Beyond the Watchtower
Looking to our Past for lessons to help inform our Future
Our new logo of the original Watchtower cross and crown supports our subtitle “Looking to our Past – For lessons about our Future. Find more out the Watchtower history of the cross and crown by clicking here:
WHY THE NAME CHANGE FROM “FRIENDS OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES” TO “BEYOND THE WATCHTOWER?” New redirected website address is — BeyondWatchtower.com.
First an introduction: We are Bible Students who since the early Watchtower days have continued to meet together in congregations around the world. We retain, continue to study, and offer to others, the original Watchtower writings and literature, which we enjoy as wonderful resources to help understand and harmonize the Bible’s teachings. Some of us created the “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses” website in an attempt to reach out in the spirit of Christian love and friendship, both to struggling Jehovah’s Witnesses and to Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Why are we reaching out?
A. We hope to provide a safe haven website of help, support, encouragement, open conversation and as well an information center.
B. We hope to provide for your consideration, the enduring, valued, spiritual light of truth that shone forth so brightly in the early days of the Watchtower ministry. In the spirit of Christian love and liberty, we extend to you this invitation to study, not with an autocratic ORGANIZATION controlled by a “Governing Body,” but rather with fellow Christian students of the Bible in the spirit of the Berean’s (Acts 17:11).
C. We hope to share with you areas of our common roots and the true history and the original mission of the early Watchtower Society. In its early days, it operated as a publishing house. It had absolutely NO authority over any of the hundreds of independent congregations which were controlled solely by the congregation members themselves; not by domineering elders, overbearing overseers or a dictatorial Governing Body. In those days each elder could only remain in office if at the annual elections they received 75% of the vote from the Holy Spirit anointed congregation members voting based on the Biblical qualifications for elder (1 Tim 3 and Titus 1).
So why the name change to “Beyond the Watchtower.”
Some visitors to our site have had the mistaken impression that by calling ourselves “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses” that this meant we were in agreement with the new doctrines and the oppressive and controlling spirit of the organization itself and its governing structure as well as its historical practice of shunning questioning members, and the resultant dividing of families. Dear brothers and sisters, nothing could be further from our true heart’s desire. These types of practices were never to be found among the original Watchtower friends prior to 1917.
Our new name “Beyond the Watchtower” contains a dual meaning which helps clarify our mission:
1: To help, support and encourage present JWs looking BEYOND todays Watchtower or else former JWs AFTER leaving the JW Organization. We would like to provide the type of support as shared in A & B above, to help those presently questioning or struggling with their relationship in the J.W. Organization and who may even have endured and suffered from spiritual and emotional wounds.
2: As described in C above, to provide an accurate historical account of events that took place BEYOND or AFTER the early Watchtower” days when a new organization emerged under new leadership, dramatically changing its beliefs and practices.
In these early Watchtower days, many of the original Bible Students refused to accept the new and changed teachings. Nor would they be controlled by and surrender their Christian liberty to this new and very tough leader, Joseph Rutherford. These Bible Students broke away from the new and emerging JW organization and either maintained or reestablished Bible Student congregation’s worldwide. By 1931, 75% of the Original Bible Students had left this new organization which in that year adopted the name “Jehovah’s Witnesses” in order to draw a clear line of distinction from those who had left the Society and those who remained.
The Bible Students as a Christian fellowship still meet together to the present day as free and independent congregations retaining their original beliefs and practicing the same spirit of Christian liberty as was adhered to during the early Watchtower days up through October of 1916 when Brother Russell died.
With these true, loving and encouraging wishes for you, we hope that this website aids you, our visiting brothers and sisters, to find satisfying answers to questions you may have. We hope this site can be an educational, healing center, a safe harbor for achieving a healthy emotional state, a place for spiritual growth in a manner that faithfully follows the scriptures and a place where all of our combined efforts will be found pleasing and honoring to the name of Jehovah, our loving and merciful Heavenly Father.
We hope that a journey with you to the not so distant past will bring you fresh hopes of Jehovah’s kindness and mercy to us today as well as for the bright and wonderful tomorrow that He has promised for all mankind through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
We continue now with our original WELCOME message below.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. – NWT
WELCOME TO THIS CITY OF REFUGE
AND SANCTUARY FOR STUDIOUS AND INQUIRING MINDS.
Acts 17:10, 11: Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be-roe’a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes-sa-lo-ni’ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. – NWT
You are anonymous here. You can speak to other Jehovah’s Witnesses, former Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bible Students and other Christians. When posting your comments, you will be able to use a Pen Name. Your e-mail address and website info are completely optional. No one can identify you. No one can report you. You have a home and quiet place to pray and honestly investigate scriptures. It is not our purpose to indoctrinate you, but merely to provide you with resources for further study of Jehovah’s word. You are not alone. You have friends.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. – NWT
2 Tim 1:7 (Amplified Bible) – For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but He has given us a spirit of power and of love and of calm {and} well–balanced mind {and} discipline {and} self–control.
Gal 5:1 – Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. NKJV
Gal 5:13 – For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. NKJV
2Co 3:17 – …where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. NWT
John 8:31, 32 – And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free. NWT
If 1 John 4:8 says “God is love,” then shouldn’t love, not fear, be our motivation to serve Jehovah? Are you serving Jehovah in a certain way because you are afraid/fearful of being destroyed in Armageddon?
Hebrews 13:6 (Amplified Bible) – So we take comfort and are encouraged and confidently and boldly say, The Lord is my Helper; I will not be seized with alarm [I will not fear or dread or be terrified]. What can man do to me?
To Brettstone
The Book, The New Creation on page 721 footnote reads, “We have already drawn attention to the fact that the clause “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished,” is without any support from ancient MSS. of earlier date than the fifth century; nevertheless it is in full accord with what we are here presenting, for the term “lived not” should be understood to refer not to awakening but to full restitution to life in the perfect degree. See footnote Vol, I., p.288.”
The last part of Vol. I,s footnote reads, “although the above words are no part o the inspired record, it would be strictly true to say that the rest of the dead will not live again(will not regain the fullness of life lost) until the thousand years of restitution and blessing are complete.”
So in essence, a very misunderstood verse during the falling away-dark ages is not there, and then appears, and it happens to be all truth.
Personally I believe it was there, but when the falling away that Paul said was coming and they wanted people converted that verse caused everyone to heaven a real problem so they removed it. Somewhere and honest scribe put it back in where it belonged.
The works by George William Horner on the Coptic Version of the New Testament The Southern Dialect reads with it in. Why consider that? Some feel evidence points to it possibly being copied in about. p398,”With the accession of Demetrius in A.D.188 the real history of the Egyptian Church may be said to begin. During his long patriarchate he appointed four bishops, and his successor Hersclas as many as twenty, which indicates a rapid progress of the Church. Clement of Alexandria, born about A.D.150, speaks of the Christian spreading over all the land, and while Origen in his discussion with Celus admits that the number of Christians was small in the early part of the third century, yet there were enough to persecute under the rule of Decius in A.D.250.”
“supposing that need of a vernacular Version arose as early as the time of Demetrius.”
“Where history fails us, the internal character of the Sahidic supplies confirmation of a date earlier than the third century. Being fundamentally of the older Alexandrian type, yet bearing signs of mixture from one or more sources, we can imagine the Version as of a form of text which, diverging from the main stream, retained variations belonging to the earliest times, such as are known by the name Western readings, These it preserved, and adopted afterwards some of the readings which are usually regarded as due to a later Syrian revision.”
“This theory does not preclude the translation of the Greek having taken place as late as the third century, but the traces of early mixture shown by the definite tinge of Western influence can hardly be explained except by reference to a date as early as possible. If Christianity did not exist at all in Upper Egypt before A.D.150, then we must come down to the date od Demetrius as the earliest possible date of the Version; but if, as is more likely, the Christian religion had spread by means of the Nile immediately after it began to be preached in Alexandria, and had already become infected by heretical and semi-pagan superstitions in the second century, we may provisionally conclude from the character of the Sahidic Versions that it was made at that time.”
Hank
Hi Peter;
The Book, The Divine Plan of the Ages on page 192 reads, “The inward purity and mental and moral perfection will stamp and glorify every radiant countenance. Such will earth’s society be; and weeping bereaved ones will have their tears all wiped away, when thus they realize the resurrection work complete.-Rev. 21:4
Hank
Hank – Thanks. That is a beautiful and uplifting quote!
To Victor Field
If this helps. Revelation was written 26 years after the tribulation at Jerusalem in 70 C.E. It shows all the saints still dead asking a question. How long before you avenge the blood of us? Now we know dead do not talk, but this was given in a vision.
What were they told to do? “and they were told to rest a little while longer, until was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.” 6:11
Hi Hank,
thank-you for your comment.
It has made me scrutinize the scripture again
I still think it is latter day,now …”them being told to rest a little while” In when this was said to them.
But what was interesting in looking at the Greek interpretation, I picked up on something else I did not notice, before.
It says “Fellow servants of them”
“And Brothers of them”
And now looking at your comment you have written it
Fellow servants first, before mentioning the Brothers, who would also die
It also says …About…to be killed, adding to my own understanding within the next 3.5years approx to them being given a robe.
This opens my understanding up, some, and after reading material on this site and the comments, I realise we don’t have the same understanding on certain doctrine, but I know we are both aware that is soon to change.
Sorry I did not introduce myself when first commenting on this site, I was reared from 4-5 yrs old as a witness up until my mid thirties, I am now 50, I live in Cornwall England UK
To Brettstone
In regards to Revelation chapter 19, This is in heaven and what had arrived? Verse 7, “because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. What some confuse are the words in verse 6, “voice of a great crowd.”
Acts 6:7,”great crowd of priests.”
John 6:2, a great crowd kept following him.”
Mark 4:1, “a great crowd gathered near him.”
And there are more, so its important to see the words great crowd are not always to be a certain thing.
In speaking of the great crowd at Rev 7:9 note, “palm branches in their hands.” “hands.” Note the heavenly conversation that takes place, “In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?
How does John answer the question? “So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” Because at the time John was receiving this vision there was no great crowd and that is why John was clueless. Then what was John told? “And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
And what will this God spread over them? “the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” Consider Ps 15:1, “O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent? Who may reside in your holy mountain?
Also consider Rev 21:2,3, “I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind.”
Note there is a husband and bride and mankind with God’s tent.
Now as to your question on who does the work at ARMAGEDDON, PLEASE READ 19:14!!! JESUS AND THE ARMY OF THE HEAVENS!!! They were on white horses in that verse. In Revelation 9:16,17, “The number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads; I heard the number of them. And this is how I saw the horses in vision and those seated on them.”
This is way more than 144,000 so I fell Rev 19:14 has Jesus with the armies of heaven, his bride not mentioned and a bride surely wouldn’t go to war.
Hank
To Brettstone;
Mt. 24:31, “and will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound.”
Note how Mark puts it at Mark 13:27, “And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.”
No trumpet mentioned. But removing them from earth to heaven is what is noted.
1 Cor. 15:52, “during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound.”
1 Thess. 4:14-17, “For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”
You seem to have a question as to when during Christ’s presence. Maybe this will help. Rev 7:1-4, “four angels, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree…loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000.”
We know Jesus presence started in about Oct. 1, 1914. But how can we show that those protected from what was coming would live during it? Rev 9:4 reads, “They were told not to harm the vegetation of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” Matching Rev 7:3, “we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
Note 9:11, “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss.” Rev. 9:1, “And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given him.” Note how that started, “The fifth angel blew his trumpet.”
As to the 144,000 being resurrected to heaven to make up the complete bride class. After number 144,000 is raised, that message will never be made again for the bride class. After the last one is raised that that commanders voice an order to the angels to do that will never be made again.
Now when Rev. 7:9-17 starts, it is a new paragraph and is talking about different ones, for it is a unnumbered group. The members of the bride class that were living and went up in the twinkling of an eye, went to heaven. Those who come through the great tribulation after their brothers have left the earth, are never shown to have died or have gone to heaven.
At Rev 7:9 the words great crowd help to not confuse one with the numbered bride class. It shows them as humans by saying, “a great crowd which no man was able to number.” There is no way a human man standing down here on earth could look at the heavens and try to count spirit beings. Impossible!!!
People confuse Rev 19, note its start, “loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” “in heaven.” Daniel talks about myriads and myriads of angels in heaven. Dan 7:10
And notice this is happening after Babylon the Great is no more. “For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute.” “has avenged the blood of his slaves.” These were the 144,000, who are now in heaven with the angels. They said Praise Jah!
Paragraph new for verse 4, Speaking of the 24 elders and the four living creatures, “fell down and worshipped God…Praise Jah!”
New paragraph for 5,”voice came from throne.” Reject verse four, “God who sits on the throne.” Who else sat on God’s throne? “just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev 3:21 That was Jesus.
What words come from the throne? “Be praising our God, all you his slaves, who fear him, the small ones and great.”
Notice verse 6, “And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king!
Note “a voice of a great crowd.” One voice there, in heaven.
“sound of many waters.” waters is plural, not sound of a water.
“like the sound of heavy thunders.” thunders plural, not a thunder.
And all three are referred to as “they”
Who did Jehovah send to save the great crowd of humans? One, singular, Jesus.
What could the sound of 144,000 be? “sound of many waters. And the “sound of thunders.”, the heavenly angels.
All up in heaven.
Hank- nice response… And i am in agreement with the great crowd conclusion but im talking about the timing of the first resurection.. When it began and who is involved? Have you read my previous questions to Peter? I discussed the fact that the scriptures do not give the idea of another secondary class to be resurrected but that there are only 2 resurrections first the bride class who are given immortality and become sharers in Christ divine nature numbering only 144,000. Then the general resurrection (John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15 and Dan 12:2.
My point about the timing of the first resurrection was that the three trumpet blast recorded inregards to the first resurrection are one in the same..
Hank- Are you saying that the bride class is already in heaven and saves the great crowd out of the Great tribulation?
Matt 24:29-31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
Thank you Rus
Hank
To Peter;
Saw Rus Virgil’s comment that there was no more reslight site. If My memory serves me right I believe His name was Ron Day. And I am again going off memory, and believe his health was not the best for some time, and that he was a old time Bible Student.
I could be wrong on every thing. If anyone here’s
please post either way.
Hank
Hello Hank !
Bro. Ronald is OK
you may find him here
https://www.facebook.com/reslight?fref=ts
He closed several forums in last several years (this is what I said)
rus v.
Rus – Thanks for clarifying.
Peter- greetings again! I have been reading on this site and have another set of questions with regards to the Great Crowd or Great Company” I certainly admire your scriptural knowledge and responses but have manny questions?
It is my understanding that the BS believe that this great crowd/company is a secondary heavenly class! This leads me to a couple questions.
1. What service do they render if they are not Kings and Priests? What scriptures do you as Bible students consider to address the activities they carry out in heaven. In other words what work will they preform based on the scriptures?
2. The scriptures only appear to speak of two resurrections 1) the 1st resurrection or earlier resurrection as Paul called it? Phil 3:11. 2) The general resurrection referred to at John 5:28,29 Acts 24:15.
Consider the 1st resurrection:
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they (those having part in 1st Res) will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
So it states those having part in “first” resurrection will be kings and priests. Certainly this first resurrection is reserved only for those who would rule with Christ as King Priests. I do believe that Paul was speaking about this hope when saying he wanted to attain to the earlier resurrection.
1Th 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise “FIRST”.
Is this statement of those who would rise “first” not the same as the resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:6
And if the Great Crowd is not of the first resurrection but is of the General Resurrection how are they present in heaven for the marriage of the Lamb? Are we to believe they are complete as a body and present before the marriage of the Lamb
Another question.
3. If the Great Crowd is Heavenly not earthly, then does that mean that this age/system or world as we know it will end and not a single faithful worshiper of Jehovah will survive into that earthly Kingdom, but only those unfaithful even wicked will survive?
I understand the question raised with regards to them being in the Temple! But I do see scriptures that indicate the Great Crowd could be earthly!
Phraseology of Rev chapter 7 matches prophecy of the earthly promises.
Re 7:16, 17 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.
(Notice he will wipe away tears from all faces? This takes place on earth!)
Compare to Re 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
Brettstone,
Yes, there will be a point in time when all the anointed will be gone from the earth, including the Great Crowd. However, just because Jehovah ceases to beget any more people to a heavenly calling does not mean that there are no longer faithful followers of Jehovah on earth who will continue to live on into the kingdom on earth.
As a Jehovah’s Witness, perhaps you have met many who you believe deeply love Jehovah yet have no hope to be in heaven as a part of the Bride of Christ. Yes, many of these might live on into the kingdom and be among the first to join in the kingdom arrangement and serve Jehovah in advancing the great work of bringing mankind into this new government and society.
You are making a good point that promises to the Great Crowd are similar to promises that we find for mankind in the coming earthly kingdom. However, these are the same promises made to the anointed (spirit begotten) Church Class (the heavenly 144,000). These promises are for all who ultimately embrace Jesus as their Savior and follow him.
Fountains of water – Church Jn 4:14; Psa 23:2; 36:9 – Great Crowd Rev 7:16; 21:6
Sun not strike them – Church Psa 121:6 – Great Crowd Rev 7:16
Lamb is their Shepherd – Church Psa 23:1; Heb 13:20 – Great Crowd Rev 7:17
Shall not hunger or thirst – Church Jn 6:35, 51; 1 Cor 11:26 – Great Crowd Rev 7:16
Cleansed by Jesus blood – Church 1 John 1:7 – Great Crowd Rev 7:14
Wipe away tears & comfort – Church Matt 5:4, comp Is 25:8 with 1 Cor 15:54 – Great Crowd Rev 21:4
In many scriptures, a promise is made to one class, but extended to another group as well. For example, the Church is promised that they may partake of the tree of life (Rev 2:7) and so is the mankind (Rev 22:14). The church is promised manna (Rev 2:17) and so is mankind (John 6:48-51). The church shall see God (Matt 5:8) and the angels do always behold God’s face (Matt 18:10)
Peter- As one a JW I have been taught the Anointed will rule from heaven as spirit creatures invisible to the eyes of mortal men. So I ask do you as Bible Students believe this also? Will the bride class rule invisibly from heaven during the mellinium or will they rule invisibly from earth? Or perhapse is it the great crowd in your belief that will administer here on earth? This is a question I have always wondered about! Jesus took on a body of Flesh and Bone to manifest himself to disciples after his resurection. Angels in past have done same thing… For instance with Abram or even with Lot. How about Jesus appearing to Saul on the road. What are your thoughts?
Brettstone,
I have wondered about the details of the very same questions you are asking. Let me tell you in my opinion on what I think we know.
Jesus and His glorified body members have invisible, immortal, divine bodies. See this link for more.
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/11/11/does-jesus-have-a-body-of-flesh-3/
Revelation 21:2-3 (NASV) “2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,”
The New Jerusalem is Jehovah and Christ (vs. 22) head and body (including the bride). Notice how verse 3 says of God that “He will dwell among them.” Now do we really believe that God who is the most powerful invisible Spirit will literally dwell among men? Of course not. In Exodus 33:20, Jehovah said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
I really do not know exactly how the invisible spirit divine beings known as the 144,000 will interact with mankind. I believe that the Great Crowd will support this effort, just as the tribe of Levi supported the priesthood.
Will members of the 144,000 materialize and be seen by people on earth?
After the 40 days when Jesus ascended to heaven, the only one to even get a glimpse of Jesus was the Apostle Paul and this blinded him. Similarly, perhaps the brightness of the glorified Bride of Christ will be too much for any human man to see.
Yet since Jesus was able to appear to the disciples during the 40 days after His death, is there some way in which the 144,000 will do the same? I do not know. Even Jehovah appeared to Moses through the Angel of the Lord. So will the glorified bride of Christ communicate through the Great Crowd? I think so. Will the 144,000 actually appear to people like angels appeared to Abraham. I think that the glorified divine beings probably cannot materialize to appear to people, however, perhaps they can communicate through visions (as when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and three disciples in vision). Or maybe they can create a body that they can operate like a puppet and communicate through. All this is guess work. I really don’t find clear statements in scripture. However, does it really matter? We’ll find out how the communication process works once the kingdom is set up. In the meantime, I don’t mind having fun speculating about it.
I like your reply here! And I enjoy speculating also.. Funny but my thoughts are very similar to yours.. Thanx for giving consideration and speculation to my question. 🙂
Brettstone – The real fun speculation starts when we consider whether we can get more insight into heaven and spirit beings by understanding Quantum Physics! LOL.
Peter- the wording appears to be very direct with regards to the group resurrected in Rev 20:6 when it states
“Happy and Holy is anyone having part in the first Resurrection… They will be Kings and Priests”
It does not appear there is any room for a resurrection of another group that would not share in this capacity, that first resurrection.
Jesus did promise that those who died a death like his woul receive a resurrection like his and I would assume that would make them not only of divine nature but also kingly priests.
I am keeping open mind but to me there are only two resurrection that I can see the one spoken of those Joint heirs and then the remainder of mankind both just and unjust?
Peter- it is my understanding that only the Bride (144,000) will poses immortality?
If this is true then the Great Crowd cannot be a part of the resurection mentioned at 1Cor 15:50-53 because verse 53 states they will put on immortality. And only those who share in Christ divine nature can put on immortality correct? 2Peter 1:4
Brettstone – Again, I agree with you. The Great Crowd will live forever, however, only God, Jesus and His Bride have immortality.
Hi Brett ,
Your questions are sincere and and they have answers.
You already have observed that many scriptures refer to those living on earth , where the Kingdom has to come.
When Jesus said “your (Father’s) word is truth” He understood also the original purpose of creation of man on earth : to live on earth … unchangeable for humankind. The fact that later God has decided that a little number of Jesus followers will inherit the Kingdom of Heavens in Heaven with Jesus was something added to the original purpose which did NOT changed/replaced the original purpose of God.
Obedience to the King is also required from all who will be received into the earthly Kingdom .
Brettstone
Sorry to but in,..If you remember the Questions from readers….”EW”..”In the event of a nuclear war,what about the great crowd”
I was commenting under the name anonymous, remember when everyone got pretty nasty towards what I was saying about who the “Great crowd” where!!
Anyway the last time we exchanged comments, I was pointing you on that site to look at Everlasting/Eternal and the correct interpretation, of which word has rightful place in the scriptures to keep the message in its proper context, as it has been cleverly manipulated, in deceiving us.
Hope you understand what I am trying to say, as my grammar is something to be desired!!!
Look at these,,….Scriptures,I don’t want to pass my opinion on their meanings by just giving you the answers, so as I said to you previously, you do the study, rely on The spirit.
Rev 7:9 Great “multitude” look this word up, its meaning broadens out the position of who these ones are to the standing they have taken in their attachment to those around them (isolation)
Rev 14:13 Blessed are the dead, .. Why are they blessed? Look closely, they are alive, but they remain on the earth.
Rev 9:6 They seek death, cannot find it,long for it,and death eludes them.+ Rev 20:14 These two scriptures give clear indication when Death/Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Not the time we were taught as JW’s
Victor.. Its good to talk to ya.. I didnt realize was you till this comment..lol
Ya know i have been looking at the subject of everlasting and Eternal… So manny translations interchange them.. But i also have not found explanation in any WT articles though manny bro & sisters give definitions..
What have you found?
Brettstone
To expand on my first message in what i said about Eternal, all scripture containing Eternal, seems to point to the 144000/chosen, 1st resurrection, also the illustration of the sheep and goats, refers to these also,.Mat 25,…. and the harvest (conclusion) in Mat 13 of these ones and the ones bundled up for burning being those not in the book, the ones who take the mark, on the forehead and hand.
The interesting thing i found about sheep and goats parable is that it occurs after christ sit doown upon his glorious throne!! Read Matt 19:28 for timing. And the fact that in the parable it is said those goats would end up in the place prepared for the Devil and his Angels, which is lake of fire at thr end of the 1,000 yrs.
Brettstone
Yes, I agree with what you say on Mat 19:28.
You place the lake of fire at the end of the 1000yrs,I believe it to happen before the 100yrs starts.
Rev 20:10 shows the beast and false prophet to be there already.Look at the timing again,The beast(7 headed)and (False Prophet)and when they get the lake of fire. Rev19:20
Why would the grave/Hades have to be kept around until the end of the 1000yrs? There are no instances in scripture to show any one going into the grave after armageddon.
Rev 20 shows that the sea gave up their dead, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them,(Ask yourself the question does this include everyone?)”Gave up” surrendered some of them, these ones were judged according to what they had done, and what was written/recorded about each one of them, and allowed to exist, even though figuratively dead to Jehovah.Those that did not make a positive stand to what they had done and what was recorded Rev 21:8 timing again.
It seems there are three categories who get judged, the sea, those in the grave and also those who take the mark, this is where the dead are blessed for making the right decision Rev14:13 for not taking the mark and are killed Rev 13:15 confirms this.
Those that seek death, cannot find it, long for it, and death eludes them,these ones have been bundled ready for the fire (lake of fire)they would value the grave at this time over that of the lake of fire, they obviously become aware of their situation.
Brettstone
I meant 1000yrs above
Rev 21 is before the marriage of the lamb taking place, so all scriptures containing such blessings as in vrs 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
So these blessings are at the start of the 1000 yrs starting (No death)
Victor- read the entire Chapter of Zechariah 14… Notice this book was written after Babylon captured and destroyed Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:16-18 indicates even enemies of Jehovah and his people will survive Armegedon. Infact there are manny scriptures that support this. Russell taught Armegedon was take Down of religious and social order to install his kingdom. Second death comes at end of thousand yrs otherwise it violates the Ransom. Every human that ever lived will be brought back yes even Adam, the flood people destroyed, sodom and Gamorrah and yes those destroyed at Armegedon.. I will expound on this from what I have discovered.
Zechariah 14:1 “Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. 2 I will gather all the nationsagainst Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city.
(Notice below those who came up against Jerusalem)
Zechariah 14:16 “Everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that come against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths. 17 But if anyone among the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, no rain will fall on them. 18 And if the family of Egypt does not come up and does not come in, they will have no rain. Instead, they will have the scourge with which Jehovah scourges the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment for the sin of Egypt and the sin of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
Watchtower briefly comments saying that these who come up against Jerusalem cannot be survivors of Armegedon so it must be resurrected ones! But no mistake made here. They are those that come up against Jerusalem in time of the end. Wether you believe this is literal Jerusalem of the anointed!
Victor- read Ezekiel 38 and 39 in its entirety and see the end of 39 indicates Jehovah brings his wrath against Isreal as well as the nations to demonstrate his power among so they May know that he is Jehovah, but indicates both survive Armegedon.
How else would he free Creation from enslavement to sin and death? All creation (Rom 8)
Victor consider some of the articles on this site under “Ransom for All” it at one time was the foundation of our organizations teachings until 1930’s. It’s hard to say when they left this teaching but it is clear from scriptures that it’s inline with Jehovah’s justice..
Brettstone – I agree with you that the First Resurrection does NOT include the Great Crowd. However, I do not believe that would therefore mean that the First Resurrection is the only resurrection to heaven.
Peter-
To me everything has to make perfect sense, so I ask these questions sincerely and I hope you are not offended! I enjoy your comments and deep understanding of truth. I have for sometime believed that Bible Students as well are brothers too and will help make up the bride class. I have for a long time believed the Ransom covers all men, even those killed at Armegedon. I also have believed from early in my years as a JW that there would be survivors on earth other than those with a good standing before God at Armegedon.
But here is my question to your response. In Rev 20:4-6
You said there is possibility there is another resurrection to heaven other than the 1st resurrection.
4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.
(1st resurrection clearly limited to Bride class. I believe key statement made here for understanding of following verse is that “They came to life” in that they received there reward everlasting life or Eternal life actual sharers in Christ!s divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 or immortality 1 Cor 15:53)
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
(Here it states rest of the dead did not “come to life” until end of thousand years. So not until 1,000 years end and they pass final season of testing will they “come to life” or gain there reward of life. Confusing for Christendom but not for us JW, and BS which we believe the same here)
6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
(Here it confirms second death has no authority over those of 1st resurrection. But these scriptures seem to only make room for 2 resurrections that take place, 1st resurrection and the earthly resurrection during the millennium. I have spent several hours reviewing each statement about the resurrection and have not found room for any belief there is another heavenly resurrection! So am I left with choice! Do I make the scripture fit the belief that because a certain word “Temple” is used that it cannot be understood in another sense. Or that it has to be the same group as another because of wording? You made a strong argument when I asked about blessings mentioned that appeared to describe great crowd and how these also are promises that match those promised to bride class. But I believe the numbers have too match the theory and not the theory match the numbers.
Peter I have always believed that the great crowd is in that temple in a spiritual sense, and believe that possibly they would even for most part serve in an earthly Temple constructed here on earth possibly Jerrusalem???? Or at least represented there.)
I am left with these questions!
Would Jehovah and Christ destroy this old order and not have people he views with a clean standing left over to take the lead in a new earthly society? I realize that BS view JW’s as a part of Christendom so they certainly in your view not have a righteous or good standing before God and Christ, there is no way to sugar coat it.
If the Great Company/crowd is heavenly there is a vague description of them and there work. Hard to imagine that 144,000 cannot complete the work needed to be preformed!
No mention of there resurrection in fact not even a description of what sort of bodies they would poses!
At 1cor 15 it states with regards to the heavenly resurrection there are earthly bodies and heavenly bodies earthly of one sort heavenly of another! Those described of the heavenly are said to be immortal yet the BS say only bride class possesses immortality so it appears to me that the great crowd not being immortal is assumption and them possessing another sort of heavenly body is assumption.
Peter this creates dilemma for me! I realize that the Watchtower org has manny inaccurate beliefs but I think also BS and here is why 1 Cor 13:9,10
9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with.
I believe that when Christ arrives! Not at the beginning of his parousia but what is described at Matt 24:29-31 theses partial understandings will be made complete. When that time comes it will be a refining for everyone
Luke 12:47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
Brettstone, if I may jump in one moment to comment on your first sentence about asking so many questions. Let the spirit guide you. There are x elders and others that have the same questions and they are following closely the answer. I have had quite a few conversations bouncing off what they are reading in the dialogue. Checking the stats indicates there are more sincere brothers with these same or similar questions. Jacqueline.
Jacqueline- You may jump in anytime sister…lol
Brettstone
A few more points for you to consider,
Rev 20:4 Two sets of people spoken of, 1st century anointed/chosen (killed with the axe, for the WITNESS work they had) & latter day anointed/chosen, (those who did not take the mark of the Beast Rev 13).
To support this scripture above Rev 6:9 Opening of the 5th seal,describes the 1st century anointed who have been resurrected to heaven (the witness they bore to Jesus)
vrs 11 is of some importance,they are given white robes, and told to Rest, until the NUMBER of their fellow servants, their brothers , were KILLED just as they had been.( Both sets were given white robes) This means the present day chosen, who are alive walking the earth receive robes.(To come, near future)
These two distinct sets of people are the
anointed/Remnant/Chosen/144,000 the ones that rule with Christ for a 1000yrs, these are the ones who are privileged to be part of the (First resurrection Rev 20:5) So even though they are taken to heaven with a gap of a few years between the two lots, this is classed as the 1st resurrection
1 Cor 15:23 shows the order/timing..Christ, the firstfruits; then, WHEN HE COMES, those who belong to him. Showing the 1st century anointed were resurrected prior to his coming (During the G/Tribulation) shown in Dan 12:1…
While Jesus has the title of MICHAEL, and stands during the Great Tribulation, and the vrs 2 firstfruits are resurrected first, the latter (Chosen) are still becoming brighter!(Knowledge of Truth) But the great crowd/multitude arrive on the scene from the Tribulation Rev 7, before the start of the 3.5 yrs kicking off.
Mat 24:31 On his coming the remainder of the chosen are gathered, this would be after their assignment Rev 11.Of prophesying.
Babylon has to go down 1st, before they receive the white robes,the marriage supper, and this will initiate the timings of the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days/3.5 yrs and the rival False Prophet to rule 42 months/3.5 yrs enforcing ones to take the mark, surely interesting times to come shortly.
Rev 19
Confirms,the wild beast and the false prophet are caught and thrown into the lake of fire, showing the lake of fire has been used straight away,and before the completion of the 1000yrs, that some believe.
Brettstone
I am just researching psalms 45:14 and In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions FOLLOW HER– those brought to be with her.
This is close to the Hebrew translation, and makes no mention of bridesmaids/maids of honour, as though those that follow, are themselves not the bride, but an associate group.
Going back to Rev 6:11 the chosen, who have been resurrected to heaven during the G/Tribulation are told to rest for a little time, until the number would be fullfilled of their brothers.Who are described as the Great crowd/Multitude in Rev 7…So they would follow, those firstfruits who were already in heaven waiting for them to complete the amount/number of 144000 then being in heaven, at its completion.
Rev 14:4..These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as FIRSTFRUITS to God and the Lamb.
After reading the above and seeing firstfruits I realised I had to make a correction
The Greek translation of 1 Cor 15:23..is Each however in the own order the FIRSTFRUIT CHRIST, then those of Christ at the coming of him.
All classed as firstfruits,all brothers, which adds that there is no second class or group (bridesmaids) or a great crowd of righteous people that remain on the earth dressed in figurative white robes, or a second class of priests that there is no mention of either, just a clear distortion again of scripture.
Victor only problem with that is this… Matt 24:31 speaks of the Trumpet blast to gather the anointed.. It is an assumption that these are just those who are alive and left over, and here is why!
1Cor 15:51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption,and this which is mortal must put on immortality.
Notice it is called the “LAST” trumpet! If it is the LAST trumpet does that not mean none would follow it?
This trumpet blast is only mentioned in three area’s!
1Thes 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’svoice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
Clearl the same trumpet as mentioned at 1Cor 15:52, and notice Resurrection begins after the trumpet blast occurs beginning with those who die in union with Christ first then or next those remaining! Obviously those who pass in death during Christ presence up until last sealed individual…
But notice both 1Thes and 1Cor says it begins during Christ presence, but no exact timing. As to wether it is at beginning of his presence or towards the end of that presence! But here is where Matthew 24:31 plays a major roll in the timing.
Bible Students believe it began sometime after 1874 while JW’s believe after 1914….
But if the resurection begins after the LAST TRUMPET BLAST (1Cor 15:52) then the one mentioned at Matt 24:31 would have to be the same trumpet blast, because there could not be another following the last one otherwise it would not be the “LAST TRUMPET”.
So Matt 24:29-31 indicates it is after the tribulation that the trumpet blast occurs and it is obviously still during Christ presence but not before tribulation starts.
When you read 1 Cor 15:51, 52 notice that both parts of the resurrection occurs after the trumpet blast. So if it is literally the last trumpet Matthew sets the stage for the timing of this blast. Now of course we do not know the timing between the beginning of it and when it ends… Days weeks months???
There are only three times this trumpet blast is mention and that’s 1cor, 1thes and Matt 24. Is it not literal or is the word “Last” not literally the last?? I would challenge any to attempt to prove otherwise. This has been something I have studied now for a couple years..
Now since this Trumpet blast mentioned at 1Cor 15 covers the furstfruits then there realy cannot be a claim for another gathering of a secondary class. And those discussed in 1Cor are to gain immortality, the same glorified bodies and be in the likeness of Christ.
Victor- when i read the first couple of verses of Daniel chpt 12 i do not see the time sequence i believe that you do! To me it says of those resurrected it occurs after the great tribulation?? Do you believe that those resurrected to reproach will be raised as well at that time because this reads to me that it occurs after tribulation…
who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. 2 And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.
And no worries.. You and i can disagree no division or offence taken… 🙂
Brettstone
A valuable scripture I left out was one Hank put in his comment.
This adds a little more clarity to why I say it is the G/Trib, when the 1st century anointed are resurrected.
1 Thes 4:15,16 shows the two instances:
1 Voice of an Arch-Angel (Michael) who I believe to be Jesus, who has this rank/position during the G/Trib. He calls them ( 1st century chosen) from the grave,straight to heaven.
2 And with the trumpet of God, the 7th trumpet, being the last trumpet, this takes place after the chosen have finished their prophesying for the 3.5 yrs which is recorded in Rev 10 and also Rev 11 both chapters contain the 7th trumpet details and the chosen at this point are taken to heaven.
Jesus at this time has changed rank to king, and has all authority.
All these little bits build the picture.
The chosen come out of the G/Trib, but they are given life, you agree, Rev 7 states this,(shows they are in heaven, and some remain alive on earth) so if they have been given white robes, this shows salvation/perfection, all sins forgiven.
What is your understanding of the G/Trib and how long does it last?
Victor- Notice Matt 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
It would be a complete assumption to conclude that this trumpet blast only gathers the remaining living members of the bride class.
No mention here of wether it gathers both those who have fallen asleep in death and those remaining and die or the living who quite possibly are changed in twinkle of an eye…
But what proof do we have? We have Three scriptures that directly touch on the gathering of the bride class and it is the LAST TRUMPET that begins this process and Matthew tells us it begins after the tribulation is cut short Matt 24:29-31
Brettstone
Please forgive me I do not want to sound a know it all!!!
So you dismiss Dan 12: where Michael stands to rescue the chosen during the G/Tribulation, and the first resurrection takes place.
It will not all fit around this last trumpet,and I believe the assumption to be true, that it is the call for the remaining chosen/crowd walking the earth.
There is one big stumbling block, I have mentioned before on EW, only the chosen are aware of the G/Tribulation/Parousia time, most believe the G/Trib to be from world warIII, to the most horrible time in man’s history, this is an assumption a very real one, and they try and fit it to the last 3.5 years, when its duration has been much longer.
I think I have probably blown our developing relationship to bits now!!! For the time being maybe,
After reading all your comments and your reasoning, Jehovah is blessing you with much, you have studied this one point, two years, and no explanation feels comfortable, this is a good thing, be patient, and carry on in your search, sacred secrets that have been sealed for a long time.
Some times it pays to say nothing, is this one of those times?
Im reading your post again and i think im seeing your point.. Not sure though! Are you saying that in Dan 12:1 when he stands in behalf of those in the book, that this is when the resurrection occurs?
“During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.
Or Dan 12:2
And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.
(Because here i believe it is talking about the same time frame as John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15)??
Brettstone
Dan 12:1 yes,
the sanctuary Rev 11 are the first to be rescued,being the chosen ones
The outer courtyard (other sheep),have the ordeal of not accepting the mark, those that do not accept are blessed Rev 14:15
Brettstone,
You said, “To me everything has to make perfect sense.” I wish more people thought like you. That way they would continue studying the Bible until their point of view actually made sense and harmonized with the Bible as a whole.
I am thrilled that you long ago embraced the Ransom for ALL. We can actually read in 1 John 4:8 that “God is love,” and really believe it.
Thanks for being so honest in your questions and challenges. I will always share with you my point of view when I have one. It is your responsibility to come to your own conclusions based on what you can prove from and harmonize in the scriptures, regardless of what I have to say about it. I can learn from you, just as easily as visa versa.
Your next area of discussion relates to Rev 20:4-6. You said, “These scriptures seem to only make room for 2 resurrections that take place, 1st resurrection and the earthly resurrection during the millennium.” My opinion is that Rev 20:5 is spurious – “the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1,000 years were finished.” (I can provide evidence upon request.) There are scriptures we can quote that refer to only two resurrections (i.e. just and unjust – Acts 24:15, those resurrected to life and those to judgment – Jn 5:28-29, etc. From reviewing these texts, I agree that we find no evidence of a secondary spiritual class. However, I am personally satisfied that the Bible contains of a secondary spiritual class based on three reasons:
1) There is Bible evidence of a second class of anointed: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/05/01/what-happens-to-anointed-who-do-not-make-the-144000/
2) The only scriptural hope held out to the anointed is a heavenly: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/05/06/should-we-want-to-be-on-earth/
3) At consecration (baptism), our justified human life is sacrificed (can’t take it back) and we are begotten to a spiritual (heavenly hope).
Imagine if there were not a secondary anointed class. That would mean that everyone that was ever anointed would automatically be faithful and be part of the Bride of Christ (just like “once saved, always saved). Yet in 1 Cor 9:24 (NASV), Paul says, “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.” Clearly, not all the anointed attain to membership in the glorified Bride of Christ.
You asked, “Would Jehovah and Christ destroy this old order and not have people he views with a clean standing left over to take the lead in a new earthly society?”
The new earthly leaders will be the resurrected “Ancient Worthies” (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samuel, David, Daniel, Elijah, Moses, etc.)
Isa 32:1 – Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule with justice. (NKJ)
Ps 45:16 – Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, whom You shall make princes in all the earth. (NKJ)
Isa 1:26 – I will restore your judges as at the first, and your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.” (NKJ)
Matt 8:11 – And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (NKJ)
Ps 47:9 – The princes of the people have gathered together, the people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; he is greatly exalted. (NKJ)
Jer 3:15 – And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. (NKJ)
Jer 23:4 – I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the LORD. (NKJ)
Dan 12:13 – But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. – (NKJ)
You said, “I believe that when Christ arrives! Not at the beginning of his parousia but what is described at Matt 24:29-31 theses partial understandings will be made complete.”
My thoughts on Matt 24 are here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2012/09/01/our-lords-great-prophecy-jesus-second-presence/
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.
Forgive me for providing so many links. A book would be need to be written to address all you questions and thoughts. However, your conversation is very stimulating. Thanks for sharing with us on the FJW site.
Peter- Thank you once again for your thoughts and the scriptures you shared… Very thought provoking and much for me to consider. I appreciate your love for truth and I’m gonna read up on the information shared, and look forward to read the suggested book by brother Russell I always admire his knowledge…
But please, I would like further information on Revelation 20:5 (possibly spurious)
I always understood this verse to mean that the rest of the dead do not come to life in the sense that they do not receive the reward of life until they live through judgement day (1,000 yrs) and pass final test.
Brettstone – To respond to your question about Rev 20:5, I created this article that you can check out: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2014/07/08/revelation-205-nasv-the-rest-of-the-dead-did-not-come-to-life-until-the-thousand-years-were-completed/
Peter- Do I believe that the JW organization will continue on into the new system running just as it is today? The answer is no way! I believe when Christ sets up his earthly rule or kingdom everything we have known will be a thing of the past. I know there are differences in Jw and BS beliefs but many similar. Kingdom, bride class, no trinity, purpose for mankind. I am completely awed by Bro Russell’s incite to scripture truly amazing only possible by Jehovah’s spirit and not another like him since.
So I will continue to study with prayer and zeal. I plan to read the 6 volumes. And keep open mind with regard to location of great crowd. But everything has to fit (resurrection, type of body, work preformed) just how my mind works.
I do have one belief that may be different from both JW and BS. That is every example in scripture with regards to Jehovah’s people they have gone astray in some way or another before he calls them back he disciplines them. It’s hard to believe that this is not anti typical of his people in the final part of the end. The only one we don’t have writings about is what 1st century Christians went through in 66-70C.E but I imagine they were scattered about and refined or disciplined someway or another. I do believe the same is for us today when that great time of test comes our congregations are going to be attacked even dispersed (JW’s and BS) and it will be up to individual or families to maintain loyalty. I think it is naive to think otherwise. And have always thought that manny witnesses fool themselves thinking the org will operate through Armageddon. In fact manny of the scriptures we apply to ourselves that BS apply to Isreal tell of being dispersed and disciplined for disloyalty then called back. These scriptures are not a anomaly.
Where can I download them electronically to my IPad
Brettstone,
The Crux of what Russell taught and what Bible Students believe is in the Book the “Divine Plan of the Ages.” If one reads it and objects to it, they need read no further. However, if one likes it, then more blessings await as they progress on.
You said, “every example in scripture with regards to Jehovah’s people they have gone astray in some way or another before he calls them back he disciplines them.”
Or as Paul put it:
1 Cor 10:12 (NASV) “…let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.”
Hebrews 12:6 (NLT) “For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
The difference is that with Israel, God was dealing with a nation. With us, he is dealing with individuals on an intimate and personal level.
Brettstone – It will take some time to respond to your questions. Thanks. They are really good questions and also good thoughts.
You asked what kind of services the Great Crowd will perform in heaven?
The Bible does not discuss the Great Crowd very much. Since there is “ONE hope of our calling,” that being membership in the bride of Christ, the Bible focuses on that.
Even so, we can get some scriptural help to answer this question and we discuss that here at this link:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/05/06/the-role-of-the-great-crowd/
Basically, the Great Crowd will be doing various services in support of Jesus and His body members (the 144,000), just like under the law of Moses, the job of the tribe of Levi was to support the work of the priests. We don’t know the details, however since we see angels appearing to people in the Bible, I would imagine that the Great Crowd will do much of the same, going back and forth between heaven and Paradise earth. I think this may have been pictured in Jacobs dream.
Genesis 28:12 NLT
As he slept, he dreamed of a stairway that reached from the earth up to heaven. And he saw the angels of God going up and down the stairway.
EXPANDED BIBLICAL COMMENTS
Genesis 28:12
Behold a ladder — The Lord Jesus, the connecting link between heaven and earth. R3483:6, R3965:1 “Hereafter ye shall see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.” (John 1:51). D629
The re-establishment of peace and fellowship between heaven and earth. PD28/41; R5199:6
Communication between heaven and earth- the Messianic Kingdom. R5200:4
Behold the angels — Messengers of God, the “princes” of the new dispensation, including Jacob himself. D629
Brettstone,
I agree with you that the First Resurrection can only apply to the body members of Christ who rule with Christ as King Priests.
The Great Crowd are mentioned in Psalms 45:14 as the virgins, the brides companions in the Kings palace. These same bride’s companions are the Great Crowd of Rev 19:6 who in verse 7 are at the marriage supper (in heaven) rejoicing.
Revelation 19:1, 7 NASB
“After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;… Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.””
In Revelation 19 the great Wedding of Christ and His Bride waits until this Great Multitude (Crowd) is resurrected and joins them. This is after and not part of the First Resurrection. Just as an anxious bride makes plans for her bridesmaids to be present at her wedding, so the Bridegroom graciously makes arrangements to assure his fiance’s companions are present.
Did Reslight pass away?
Hank – I have not heard that, but will investigate. What makes you think he might have passed away.
Hi Jacqueline, thankyou so much for your kind reply, it is much appreciated. I t makes me feel better that others have experienced similar issues as myself & I really hope they found their answers. I recently found out the 2 questions that are associated with the baptismal vows that you mentioned in your reply which is another reason I am very cautious & wary. In an old watchtower I think it was June or July 1955 it states that you should not get baptized in the name of the one emersing you, or in any man’s name or in a asscociation or in allegiance with an organization. The reasoning on this changed in 1985 as this was when the above 2 questions that are to be answered by the person being baptized were introduced. This just doesn’t sit right with me, I have searched the bible & there is no such reference regarding baptism into the an earthly spirit directed organization. It is simply the Father – the Son & the Holy Spirit. So how do I or where do I get baptized in an acceptable way? Do I need to have an outward show of baptism or is it enough to dedicate yourself to Jehovah by prayer?
Hi, i am trying to establish my standing with Jehovah & Jesus. I have involved with Jw’s for around 18 years on & off which obviously included studying with the them. I finally settled down in an area & local congregation but found some of the elders there a little judgemental but that’s another story! I made many changes inside & out but it never seemed to be enough & was told I couldn’t get baptized which surprised some of the other congregation members. I became very depressed over this as I had started going out on ministry as an unbaptized publisher & enrolled in the theocratic school etc but this was soon stopped too, I was told at the time this was because of some surgery I had & they they didnt want to pressure me but later found out that this was not true! I ceased going to meetings as we were noticing things which inturn started to stumblw us. Also certain doctrine I disagreed with & didn’t sit right with me. I have made a handful of very good friends at my kingdom hall congregation but fear my absence will affect my relationship with them. Anyway my question is, what would be my standing with Jehovah & Jesus being unbaptized?
Hi seen the light and thanks for commenting. Your experience is typical of many that have associated with JW. I got baptized at 62 because at 12 when baptized as a witness the organization had formed and I really never was introduced to Jesus but men out of new york with the Circuit overseers were who I was committed to.
If you got baptized by Jehovah witnesses you would not be baptized into Christ but into an organization. Here are the questions you would be asked.
The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.” Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30
These are the articles printed here for your consideration until Br. Peter come on to answer you or one of the other brothers:
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/baptism-and-dedication/
Hi seen the light.
This is the entire article about that so others will know what we are talking about:
Watchtower changes Baptism Questions to include Dedication to Organization
“Therefore now with your mouth make a public declaration of your faith by answering these two questions that I shall ask you, and let your answers be hearable, that all those about you may be witnesses to the declaration that you solemnly make:
(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?” Watchtower 1956 July 1 p.407
An important comment was made in 1955, something significantly contradicted in the arrangement introduced in 1985.
“A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit.” Watchtower 1955 July 1 p.411
“We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah.” Watchtower 1966 October 1 pp.603-604
In total disregard for these previous comments and Biblical examples, in 1985 the baptism questions changed, with the candidate having to announce their desire to become associated with an Organization.
“At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ’s example.
The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism.” Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30
I will let Br. Peter answer you directly on this. But here are my thoughts: Since we are to be “Witnesses of Jesus” (Jews are the witnesses of Jehovah”) and he said to baptize in his name, the father and the holy Spirit, I felt within myself that I needed to do it. There are some who feel doing so wasn’t necessary as Consecration to him was known by him. For me it was personal, to find out that in 1960 the organization had formed and it’s governingbody bothered me and I wanted to outwardly acknowledge Jesus as my head and saviour. Also it was my one freeing moment, a final break from the governingbody as I was baptized into Christ’s death. I knew for some time that heaven was my hope and this was just an outward sign so he would know I was no longer afraid to show I was freeing myself after 60 years from these 9 men.
Others may have a point of view and will answer later. I will alert them to your post at our Wednesday night study. Take Care you are on the right track.
PS: Did the armageddon (hellfire doctrine) set well with you? I always wanted armageddon never to come so the poor children wouldn’t have to die for the stupidity of their parents. That took a weigh off me when I learned what armageddon really was. https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/armageddon-2/
Hi again Jacqueline, thankyou so much for the time you have taken with your in-depth reply. I too am uncomfortable with taking sole direction from the governing body that let’s be honest IS made up of imperpect men. I think they genuinely believe that they are doing the right thing but somewhere along the road they have become blinded by their own reasoning & thoughts. I kinda feel that the governing body has put themselves in the place of Christ in some respects as alot of Jw’s seem to look for direction vis them & the organization rather than Jesus himself even though Jesus clearly said that he was the way, there is no other way but through him do we reach Jehovah the one true God. I do believe that the Jw’s have the basic principles & moral attitude right & also I truly believe that the majority of the domestics (the regular Jw’s) really do have a deep love for Jehovah & just want to do right by him & I admire their zeal & passion, but I also feel so sad that they have been mislead what with all the changes that have taken place within the organization. I do thankyou them whole heartedly for helping me to come to good knowledge of the scriptures but it has become obvious to me that I have been searching for a much deeper understanding all along which when looking back over the years is what kept driving me & making me aquestion some of the doctrine. I think Jerome’s post that he presented was very interesting & most enlightening as was yours Jacqueline.
Thankou once again x
seen the light, to have not been baptized as a witness and in for a long time you have great insight. I was a born in, indoctrinated from birth. Reared and closely surrounded in a family with over 232 members at one count who were witnesses it would have been impossible to see the error.
But the Holy Spirit helped me as I earnestly prayed. As you stated most witnesses are sincere but to get joy out of the thought of little children being hacked at armageddon disturbed me. The pictures dicpicted in the mags broke my heart. I dealt head on with them on the pedophile issues, every filthy thing done in this organization, Jesus exposed me to it but I didn’t recognize that Jehovah was calling me. I knew I got strength and courage to go head to head with CO or whomever But here you see it at the beginning, some of my neices saw it and left but it took a lot for me to walk away.
Once doing so the Spirit put me on a road to getting to know God and JESUS.
You are correct that the governingbody has replaced Jesus in the hearts and minds of most witnesses. They WORSHIP THESE MEN. I was told by a brother that it was like I was speaking against the Pope. It was my son and my heart again broke for my adult child viewed them as the pope.
You have been blessed by God and you too are not aware of his mercy toward you. You saw it before he had to expose you to the dirt in New York and among the elder bodies.
Use this as an opportunity to learn the truth about Jesus. This is a wonderful website that explain the bible in a way that a witness would understand as witnesses have to undo their minds.
There is not the control of your thoughts and ability to speak question and share what holy spirit reveals to you. We are brothers indeed here.
I have tested, tried and rubbed closely on these my brothers the Bible Students and they are trying. This is where Jehovah landed me.
I see you are aware of the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, follow it and it will lead you to Jesus. The governingbody assumed the position of the Jews as Jehovah’s witnesses because they felt God is a liar and went back on his promise to Abraham another thing that bothered me about Jehovah and keeping his word.
You are nice in saying the GB genuinely believe they are doing the right thing. I think they are billionaire money and power hungry men. At one annual meeting one said if we are the governing body let us get to governing!!! He had the same fervor as JIM JONES and David Koresh, men that took the place of Jesus in the lives of their followers. Because I have been close up on the evil within I have nothing good to say about the governing body. I have to unteach fierce error in my mind.
Many Christian religions teaches their members the stories in the bible so they get no applause there. They have a measure of truth and can get in touch with Jehovah, that is why I am so hard on the governing body. They are intelligent men and knows that some of the teachings are wrong. For support of this see.
Raymond Franz book: “In Search of Christian Freedom” and “Crisis of Conscience”. He was a governing body member and actually present the letters where they acknowledge they know what they teach is in error. I like the hard copy because of all his documentation of just who theses men are.
It is probably a journey that you are on, ENJOY it as the Spirit of God takes you there. Sincerely and in Christian Love, Jacqueline
Jacqueline you have come a long way in your journey, I can see this in what you write. Thankyou for your kind words & thankyou for sharing some of your experiences with me/us.
I am on a journey yes, there many twists & turns in mine but at last I feel I am making good progress. I have had to learn & still am learning to love & heal myself with the help of Jesus & Jehovah.
As I said in my previous post I have been involved with the Jw’s & the organization for many years. I have been mistreated by certain individuals throughout this time & it’s nearly stumbled me to the point of no return, I have been bullied by some family members which again was a very difficult stumbling block to overcome but I did overcome it all. I’ve moved home a fair bit & always was either drawn to finding the local kingdom hall or out of the blue they would call on me. I have had more studies than I can remember so I’m pretty clued up in that sense. I always felt something wasn’t quite right & this was not because of my previous mistreatment. Just something just did’t seem to sit right with me somehow. For a while I just ignored that feeling as felt it was probably just me & decided to throw myself into the meetings at my present kingdom hall. I started going out on ministry as an unbaptized publisher & enrolled in the theocratic school & was making changes inward & outward, we made some great friends within the congregation. Then I had some news which involved me having to have 2 bouts of surgery & was a bit of a worrying time for myself, my wife & children but all turned out all ok & the surgery went well. BUT whilst all this was going on, I was asked one evening at a meeting to have a private chat with 2 of the elders one of which used to regularly sit in on my study. To my surprise I was told that they thought it wasn’t a good idea for me to go out on ministry due to my surgery as they didn’t want to put me under too much pressure, although disappoited I went along with it & ceased going out on ministry. Well weeks turned into months & no elders had approached me regarding going back out on ministry. I kept asking my study conductor who was also my good friend about it & he approached the elders about it but still no real response. It turned into approx a year & a half when finally an elder approached me. I was told that I couldn’t go out on ministry because I looked to worldly which lead to the next blow which was that I couldn’t get baptized either! A double whammy! I tried to reason with him but to no avail. I was told to change my hair style & at the time I had side burns that may I add were very groomed & neat, I was told to shave them. Now the thing is when I was going out on ministry a year or so prior to this, my hair was longer & styled in a kind of rockabilly way with longer wider sideburns & yet I was allowed to go out on ministry & take part in the school, very strange I thought. I soon realised that my surgery had nothing to do with why they wanted me to stop going out on ministry, it was because I didn’t totally conform to their requirements & was still my own person in many respects even though my hair & sideburns were alot more toned down than what they were when I was out on ministry all that time ago. Also I have made big changes within which showed through in my personality & work. Anyway the elder said that the way I look was detracting from the message, God’s message. I reasoned again saying that if a beautiful woman who was a baptized Jw was to call at the door & a man happened to answer he would naturally notice right away the way she looked, would this then not detract from the message even if for just a short instance, you cannot change people’s first reaction when they look at you as it’s human nature, for example if someone is unfortunately deformed or disabled this also gets noticed in that first initial instance. Again he just couldn’t see or maybe didn’t want to see or consider my reasoning. Anyway I accepted what he said & if I am honest made me feel very depressed for quite a while, I felt so unworthy & worthless. It was not an easy time for my wife & children as I was so down all the time & very angry. I took a break from the meetings to get my head together. I decided to venture back but no for anyone other than Jehovah as I just wanted to please best way I could. Needless to say things were never quite the same which lead me to search for a deeper understanding & look for real answers, I started looking at things the way Jesus may see things & try & determine how he would deal with certain issues. The deeper I looked the more certain teachings by the Watchtower didn’t sit right with me. I used to watch closely how some of the elders & regular Jws would behave & started seeing cracks in there personalities especially if confronted with questions that were out of their comfort zone. To this day it deeply saddens me to say all of this because I have made some great friends within the organization but I know I have to speak up & tell some truths becuse it is the right thing to do but I also know that as a result could see an end to those friendships I hold dear, but Jehovah & Jesus are more important to me & who knows maybe what I have to say might just get some or even just one person there thinking & questioning just as I & all of you have done, what a blessing & a joy that would be!
Seen the light, If you have teenagers you know a “Friend” can be a force for good as well as keep you in a bad situation. Did any of them stand up for you, probably not!. So you haven’t lost much if you think about it. Elders didn’t care about your wife or kids either, a house divided works best for them as a wife will often plkead with a thinking husband so she does not lose her or her children’s friends.
Seen the light, In order to bring you in submission your captors have to break you. If you seem to have a thinking mind they found one thing that they could use to control you and let you know they call the shots. The watchtower society and their lawyers are not fools they are masterminds at how to break the spirit of a man. Notice that men will not come to the defense of their wives or children when ponced upon by the elders or the society? Because they broke these men first. Persons broken and abused will become captors of the concept that their abusers and captors are right and will identify with them against a love one even.
Satan is one of the more prolific deceivers but the governingbody and it’s lawyers know it works. Lying to you about the surgery is called theocratic tactics, that is why I don’t trust them. They lied in court and an elder later confessed because his conscience bothered him.
I love your analogies about a beautiful woman and a person deformed. They don’t give people any credit do they? Most think it is absurd to have on a suit and a tie in 104 degree weather. And having children out in sub zero and feet of snow. Most view the over dressing as a you think you are better than me attitude.
Jesus as you mentioned should weigh in on this. You could not tell from looking at him that he was the Christ but when he opened his mouth, wow! He fit in with the other Jewish nation. The JW want to stand out just the opposite of Jesus. Sisters in the high heels and dress not conducive to climbing stairs. It was another lie to you, it was not your appearance as you pointed out you were going in service before. IT was no doubt your mouth and logic that made them feel uneasy. Most elder bodies are cliches and an outspoken male might potentially expose wrongs. It is deeper than people realize with a huge organization. Assets are at stake at all times and the corporation must control problems and it’s image projection.
Yes, The society is a huge corporation with a huge lawyer force that loss quite a few cases but win when they get an outside lawyer firm against their own members.
We have a convention tab on this site, if you get the chance perhaps you could listen to the deepness of the talks with the bible. I was listening to an app called “Christian resources”. Br. David Rice gave a series of discussions on Revelation and it was shocking to me that the governingbody is so off in their rendering of the book. They have in my life time rewritten their books on Revelation 7 times claiming each time that it was from contact with God.
Thanks for providing explanation as I know there are quite a few following the conversations and they are often in a foreign language. That is why I have some explanation when I write so they understand. It seems you would be recognized as an asset, seeing you think things thru but the society is not so much religious as an organization like car manufacturers or a very successful business.
It becomes a problem for us when we try to think of them as religious. They are losing their best thinkers.
Hopefully this website will help you see some of the deeper things. I have learned a lot. First how to let brothers be themselves. Quite a few of our brothers wear beards. Look at the photos at some of the conventions. Only children worry about dress to the extent the witnesses do but it is a control factors. Take Care dear seen the light. Sincerely Jacqueline
PS: Most corporations have dress codes ie McDonalds, Burger King etc and they control their image but that has nothing to do with the Bible or God. Just money making corporations, which is okay in big business but the word of God should not be in the “business”.
Thankyou once again Jacqueline, it has very refreshing & helped a great deal sharing my experiences with you & also being able to share in yours via this great site, God bless x
Seen the light, thank you and may God and Jesus be with you in your quest to find him and become their friend. Sincerely, Jacqueline