The suggested answers provided to all questions below are based on and in harmony with the views of the original Watchtower Bible and Tract Society when under the guidance of Pastor Charles Taze Russell. Comments will often include a link to Pastor Russell’s own explanation. However, in any case, we leave your conclusions to your own personal study, prayer, conscience and the influence of the Holy Spirit.
- Who are the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have created this website?
- Why have the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses set up this site? What is your purpose?
- Should we really want to be on earth rather than heaven? Does the Bible give us that option?
- Are the Great Crowd the same as all the people in Paradise Earth?
- What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?
- Is the Great Crowd to be in heaven or on earth?
- Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16?
- What happens to Anointed who do not make the 144,000
- As the Path Shines Brighter, does the Truth Change?
- Why does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering?
- What is the future mission of the Anointed for which they are now being prepared?
- Will Present Unbelievers Serve and Worship Jehovah on Paradise Earth?
- Will Everyone Be Resurrected from the Dead?
- Have People Received Final Judgment for the Past 6,000 or will they have an Opportunity for Judgment and Restitution on Paradise Earth?
- Will the wicked get an opportunity to repent in Paradise earth?
- Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
- Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?
- What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?
Has anyone heard how the brethern are doing on the East coast in the path of hurricane Sandy?
Br. Grieh has lost power, David Stein has lost power. Delaware chesapeake is bracing. If there is anything very different I will post here with Br. Peter’s imput.
Marvie from the Detroit class just texted she is in the middle of storm, no lights but okay. Wow. Will update on this comment by adding.
Thanks Jacqueline:)
Has anyone here read the “character development book”….if so, did you find it helpful?
Does anyone know where I can get those “little” Gideon Bibles that have the new testament w/Proverbs and Psalms?
I got three at the state fair for my grandchildren. They give you the color according to age, school, retired etc. They are beautiful covers.
http://www.gideons.org. They will tell you where to get them.
Ken – Let me suggest that numbers in Revelation are literal, but what the numbers are attached to is symbolic. For example, trumpets are symbolic of messages proclaimed, but that there are seven is literal. A “day” is symbolic of a year, but the fact that there is 1260 of them is literal.
The only problem I have with the 144,000 is that I am amazed and encouraged that there are so many who actually prove faithful to be earths future judges, priests and kings. It gives me hope that I have a shot at this.
For Revelation, I hope you will find this website helpful. http://www.revelation-today.com/
Thank you Peter and Jacqueline!
Today, my wife told me that her elders(JW)said that this is the time of year for them to visit difellowshipped ones and told her to ask me when would be a good time for them to come see me…..I told her I’d let her know. The question is: should I let them visit me so that I can tell them I’m no longer interested in returning to the Jw’s or should I use this as an opportunity to witness?
How can the number 144,000 be literal if the 12 tribes in Rev. 7:5-8 arn’t literal?
Hello. I have only just discovered this website, and I find a confusing mass of postings! Of course we need to be able to have an interchange of ideas, but I have arrived at the end of a conversation, and wonder what it was all about.
So, just to get my bearings, as it were, this site FoJW (Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses), are you folks mostly/all from the WTS (Watch Tower Society)? Or are you drawn from the Bible Students too?
Also, if I may ask a question, do you believe that 1914 was a prophesied date, as do the WTS? If so, on what scriptural basis? I personally have an issue with this teaching!
Hoping for a succinct answer,
Dimwick
Dimwick – My personal experience is generally that many who disagree wither Brother Russell on 1914 have never really read what he had to say on the subject. You can find our comments on this topic by clicking here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/prophecy/end-of-the-times-of-the-gentiles/
Hello Dimwick; Yes I agree … it is a confusing mass of postings . One cannot go to a subject being posted and follow the replies in order , then ending with the last post where one can debate the subject with others.
Am I understanding this site wrong ?
I know there are online meetings on sunday morning but I lost the website Info., could someone fill me in?
Ken Chicago will not have online to morrow because the convention is broadcasting in Columbus In. I will sent you the link to the convention. I am listening to it now.
You said, “Please note the Charles Taze Russell did not publicly predict the Jesus would return in 1874. Rather around 1876 he began publically teaching that Jesus had returned in 1874.” Of course, he didn’t know about the theory of Jesus’ invisible return until 1876. In 1871 Nelson Barbour wrote and published a small book entitled Evidences for the Coming of the Lord in 1873, or The Midnight Cry. It went through two printings and articles by him started appearing in the Second Adventist press, notably the World’s Crisis. A significant movement advocating 1873 grew up. Many gathered at Terry Island to await the return of Christ in late 1873. Christ failed to return and the group dissolved. Barbour and others looked to the next year. Benjamin W. Keith, an associate of Barbour’s since 1867, proposed the belief in a two-stage, initially invisible “parousia”. He convinced Barbour that Christ had indeed come in 1874 and would soon become visible for judgments. Barbour started a magazine in December 1873 to promote his views, calling it The Midnight Cry. He later changed the name to Herald of the Morning. In December 1875 Charles Taze Russell received a copy of the Herald of the Morning. He arranged for Barbour to speak in Philadelphia in 1876, at that time Barbour along with Keith, convinced Russell of the invisible presence of Jesus. Barbour and Russell began their association, during which Barbour wrote the book The Three Worlds (1877), which was financed by C.T. Russell, and reads as a condensed version of the volumes, Studies in the Scriptures. Barbour also published a small booklet by Russell entitled Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return. So you see, Bro. Russell was not the one that came up with the theory of Jesus’ invisible return, it was Benjamin W. Keith and Nelson Barbour promoted it. Br. Russell didn’t find out about it until 1876. By 1879 Barbour and Russell dissolved their association, then Russell wrote Studies in the Scriptures so that he would not promote Nelson Barbour any longer. But Russell kept Barbour’s chronology pretty much intact, even the Chart of the Ages is the same. If the Greek translators of the Gospel of Matthew had used a different word than “parousia”, Keith never would have come up with the idea of the invisible presence.
I think you’re grasping at straws when you talk about the Days of Noah and the difference between Luke and Matthew. Especially so when Luke 17 talks about the destruction of the two cities Sodom and Gomorrah which were both destroyed suddenly. Personally I believe that “parousia” and “apocalypse” are interchangeable. Otherwise for why would the Apostle Paul tell the Thessalonians to wait until the Lord’s parousia and the Corinthians to wait unto the Lord’s apokalupsis, (1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Cor. 1:7).
Peter, if you agree with me that Jesus has been directing the world’s affairs since His ascension into the heavens, then the whole theory of whether He came invisibly in 1874 or 1844 as the Millerites believed, or in 1914 as the JW’s believe, is mute. As I stated before, “Return from where?” If Jesus has been directing the world always then He must have been always present as He told His disciples in Mat. 28:20, “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” In the days of Bro Russell, the parousia was an important matter because he believed that Jesus’ apocalypse would be in 1915.
“Even so, he has opened unto us the Scriptures, showing us truth concerning his present glorious nature, the object, manner, and time of his coming, and the character of his manifestations to the household of faith and to the world. He has drawn our attention to the prophecies which definitely locate us on the stream of time, and has shown us the order of his plan of operations in this harvest time. He has shown us, first of all, that it is a harvest of the saints, a time for their full ripening, and for their separation from the tares; and secondly, that it is a time for the world to reap its whirlwind harvest–for the reaping of the vine of the earth, and the treading of its fruitage in the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God. He has shown us that both of these ripenings (Rev. 14:1-4,18-20) will be completed in a period of forty years, ending with the year A.D. 1915. “( Vol. 2 page 171). Bro Russell had a parallel theory, a copy of his chart regarding the parallels can be found in Vol. 2 page 220.
1914/15 has come and gone, and we are still waiting for Jesus’ revealing. Therefore, whether He “came” in 1844, 1874 or 1914 doesn’t make much difference. He never told His disciples when He would reveal Himself. Which when you think about it, why would He give His disciples only half the information? In any case, we must still watch and be ready, ” So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Mat 24:44.
It was never my intention to change yours or anyone else’s beliefs. The only reason I started this discussion was to show that there are two sides to every story. I have placed links to different sites so that anyone who wants to learn more can do so. As Paul states 1 Cor. 13: 12, “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
I will always be grateful to the Bible Students for pointing me in the right direction in my endeavor to learn more of God’s Word. I am grateful also that we can agree to disagree on certain things without the threat of being excommunicated. I now believe it’s time to end this debate since we seem to be going around in circles. Peter if you would like to continue on a one on one, send me an e-mail and I’ll respond as quickly as possible.
With Christian love to all…
Anonymous hello, Since your conversation seems to be winding down, I would like to say I have enjoyed reading the back and forth. One thing that impressed me is that you both had respect for one another and are friends. Many on this site has seen how it is to be a Bible Student if you disagree or don’t quite see a point you can talk about it. WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISAL!. This freedom and liberty in Christ draws me to the Bible Students, we can think and get a personal understanding and relationship with God. That is so important in the life of a Christian. They don’t look at you all funny and move away from you if you don’t quite see all the points. And God had the Bible written in such a way that a person will read and study it from the cradle to the grave and still not have all the answers. Because Jesus is all about FAITH not knowledge. Although it is so great when you are with brothers that know that Bible, it is a joy! This is the freedom that all reading this site can expect, to be able to say you you think about a scripture, everybody has something to say. Thank you dear Br. Peter and Br. Bob, you have demonstrated in real time the FREEDOM and Liberty that those on this site can experience. It takes a long time to heal from authoritarianism forms of governments and corporate religions. Sometimes you can’t believe you are free.
God Bless both of you.
Good Bye and GOD bless. GOD’s mercy has been extended to us through the redemption of His Son on our behalf. This site has shown you endless mercy as you have expounded your beliefs here. Most of us are here for the peace and freedom we never experienced with the Watchtower Organization not to just disagree. We just want to find out what the Bible Students believe not try to change or dispute their beliefs.
Well, that’s just my thoughts on this long winded discussion.
Kathleen, How are you? Ahh but there is a segment of brothers that said wow they didn’t put him out yet? So you see it works both ways. Now on Wednesday night we definitely would like to just see the differences and no debate but we can vote to end the discussion on Wednesday as a class. This is just so new and thrilling that Jesus is manipulating the comments to address a large segment. Br. Peter and Anonymous were not aware that some male xjw were watching the conversation to see if there would be a falling out. I promised not to tell so we could see the Bible Students in action when you express your opinion. I believe Holy Spirit provides what is needed even it it spurs us to speak. Thanks for commenting Peace.
Anonymous – Tempted as I am to respond, I will resist and let you have the last word. We can just agree to disagree, but continue to love each other as brothers in Christ. We can rejoice in the liberty we have in Christ to study God’s Word and follow our conscience. I can be reached by you or anyone else at this email address: BibleStudents1@gmail.com
I would be glad to trade phone numbers and talk with you or anyone else.
Christian love – Peter K.
“You said, “Jesus, under the guidance of Jehovah, is directing these things…” To that I respond YES! This is evidence Jesus has returned.” Returned from where? You make it sound as if Jesus completely ignored the world until 1874. Then all of a sudden he started to prepare the world for the Millennium, and it’s taking him over 138 years to do it. As a matter of fact Bro. Russell taught that we are now living in the Millennium which started in 1874. Didn’t Jesus take a hand in converting Paul as an apostle for the gentiles? Didn’t he send his angel to John to show him Revelation? Don’t you think he had anything to do with the Renascence bringing the populace out of the Dark Ages? How about the Reformation, did that happen on its own? Or the Adventist movement, from which Bro. Russell got most his ideas, don’t you think he guided the people involved? He told his disciples he would be with them always to the end of the age, so why did he have to “return” invisibly to prepare the world for the Millennium? When Jesus said he would return, I believe he meant that the world would know it and recognize him, not invisibly, but as he said, “30 “Then will appear the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven.” Mat 24:30. The world would know that he was taking charge. Until then he constantly told his disciples not to listen to anyone saying he had returned. As I mentioned before, if there was a danger that he would return invisibly and his disciple would not be aware of it, wouldn’t he have warned them of it? But he did not, so we would do well to heed the words of Jesus in Mark 13 and not be deceived.
5 “Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.” 21 “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.”
The whole point and purpose of watching is not that we may know, but that we might be ready when he comes, prepared to meet him at his arrival. That’s the reason he told his disciples the parable of the 10 virgins right after explaining to them what to expect – Mat 25. As he said in verse 13, “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Mark 13: 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.”
Also Mat 24: 42-44- “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
He repeated this before he left his disciples, Acts 1:6-8 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
I never said Jesus would be visible, but one way or another the world would know he was taking over. The word “sign” in Mat 24:30 means a miracle, so we can wait and see what it will be. You quoted 2Thes 2: 1-2, Paul is talking about the “day of the Lord” in verse 2 and in verse 3 he states not to be deceived since that day won’t come until the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed. And since that hasn’t happened it seems to me you’re helping to prove my point.
You said, “As the builder of the house, Jesus was the main messenger appearing to Moses at the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinai (Gal 3:19; Acts 7:53)as the Word or representative of Jehovah. “
I’m surprised you used those two scriptures since both of them show the angels to be plural and prove my point more than yours. You didn’t mention anything about Jude 9 or Dan10:13. You believe Jesus to be “ONE of the chief princes”? Who is the Lord that will rebuke Satan if Michael is Jesus our Lord?
You said, “Maby if you change out the world “messenger” for “angel” when Jesus is referred to it will not be so troublesome.”
OK, let’s try that, Heb 1: 5 For to which of the angels (messengers) did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels (messengers) worship him.”
13 To which of the angels (messengers) did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”
14 Are not all angels (messengers) ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Maybe you can see a difference, but it eludes me. BTW on Mat 11:10, I think you have it the other way around, it’s Jesus talking about John, see verse 7. I agree the word angel in Greek means messenger and it can refer to spiritual beings as well as people. I just don’t think it refers to Jesus. Jesus was the first born of all creation, he created all the angels including Michael. Col 1: 15-20
As to whether Michael is the Papacy in Rev 12, I’m not going to get into that. If you ask five people about Rev you’ll get five different answers. Bro. Russell is the only one I know that says Michael is the Papacy. I do think he is flip-flopping here, either Michael is Jesus or he’s the Papacy, how many different people can he be?
“So you don’t think it is Jesus who binds Satan?” Paul in Romans 16:20 says that “the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet” Then he says, “The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” It doesn’t seem to me that the “God of peace” is Jesus, but Jehovah instead. Revelation has many references to angels, but when it talks about Jesus it refers to him as “someone like the Son of Man”, or the Lamb, or by his name Jesus. I can’t find anywhere in Rev that Jesus is referred to as an angel. Just to make a point, President Obama is credited with the killing of Osama bin Laden, but he was in Washington D.C. at the time. So Jesus doesn’t have to actually bind Satan physically in order to receive credit for it, the celestial beings follow his command, the same as our soldiers follow their commander in chief.
I’ll be out of town this weekend, so I won’t be answering anything for a while.
In Christian love…
Anonymous,
You said, “You make it sound as if Jesus completely ignored the world until 1874.” Well actually, if you remember in the recent Thor movie, that his father went into the Odin sleep and thereby put the realm in peril. I guess Jesus got pretty exhausted after His death on the cross. He was so tired that we went to sleep for nearly 2,000 years. He was snoring so loud that the angels couldn’t take it anymore and finally woke him up in 1874. (… my joke for the day).
Seriously, Jesus of course has not been ignoring His followers or the world throughout the Gospel Age. In Revelation, the 7 Churches, 7 Trumpets and 7 Seals basically parallel each other and cover 7 stages of the Gospel age, leading up to the 7th, Jesus return and the Harvest. These passages cover the History of the Gospel Age and what Jesus has been doing. Some good information can be found here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/07/14/the-seven-churches-of-revelation/
You quoted from Matt 24 “5 “Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.” 21 “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.”
Notice that the ones doing the deceiving are the ones claiming to be Christ. False messiahs and prophets will appear. Brother Russell never claimed to be a prophet. The papacy and denominational churches have been these false Christ’s and prophets, claiming the divine right of Kings and the power to persecute the true saints. Are Bible Students the false prophets warned about? So the ones promoting the most important doctrine in the Bible, the Ransom for ALL, we are the false prophets that Jesus warned against? And the Papacy guilty of putting to death tens of millions of so called heretics are not false Christs?
One mistake people often make concerning scriptures about Jesus second presence is that they expect nearly everything to happen suddenly and all at the same time. This would be a departure from most other parables and prophecies where the fulfillment of the events described often span hundreds of years or more. For example, the parable of the Wheat and Tares (Matt 13) has been unfolding for nearly 2,000 years. Also, all seven events listed for the destruction Tyre (Ezek 26) took nearly 2,000 years to play out. Yet if we had lived at the time the Ezekiel spoke the words, we might have expected all seven events to occur at the same time and maybe in the next few years.
The Reformers all agreed that this ”man of Lawlessness” (Antichrist) was the Papacy that had been persecuting the true Church for centuries. In a counter reformation movement that eventually succeeded, the Catholic Church, through the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) proposed that the Antichrist was not the Papacy, but a wicked man coming in the future and that the 1260 days did not represent years (consistent with the Dan 9 seventy weeks prophecy), but instead the days were literal days.
In 2 Thess 2:8 we are told “then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his presence.” This process of “the wicked one” being “revealed” began with the Great Reformation and the bright shining of the harvest movement of 1874-1916 brought the denominational systems to their knees in terms of the light exposing their errors. Since then, the world wide increase of knowledge has been continually diminishing the influence of the papacy and denominational Churches, so much so that Muslims in Europe are increasingly converting empty Christian churches into mosques.
A major blow to Papacy was the French Revolution, which ended the 1260 years in 1799 when Napoleon brought the Pope a prisoner to France where the Pope soon died. In 1914, the Europe’s kings lost their authority and power and Church State rule was dissolved. Today, the Catholic and Protestant Churches are all but dead in Europe (the ten toes of the image – Dan 2) in terms of support and attendance from the people.
“the Lord Jesus will kill [the lawless one] with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming [parousia]. (2 Thessalonians 2:8). As the Papacy and Protestant Churches continue to die a slow death, they come together more and more in unity with each other (Matt 13 tares bound in bundles for burning). But these tares will finally be burned (completely destroyed) in Armageddon, at which point Jesus will be revealed (Apocalypse) to the world and the earthly Kingdom will be set up (Zech 14) and continue to grow and fill the whole earth like the stone that struck Daniel’s image. (Dan 2:35, 44)
Remember, in 1 Thes 4:15-17, Jesus comes to take his Church, those sleeping in death first. This is the first thing he does when he returns. In 2 Thes 1:7-10, Paul describes phase 2 of Jesus 2nd Advent. His bride is complete and he comes with them (his holy messengers – see Jude 14 “saints”). This phase 2 of Jesus’ parousia is called the “Apocalypse” (revealed) in scripture. It is the time when Jesus’ invisible presence is revealed to the world. This is identified with the “flood” of Noah and the “fire and brimstone” of Sodom where we find the word Apocalypse (Luke 17:30). More on this later.
NO MAN KNOW THE DAY
Matt 24:42 – “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. (NKJ)
Mark 13:32 – “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NKJ)
How can the Lord have returned in 1874 if the Bible says no one would know what hour the Lord is coming? The verse is not saying that nobody will ever know when the Lord returns. The point is nobody will know before he returns.
Does anyone believe that in the kingdom nobody will be able to look back and identify the time when the Lord had returned? Of course no one believes that. These passages are not saying that no one would ever know, they are simply saying that no one would know in advance.
The Mark text says that not even the Jesus knows when he would return. Does that mean that when he returns, he won’t realize he’s here? Of course not.
If when Christ returns no one will know, what’s the point of watching? The point of watching is so that once he arrives we will be aware of it while the rest of the world is unaware.
Please note the Charles Taze Russell did not publicly predict the Jesus would return in 1874. Rather around 1876 he began publically teaching that Jesus had returned in 1874.
DAYS OF NOAH
The question is whether Christ’s presence is being compared to the “days of Noah” before the flood or whether Christ’s presence is being compared to the flood itself.
Is Christ’s presence sudden and catastrophic like the flood, or is Christ’s presence quiet and unobserved, just like the “days of Noah” before the flood?
Let’s closely look at the scriptures.
Matt 24:37-39
37 – “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming (parousia – presence) of the Son of Man be.
This statement is simple and clear. The “days of Noah” are being compared to Christ’s presence. It’s important to note that Christ’s presence is being compared to the days of Noah before the flood.
Notice the next verse.
37 – “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
It was during the “days before the flood” that the world was going about their daily life routine, unaware of the coming judgement, just as it now is during the presence of Christ. Mankind goes about their daily life routine, unaware of Christ’s presence.
39 – “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming (presence) of the Son of Man be. (NKJ)
If is not until the Armageddon flood comes, that the world finally sees that Christ is present.
Now let’s check out the parallel scriptures in Luke.
Luke 17:26-27
26 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 “They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. (NKJ)
Here again, the days of Noah are compared with the days of the Son of Man, that is the days of Christ’s 2nd Presence. In the “days of Noah, people went about their daily life routine, just as they are now doing in the “days of the Son of Man.”
A similar comparison is made of the “days of Lot.”
Luke 17:28-30
28 “Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 “but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed (apocalypse). (NKJ)
Notice that the revealing of Christ’s presence is compared to the destruction of Sodom. It’s through the Armageddon destruction of the present systems that Christ’s presence is revealed to mankind. This is clearly seen in Ezek 38, 29 and Zech 14 where God is revealed to the world by rescuing natural Israel.
THIEF IN THE NIGHT
1Thes 5:2 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.”
If a thief breaks into your home, he doesn’t make a lot of commotion and try to wake everyone up. He comes in silently and quietly. If you’re in a deep sleep, you won’t realize he’s present in your home.
At Christ’s 2nd presence the world is asleep. They cannot discern the signs that indicate he has returned. But of God’s people we are told…
1Thes 5:4-6
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. (NKJ)
Most translators would like us to get a different meaning out of this passage. Notice verse 3.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. (NKJ)
One might get the idea from this verse that Christ returns suddenly and catastrophically; that everyone is immediately aware of it. Yet, this idea does not fit the illustration of a thief breaking into your home? Why are we then to watch? Wouldn’t we be caught by surprise if Christ’s return were sudden and catastrophic, without warning? Remember, verse 4 says, “you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” The point of watching is so that we won’t be taken by surprise; so that we will know that he is here.
If “sudden” is a correct translation in verse 3, we think that the “sudden destruction” comes, as the verse says, “as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.” Labor pains come in sudden spasms, increasing in frequency and severity until the birth of the child. So, we are now in a time of trouble, increasing in frequency and severity until the birth of the kingdom. We have experienced World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, The Cold War, revolutions, terrorism, famines, a Great worldwide recession, etc. The spasms of trouble and instability continue to accelerate each year.
We suggest that a better translation here would be “unexpected” or as King James says, “unawares.” In other words, during this “Thief in the Night” presence, the spasms of trouble are unexpected and the world is unaware that the Christ is present.
Strong’s 160 aiphnidios (aheef-nid’-ee-os); from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and 5316 [compare 1810] (meaning non-apparent); unexpected, i.e. (adverbially) suddenly: KJV– sudden, unawares.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon: “unexpected, sudden, unforeseen.”
Strongs 160 (KJV) used 2 times
Luke 21:34
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. (NKJ)
As further evidence that this passage is referring to a secret and invisible presence, notice that some of the Thessalonians brethren thought Christ may have already returned in their day.
II Th 2:1-3
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Paul did not want them to be troubled by his 1st letter or any other source into thinking that the day of the Lord (Christ’s 2nd presence) was already at hand. Realizing Christ would return invisibly, some of the Thessalonian brethren thought he had already returned. Paul goes on to show that Christ couldn’t have returned yet, because first the antichrist must arise, then Christ would return.
3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,” (NKJ)
Why didn’t Paul just say, “don’t you remember that I told you in my first letter that Christ would return suddenly and catastrophically? Don’t you recall that I said he would come with a shout and with the sound of a trumpet?” Paul did not use this argument because he wrote of the shout and trumpet symbolically and he used the illustration of the Thief to show how Christ would return unexpectedly and unawares to a world not watching.
Yes, Christ returns unexpectedly and unawares to a sleeping world, but we, the watchers, are able to discern the signs of his presence.
LIGHTNING
Luke 17:24 – For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
The Greek word can either be translated lightning or bright shining, depending on the context.
Strongs 796: astrape (as-trap-ay’); from 797; lightning; by analogy, glare: KJV– lightning, bright shining.
Vines: LIGHTNING – astrape ^796^ denotes (a) “lightning” (akin to LIGHT, B, No. 7),; in the plural, ; (b) “bright shining,” or “shining brightness,” . See SHINING.# – (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Strongs 796 (KJV) appears 9 times. Although translated lightening 8 times, notice how bright shining is often a better translation.
Matt 24:27:”For as the lightning [bright shining] comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (NKJ) [Sun SHINES from EAST to WEST, not lightning)
Matt 28:3 – His countenance was like lightning [bright shining] and his clothing as white as snow. (NKJ) (The angel was shining, not flashing)
Luke 10:18 – And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning [bright shining] from heaven. (NKJ)
Luke 11:36 – “If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light.” (NKJ)
Luke 17:24 – “For as the lightning [bright shining] that flashes [shines] out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. (NKJ) Describing the sun gradually shining in the dawning of a new day.
The Revelation references are all translated lightning – Rev 4:5; 8:5; 11:19 & 16:18
FLASH
Luke 17:24: “For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
Vines: DAZZLING (Used twice in New Testament), and of the apparel of the two men by the Lord’s sepulchre, <24:4>, KJV, “shining.” See LIGHTEN, SHINE.#
1. astrapto ^797^, “to flash forth, lighten,” is said of lightning,
(from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Luke 24:1-5
1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments.
5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? (NKJ)
These were shining garments, not flashing garments.
SHINES
Luke 17:24 – “For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
Strongs: 2989 lampo (lam’-po); a primary verb; to beam, i.e. radiate brilliancy (literally or figuratively): KJV– give light, shine.
Vines: LIGHT, NOUN, AND VERB (BRING TO, GIVE), LIGHTEN
3. lampo ^2989^, “to give the light of a torch,” is rendered “giveth light” in, KJV (RV, “shineth). See SHINE. (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
SHINE, SHINING (twice).#: see LIGHT, B, No. 3.
3. lampo ^2989^, “to shine as a torch,” occurs in
(from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
All references which use this word shine:
Strongs 2989 (KJV) used 7 times
Matt 5:15 “Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. (NKJ)
Matt 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.” (NKJ)
Matt 17:2 “and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. (NKJ)
Luke 17:24 “For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. (NKJ)
Acts 12:7 “Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, “Arise quickly!” And his chains fell off his hands.” (NKJ)
2 Cor 4:6 – For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (NKJ)
Matt 24:27 – For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (KJV)
Here lightning is described as coming out from the east and shining to the west. Lightning will flash in any direction, not just from east to west. Only the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. This text is actually talking of the bright shining for the sun. Instead of meaning that Christ will be revealed to the world suddenly, life a burst of lightning, Christ’s presence will be revealed gradually to the world, like the dawning of a new day.
Strongs 5316: phaino (fah’-ee-no); prolongation for the base of 5457; to lighten (shine), i.e. show (transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative): KJV– appear, seem, be seen, shine, X think.
Vine: APPEAR, APPEARING
1. phaino ^5316^ signifies, in the active voice, “to shine”; in the passive, “to be brought forth into light, to become evident, to appear (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Strongs 5316 is used 33 times, never translated flash – See examples
John 1:4-5 (NKJV)
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 5:35 – “He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. (NKJ)
Phil 2:15 – “that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,” (NKJ)
2 Pet 1:19 – “And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;” (NKJ)
I Jn 2:8 – “Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (NKJ)
Rev 1:16 – “He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.” (NKJ)
Rev 18:23 – “The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, (NKJ)
Rev 21:23 – “The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,” (NKJ)
There are some more of your points I would like to respond to and hope I can find some more time in the next few days.
Christian love and regards,
Peter
Anonymous – I just posted an article covering some of these points about Matt 24 and Jesus Second Presence which you can read by clicing here. I hope you find this helpful.
Jacqueline and Sharon how have my two newly baptized sisters been lately….I miss hearing from you guys!I bet you have lots of stories to share with us………
Ken I was talking about you last night. There was a sister (JW) that came on the wednesday night study and I thought it was a witness checking to see if this was really a BS or JW meeting. I thought about you. Whether someone was checking up on the number you dial. Hope it was just a mistake. I am doing so much better now cleared for work but I have tremendous scarring, hopefully that will blend over time. Witness opportunities are opening up all the time. I am loving it. I feel calmer now knowing I have gotten baptized in Jesus. It was distressing when I checked and found out the organization was in full swing when I got baptized in 1960. It distressed me realizing I was not baptized in Christ or Jehovah, now I am just satisfied. I hope to be able to attend the convention this weekend here near Chicago and the Olde Harvest convention Sept 21 where we live in Tents, trailers, Rv or you can have a hotel room. The meeting is outdoors with radiant heater in two huge tents. Little children just having a ball. I will post my article today on the witness experience at the fair.
How has it been with you and your family? I hope it is okay. We have missed you on Wednesday. Take Care
Hi, there you are! Jacqueline, I heard you were ill and so glad to know you’re recovering!I missed being on the phone meeting last night, did the woman who said she was a JW sound like an African American? When you were baptized in the 60’s, I thought the JW’s were still doing it the right way? I got baptized before they started using the words….”in association with Gods spirit directed organzation”…..I wish I could go to a BS convention, but under current situation I’m in it’s not possible.
Yes she was African American and asked pointed questions of whether it was Service meeting or ministry school. Br. Ric explained the best he could, she was a little upset when asking. I don’t listen to words, I listen to tones, she was busting someone for sure. It is a shame that adults have to be subjected to such policing by fanatical witnesses. It is silly and mind control. I informed some that might not have come on when she burst in so they would know she was checking and they could just stand up if possible. I do know however that a witness mate will walk out on you if you go to another religion, citing spiritual endangerment.
I read more about what they were doing and the organization had formed. It really reared it ugly head when they foretold the end of the world. This was 1966. At twelve years old, although we were still like the BS in my area Al. it was often said we were backwards by northern cities but we were under them as our printers. I let that be John’s baptism, LOL. If you have to do all that questioning I figure just make sure now that I understand.
The Shingles is an unforgiving illness, it is like liquid fire being poured on your nerve endings. It’s almost a month and I still have to take pain meds although the rash is dried up. But at least I survived it.LOL.
The reason I asked about the caller is because I was wondering if it could’ve been my wife…….perhaps checking the number to be sure it wasn’t another woman or something!LOL!!Shingles huh…ouch! I used to get severe dermititis that itched really bad and left a terrible skin rash scar, so I’m somewhat familiar with what you’re going through.
How many times do I have to say that I believe the prophecies are being fulfilled in our present time. Daniel 12 speaks of knowledge being widespread. Ezekiel 37-38 refers to the reestablishment of Israel. The technologies that we have today have brought much harm to the Earth as well as prosperity for some and poverty and hardship to others. Global economy, which was touted as a great achievement, has proven to be a curse more than a blessing, with countries on the verge of bankruptcy putting other countries in peril. All these things point to a climax which the Bible calls “the great tribulation”. I am sure that Jesus, under the guidance of Jehovah, is directing these things to the point where finally God’s kingdom is established on Earth. Rev 12: 7-12 speaks of a war in heaven where the accuser, Satan, is thrown down to the Earth having great fury knowing that his time is short. Satan is also called the ruler of this present age. There can be no doubt that he has a hand in the troubles we see in the world today. The savageries in the Middle East, rampant crime and atrocities throughout the world, inequalities, famine, sickness, climate change, etc… Bro. Russell, however, does not refer to Michael the Archangel in Rev 12 as Jesus. In that instance Bro Russell says that Michael represents the Papacy. So which is it the Papacy or Jesus? Jude 9 speaks of Michael arguing with the devil over the body of Moses and says “May the Lord rebuke you.” Jesus never had trouble rebuking Satan, why would he tell him “May the Lord rebuke you”. Daniel 10:13 speaks of Michael as “ONE of the chief princes”, 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Verse 21 says that Michael is the prince of Israel, is that a description of Jesus? (John 13:3). You said, “In Revelation 20:1, 2 we have a great angel coming down from heaven with a chain in his hand to bind Satan. This great angel is generally accepted to be Jesus who is the one responsible for binding Satan.” Accepted by who? To say that this angel is Jesus, is strictly speculation and jumping to conclusions. I am sure there are powerful angels in heaven capable of carrying out the assignment of binding Satan, or God can give them the power as needed. However Hebrews is the book that finalizes the argument for me. Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels (plural) as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels (again plural) did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all (notice the word all) God’s angels worship him.”
Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels (plural) did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” ?
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all (again all) angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
As the saying goes, “What part of ALL don’t you understand?”
In 1Thes 4:15-17, Paul says, “ According to the Lord’s word…” to what is he referring? Would he not be referring to Mat 24:30-31 and Mark 13:26? Jesus speaks to his disciples that He will send his angels to gather the elect together. 2Thes 1: 7-8 seems to me to be referring to Mat 25:31-33, but according to Bro Russell this occurs during the Millennial age not before (Vol. 1 page 138)
Parousia and apocalypse are believed to be two different aspects of Jesus’ return. However compare these scriptures: Wait for His parousia or presence -1 Thes. 3:13; 5:23; Jas. 5:7, 8.
Wait for His apokalupsis or revelation- 1 Cor. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7, 13. Notice verse 13 has both revealed and coming.
If in these latter days, the danger existed that Jesus would have returned and His followers would not know of it, wouldn’t He have warned His disciples. Instead He consistently warned His disciples not to listen to anyone saying that He had arrived.
Anonymous – Thanks for being persistent and sharing your perspective on these Biblical subjects. You do well to defend your position when you believe you are agreeing with the scriptures.
Earlier, when you said you felt prophecies are being fulfilled, I really didn’t understand exactly what you meant, but now I am clearer on your thoughts. You said, “Jesus, under the guidance of Jehovah, is directing these things…” To that I respond YES! This is evidence Jesus has returned. However, I imagine your position might be something like… no this is not evidence Jesus has returned, but this is his preparation work prior to his return???
I think Brother Russell is correct to identify Michael as the papacy in Daniel 12 and God as the pope. The pope was the counterfeit God and the papacy the counterfeit Michael. Much of Revelation is about this counterfeit anti-Christ system. 2 Thes 2:3, 4 says, “…that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”
Yes, I think that Michael as the prince of Israel (Dan 10:21) is Jesus. Paul tells us about Jesus in Hebrews 3:3 that He, “…was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.” So Jesus is the one that built Moses’ house (the nation of Israel under the Law Covenant). As the builder of the house, Jesus was the main messenger appearing to Moses at the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinia (Gal 3:19; Acts 7:53)as the Word or representative of Jehovah.
You are creating a straw man if you are insisting that the Greek and Hebrews words translated “angel” cannot apply to Jesus. The word for “angel” means “messenger” and it does not exclusively refer to what we call angles. There are a number of examples in the scriptures like Matt 11:10, which says, “For this is he of whom it is written: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’ “ NKJV Here John is speaking of Jesus as a messenger (Greek word for angel.)
So you don’t think it is Jesus who binds Satan? Gen 3:15 shows that the seed (Jesus) crushes Satan’s head. More broadly, it is The Christ, Head and Body who binds Satan (Rom 16:20). Jesus death’ on the Cross guaranteed Him the authority to destroy Satan (Heb 2:14)
Yes, as the Hebrews texts you quoted demonstrate, Jesus is superior to all the angels; however the Jesus is the chief messenger of Jehovah. He is the Word of God. Maby if you change out the world “messenger” for “angel” when Jesus is referred to it will not be so troublesome.
Do you think Jesus second presence will be visible to the whole world at the time he returns? If so, what is the point of watching for signs of his presence if everyone will know anyway? Some of the Thessalonian brethren thought Jesus was already invisibly present in their day. Paul had to explain to them in 2 Thess 2:1, 2, “1 Now we beseech you, brethren, regarding the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” Paul did not go on to say, don’t you remember I said in my previous letter he would descend from heaven visibly with a voice, should and trumpet? Of course not. That was symbolic. Instead Paul had to explain that first the “man of lawlessness” (the papacy / anti-Christ system) would have to be revealed before His second presence.
There’s more to say, but I am out of time. I’ll be glad to hear from you again.