The suggested answers provided to all questions below are based on and in harmony with the views of the original Watchtower Bible and Tract Society when under the guidance of Pastor Charles Taze Russell. Comments will often include a link to Pastor Russell’s own explanation. However, in any case, we leave your conclusions to your own personal study, prayer, conscience and the influence of the Holy Spirit.
- Who are the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have created this website?
- Why have the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses set up this site? What is your purpose?
- Should we really want to be on earth rather than heaven? Does the Bible give us that option?
- Are the Great Crowd the same as all the people in Paradise Earth?
- What is the role of the Great Crowd on Paradise Earth?
- Is the Great Crowd to be in heaven or on earth?
- Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16?
- What happens to Anointed who do not make the 144,000
- As the Path Shines Brighter, does the Truth Change?
- Why does God Permit Evil and Human Suffering?
- What is the future mission of the Anointed for which they are now being prepared?
- Will Present Unbelievers Serve and Worship Jehovah on Paradise Earth?
- Will Everyone Be Resurrected from the Dead?
- Have People Received Final Judgment for the Past 6,000 or will they have an Opportunity for Judgment and Restitution on Paradise Earth?
- Will the wicked get an opportunity to repent in Paradise earth?
- Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
- Who does Jehovah make the New Covenant with?
- What prophecies regarding Israel’s regathering have already been or are being fulfilled?
Peter, I appreciate your comments and opinions, thank you for your time. I understand what you mean when you say that Jesus did not make his parables easy to understand to the populous. However, as I mentioned before, you have to consider the context of the situation as well as what was said. Jesus is not talking to the people in general when he told this illustration. As you can see from the beginning of Mat. 24, Mk 13 or Lk 21, this is a continuation of the Olivet Discourse as Jacqueline inferred. Notice this discourse does not end until the 26th chapter in Matthew’s case. He is talking to his apostles in this instance,”3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”(Mark 13:3-4). ( I use Mark here, since he names the apostles.) In Mat 24:36, He first tells them why they are to watch, ”But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” He reiterates this message again Mat. 24:42-44 and again after the parable in 25:13. He goes on to give his apostles two further illustrations namely, the parable of the talents and the one of the sheep and the goats, which you alluded to. In both these illustrations he explains to his apostles what he means. “28Take therefore the talent [spiritual knowledge] from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.“ The same with the parable of the sheep and the goats, he explains why the sheep deserve to receive the Kingdom and why the goats do not, as you explained. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, his apostles approached him privately afterwards and asked what he meant and he then explained it to them. In the case of the Olivet Discourse he did not wait for them to ask since he wasn’t talking to the public but to them alone. The message was an important one since he knew he would not be with them much longer. Therefore he spoke to them in simple terms that they understood. It was a matter of life or death, Jerusalem was to be destroyed and they needed to know and tell others when to get out. Mat 24: “15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.” This was no time to talk in riddles, it was simple clear and urgent message, watch and be prepared! In any case that is my reasoning as to why I prefer the simple explanation. I do appreciate your input, as it wasn’t until we had this discussion that I was able to fully understand this parable. Thanks Ken for bringing up the subject. I’m glad we are able to agree to disagree. In Christian love…
Bob – I agree Matt 24 & 25 are a continuous narrative. I think Matt 24 is full of symbolic meaning, including a double application to the ends of the Jewish and Gospel Ages, which is well explained here. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Peter, thanks again for your reply and thoughts, I appreciate reading other’s viewpoints. This discussion has helped me understand, that the more I look into this parable, the more I am convinced the explanation is a simpler one than what we are trying to decipher. My problem has been reading too much into this parable, as Ken mentioned. It is true that virgins and oil are symbols throughout the scriptures. However, I feel that the context of the scripture is very important to determine what is being said. Oil is used to anoint kings and priests, etc… but no one in the parable is being anointed. The oil in the parable is only used to keep the torches lit. The wise virgins had the foresight to bring extra oil and therefore were prepared for any eventuality. They were prepared as well as watchful and they were blessed for it by being allowed into the feast (Rev 19:9). The foolish virgins were not. Jesus is using the illustration of a wedding to show how his disciples should be watchful and prepared, as Jacqueline said earlier. I don’t think there is any symbolism to be placed on the virgins, oil, or anything else. Jesus even tells us what the meaning of the parable is in verse 13, “Therefore keep WATCH, because YOU do not know the day or the hour. “ In the other illustration you mention, that of Mat. 22, the meaning is completely different. There, the parable is meant to show how the nation of Israel disregarded the invitation by Jehovah to accept His son as their king. Therefore He destroyed their city (70 AD) and opened the door for the gentiles as well as the Jews to be invited to the wedding feast, “…the bad as well as the good,…” (Mat 22:10 NIV). Other than the wedding feast, I don’t see the correlation between the two parables. I do see a similarity in the illustration Jesus uses in Luke 12: 35 – 40. There, after being told to keep watch with their lamps burning, the same admonition is given in verse 40, “You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” I don’t know if you’ll agree, but this is what is beginning to make sense to me.
Bob – Thanks again. Certainly the simpler lesson of watching is a very good one. I prefer to take as a model, Jesus interpretation of the Matt 13 parable of the wheat and tares, since he actually showed us how to interpret it. I prefer to follow that pattern. In Matt 25, Jesus also speaks of the parable of the sheep and the goats, where I think the sheep specifically apply to people in the earthly kingdom who chose to follow Jesus, whereas the goats are self-willed ones who do not join in. They reject and do not cooperate with the effort to spiritually feed and encourage others. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, The Rich Man is the Jewish Nation and Lazarus, the gentiles who accept Christ. So I think in parables, each of the characters represent something specific.
Jesus did not intend to make his parables simple enough for the average observer to understand.
Matt 13: (NASV) 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. … 13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”
However, the simpler lesson is certainly of great value and we can agree on that.
Thanks again.
Tell me what you guys think about this……after I was df’d almost 2 years ago now, the elders told my wife she could no longer show affection for me in the meetings!
They said no couples can hold hands or put arms around mate”s neck while in meetings about 2 years or so ago. In this day and age I wonder how grown people over 21 lets anyone tell them what they can and can’t do with their marriage mate. If we step back and just look inside as an outsider, this is a little psychotic. These men have lost their senses. And I really mean this, something is wrong mentally and I must say witnesses are not behaving normally when they accept this type of behaviour. Reminds me of Jim Jones. He dictated private matters between his married people. We have to admit there is a problem with the members (publishers) also not just the GB. What type of people are attracted to JW? That is why I went to get my psych degree to see why my mother and other family members raised me in this.
With you behind her, I can’t believe a wife would let other men tell her what to do. Didn’t mean to say so much, but witnesses have got to realize this is not normal healthy behaviour.
PS: I don’t mean couples making out now. But some couples hold hands while prayer is going on. Also in their defense, I have seen some odd behaviour that would want you to suggest that they go home. But this is far and in between. Don’t know why people would do that in Church anyway. But they had reference to holding hands and putting arms around mate so that the many, many, many single sisters would not feel bad. Many have believed and is waiting to marry in new world, strange, but.
Amen Jacqueline! You what though, I followed along with that for a while until I realized how odd and dictatorial that rule is,besides, it’s not even scriptural.So tell me, since studied psychology, what are your conclusions about the Jw religion and the kind of people who join?
Got a patient for next 2hrs. Will get back later with answer. I need to think first also.
Is He/She a Jw:)Talk to you later!
Ken I know this should be an article but here is my answer to your question.
I would not say it is so much what type of people are attracted to the religion as it is why they stay. The method of read watchtower when it comes in, study it, then read paragraph from platform, ask question and hear others quote it again is called indoctrination. Cut off all thoughts except those of a few will create certain types of people Jesus said at John 17:15 “I request you not take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They totally segregate their thought, and physically cut off any association except with JW, even separating them from family. So this creates people that are dependent on the governing body.
There have been more recent Jehovah witness splinter groups than occurred after the death of Br. Russell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_splinter_groups.
The unique way that JW proselytize attracts a certain segment of the population. (1) In the home you can segregate a person, unlike at a revival service etc. They may like the appeal of no burning hell. But after some years find they have substituted it for something much worst, a no resurrection, no escaping Armageddon, unless they remain in the confines of the religious body. As Frederick Douglas recognized, a form of slavery. It is a mental state where they have relied on others to do their thinking for so long they find it hard to escape. Unless they physically, with their legs, remove themselves from the voice and indoctrination of their slave master they can’t get free from the mental slavery.
Frederick Douglas didn’t buy into the notion that the slaves couldn’t make decisions for themselves without the slave master. He escaped physically. That is what it takes to totally get free. However in our area in the 70’s onward the society went after women loaded down with children out of wedlock etc. With that came the men that were told how many single women there were and how submissive and foot on the neck they were. If some brothers are really truthful they will admit this was always held out as a lure. (If they won’t admit it, I might ask a few to come on and admit they were told this.) So you have 2Tim 3:5,6 having a fulfillment in the congregation. They even apologized for the bringing in of the prisoners that destroyed the lives of some of our sisters. Also it attracts predators of children in a religion that dumbs down the family unity and punishment for standing up for yourself.
You also have a class of people that came in because they really liked the paradise earth as many felt they would not ever be good enough to go to heaven. They liked the organization and structure. Much like a good job. CO, DO and some elders like the great authority and power that they had. Thus you see this power thing. You have the deaf that is a major class sort after now. They will get the individual attention of an in home Bible study and subsequent sense of community. The deaf community has spoken out against this targeting in recent years. Plus no hellfire.
Jim Jones had people from all walks of life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones Rutherford was much like him in a way he offered unity and leadership. The Catholic Church offered Rutherford a tried and proven system of Bishops and Cardinals( CO , DO) to keep people in line. So what I am saying is ordinary people of various characters are attracted to the message presented, which in some ways is a good message. Although a little distorted from the truth of the Bible. It is more what type of people stay. People that have lost the ability to think for themselves. In fact the society says unless they change a thought on scripture, even if you can prove it wrong from the Bible, you must teach it until they see fit to change it. They claim there must be unity to survive as an organization. JW is not so much a religion as it is a corporation that has benefits. Catholics allow the Bishops and Pope to interpret scripture. It frees them they think from accountability to God if they are worshipping wrong. God allows this as it is in the Millennium that it will be a time for accountability.
Now you have a “conscious class” that like Martin Luther King Jr. recognizes this system for what it is “Slavery”. The commenter (Frederick Douglas) was alluding I think to that point. Pretty soon they will have only none thinking people. BTW their count of 7million includes DF’d and the splinter groups in their count including me. I know you didn’t expect this as your answer. LOL
Peter, I appreciate your input into this discussion, I am trying to get an understanding of what Jesus meant. I have to admit, all this symbolism of the oil, the wise vs.the foolish virgins, etc.. is confusing to me, I can’t see the relevance. I am viewing this parable from the perspective of the people who heard Jesus say it. Even though the bride is never mentioned the people knew that she was there, it was taken for granted and did not need to be mentioned. Therefore, as I see it, there are two classes; the bride and the virgins. The custom of the times would dictate that each class had an individual role to play in the wedding feast. As you pointed out in vol. 3, the virgins followed the bride, catered to her needs and carried torches to light the way. Therefore, to me, it would seem that if the bride represents the elect class that will rule with Jesus and she is already with the groom (Jesus), then the virgins must represent another class of people that are invited to the wedding but are not of the elect class. Such a group is mentioned in Rev 19:9. You are correct that the bible is full of symbols, but I find it difficult to think that two different symbols represent the same thing in the same parable. Jesus is spoken of as a lamb in one instance, when he is led to be crucified, and as a lion when takes his rightful place as king in the millennium. Those are two different instances. Here, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the bride, though not stated but insinuated, is the same as her wise virgin companions, that both are of the elect class. That Jesus would use an illustration so completely against the customs and traditions of the times, is difficult for me to comprehend. I don’t think the people listening to him would have been able to relate to such a story. So far, what I get from this parable, is not that the virgins were the of the bride class or that they even represented anyone in particular. I see this illustration in the same light as Luke 12:35-40, watch and be ready. I agree with Ken, sometimes one can read too much into a story. As I said, I appreciate your views, thank you for your comments.
If anything, I think the Virgins would represent ‘great company’.
Ken – Can we divide the virgins into two classes – 1) wise and 2) foolish?
Of those who build their foundation in Christ (1 Cor 3:11), the ones who build well on their foundation are rewarded (vs 14), but those who build poorly are disciplined, yet still saved (vs 15). Can this be your two classes, the wise and foolish virgins? Both groups are Holy Spirit Anointed. The Wise are faithful and are rewarded. The Foolish do not build a strong Christian character upon their foundation in Christ, yet they are disciplined and saved.
This idea of two groups is illustrated in other scriptures.
1 Cor 9:24 says, “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize?” So of all the anointed, not eveyone obtains the prize of being part of the heavenly bride of Christ.
Phil 3 says “11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.”
Bob – Thanks for these very thoughtful comments. In Matt 22.1-14, we have the parable of the Wedding Feast. Do you agree that the guests with the wedding garment on picture Holy Spirit Anointed Christians (the earthly prospective bride of Christ)? If so, then doesn’t this show that in a parable we should not feel compeled to make the literal “bride” represent the spiritual bride of Christ?
Here is how I go about attempting to let scripture interpret scripture, so as to determine what is meant by “Virgins” and “Oil.”
VIRGINS
2 Cor 11:2 says, “I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.”
Rev 14:4 says, “It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb.”
Can we therefore agree that in the Bible virgins represent the followers of Christ on earth of which some ultimately become his body members in heaven?
OIL
We all know that oil was used for anointing kings and priests in the Old Testament. Hence the words “anointing” and “oil” go together.
Acts 10:38 –“God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit… “
2 Corinthians 1 (NASV) “21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.”
1 John 2:20 – “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.”
1 John 2:27 – “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
Can we agree that “anointing” in the New Testament refers to Christians followers of Christ who are baptized into Christ’s body and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Therefore can we agree that the Bible is telling us that “oil” represents the Holy Spirit?
In order to stay objective, shouldn’t we try to be consistent in how we apply scripture symbols?
“Hence the door was shut and they were rejected from membership in Christ’s Heavenly body. They would not be earth’s future judges, priests and kings.” This describes the bride class, yet you say the bride is in the wedding banquet already with the groom, so the virgins can’t be the bride.
“At a fixed hour the bridegroom set out for his bride, who was waiting in readiness to receive him and to accompany him to their future home and to the feast which he had provided, followed by her virgin companions with lamps and all the necessary preparations.” This also agrees with what I said that the virgins do not picture the bride. So, I’m not sure I understand, are you agreeing with me?
Bob – I can only give you my opinion as I welcome yours. I beleive the wise virgines represent the body of Christ to be glorified when going through the door. In a parable symbols are used to represent something. As you are very familiar, symbols are used a lot in the Bible. Jesus is described as a lion in one place and as a lamb in another. The lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world is not a literal lamb any more than the “bride” never even meantioned in the Wise & Foolish Virgins parable represents represents a literal “bride” or even the “bride of Christ,” the members of Christ’s body. The “bride” is not central to the story, just as in Matt 22, in the Wedding Feast parable, the anointed earthly members of Christ’s body are picutured by the guests, not the bride. I think the problem is taking the parable literally when it has symbolic meaning, like the Matt 13 parable of the Wheat and Tares.
Here I go again asking questions! This is kind of a poll: how many of you consider yourselfs as one of the little flock,if so, why?
Ken, I simply stick with Christian and whatever or wherever Jehovah or Jesus sees fit to use me I am ready. Never imagined heaven as a witness but now, I hope that at death I have proved faithful.
Wish you the best today Ken in your Judicial meeting.
Ok thanks!
Results of my judicial meeting: Hello everyone,I met with the elders last night,the meeting lasted about 45 min. The verdict……NO! “you have to give it more time, write another letter, sometime in the future, then we’ll see”. They were very nice and pleasant to talk to and I could tell they had my best interest in mind, they didn’t have a pompous attitude or anything. To be honest I was relieved they said no, now I’ll have more time to finish the SITS!
Ken, did they give you any reasons other than it needs more time? One would think that they would try to find Scriptural reasons for the decisions they make rather than rely on their own feelings and understanding.
Hi Jeff, haven’t from you in a while, hope all is ok. During the meeting,believe it or not, they only looked up two scriptures, one was from Joshua(“this book of the law must not depart from your mouth…..”) and I forgot the other one. I was originally disfellowshipped for an addiction to a very common legal drug(I’ll let you guess). they said the time period since the last time I used it hasn’t been long enough.
My dear brother Ken, yes, I can guess what legal substance you were addicted to. LOL Really a big thing for keeping the congregation clean since it is so serious a sin to your spirituality! (Yeah, right!) I think your spirituality would be better strengthened surrounded by the love of your loving spiritual brothers and sisters. I find it really eye-opening to think just how forgiving the brothers are. NOT! I guess it shows just how human they are because Jehovah is so much MORE forgiving. They have no conception of the mercy of our Father. “The time period since the last time I used hasn’t been long enough.” How ridiculous is that? If you’re not using and you’re trying hard to refrain AND you’re repentant, that is long enough. Grrrrrrrrrr!!! The Watchtower Society – GOD’s representative on earth!!! NOT!!!
Ken – I consider myself prospectively part of the Little Flock, the body of Christ here on earth. I can only hope to be part of the glorified body of Christ in heaven. I have the opportunity as do you. Perhaps these scriptures will help.
2 Tim 2:8 (NASV) “in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.”
1 Pet 1:3 (Weymouth) “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance imperishable, undefiled and unfading, which has been reserved in Heaven for you”
1 Cor 9:24 (NASV) “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.”
Phil 3:14 (NASV) “13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”
I don’t think the virgins in this parable are meant to be anyone in particular. Jacqueline is correct when she says that this parable is about watching and being prepared. When Jesus gave a parable, his listeners had to have a reference to what he was talking about even if they didn’t understand what he meant. The parable of the sower, the parable of the prodigal son, the parable of the fishes, etc… His listeners were familiar with these parables and could relate to them since they were farmers, fishermen, had families, etc… None of his listeners would have been able to relate to a bridegroom coming to marry 10 virgins and finding only 5. In my opinion, the virgins could not have been the brides in this instance, because brides waiting for the bridegroom were decked out in their finest and made to look as beautiful as possible for the groom. Psalm 45:13-15 gives us a glimpse of what the duties of the virgins were in regard to the bride. They were to attend to their every need. No bride would be waiting for her groom dressed in her finest gown and also trimming the wicks in her torch or adding oil to it, Jesus listeners would not have been able to relate to this. The bride would not be the one carrying the torch or oil for it in the first place. The reason the foolish virgins were locked out of the wedding feast, was because they insulted the groom and his guests by not being ready when they were supposed to be. A similar account is in Luke 12:35-38, although that story does not mention virgins, the similarity and point of the story deals with waiting and watching in preparedness. It is true that virgins in some scriptures describe the bride class, however, that doesn’t necessarily apply in every instance. In this case, I believe the parable applies more to the scripture found in Rev 19:9. The virgins were all invited to the wedding banquet but only the wise ones were let in and blessed. I think that even though the bride is not mentioned in the parable, Jesus listeners would have known, because of their customs and traditions, that the bride came with the groom to the wedding feast. I can’t imagine the groom coming to the wedding feast alone and hoping he would find a bride there ready for him. That would mean that he did not know who or how many he was going to marry until he arrived, if all the virgins had been foolish there would not have been a wedding.
Bob – Thanks. I hope you don’t mind if I give a different perspective. In the parable, the bridegroom was not marrying the virgins. He was already espoused to marry the bride. The virgins were the companions of that bride and were attending the marriage-feast. A bride is not even mentioned in the parable because a bride is not part of Jesus lesson. Of course a bride was to complete the marriage union with the bridegroom at the wedding ceremony, however, the focus of this parable is the virgins arriving for wedding ceremony and banquet that followed.
In Matt 22:1-14, we have a parable of the Wedding Feast. In this parable, there is also a bride assumed. However, the bride of Christ is not pictured by the bride that is implied in the story. It is actually the guests that come to the wedding feast with a wedding garment (justification), that are the prospective members of the bride of Christ.
So in the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins, the Wise Virgins represent Christians Anointed filled with the holy spirit. These Christians have been active in growing that spirit all their lives and they enter the door, picturing their acceptance as Jesus’ heavenly body members. The Foolish Virgins did not bring extra oil. They had the holy spirit, but were not filled with it. They were told to go to the market to purchase more oil. This pictures growing more of the Holy Spirit by applying Biblical lessons and principles in our lives in the market place of experience. The Wise Virgins had been doing this all along, but for the Foolish Virgins, it was too little too late. Hence the door was shut and they were rejected from membership in Christ’s Heavenly body. They would not be earth’s future judges, priests and kings.
This background information on the Jewish customs should help:
Vol 3 p191 “The marriage custom of the Jews… The espousal or betrothal was a formal agreement made with solemn covenants of fidelity on each side. The woman continued in her father’s house until she was taken to the home of her husband, usually about a year after betrothal or marriage. The consummation of the union consisted in the receiving of the wife to the home prepared for her by the husband, and was celebrated with a great feast lasting several days–called the Nuptial Feast. At a fixed hour the bridegroom set out for his bride, who was waiting in readiness to receive him and to accompany him to their future home and to the feast which he had provided, followed by her virgin companions with lamps and all the necessary preparations.”
Brother Pete, it’s sad there’s so many people who are unwilling to do the necessary research to awnser their own questions and doubts,unfortunately,many are that way because of fear.
Very well said Bob and I totally agree with you! As C.T. Russell alluded to in one of the volumes….it’s possible for someone to over typify a parable, making something out of it that wasn’t meant to be. As was previously mentioned; the whole point of this parable is to…..KEEP ON THE WATCH…..and be ready at all times!
Ken – Thanks. It is great that we can have differences of opinion to consider and still love each other. Jesus example of how to interpret a parable in Matt 13:36-46 is helpful in teaching us how parables are to be explained. We are all praying for you and wishing you well on your Feb 20 meeting with the elders.
Thanks Brother Pete,I really appreciate you and everyones prayerful thoughts:)! Yes,the nice thing about discussing subjects and looking up info. is that it educates you and teaches you how to search the scriptures better. Also,for me, it’s very refreshing to be able to do it so freely without fear!
Ken – I totally agree with you. If we are really honest and sincere, considering different points of view can aid us in learning how to reason on the Bible and in growing together in a more accurate understanding. We help each other out, but in the end, we don’t all have to agree. For me a very some very important study attitudes are to 1) Let scripture interpret scripture, 2) Expect that the Bible will make sense when we properly understand it, 3) Do not be satisfied until we can see that all scriptures on a topic harmonize, 4) Realize that understanding does not come without study and effort, plus help from Jehovah, 5) Don’t view ourselves as teachers with all the answers. Be willing to consider what other people have to say if they can support their view with the Word of God, and 6) Don’t put so much faith in an organization or denomination that you will accept their interpretation of the Bible without proving for yourself from the scriptures.
Now for some people, this is just too much work. It’s just much easier to beleive what you are told.
Also Ken, you would have been condemned as a JW if you tried to do what you had to do to help your wife and family. Going before these men would have been thought of as an act of treason. But we know Jesus got baptized by one lesser than himself and said “Let it be this time”. He had to fulfil prophecy and also show that baptism was an outside notification that one had come to do the will of the father. Was he a sinner, did he have to do that as the son of the father?No, but he did it. Also he committed himself to unrighteous men to be turned over to the death squad!. He could have called all of heaven down on them all, but sometimes you let it go according to divine providence. I know this is going to humiliate you to go there Wednesday, but take courage you shall conquer the world. In loving concern and caring, Jacqueline. Also if I might add “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”. Give them their prompts where they are correct and all should go well.
PS. I have never been disfellowshipped, but I was in a meeting that I found out later was an apostasy meeting. The one elder’s facial expressions told me to answer as I knew a loyal witness would. Their decision in answer to the society was, No she is not an apostate, we will not disfellowship. Once I found out 10 yrs later that it was an apostasy meeting, I walked out for good. So play the game if the spirit leads you that way.
What a lovely discussion. I just recently read something Brother Russell said, I think in the 2nd volume, but I really am not certain. It said that all students of the bible must be ready to to discuss scriptures and if it is found we are in error willing to accept it and incorporate it into our beliefs. We only incorporated into our beliefs what the WT Society told us to do as JWs. We as Bible Students actually believe and practice 2Co 3:17 – “…where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” And I believe that most of the times we do have the Spirit of the Lord here. Joyful in Christ, your Sister.
Amen Sister Sharon!
Ken, What happened on Monday if I may ask? Is all okay?
I just heard a beautiful story about not letting anyone still your voice when speaking about Jesus. A man was put in prison for Jesus. He had a window but it faced a tall concrete wall. He could see nor hear anything or anyone. Yet every day he would raise his voice and preach and teach about Jesus. He didn’t know it at the time but hundreds of people were gathering everyday on the other side of the wall to hear him teach, and many became believers and heard and believed in Christ. They gave the name of the prisoner from the earlier centuries and it just shows we must always speak. They may be a child or someone that may be listening and get to Jesus. Beautiful lesson in not letting anyone silence you.
Jacqueline, the results of the meeting are written in this “questions” segment.
Ken,thanks for the info on Insight on the Scriptures. A similar but more detailed article regarding this parable can also be found on http://www.biblegateway.com under commentaries of Mat 25. It agrees with what Jacqueline said regarding the torches. I have to admit this parable is perplexing. I don’t know if the 2001 Translation can be purchased as a hard copy or not. The translators are x-JW’s and current JW’s, though they stay anonymous for fear of repraisal from the GB.
Bob, sometimes with the parables I used to read too much into them. I learned to look for the teaching point of Jesus parables. This procession is a little different from real Jewish processions down the street to the house of the grown. Also this is a continuation of Chapter 24. In the original it would not be divided like this. Additionally these particular virgins that are described as bridesmaids are really the ones that will be his Bride. So that is why I don’t try and apply it to a real Jewish wedding procession. I like to think that since it is from chapter 24, it most certainly is in the end of Christian age. There seems to be that some that were invited or apart of the bridal party would fall away or not have or doing all that it took for Jesus to pick them. He said “I do not know you” then he says so keep on the watch. It seems to me to be a lesson in alertness and watchfulness with full armor on as if you were ready to move on a dime. Keeping even your Christian garments on at all times for when he comes he makes the choice. 1Thessalonians
5 chap.
You see Bob, I associate this division within the same time period as 2Thess. 2. This apostasy and the revealing of a man of lawlessness that has actually set himself up as a God (GB) vs4 an object of reverence, in the temple of God (Bethel) vs8, Lawless one will get revealed. Vs 11 says”So that is why God lets an operation of errorgo to them, that theymay get to believing the lie. I also put it in the same last day time frame as Thess. 4:13-17 especially vs 17 ” we the living who are surviving will together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
What I am trying to say is I look at a lot of other scriptures about the presence of the Lord to understand this. Why it has been on my mind I can’t figure and on Ken’s at the same time. Probably no one understands my linkings but just maybe you can.
Jacqueline, I still don’t see how those virgins can be the same as the bride.
Ken, when you say that you “don’t see how those virgins can be the same as the bride,” are you talking about the bride who is never mentioned in the parable or the bride of Christ (the members of Christ’s body). Since “virgins” are applied to the Anointed elsewhere (Rev 14:4; 2 Cor 11:2), can we let scripture interpret scripture here? Who do you think the “wise virgins” are?
This to me is a teaching parable about waiting and being alert. These I feel will be the Bride in the real time. I agree with Br. Peter that elsewhere that is the way the Bride of Christ is described. The Bride isn’t mentioned here I feel because it is about the distant return of the groom that is the object lesson.
WOW! I just saw you comment about your meeting with the elders. I will pray for you and keep kool. Don’t let them rattle you. It is just a mind game. They do it all the time.
Thanks Jacqueline.Btw, my meeting is on Monday Feb. 20th:)
Jacqueline, you’re right, I am not advocating that version of the Bible. However the author makes some good points. He points to psalm 45 and Rev 19, which also have to do with wedding feasts, though I don’t know it ties in. The fact that the bride is not mentioned may be due that it went without saying that the groom would be accompanied by his bride when he came. I don’t know what the marriage traditions were at that time. I’ve tried to do some research regarding that, but haven’t gotten very far. The people listening to Jesus would have had to relate to what he was saying. Even if they didn’t understand the meaning of the parable, there is no way anyone would have thought that the groom was coming to marry 10 virgins. So I think the bride had to be implied somehow. It’s confusing to me, but I’m glad Ken brought up the subject maybe someone will shed some light on it all.
Yes, I think the customs would have to be understood but this is unusual. They were not let in because of being late etc. It seems he was teaching them a lesson. But as you say maybe others have something to say. I will now view the Grand Plan’ explanation along with what Br. Peter has said, which by the way makes sense to me. I am trying to understand the bible first by reasoning on the scripture without checking out other thoughts first. I am deprograming now so I can infuse other thoughts. Check you later.
Jacqueline, I know what you mean when you say “deprogramming” it’s taken me almost 2 yrs to do that, now I’m at the point that, whatever I hear, has to go through my built in “sample tester” to see if it makes sense according to the Bible and commom sense.
If you have the “insight on the scriptures” book,published by the WBTS, look up the word “illistrations” it’ll give you an idea on how jewish weddings were celebrated back in that time period.After you read it,the illustration makes a LOT more sense!
Ken & Jacqueline , here’s a site that may give a different perspective to the parable of the 10 virgins.
http://www.2001translation.com go to Mat 25 and follow the links.
Bob, I really think this is a true parable who’s object lesson is about staying on the watch. Be waiting although it seems it is taking a long time. It requires faith and a strong belief that his word is truth. There are other parables that are unseparable from this one.
I believe the translator took liberty by inserting in the text that they went out to meet the Groom and His Bride. That leaves no room for the virgins to be the Bride. The text does not mention Bride, I don’t believe. It is a parable and not like a real wedding reception where the bride is with her ladies. The men of the grooms would lead in a real ceremony. So without the Bride we leave room for a different interpretation of this parable. Thanks for the link, I know you are not pushing the 2001 edition of the Bible, you were just giving us a link.
Excellent Bible translation Bob, kinda reminds of why the Jw’s translated their own version,Btw, can this Bible be purchased as a hard copy book?