueline – There are many things you said, that I could not have said any better. In Luke 19:44, Jesus says of the Jews, “you did not recognize the time of your visitation.” So he was present in their midst, but they did not recognize him as the Messiah. So today, Jesus is invisibly present, but just as in Noah’s day, the people “knew not until the flood came.” So it is the Armageddon flood (so to speak) that will reveal Jesus second presence to mankind.
Anonymous – If not from Jesus, you have yet to explain what is causing all these changes on the earth in the past 100+ years, i.e. technology, science, planes and cars, Israel restored, democracies, European empires collapsed and colonies become independent countries (“all the trees blossom” Luke 21:29), etc.
Jesus 2nd presence is broken up into two parts in scripture, first when he raises the sleeping saints, then after the living saints in 1 Thess 4:15-17, then next 2 Thess 1:7,8 and Matt 25:31 when Jesus comes with all his holy messengers (the completed bride of Christ – 144,000). The first part is invisible, the second part is where the complete body of Christ is revealed (apocalypse) to mankind.
Matt 25:31 says, ” …when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels…” So to me the timing of the parable begins with the time Jesus 2nd Advent is revealed to the world, not at the end of the Millennium. We find a similar thought where Jude says he returns with his saints, rather than his angels. Jude 14 says that Enoch prophesied, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” These angels or messengers are the saints, the body of Christ.
Regarding the word “angel” itself, Strong’s #32 is defined as, “a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication, a pastor.” On occasion, the Greek and Hebrew words for angel simply have the meaning of messenger and do not refer to angels. Here are examples where the Greek and Hebrew do not refer to angels:
Matt 11:10 – “For this is he of whom it is written: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’ “ NKJV [Here John is speaking of Jesus]
Luke 7:24 – When the messengers of John had departed, He began to speak to the multitudes concerning John: NKJV
James 2:25 – Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? NKJV
Gen 32:3 – “And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother” KJV
In Revelation 20:1, 2 we have a great angel coming down from heaven with a chain in his hand to bind Satan. This great angel is generally accepted to be Jesus who is the one responsible for binding Satan.
So who is Michael the Archangel (Dan 12:1; Jude 9)? Of the word, “Michael,” Strongs 4317 says “who (is) like God, ” as does Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. Who else is like God, but Jesus himself?
For “Arch” Strongs 757 “a primary verb; to be first (in political rank or power):–reign (rule) over.”
So who else would be Jehovah’s chief messenger, but Jesus himself, the Logos “word” of God (John 1:1).
Hence in 1 Thess 4:17, Jesus descends with the “voice of the archangel,” because he is the chief messenger of Jehovah – the Logos/word of God.
Anonymous2 – Thanks again for being part of a stimulating discussion and we want to here more from you. I hope you will respond to my prior question before commenting on what I am now typing. You said, “Can we base such a belief as the Lord having returned in 1874 on one Gospel writer’s choice of a particular word?” If you think this is the basis of our belief, then you must have never read any of the Studies in the Scriptures (Volumes 2, 3 & 4). This is just one of hundreds of points to consider and it was simply a response to the comment from the first Anonymous.
It seems to me that your comments are getting us back to where we can’t totally trust the Bible because of the translation issues, hence we can’t draw confident conclusions on words. Or at least this is what I think you were saying. I think this is a matter of FAITH and all I can do is encourage you to trust Jehovah that he has safeguarded his Word so that with investigation we can sufficiently determine the original meaning of the passages irregardless of translator bias and error. The manuscripts and resources available to us to verify the accuracy of the original text is enormous. Now to your specific points.
1. Was Heli or Jacob Josheph’s father? A custom of that day was to reckon the genealogy through the wife’s ancestry and treat her husband as in her stead, the son of her father. We would call such a son-in-law. Here Joseph is called the son of Heli, Mary’s father, who was the son of Nathan the son of David.
2. 13 or 14 generations? These generations are carefully arranged in 3 sets of 14 each. This is what is technically known as a “mnemonic.” That is to say that it is so arranged that it would be easy to memorize as very few people had copies of such writings and records. Verse 17 says that the first segment of Israel’s history ends with David, and the second period begins with David. So you have 3 periods of time, each includes 14 generations that will total 42 gen¬erations as per verse 17.
3. Mat 27:9 – Zachariah’s or Jeremiah’s prophecy? – The text you actually says, “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, …” (Matt. 27:9). Why then insist that Jeremiah wrote this? Much of what the ancients said was passed on through oral tradition. To insist that it has to be written, then claim Jeremiah never wrote it, is manipulating the Scriptures to reach a false conclusion.
4. Matt 24 and Luke 17 has different wording: This should not shake our faith in the Bible. Luke 17:11 shows that in this chapter, Jesus was in Samaria and Galilee. Later, Jesus went to Jerusalem and and we see in Luke 21 the same events as Matt 24.
I encourage you to grow your FAITH in Jehovah and to focus on the harmony and beauty in the Bible, not the easily refuted and supposed contradictions.
I also encourage you to study, with your Bible, the Studies in the Scripture series. In Volumes 2-4 the case is made for Jesus invisible presence since 1874. There is lots of evidence in terms of signs, prophecies and time-prophecies. If you think there are any errors in applying scriptures, let us know what you have found to be in error. If you don’t want to take the time to examine the evidence, then just say, “I don’t really know. I don’t want to take the time to examine the evidence.”
Hope this helps. We look forward to hearing more from you.
It’s not my faith in Jehovah that’s the issue, but rather my faith in the writings and beliefs of man. My faith in Jehovah has never wavered. It was not my intention to say that the Bible is not inspired, of course it is. The differences I pointed out have nothing to do with the true message of the Bible; Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, God’s coming kingdom, forgiveness of sins and life everlasting after the resurrection of the dead during Jesus’ Millennial reign. The point I am making is that in the different translations things have been added or mistranslated. Mat 28:19 and 1John 5:7 are the most blatant cases, 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) not as obvious. Do you deny that? Does that diminish your faith in the inspired word? By study and research each of us can come to understand that while there may be wording errors or punctuation errors (Luke 23:43) we can be assured that the Bible is the word of God.
The points you make are bit confusing:
1. I can’t say I am familiar with the custom of the times you refer to, but I find it baffling that Luke would mention father to son all the way down to Heli and switch over to father-in-law to son-in-law at the last generation. I don’t understand the logic there.
2. Mat 1:17 you said, “the first segment of Israel’s history ends with David, and the second period begins with David. “ If that’s the case then the last set begins with the exile and ends with the exile, so that would make it 15 generations. If you count David twice then you have to count the exile twice also.
A simpler solution to the whole thing is that the word “husband” in verse 16 should have been “father”. Mary’s father as well as her husband were named Joseph. A simple grammatical error in the translation and all scriptures align themselves.
3. “Why then insist that Jeremiah wrote this? Much of what the ancients said was passed on through oral tradition.” Did you look up the scripture in Zach 11:12-13? If you had you would notice the relation between the pieces of silver and the potter’s field. Also, Mat is full of examples where he says “spoken” when it was written. See Mat 3:3 cf Isa 40:3, Mat 8:17 cf Isa 53:4, Mat 12:17 cf Isa 42:1-4, Mat 13:35 cf Psalms 78:2, Mat 21:4 cf Zach 9:9. Why would Mat 27:9 be different. I notice in Bro. Russell’s writings that he doesn’t have qualms about saying that 1Kings 6:1 is grammatically wrong, then why other parts of the Bible can’t also be mistranslated.
4. I don’t understand your reasoning here. What difference does it make where Jesus was at the time. Mat 24:27 puts the cardinal points into the scripture and Bro. Russell makes a big distinction saying that the word “lightning” should be sun rise, as in a gradual dawn. He wouldn’t be able to say that by reading Luke 17:24. So you see wording does matter.
I have studied the volumes written by Bro. Russell. Most of the volumes read as they were taken from Nelson H. Barbour’s “The Three Worlds” http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/3worlds.pdf
It was Barbour that first came up with the idea that Jesus came invisibly in 1874. This was because he had been preaching that 1874 was to be Jesus’ coming and when nothing happened he had to come up with something, so he hit on the parousia theory. Ellen White, of the Seventh Day Adventists, came up with something similar for the date 1844, “the great disappointment”.
Bro. Russell takes the time of the Judges from Acts 13:20 in the KJV. If he had read it from the
Young’s Literal Translation which he quoted many times, he would not have come up with 1874. That’s only one reason why I think his chronology is mistaken, don’t bother putting up the link I have your paper on Judges. As I’ve stated earlier we can go on forever on this topic without coming to a conclusion. You sounded a bit perturbed, I hope I didn’t upset you, wasn’t my intention. BTW, there aren’t two anonymous, it’s just me and you probably know who I am. I hope to see you at Sept. FSC.
Anonymous – Thanks for clarifying who you are. When I wrote you the other day, I did not take the time to figure out who you were. I may be quite direct in my responses, but even if we can never agree, you can know that I will always love you as my Brother in Christ.
Thank you, I appreciate that. You have my guarantee of similar sentiments.
Anonymous – I agree with you that there are many translation errors out there we have to deal with. However, that does not deter me, in context of Jesus’ Second Presence, in applying the following:
• Parousia = Jesus 2nd presence starting out invisibly – the the world is unaware as in Noah’s day
• Epiphany = The bright shining evidences of Jesus’ second presence revealed to the spirit begotten (Holy Spirit anointed) followers of Christ. Dan 12:10 “the wise shall understand”
• Apocalypse = The revealing of Jesus’ invisible presence to mankind in the Armageddon trouble.
In regards to the four points:
1. The Matthew account traces Jesus’ lineage through David’s son Solomon all the way down to Joseph. The Luke account traces Jesus’ lineage through David’s son Nathan all the way down to Mary. Joseph’s name is in place of Mary as the adopted father of Jesus and son-in-law of Heili (Mary’s father).
2. In light of verse 17, we can see that this genealogy is broken down into three sections:
The history of Israel from Abraham to David: 14 generations
From David to deportation to Babylon: 14 generations
From Babylon to the time of Jesus Christ: 14 generations
The history of Israel from Abraham to David: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and brothers, Perez (and Zerah), Hezron, Ram, Amminadob, Nahshon, Salmon, Boaz, Obed, Jesse, and David. That’s 14 generations from Abraham to David. We don’t count Zerah as he is the same generation as Perez.
From David to deportation to Babylon: David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah. That’s 14 generations. Notice that the passage says: “from David to the deportation.” Therefore, David is considered the first generation in the deportation.
From Babylon to the time of Jesus: Jeconiah, Shealtial, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Elikim, Azor, Zadok, Achim, Eljud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph, Jesus. 14 generations.
3. You make a good point. You point out that the prophetic allusion accredited in Matthew 27:9 to Jeremiah, is actually found in Zechariah 11:12, 13. However, this is not a discrepancy since the Jewish Bible is divided into three sections—the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. Isaiah in the Massoretic, opens with Jeremiah in most of the older Hebrew versions. Thus a quotation from any part of this Book of the Prophets, which included Zechariah, could properly be attributed to the book of Jeremiah (see the writings of David Kimchi, Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown, and Adam Clarke’s Commentary).
4. It makes all the difference in the world that Luke 17 and Matt 24 are two different events occurring at two different times, since this eliminates the issue of differences between the accounts. Luke 17:24 should be translated sun, not lighting. Lightning does not shine, but the sun does shine. Lightning flashes.
C. T. Russell learned many things from many different students of the Bible. Yes he learned from Barbour that Jesus would return in 1874, but Barbour expected a visible return and was disappointed and changed his mind. C. T. Russell never publicly promoted the 1874 date until after 1874, at which time he realized that the Lord had in fact returned, but invisibly. Regarding the period of the Judges, I think there is overwhelming scriptural evidence for 450 years. The shortened theory easily fall apart on many levels. I believe the 1 Kings 6:1 is spurious.
These are just my thoughts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hello ya all , so pleased to have found this site . Why is 1874 important ??? To me – the future SIGN of his presence will be good debate . Math 24; 3-51 as written and applicable today !
Allen – Good question. Volumes 2 and 3 of Studies in the Scriptures provides the answer. There are several time prophecies that connect 1874 with the time of Jesus invisible 2nd Presence. I don’t believe the SIGN marks the time of Jesus’ invisible presence, unknown to the world (as in the Days of Noah), but rather the time of the Apocalypse or revealing of that second presence to the world (as when the flood came).
“I don’t believe the SIGN marks the time of Jesus’ invisible presence, unknown to the world (as in the Days of Noah), but rather the time of the Apocalypse or revealing of that second presence to the world (as when the flood came).”
…
In Luke 17:30 a parallel scripture to Mat 24:37, Luke uses the word “apocalypto” or revealment, not “parousia” or presence as in the days of Noah. Jesus spoke Aramaic so of course he didn’t use either one of those words. But the gospel writers, Luke/Mat. seem to use them interchangegably.
Anonymous – I am glad to see you are closely looking at the relevant scriptures. My thought is that “parousia” (presence) and “apocalypse” (reveal) are being used by Jesus in two very different ways, even if used in the same general context. In Matt 24, “parousia” (vs 37) is being compared to the “days of Noah” when the people “did not know” (vs 39). In Luke 17, the flood and the destructive fire rained down on Sodom (vs 29) is how Jehovah’s judgement was “apocalypto” (revealed). The revealing of Jehovah’ judgement followed the “days of Noah” period when the people “did not know” (or did not believe) that Jehovah’ revealing judgement was coming soon.
Are you saying that Jesus gave this example to his disciples on two different occasions, one in Luke’s account and one in Matthew? Remember also that Jesus never uttered the words “parousia” (presence) and “apocalypse” (reveal), he spoke Aramaic, therefore these words are what the gospel writers used to translate as close as possible what Jesus said. Matthew is the only gospel writer that uses “parousia” and since many scholars think he wrote in Hebrew and was translated into Greek around the second century, we can safely assume that he didn’t use this word either. Your thoughts?
Anonymous – Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will do the same. Both Luke chapters 12 and 17 have elements repeated in Mattew 24, but it is actually Luke 21 that was spoken at the same time as Matthew 24. Interstingly, Luke picks up on the portion of Jesus words in Luke 21 that apply more directly to Natural Israel and the Jewish Harvest at the end of the Jewish age, including the destruction of Jeruslalem. Matthew picks up on the spiriftual application Jesus was making to spiritual Israel at the end of the Gospel Age during the Gospel Harvest. The Jewish Harvest was the calling out of the True Israelites (Christians) out of the nation and into the barn (early Church). The Gospel Harvest is associated with Rev 18:4 “Come out of her my people” out of Babylon – the nomimal Church systems, into the barn – assoication together in the Truth, ultimately the Heavelnly Barn. I don’t think the Aramaic is an issue. The Bible as written in Greek is inspired and we can trust that the correct words were used and base our faith on that. Otherwise we make make assumptions about the Aramaic and rationalize any reading we want to come up with. These are my thoughts. I hope they are of interest.
Is it the Bible Student’s belief that Jesus Christ started his reign as King in 1874, the same year of his parousia?
CaptainRealism – Many Bible Students believe that Christ started his reign as King in 1874. Am I correct that your name suggests that the Bible Student view on this topic is far-fetched and not realistic at all? I hope I am not assuming too much, but I will respond to you based on this assumption. To the average Christian and many Ex-JWs, this point of view that Jesus has been reigning as king since 1874 is so ridiculous that the matter need not even be considered. And that CaptainRealism is the problem, that the matter is generally not given a moment of consideration, let alone investigated in light of the testimony of scripture. Indeed, at Jesus first advent, the thought that a man who had been crucified as a law breaker was the Son of God and had been resurrected from the dead would have seemed quite ridiculous to the Roman world, except to those who may have patiently listened and investigated the evidence.
The investigation of all the scriptures pertaining to this topic is quite involved and for a complete grasp of the concept, I recommend you carefully read, while looking up every scripture cited, Volumes 2-4 of Studies in the Scriptures. Now, if you are retired and have the time to work on this full time, I imagine it would take a few months to read through these books while carefully studying all the scripture passages sited. Since that is not likely to happen, to get you started, I can recommend perhaps reading the short booklet, entitled, “I Will Come Again” at this link: http://www.bible411.com/iwillcomeagain/index.htm
I would be pleased to engage you in a lengthy back and forth discussion on the topic on this site if you are willing. Let me start out by saying that I think we can clearly establish from scriptures the following:
* Since Jesus’ resurrection he is an invisible spirit being. Therefore at his return he would be invisible and cannot be seen with the literal eye.
* He can be seen through the eye of faith as evidenced by the fulfillment of the scriptural signs connected with his return.
* During Phase I of His Presence (Greek “Parousia”) there is a period of time (Greek “epiphanyia”) where he is recognized by his followers, but the world of mankind is totally unaware and blind to this fact.
* At Phase II of Jesus Presence, at the Revealment (Greek “Apocalypse”), His Presence is Revealed to the world.
* After Jesus 2nd Advent begins there will be Holy Spirit Anointed Christians alive on earth during a period of time styled in the Bible as the Gospel Age “Harvest.”
* Since 1874, Jesus has been invisibly reigning as a conquering King dismantling Satan’s empire through an explosion of light, liberty and information which is destabilizing Satan’s governments which are based on deception and darkness.
I can provide scriptural evidence for each of these points, but to keep is simple, I have merely listed that points. We can pursue any point further upon your interest to do so.
Let me ask you some questions CaptainRealism that I believe relate to this topic. Can you explain why the following has happened in the past two or so centuries and what is causing these things to happen?
* The Jewish People restored to the land of Israel
* Bible Societies translated the Bible in nearly every language for the first time in history in the 1800s
* The French and American Revolutions, the first of their type and on that scale in history.
* The explosion of knowledge and technology on every subject.
* News instantly available worldwide, including corruption in government, business and religious institutions.
* The increase in travel (cars, trains, airplanes, fast and safe ocean vessels)
* Unprecedented worldwide trouble on a global scale (WWI, WW2, Cold War, Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, population explosion multiplying starvation and disease, etc.)
Why are all these things happening now in the past couple of centuries or so? What is bringing this all about? To what end or purpose are these things happening?
Thanks for the reply Peter K. My position is certainly not that the Bible Students belief is far fetched. I simply wished confirmation of the fact that it is what you believe.
To answer your question and then ask some of my own:
You asked: “Why are all these things happening now in the past couple of centuries or so? What is bringing this all about? To what end or purpose are these things happening?”
I answer: I believe in the end of this age and the restoration. (Matt 24:3; Acts 3:18-21)
Q: In what sense has Jesus been dismantling Satan’s empire through an explosion of light, liberty and information which is destabilizing Satan’s governments since 1874?
Q: Why would Jesus come in 1874 and the Gentiles continue their reign till 1914?
Q: What scriptural chronology puts Jesus parousia in 1874?
Hi Captain, Br. Peter are making great points. Also keep in mind that out of 33yrs. Jesus was actually here for 30 yrs. Only shepherds, Mary, and a few others knew he was here as The Saviour. At 12yrs he was already aware of his father’s. Although he was not in role of messiah, he was here before. Just a side note, probably don’t weigh in much. And welcome.
http://www.christianquestions.net/en/2011mp3/659_Is_Jesus_Returning_May_21_2011_05_15_11.mp3
You may find this intesting….
Thanks Jeff. I listened to the whole show. It was interesting. I hope Peter K is still planning on engaging in a lengthy back and forth discussion.
You betcha!
I will be providing Pete a recording of an interview we participated in with Rick from Christian Questions on the Six Screens of the WatchTower dialogue with Richard Rawe on this topic. Look for it within the next couple of days.
CaptainRealism – I agree with your answer to my question and I know there is much more we can both say on that.
In the way of a general introductory comment, I think that some of the reasons why most people have great difficulty understanding Bible prophecies. Here are some of the reasons:
* They ignore the studies and conclusions of prophecy by the reformers and other great teachers of the past (Wycliff, Huss, Luther, Sir Isaac Newton, William Penn, etc.) Much of this is this is outlined in the classic book series, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers.
* They accept the counter reformation conclusions promoted by a Jesuit priest of the Catholic Church, that the anti-christ is a man coming in the future. They believe that the days of Daniel and Revelation are literal days, not accepting the principle established in the 70 weeks prophesy that a day equals a year.
* They expectation that Jesus’ return will be visible to the world from the start and that all the related prophecies will occur and wrap up quickly within 3 ½ to 7 years. Yet this goes against the pattern of historically fulfilled prophecies and parables which can span centuries or even over a 1,000 years.
With this in mind, let me get started on one of your questions today and perhaps we can get through all three in the next couple of weeks. These sorts of topics can get complex, but I will try to keep the answers as simple as possible, leaving room for further more detailed discussion as your interest directs.
Q: In what sense has Jesus been dismantling Satan’s empire through an explosion of light, liberty and information which is destabilizing Satan’s governments since 1874?
The reign of the great anti-christ began to end in 1799 AD (end of 1260 years) when Napoleon took the Pope as a prisoner to France where he died. The Truths brought out in this French Revolution revealed the Papacy as a corrupt system that had persecuted and tortured it’s opposers. The stage was set in the 1800 when much Bible Study was engaged in and many concordances, lexicons, commentaries, etc. became available. The Bible Societies translated the Bible in every major language on the planet and the Gospel was thereby preach to the whole world , then the end came (Matt 24:14). The Harvest is the end of the age (Matt 13).
At the end of the 1335 years (Dan 12:12) in 1874 the “Blessedness,” “waiting” and “coming” described by Daniel in Dan 12:12 are explained by Jesus in Luke 12:36,37, where he uses these same three words and indicates that the “servants” watching in 1874 would be “recline at table to eat.” And what a great feast of Harvest Truths they found in the Studies in the Scriptures. Luke 12:42 explains that Jesus will feed these servants (verse 37) through a Faithful and Wise Steward (verse 42), namely C.T. Russell. We can deduce that this Faithful and Wise Steward must be the same as the 7th Messenger described in Rev 3:14 because of some unmistakable correlations. Notice that Rev 3:20 says that Jesus stands and the door and knocks and that he will dine with whoever opens the door. Luke 12 :36-37 tells us to open the door when the Master knocks and that He will have them sit down at the table and will serve them food. This connection between Luke 12 and Rev 3 helps to clearly identify the 7th Messenger of Rev 3:14 and the same person as the Faithful and Wise Steward of Luke 12:42.
With all this in mind, the Truths of the Studies in the Scriptures brought Satan’s system, Christendom to its’ knees between 1874 and 1916. Book Stores would not sell the Divine Plan of the Ages, yet through the efforts of the zealous workers (angels of Matt 13) this book became the #1 best seller in the whole world after the Bible and the Chinese Almanac. C.T. Russell was recognized by the News media of the day as handily defeating both White and Eaton in two separate debates. Newspapers proclaimed that Russell’s hose put out the fires of hell. Pastor Russell’s sermons were in over 2,000 Newspapers worldwide. In a day when there was no radio and Television, so newspapers were the major news media. C.T. Russell was called the world’s pastor. Not all the exposure and influence of all the other pastors and priests in the world combined came close to His popularity. Revisionist historians have since attempted to hide and erase all evidence of Russell’s worldwide influence and popularity and they almost succeeded, except that the Internet is slowly bringing this historical information back to light.
The point is that Satan has deceived the Christian world through Christendom, yet C.T. Russell exposed its errors and corruption. Hence, moving past 1914, we see accomplished the end of Church/State rule, kings dethroned and Palestine set aside as a homeland for the Jews. Between the efforts of C.T. Russell, the early Bible Students and WWI, the Papacy and Christian Churches of Europe would continue to decline in power and influence to the present day.
Satan has ruled the world for centuries in darkness and by deception (2 Cor 4:3,4; Eph 6:12)
Luke 12:2,3 (NASV) “But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.”
Although the primary application of this text applies to the future earthly kingdom / Paradise Earth, I think we can the beginnings of this fulfillment in the past couple of centuries, beginning with the French and American Revolutions and escalating to today’s Internet Age, where corruption in government, business and religious institutions is becoming common knowledge. Politicians running for office find it difficult to hide their acts of immorality and law breaking when it is all over the Internet, as well as on the radio and television’s 24 hour News Cycle..
It has been “Truth” that that has been destabilizing Satan’s empire and which shall finally destroy it. Rev 19:15, “Now out of his mouth goes a sharp sword that with it He should strike the nations.” In Heb 4:12 the word of God (truth) is compared to a sword. There are numerous scriptures that associate “Truth” with having a destructive impact on Satan’s empire.
In 2 Thess 2:8 we see that the Lord will consume the Man of Sin with the breath of his mouth and the brightness of His presence. The mouth produces words and in Jesus case it is words of Truth. So both the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His presence are symbolic of the growing information explosion of Truth that is gradually consuming away the false Christian religious institutions.
In Psa 110, the returned and reigning Lord is described as ruling in the midst of His enemies. He judges many nations and destroys their rebellious leaders. A period of destruction precedes the period of resurrection and blessing.
Notice how the word “lightning” is used in the following verse.
Psa 97:1-5 (NASB)
1 The Lord reigns, let the earth rejoice;
Let the many islands be glad.
2 Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
3 Fire goes before Him
And burns up His adversaries round about.
4 His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
5 The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
During Jesus’ reign, ultimately the world will rejoice, but first he comes in dark clouds of trouble. Verse 4 says that “His lightnings lit up the world.” Satan works under darkness and this light has the effect that “the earth saw and trembled.” The earth (society)
Consider the great image of Daniel 2. The stone represents Christ’s heavenly kingdom which is growing as each of the anointed 144,000 dies and joins it.
Matt 21:43-44 (NASB) says, “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” Although Jesus first quotes Psa 118:22-23, His explanation seems to connect with the stone that crushes Daniels image. Jesus is describing the anointed glorified bride of Christ who as part of that stone (heavenly kingdom) with participate with their head, Jesus Christ, in breaking that image into pieces. Four steps are described in Daniel 2:
1) image struck
2) broken in pieces
3) ground in powder
4) blown away as the chaff of the summer threshing floor
These four steps have been in process since 1914.
The ten toes represent the European powers. Clay is an imitation of stone. Since the stone represents the true kingdom, then clay represents the imitation kingdom, the Papacy and all of Christendom. Iron represents Civil Power. Remember that in the image, the legs of iron picture Rome. So in essence, the mixture of iron and clay represent church and state union and their joint rule. WWI broke all that apart. This indicates the image was struck in 1914. Dan 2:44 says that, “in the days of these kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom… it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms…” So the stone, heavenly kingdom began to be set up in the days of these kings then began the break in pieces the image (European powers) in 1914.
I am running out of time, so I will give short and quick answers on your next questions and we can elaborate further over the next few days.
Q: Why would Jesus come in 1874 and the Gentiles continue their reign till 1914?
The Time of the Gentiles directly relates to the domination of the Gentile powers over Israel and they do not directly mark the date when Jesus second Presence would begin.
For example, in Lev 26 there are 4 places (vs 18, 21, 24, 28) where Jehovah says he will punish Israel 7 Times if they are unfaithful. The four instances are appropriate since there are four parts (empires) represented in the image. The iron and bronze of vs 19 relate to Daniels image — the iron being Rome and bronze being Greece. Jesus said in Luke 21:24 that “Jerusalem would be trampled by the Gentiles until the Times of the Gentiles are complete.” So Jesus related this period to the Gentile domination over the Jewish people and he never said that its end would mark the date of His return.
Q: What scriptural chronology puts Jesus parousia in 1874?
First we rely on the Bible to determine the Chronology from Adam to the present. In Volume 2 there is a simple 20 page chapter, called “Bible Chronology” that does just that. It is actually pretty simple. If we just don’t allow ourselves to get caught up in all the inconsistent and unreliable secular records it is just a matter of adding up the years provided in the Bible. The fact that a complete set of years can be found in the Bible from Adam to the Jewish captivity makes it obvious that Jehovah intended to provide us with an accurate Bible Chronology. The only other conclusion is that this is some sort of cosmic divine joke and Jehovah is just teasing us by giving us most of the pieces by not enough to connect it with Bible time prophecy. One more important point. At somewhere along the stream of time, the Bible Chronology has to be connected with some anchor date in secular Chronology. Otherwise we would not be able to provide any historical biblical dates taken from the Bible. That anchor date is 536 BC which is a well-established and agreed to secular date for Cyrus 1st year as king where he was not in a co-regency. So AD 536 marks the end of the 70 years of Jewish desolation. With that information, we can count backwards, strictly using dates taken from the Bible to the creation of Adam.
Bible Students believe the 6,000 years from the expulsion of Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden brings you to 1874, the beginning of the 7,000 year day. It is been a venerable historical tradition that Christ would return of the 7th day and this largely ties in to Bible types of the Jewish Sabbath Day and Sabbath year which are believe to be types of restitution. Even so, this evidence by itself might leave room for doubt. Hence we find time prophecies in the Bible which are well explained in Volumes 2 & 3 of Studies in the scriptures. Some of these dates arrive at 1874 and other time prophecies arrive at other important historical dates. In summary, the following time prophecies point to 1874.
* Jubiliees – prophetic calculation
* Jubiliees – calculation as a type
* Parallell dispensations based on the Jewish Double
* Daniel’s 1335 days
I hope this helps CaptainRealism and I look forward to hearing from you again.
Wow PK:
It wouldn’t take much polishing to turn that into and article for the site, if you didn’t already pull it from one.
According to the book Thy Word is Truth, pg. 81, it’s seems there may be a problem in the chronology of “The Period of the Judges”. Modern Bible translations read a bit different than the KJV on Acts 13:19,20.
Your thoughts?
CaptainRealism – No problem. Paul applies this 450 years to the period of the judges. Check out my study here: http://www.biblechronology.org/studies.html
On the Bible Chronology website under “Studies,” look for “Peter Karavas,” then “Period of the Judges.” Page 4 is most relevant, but really the complete paper we trust will be a faith strengthening read.
Captain, here is a simple study in the “presence” and “coming” of Jesus
made by a simple Bible student
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=1116&pid=60428#pid60428
rus v.
Yes, most of the whole 3 cities of elders were outraged that such a public battle occured in court. Especially since I asked the society and the circuit brother to keep it in house. He told the elders the society said go to court and get a restraining order. But their lawyers had a whammy waiting on me. The judge chewed them up and spit them out. I think everytime someones sees me they tell each other what happened as there were over 70 people in the court and many came from other floors because the elders were loud and scary acting. I mostly remained silent and defeated. Now I would not, but then I still felt the org was from Jehovah. Now that I know they are not I will fight them as if they are a man of the world, lawyer for lawyer. I would however rather they forget that court case but it took on a life of it’s own. I did win.
The sister from Wisconsin father and mother were DF but all her other relatives are in. These young girls were molested at age 6 and 8. Happen 30 yrs ago. I employed them at my business.
Jacqueline, is there anyway I could read the whole story somewhere?
Ken, I told the story on sixscreens when a brother told me about them. I didn’t know at the time it would be recorded and posted. But since I couldn’t take it back I accepted the posting. It was what I needed to say out loud to thge world how the society behaved when they saw they couldn’t intimidate me. Everyone was so nice and encoraging. I was finally free and I encourage pedophile victims to tell the world on that network and they too experience a relief. I didn’t know at the time that the society had tried to entrap me because of my knowledge of so many pedophile cases. Elders have sneaked and told me I was a target just like Barbara Anderson and they wanted me to do something to get DF’d. They just didn’t know I would go to court. So it was just an open scandal against the JW in our little city. I talked to the judge that handled the case just a month ago at a business meeting and she still remember it along with other city officials.
Jacqueline, I have placed several of those most excellent booklets!I’m so glad the Jw friends are treating you so well…I think they must understand your plight.
Does anybody know where I can get a used copy of the book “In Search of Christian Freedom” by Ray Franz?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net has a free pdf. download. Also the zon (amazon) has new and used. Just put in the name of the book. Take Care
BTW Ken has things quieted down for you at the KH? Hope life is peaceful. I have way more witness friends now than I had before I left. This is strange.
Thanks Jacqueline!At the KH I’ve been getting a lot of smiles from the friends lately,probably because they know I’m serious about coming back,in fact, my wife tells me a few of her friends said they’re glad to see me at all the meetings and one even said it gives her hope that maybe her husband will come back(he was Df’d before I was but doesn’t come to the meetings. Strange that you say you have more Jw friends now than ever before, why is that?
On a Droid. They seem to come around me in a genuinely friendly manner. They want to hear what i have to say. A pioneer elder and wife, older ones, continue to talk to me in restaurants and today on the street. I guess I am not afraid, so, it’s okay that sisters drop by and we chat and always they express their feelings. They would never do that with someone else. That why I say that. Before I left I was in a position where they would shy away from me because of the co and DO.
Jacqueline, are they receptive to BS literature and beliefs?
They always want to know where I am now and I tell them about the original BS still in existence. I see these people again and they still speak or hug me. Last nite after a JW meeting was out and elder and wife went out to eat, he came over to 2 of us that have left. Shook our hands and winked. I think Jesus is allowing me to have these experiences to pass it on. DO NOT GET DF”d. WALK AWAY! KEEP YOUR FAMILY IN TACT! Those are lawyers making the decision to stop the exodus by DF and others will see how harsh the shunning is and stay. Why fight a lion who is intent on eating you when you can just get out of the cage. I leave anything Br. Russell with the brothers and they will take it hands now. Then I leave it to the Angels and Holy Spirit to stir their heart as they read in privacy. I cast the bread on the waters but don’t drown. That is just my way of doing it some are bolder. If there is a weak one in your family that can’t take the shunning, we should think about them. My child begged me not to get DF as it would cause severe problems with his wife. I thought about him as he had tears in his eyes. I walked withour fanfare. I will look for the article where the org said to do that.
Jacqueline, so you’re not Df’d correct?
No, I am not. I decided in the new service year of 2009 in September that I would not turn in time any more. I found it offensive and had been tuyrning in an hour only for some time. I prayed over it and decided I was not going to give any reason for the elders or CO (lives on KH property) to say a word to me. So from Sept until December of 2009 I went in by hookup only and searched the web and went into deep prayer to my father. I came across 1800Gods plan and called it on Dec 30 or 31st a sister talked to me for 4 hrs and I poured out my heart. She mentioned The Dawn.org and then a thunderstorm cut us off. I didn’t know what number I called and the computer phone didn’t store it. But I remember The Dawn.org. Went there and it said a convention was in Addison. Il that weekend. I went there and it was the BS. I recognized the program and the SITS. Jan. 2010 I never looked back, I was home. I am working now so I might not see your reply for a feww hours.
Ok Jacqueline,thanks!
I am home now. When I left the sister observed they were looking at us, normally you say good-bye to friends as you leave, but I never turned around. I did however go to my car and get the booklets “How to read the Bible and have it make sense”. Also, I left the business cards that says Chicago Bible Students 1800Gods-plan and website, there is a spot for material and you can’t miss it as you go out. Hopefully if Holy Spirit dictates one of them will call attention and look on back and see it is Bible Students. There is only one restaurant in this beach area so that is why I see everyone all the time. The CO is not with brothers from my territory so he won’t bother to make a call. But I won’t hide what I am and will continue to be respectful and speak to my JW friends. Again I think Jesus is letting me have these experiences so I can tell others don’t let them DF you if you have decided to leave, just walk away.
i was one of jw once, and i was always told by them you don’t ever look into other bibles except the new world translation (jw bible) you’ll get in trouble with the elders for doing that, and you don’t ever go to another church unless it’s another kingdom hall, attending any other religion is immediate disfellowshipping
Hello Jerry and Welcome,how long ago were you a Jw? When elders tell you not to look at other Bibles, you can always show how the GB frequently uses other translations in the watchtower magazines. If they can why can’t you?
Good Point Ken. And hello jerry, welcome. I am visiting relatives and all are JW. It has taken some time but we are back a close family. The men in our family states the GB, that don’t have children can’t speak for them. Heads of house are making their decisions individually on contact with members that have left and went to another religion. Maybe Jerry can tell us his experience on testimonials also.
Thanks for correcting me Peter.
http://www.ReadTheVolumes.com
Here’s a new website created by RR(from the Bible student forum) http://www.ReadTheVolumes.com…..enjoy!
Ken – Thanks, you are ahead of me on this. I have been meaning to postit. The webstie was created by Br. Allen Springer and concieved by Sr. Sue Doctor.