The suggested answers provided to all questions below are based on and in harmony with the views of the original Watchtower Bible and Tract Society when under the guidance of Pastor Charles Taze Russell. Comments will often include a link to Pastor Russell’s own explanation. However, in any case, we leave your conclusions to your own personal study, prayer, conscience and the influence of the Holy Spirit.
- Who are the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have created this website?
- Why have the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses set up this site? What is your purpose?
- Should we really want to be on earth rather than heaven? Does the Bible give us that option?
- Are the Great Crowd the same as all the people in Paradise Earth?
- What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?
- Is the Great Crowd to be in heaven or on earth?
- Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16?
- What happens to Anointed who do not make the 144,000
- As the Path Shines Brighter, does the Truth Change?
- Why does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering?
- What is the future mission of the Anointed for which they are now being prepared?
- Will Present Unbelievers Serve and Worship Jehovah on Paradise Earth?
- Will Everyone Be Resurrected from the Dead?
- Have People Received Final Judgment for the Past 6,000 or will they have an Opportunity for Judgment and Restitution on Paradise Earth?
- Will the wicked get an opportunity to repent in Paradise earth?
- Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
- Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?
- What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?
Will those who live their lives as “more than overcomers” but have a desire to live on earth and die before armaggedon;will they be resurrected as perfect human beings?
Ken,
This is a very interesting question that touches on the “Armageddon” subject that we will be discussing on Saturday.
I believe that those who are resurrected to life are those who will be resurrected to heaven. Everyone else will be resurrected to the earth and will need to pass through the judgment before they can be perfected.
Here are some other tidbits I found in my preparation for the call in on the subject of “Who Will Survive Armageddon.”
Matthew 25:33-34 “And he will put the sheep on his right, and the goats on the left. then the king will say to those on his right, ‘come, you who are blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
“Since what the ‘other sheep’ inherit is not the kingdom of heaven which was predestined before the foundation of the new world, why is it styled a kingdom?” WT May 15, 1949, page 152
“The great flock ‘other sheep’ do not possess the heavenly kingdom, but, surviving the battle of Armageddon under his right hand of protection, they will enjoy the King’s favor from the very start of his reign of a thousand years. This will be their everlasting inheritance on earth in the realm of the Kingdom.” WT May 15, 1949, page 153
“In being cursed, the “goats” are opposite from the ‘sheep’, who are the ones having the heavenly Father’s blessing.” WT May 15, 1949, page 155
“The King concludes the parable and his prophecy on the full end of this world, saying: ‘And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.’ (Matt. 25: 46) The rewards of the two classes are opposites, and since the righteous inherit life eternal on earth in the new world, the ‘everlasting punishment’ of the ‘goat’ class must be everlasting destruction. Even the ‘sheep’ do not get immortality; that is exclusively the reward of the King’s brothers in heaven. But the ‘sheep’ get everlasting life which is dependent upon the everlasting Government of their immortal King. For this reason the ‘goats’ could never be punished with immortality in eternal torment. They get a death sentence, and this sentence is everlasting, resurrection-less, and hence is an everlasting punishment. They do not need to be and neither will they be brought back at the end of the King’s thousand year reign to see the Kingdom conditions in perfect bloom and then show their opposition to his Theocratic Government. The King says they show their opposition right now, by their treatment of his brothers. They show their colors now. So their destruction has no letup. ,8 Ah, but the righteous ‘sheep’ enter life eternal, this ‘sheep’ class even passing alive under the shadow of the King’s right hand through the battle of Armageddon into the endless new world. So why not decide now to be one of his ‘sheep’ at his right hand?” WT May 15, 1949, page 157
If the non-anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the sheep mentioned in the parable, and not the goats, what are they?
The current thinking on this identification appears to have changed.
“The righteous ones” who receive everlasting life are those who loyally support Christ’s spirit-anointed “brothers.” (Matt. 25:31-34, 40, 41, 45, 46) Since the anointed are chosen to be rulers in the heavenly Kingdom, “the righteous ones” must be the earthly subjects of that Kingdom.” WT 8/15/2009
So now the 144,000 are not the sheep, and those who support the 144,000 are the sheep? Now the 144,000 did not inherit the kingdom, but these other sheep did?
If the 144,000 are not involved in this parable and ‘off the scene,’ are they not judging with Christ? According to the Jws they are not. So what are they doing?
In this interpretation, these ‘sheep’ enter immediately into ‘everlasting life’ based on what they do now, before armageddon and the separation of the sheep & goats…. it is no wonder the JWs I spoke with last week appeared to think that they would be resurrected to life, and not resurrected to judgment ….. even though they said they would be judged for 1000 years.
Thanks for the info. Jeff! The modern day JW’s(“Rutherfordites”)seem to have never nailed down the identity of the “great crowd” and “other sheep”…always flip/flopping on their understanding of it. I remember hearing many talks over the years where the speaker will one minute say…”all of God’s loyal servants will get everlasting life”,then,in the very next sentence,he’ll say something like: “yeah if you’re a good boy and past the final test you’ll get everlasting life”….always leaving you unsure about your hope!!
Jacqueline, the more I think and pray about it, the more my decision is leaning toward getting reinstated.My understanding is that you still go to the hall right?
Noooooooo! I stopped going in sept 2009, listen in until dec.31, 2009. Found the Bible students at a conventio Jan 1, 2010 and the rest is history. I was a BS for the first 12yrs of my life with my mom she was going to both then left strictly for JW when intergration hit the south in 1960’s. I will go when visiting relatives to keep them from having a heart attack plus little ones don’t understand me not going if they have to go. while visiting only. Maybe 2 times a year. Every time I came across a CO or DO that I thought was smart I would tell them about these people I remember that was just like us. They would say if they knew that they were dead, Some would say, there is no one with even the slightest belief like ours. It plagued me because I would answer in the book study and KH with some of the beliefs I remembered. They used to call the Southern congregations like us backwards when I visited Chicago every summer. We didn’t totally come over until the 60″s.
Oh ok(you said “no” so emphatically..LOL!)
I used to read Raymond Franz book the last year I attended right in the KH in a burgundy Bible cover. I sat against the wall in the back and just almost as one elder said became a part of the pattern. If I raised my hand during watchtower he said he looked for it. I almost became mute. I jumped up when they said amen and walked out. I asked him why do you call on me when you can look at the paragraph and see I am going to straighten it out. He said that’s what I wanted. LOL I was so happy when I walked in my first BS convention, they would have got away with it if they just locked me up for a minute until I calmed down. I couldn’t believe they were “Dead Man Walking”. The society lied to us and said they were dead.
Reminds me of when I first got df’d, I would only use a non witness Bible (NIV) and would study lessons from another religious teaching while the meeting was going on!
How many people on this site ,besides Jacqueline, are both JW and BS at the same time?
Ken – Several on this site have become or are associating with Bible Students. But we want to protect their privacy. Some of our friends have strict JW family members and they would be in danger of shunning and disfellowship if it were discorvered that they involved with Bible Students. Interesting point. A JW concept is that Christ Jesus inspected the various religious organizations on earth in 1919. After cleansing those persons affiliated with the Watch Tower Society from religious and worldly defilement, he appointed them to be the “faithful and discrete slave” and his “sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those 1919 views are nearly the same as what Bible Students believe today. Any JW promoting these views would be labeled an Apostate. Yet these are the very views they had at the time in which they passed inspection???
I know, it’s crazy isn’t it Peter! I wonder if the beliefs they have now will become obsolete in the near future and members would be disf’d for reading them..LOL!!!As you know I’m Disf’d ,however, I’ve been going to all the meetings because my wife gets deadly ill if I don’t(seriously!. Since I’ve been going so regularly,my wife and the elders are wondering when I’m going to write a letter for reinstatement. I’m juggeling the idea around thinking how I’d be able to see my grand kids and how happy my wife would be if I got reinstated,the thing is, I know I’d never stop studying the volumes in the scriptures nor anything else related to Bible students….boy I’m confused! Anybody out there have any suggestions?
Ken, I would like to say something that sounds like a cop out but hear me out. Some might not understand either. My suggestion is play their game. If you are in a position to get reinstated do so. FOR YOUR WIFE”S SAKE. She is the victim here and as her husband you can make her life easier. She has not been released yet from their exploitation. Say whatever you have to say and as little as possible. Get reinstated, that’s all your wife wants. Then you will be free to fade this time. Remember the angel volunteered to go down and fool the king. They have made the org an idol and we know an idol is nothing in the world. Beat them at their own game fool them and put your wife in a more receptive mood. If she is getting ill (and I believe you, for real ill, I have seen this)think only of her for the brief moment it takes you to play their game. She is looked upon as a scorned woman and to some extent ostracized for you. So do her a favor get back reinstated and fade, she won’t care. I am a woman, I think I know how a JW woman feels. Also Monique, Sharon and some of the other womwn can let you see your wife through a JW woman’s eyes. They may or may not agree. They are playing a game with people’s family. Play with them and play to win.
PS: after just reading Jeff’s comment I will not cut them any slack!
Thank you Jacqueline, I like your reasoning,I’ll listen to some more views before I decide…………..
Ken I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that anyone else viewing this try to get reinstated by going to those corporate meetings. I’m just saying since you are already investing your time and enduring, you might as well get something for your time invested.(:). DF’d means absolutely nothing in the scope of the love of Christ. Jesus was DF’d from an org just like this one (sanhedrin priest) and killed so you are in among good company. He bore the stigmas to achieve a goal. Just thought I would clarify. And it would be nice for you to set the terms of leaving on your own.
Does anyone know when and why the belief of the great crowd ,spoken of in Rev. chapter 7, being in heaven changed to them being on Earth?
Ken – Jeff has a better handle on the historical changes than me, but I’ll get the discussion started. A major foundational concept of the early Watchtower was the importance of “character development.” Christ is selecting his bride who as his body members are to share in being earth’s future kings, priests and judges. Rev 14:4,5 says of them, “These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [faithful to Jehovah, not earthly organizations}. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes… And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Judge Rutherford said, “we don’t develop character, we are characters.” I suspect that eliminating the focus on character development helped to assuage his own conscience. By having the Organization focus on the Great Crowd, he could now have millions of followers, not tied to the old “character develpment” thinking. That thinking would would breed christians who would resist his infringement on Christian liberty, as well as his harsh behavior, which did not reflect christlike humility, kindness and gentleness.
Thank you Brother Peter!
Hi Ken,
The first time this was mentioned in a WT article was in the August 1, and August 15th, 1935 issues. . . . 21 very long pages which took up almost the entire issue.
In the articles, Rutherford’s reasoning for this begins, “Jehovah’s chief purpose was not seen and appreciated by the modern-day followers of Christ Jesus until after the coming of the Lord to the temple.” In other words he speaks of their interpretation that Jesus came to the Jehovah’s Witness’ temple in 1919…after many of the Bible Students had left. This is his reasoning for why God picked his group, instead of theirs.
“Now we see that Jehovah’s chief purpose is the vindication of his name; that men who maintain their integrity toward Jehovah are the ones who have any part in the vindication of Jehovah’s name; that God has taken out from amongst
men a people for his name . . . [and] in order to be approved, must faithfully maintain their integrity toward God. In view of these indisputable truths, is it reasonable that God would have another spiritual class in heaven
made up of those whom he has taken out of the human race and who have agreed to do his will but who, because of fear of men or the Devil’s crowd, have compromised with Satan’s organization and been, at least to a large degree, unfaithful unto the Lord and yet the Lord would give them a place in his heavenly organization?”
Rutherford’s reasoning to blot out all remembrance of the Bible Students’ who had left continues. He even goes as far to suggest that they compromize with “Satan’s Organization.”
Rutherford’s reasoning continues now against those in the Churches.
“Is the great multitude to be found in the church denominations, which multitude of persons have heard the command of God to come out therefrom but have failed and refused to do so because of fear to obey God’s commandment?”
This is an attempt by Rutherford to separate his group from all denominations.
Rutherford attempts to simplify the matter…
“Therefore the great multitude must either (1) be identical with the entire body of Christ; or (2) be the specific members of that heavenly body
taken out from the Gentiles ; or (3) be the people of good will that flee to the Lord and become a part of his organization after the coming of the Lord Jesus to the temple.”
This is another attempt to point to his 1918-1919 appointment, and to add ‘scriptural support’ to bolster his claim that his organization is God’s chosen.
This is just the first five long pages of the article. He hadn’t even yet begun to try to give the Scriptural support for his new opinion. All that he had supplied by this point was a philosophy of man.
By the 4th page he attempts to supply Scriptures, but…..
“This does not at all mean, however, that the great multitude of Revelation ‘7 : 9 is the same as that mentioned in 19 : 6. Some have contended that they are one and the same great multitude because the 144,000 creatures constitute a great multitude and do participate in the praise of Jehovah. But if that be true, then why would the Lord specify 144,000 and then again specifically describe them as another company that are without numberP There does not seem to be any reason to conclude that the great multitude of Revelation ‘7 : 9 are identical with the 144,000 described in Revelation
7 : 4-s.”
No reasoning is given why not. The reasoning seems to suggest more strongly that they ARE in heaven!
Rutherford next says…”this would not necessarily negative the proof that the great multitude is a part of the body of Christ.”
I’m not sure anyone would suggest that the great multitude is a part of the body of Christ I think that this shows that he really didn’t know what he believed and was a bit confused by it. If you read his book on the “Ransom” from 1907 you can see that he really didn’t have a complete grasp on the Ransom either. Thats how he could change its meaning and yet claim he was teaching the same thing!
His next reasoning is strange…
“Relating to the same matter Jehovah caused Jeremiah to write: “As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured ; so will I
multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.” (Jer. 33: 22) This does not at all mean that God does not know the number of the ‘Seed of promise’, but it clearly does mean that no man unaided by the Lord could possibly know. The stars and sands, therefore, must have been used merely to illustrate this point.”
Why would he quote a scripture about not being able to number both the stars and sand and use that as ONLY a proof for not being able to number the sand?…or great growd?
The next reasoning was based on his thinking the great crowd and body of Christ were the same…. he suggested that if the 144,000 were ‘jews’ and the great crowd were ‘gentiles’, they couldn’t be the same! Of course not! They aren’t the same, but to use this reasoning to suggest they are on the earth is quite suspect.
This same ‘reasoning’ about the body continues…
“This being so, the “great multitude” are not in the covenant for the kingdom,
and therefore could not be the Gentile members of the body of Christ nor of the same class; nor are they spirit-begotten. This conclusion is supported by Revelation 14: l-5. There the statement, in substance, is that the 144,000 stand with Christ Jesus at Mount Zion and that these learn the new song, which no others could learn or sing except the 144,000; that these are the ones that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth, that is to say, they are footstep followers of Christ Jesus. This latter text shows that the “great multitude” could not possibly picture the Gentile extraction of the body of Christ, because all the members thereof surely must and do stand with Christ
Jesus on Mount Zion, following him whithersoever he goes, and learn to sing the new song.”
He then states that the great company are not a spirit begotten company, but states this without any evidence.
His next reasoning is on the JW time prophecies…
“The latter part of 1919 marks the bcginning of the Elisha period of the church and the work incident thereto, and by the time this company reached 1922 that service work was organized and under way, and it was then that “this gospel of the kingdom” was being carried to the nations, peoples and tongues, that is to say, the common people, and also to the “kings” or rulers of the earth. Thereafter God’s remnant discerned, by his grace, that there must be a great witness work done concerning God’s kingdom and that such work must continue “until the cities [organization of Satan] be wasted without [an] inhabitant, . . . and the land be utterly desolate”. (Isa. 6: 11) It was in the year 1922 that the Lord’s faithful people first came to a knowledge and understanding of this scripture last cited…”
Again there is no evidence here and only a pointing to himself as the one appointed in 1919….
About six pages into the article the suspicious “before the throne” comment is thrown into the mix and talked about for some time.
I find most of these pages of his reasoning strange…why would you point to yourself being appointed in 1919 as an evidence that anything you said was right. How would this prove anything?
This article goes on for several more pages…if any are interested I can add more in the future.
Ahh! Wonderful Jeff…thank you so much! I can see from what I read Rutherford didn’t have a solid basis for his understanding of the great crowd, and for him to say the organization passed inspection in 1919 is a joke!
How should a meeting be conducted if there are several new individuals that come to a small ecclesia for the first time?
Hi Bro Jeff & Ken here is something interesting. i was reading through Ezekiel 44. then i started to wonder how the JWs get around verses 11-14 so i did a search in the watchtower library CD. and discovered these verses have not been mentioned in over 80 years the only reference to these verses is in the book Vindication that Rutherford wrote and you can no longer look at that book on the watchtower library. so i did search for the book vindication volume 3 and then i came across the website you posted Jeff from what i understand this site is actually run by Jws. here is what Rutherford had to say about these verses Bro humbleman
The chambers (
I-B1-30) made in the court round about were for the Levites, or non-priests. This would indicate that God has a place for them in his organization in connection with the priesthood or royal house, but in the outer quarters, and not close to the Lord God, such as his royal priesthood enjoys. The pavement mentioned in verses seventeen and eighteen of the fortieth chapter was called “the lower pavement”. It was seven steps above the outside, but was lower than the pavement of the inner court (I-H), which is utilized by the royal priesthood. This picture shows the position of the “great multitude”. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the “great multitude” will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures. The statement in The Revelation that the “great multitude” ‘wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb’ shows that they are approved by Jehovah by manifesting their abiding faith in Christ Jesus’ shed blood at the time the crucial test comes upon them. The “great multitude” will be in God’s organization, but not high up ‘in the mountain of the Lord’s house’. They must be spirit creatures in order to be in the outer court of the divine structure, described by Ezekiel. Agreeable to this it is written, in Revelation 7:15: “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”
The “great multitude”, by reason of coercion exercised by unfaithful shepherds, and by reason of fear, is held for a long while in “prison cells” of Satan’s
Humbleman,
This is very interesting. I’ve been doing some research recently as to when and why Rutherford changed the doctrines over the years. I’m finding some interesting things. A book was written on this subject in 1930 called “Desolation of the Sanctuary.” Email me and I’ll send you an electronic copy.
Did Joseph Rutherford write his own “volumes in the scriptures” like Russell did?
Ken,
Here is a listing of Rutherford’s books.
http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/index2.html
Some of the early books were ok, such as the early edition of The Harp of God, or even his Comfort for the Jews.
Too bad he created his own religion a few short years later.
Thanks Jacqueline….be sure to take some booklets with you, you never know who you may bump into!
Rutherford wrote what is often referred to as the “rainbow” series of books, so called because of their bright colors. The rumor has gone around for many years and I understand there is some evidence out there that some or much of Rutherford’s books and other writings were ghost written by Frederic Franz. It is known that Rutherford did decide on what teachings would be advanced in the literature and Franz, who had about three years of college with training in ancient languages, would be assigned to figure out how to give them a biblical trapping. Franz remind in that role but with more public exposure when Knorr took over the presidency of the Watchtower.
Very interesting Dupin, thanks!
How do you search for subjects on this site?
Ken, Br. Peter probably has a better way, but I go to the left and look for the general subject, click and look at the one I really want. For instance Paradise earth: It will list all six subjects on paradise earth. Ask Jacqueline will list all subjects written or submitted for ask Jacueline.Governing body has 3 articles and so on and so on. The search doesn’t seem to work for me. Probably don’t know what I am doing.
I know others wondered the same thing Ken.
The sun is out! I think I will walk around the block and see what’s goin on.
Ken – You can also type a search word or phases in the search box in the upper right corner. Another way is looking here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/article/
I meant…THANKS all for the help!