Most Christians believe the New Covenant promised to Israel was transferred to spiritual Israel, the Church. Yet if God made an unconditional promise to natural Israel, to break it would make him a liar. It is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18). Without realizing it, many well meaning Christians have made God out to be a liar.
Jer 31:31-34 says, “31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (KJV)
This text can only apply to natural Israel, not the Christian church.
- Vrs. 31: Covenant made with house of Israel and house of Judah.
- Vrs. 32: Won’t be like covenant they broke after coming out of Egypt [Not true of Christian church. The Christian church never came out of Egypt].
- Context verifies natural Israel is being spoken of…
Jer 31:27-28: 27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. (KJV)
The Christian church was never plucked up and thrown down and destroyed by the Lord. These words can only apply to natural Israel.
Jer 31:35-37: 35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” 37 This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD. (NIV)
Israel will never cease to be a nation as long as the sun, moon and stars shine. God will never reject Israel since on Paradise Earth, the sun, moon and stars will continue to shine.
To K;
All the answers will be given tomorrow. But Please don’t anyone get offended.
Hank
Hank, we are the unoffendable. We discuss but we don’t have to all agree especially when the Bible does not specifically say something. I gues that is why the Bible is still the best seller and people still dig. Take Care.
To Jacquelin;
Thank you!
To K;
Thank you. Will put those two verses down.Jer 31:27,28,”Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass that, like as i have watched over them to pluck up and to break down and to overthrow and to destroy and to affict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant saith Jehovah.”
Lets add 29 and 30 to complete paragraph. “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour gr, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.”
Lets see if Jehovah gives us any clues in his word. Ezekiel who was writing from Babylon while Jermiah wrote from Judah mostly, with Jeremiahs covering a few decades or so longer time frame.
Ez 18:1-4,”The word of Jehovah came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
Daniel wrote at 9:14,”Therefore hath Jehovah watched over the evil, and brought it upon us; for Jehovah our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth, and we have not obeyed his voice.”
Daniel’s writing was completed about 55 years after Ezekiel’s, and from Babylon also.
Jer 44:27,”Behold, I watch over them for evil,and not for good;and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall beconsumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be a end to them.”
Jere 45:4,”Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up; and this is the whole land.”
Most Bible Students believe it happened to Jerusalem.
Thanks for the info. Hank! The JW’s say the prophecies of Israel are now applied to spiritual Israel( the Israel of God)……can you explain how this can be since “the Christian church was never plucked up and thrown down and destroyed by the Lord”?.
I searched the library of JW.org for Jer. 31:27-28 and the Info. concerning these was very sketchy at best!
Hank quoted Eze. 18:1-4 that shows the person that sins will determine their standing with God. The Jews had a saying or proverb mentioned in Jer.31:27-30 that indicated a mother or father could make a decision that their children would pay the penalty for in the future or they would suffer in the household if the parents made bad decisions now. And that does happen too offspring now.
But that would not be the way during 1,000 yr reign each individual will be able to decide and determine their own destiny by obedience or not aside from their parents decisions or others.
Also you would need to have the JW bound volumes to get their view as the JW.org is very limited. A lot is not printed. I have called to get the exact article for a subject because the brothers have a program that has everything ever printed even if it is out of print. Hope this helps. I agree this applies to the Jews specifically but is a true statement for all with Jehovah.
Jacqueline, I understand the “sour grapes” concept but if all the prophecies of natural Israel now apply spiritual(since some think the Jews were totally rejected by God in 70C.E.)how can the part about being “plucked up,thrown down and destroyed by the Lord” apply to them, i.e.spiritual Israel?
I am going to partially answer now until maybe Br. Peter answer. Only JW believe that the Jews was totally rejected in 70CE. (Tongue in cheek, may be a few others) My Baptist cousin was shocked at this thought and quite a few other Christian religions. I think this is Natural Israel not spiritual Israel. I need to run reference on the scripture however.
To Peter;
Reconciliation by JFR 1928 page 334,”seeing that Keturah represents the new covenant.”
“The six sons of Keturah would well represent the Gentile nations or all non-Jews.”
Jehovah by JFR 1934 page 248,”Keturah’s children were not by Isaac, who was a type of Christ Jesus, but by Abraham, who pictured Jehovah God himself. For this reason it is seen that the six sons of Keturah could not represent the earthly or human class.”
The patriarch Abraham had one wife named Sarah, and two concubines, the first of these being Hagar and the second Keturah… then Abraham married and had six sons.”
page 249,”The six children of Abraham by Keturah picture those toward whom the new covenant was inaugurated after the birth of the Kingdom.”
page 259,”The bringing of these other saints into God’s royal family, therefore, was clearly forshadowed by the six sons of Abraham by Keturah.”
SO Peter, the Judge shows the 1881 closing of the high calling being opened again such as you believe.
Hank – Sorry, I am not biting. I think JF Rutherford got it wrong. Each of the first two covenants, bore but one offspring: The first, the “heir of all things” (Isaac–the spiritual Israel), and the second, fleshly Israel, beloved for the Father’s sake. But the New Covenant (Keturah) bears six sons, which, taken with the one of Hagar would be seven–a complete number–representing that all the fleshly children would be developed under the Hagar and Keturah or “Law” and “New” Covenants.
To Jacquelin and Peter;
Thank you for responding. I love your dedication both. Jacquelin for your gift in speaking. Peter for your you can’t take me out attitude. Why those two wonderful qualities sets me back a bit. Not back in a bad way, but in a way of —————–.
Currently the booklet by the Dawn is what I am taking in. Along with contact with one from the Ohio area Bible Students. The booklet is titled, HOPE for a Fear-Filled World. And a new one has also put up some questions fron his study in Vol I. which for the sake of respect I will not mention the questions. And Peter that was a huge article and I thank you for that.
But in researching it I found the name Keturah mentioned four times in the 39 books. Paul in mentioning Sarah and Hagar but Keturah presents a problem. Thinking out of the box is a must for me. Why under inspiration did Paul leave her name out? Or was it a error to use her in the story? Also which of these is true? 1 Ch 1:32,”And the sons of Keturah, Abraham’s concubine.” Gen 25:1,”And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.” Not married or married? Ezra or Moses? Another thing that needs answering is, her sons,why are they not talked about like Issac, and Ishmael? Issiac is mentioned about 4 to 1 on Ishmael. Zimran twice; Jokshan 4 times;
Medan twice; Midian twice, but his name continued on as a enemy of Israel, but a postive was written by Isaiah. 60:5,6,11-14.; Ishbak twice; Shuah twice.
Six kids married or not married. And how could we illustrate something to show how Keturah could be used? Well, the convention had three people given a piece of paper with a different scripture written on it. No where in the Bible do I find that happening. So if one goes throught all rhe things e Students do, they can find things like Keturah thrown into Paul’s other two, or pieces of paper given at baptism.
Hope this helps Peter as why I struggle a bit with your info.
Hank – You asked why Paul under inspiration did not teach that Keturah represented the New Covenant. The answer is that with the Galatian brethren, Paul was not discussing the New Covenant. As a matter of fact, the expression New Covenant does not appear in the book of Galatians. There was no reason to bring up the topic of the New Covenant since Paul was demonstrating how we are no longer under the Law Covenant, but rather come in under the seed of the Abrahamic Covenant.
To all thinkers;
How many believe God made a covenant for Jesus?
How many believe Jesus made a covenant with the eleven?
Hpw many believe this is going to be after the Law covenant of Moses?
So if it comes after Moses covenant, would it not be new,or newer? Is 42:6,”I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people,for a light of the Gentiles.”
Is 32:1,”Behold, a king shall reign.”IS 41:13,”For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand,saying unto thee,Fear not;I will help thee.” IS 49:8,”in a day of salvation have I helped thee:and I will preserve thee,and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages.” Mt 26:28,”of the new testament.”-covenant. Heb 8:6,”first tabernacle.” 7,”the second went the high priest alone.” And it says once every year for himself and the sins of those under the Mosiac Law Covenant. But note what Jesus does. “How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without spot to God…he is the mediator of the new testament.” 14,15. And who benifits?
“they which are called might recieve the promise of eternal inheritence…For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” 15,16. Those who are called. Heb 3:1 says about them,”holy brethren partakes of the heavenly calling. 9:24,”For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true;but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” For us, that would be those called. A few verses earlier he showed that animals were sacrificed at the start of the Mosiac covenant, but this sacrifice by Jesus a perfect human was far greater. And just as Moses setting up the Law with only the high priest going in the most holy, Jesus started it by going into the Most holy in heaven.
Moses covenant didn’t wait a few thousand years to kick in, and neither did the new covenant wait a few thousand years to kick in. The Bible writer said now.
Hope some people will discuss their thoughts. Peter has been very grasious and I don’t want him to because he has done plenty.
Hank
Hank it will be difficult for me to answer as your first are statements of assumption with narrowed choices. One might answer no to all three because of the way they are worded stating facts and asking if one agrees. You will get fewer responses with the wording in this manner. You might ask what do you believe about covenants as regard Jesus and Jehovah, Jesus and his apostles, and how does this relate to the law covenant of Moses if there is such, as regards time periods. It might give a little more wiggle room. Just a little suggestion since you are taking Br. Peter out of the mix, he needs no wiggle room but some of us do. Take Care Hank
Hank – I am curious are you a former or current JW or Bible Student? Knowing this will help in knowing how to respond.
Hank – Sorry to disappoint you, but you can’t ask me not to participate in the discussion.
All the scriptures you list are explained in the Article we have been linking to here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2013/07/20/who-has-a-covenant-relationship-with-jehovah/
Do you disagree with our explanation? If our interpretation of these verses are in error, we would be receptive to hearing from you how our explanation is flawed and how you can explain the verses better.
1Peter3:6 shows that the Sarah covenant IS the mother of those in the New Covenant. The reason for this belonging, is not said to be flesh…but by Faith.
“as Sarah used to obey Abraham, calling him “lord.” And YOU have become her children, provided YOU keep on doing good and not fearing any cause for terror.”
Issac is not the 144000…Christ is the “seed”. After being born in the manner of flesh, he was raised in the manner of spirit. From Isaac, came Jacob …and his 12 sons.
These twelve sons according to the flesh, have been replaced by the apostles. These have become the founding fathers of the spiritual 12 tribes of anointed ones…all of which together, comprise New Jerusalem.
It is true that Jesus was sinless. None the less, he also was baptized as a symbol of repentance. He said the reason for this was that in that way “it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous”Matt.3:15. Jesus became the repurchasing father, providing the blood that sealed the New Covenant. Though such was not required for his own life, he did it, for the sake of his anointed sons. In this way, he humbly became first in all things.
Pearl – Thanks. I really respect your knowledge of the scriptures. My thought is that the book of 1 Peter never specifically mentions the New Covenant. When Sarah is discussed as our Mother on Galations 4, it is after Paul has been discussing two covenants, the Law Covenant (pictured by Hagar) and the Abrahamic Covenant (pictured by Sarah). Paul says in Galations, “If you are Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” So according to Paul, we are blessed under the Abrahamic (on the New) Covenant.
Yes, God searches the heart.
He writes his laws on those hearts that are complete toward Him.
This purity of heart is revealed by how one regards the scriptures,
and if they direct one’s thinking in all humility.
All the nations, including Jews,
will be offered life…
Rev.22:17
“And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”
Yes, let “anyone that wishes”
…not just the Nation that rejected and executed the Son of God.
Gal.3:28,29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
If you are Abraham’s seed, you are Sarah’s seed…children of promise.
This is absolutely attached to Gal.4:23,24,26,28,31….
23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman THROUGH A PROMISE. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for THESE WOMEN MEAN TWO COVENANTS, the one from Mount Si´nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha´gar. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was. 31 Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman.”
That free woman is Sarah, the new covenant.
She is Jerusalem above.
She is mother of the heirs of the Kingdom.
They have been set free from sin, by the blood of that covenant.
Without blood being poured out, “no forgiveness takes place.”
Sarah’s children are free,
because of the blood of that covenant.
Why do you work to nullify the scriptures?
What of your original comments, and the scriptures to back them?
Pearl – You have thought these issues through deeply and you have some very intelligent thoughts. I do NOT think that Sarah pictured the New Covenant. Let me explain why.
(Note: when I say “church” I am usually referring the the anointed bride of Christ, those “baptized into Christ’s dearth (Rom 6) to be part of the heavenly 144,000.)
Let’s not two observations:
1) Nowhere in Galatians does Paul mention the “New Covenant.”
2) Paul explicitly mentions both the Law Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and begins that discussion in chapter 3.
Now let’s start reading with Gal 4:21. Paul says, “Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?”
Notice, that some in the Early Church felt they were under the Law Covenant. So why doesn’t Paul simply tell them that they can’t be under the Law Covenant, because now they are under the New Covenant? If in Paul’s day the Church were already under the New Covenant, this would have been the obvious argement to bring out, The answer is that Paul did not make that arguement, because they were not under the New Covenant.
Now let’s read more.
Gal 4 (NASV)
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
1) Vs 24 clearly states that Hagar and Sarah represent two covenants.
What Covenant does Hagar represent?
In verse 25, the covenant from Mount Sinai is clearly the Law Covenant. So, Hagar represents the Law Covenant. Ishmael, her son, represents natural Israel.
Gal 3:19 tells us that the Law was “added” to the Abrahamic Covenant. Hagar was “added” to Abraham’s family, illustrating that the Law was “added” to the Abrahamic Covenant.
Hagar’s son was born first and represents how the Jewish people were the first that came into the inheritance under God’s favor.
Notice how verse 25 says “she is in slavery with her children.” So even though in Paul’s day the Law Covenant was dying, the Jews were still in slavery, under that Law covenant. Hagar (the Law) was still with Ishmael (natural Israel).
Paul shows that the Jews were still under the Law Covenant in his day by explaining in Romans that that in order to come into Christ, they had to come out from under the Law Covenant.
Rom 7:4 … you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ,
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NASV
So Paul explains that in order for the Jews to come out from under the Law, they had to come into Christ.
Reading on – Gal 4 (NASV)
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
When Hagar was cast out, she took her son Ishmael with her, showing that during their period of disfavor, Israel has remained in bondage, under that dying Law Covenant, and will continue under the Law until the New Covenant replaces it.
What Covenant does Sarah represent?
Gal 4 (NASV)
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Sarah is associated with Abrahamic Covenant and her son Isaac is The Christ, Head and Body, heirs of the promise–through whom all families of the earth are to be blessed. The Church is developed under the same Covenant-Mother as was Christ, a Covenant of sacrifice. (Psa 50:5)
As Sarah was older than Hagar, but barren for many years, so the primary, or chief, Covenant of God was barren for nearly two thousand years and only began to bring forth the seed of promise in Jesus’ resurrection from the dead and also in the begetting of the entire Church by the holy Spirit. The antitypical son of Sarah has already been more than nineteen centuries in process of development.
After the Sarah Covenant has finished its travailing, and has fully brought forth the Isaac class (the Church), then the New Covenant will be established with natural Israel.
In the type Sarah died prior to the time that Isaac married Rebecca. This signifies that once the Church is complete and joined with her bridegroom, that the Abrahamic Covenant’s purpose of developing the spirtual seed will have already been completed. This Seed of Abraham will then be ready to bless all people. The Church will be aided by another covenant that was added, the New Covenant.
Why Should We Associate the Sarah Covenant with Spiritual Israel?
We often call the Sarah Covenant, the “Grace Covenant” or the “Covenant of Sacrifice.” It is that portion of the Abrahamic Covenant that relates to the spiritual seed, the bride of Christ. How do we know this?
Let’s again read Gal 4:28-29 again. (NASV)
Gal 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
In verse 28, Paul says that we are “children of promise.” In verse 29, the expression, “him who was born according to the Spirit,” identifies the “heirs (or children) of promise” (of verse 23) as the spiritual seed of the Abrahamic Covenant. Therefore, Sarah pictures that part of the Abrahamic Covenant relating to the spiritual seed, not the earthly seed. Do you understand? (pause)
The earthly seed (sand of the sea) is not part of this Sarah type. Keturah pictures that. The New Covenant is added to the Abrahamic Covenant to aid in accomplishing the blessing to the earthly seed. Since there is overlap between the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant in regards to the blessing of the earthly seed, Keturah represents the New Covenant, which would be a means of accomplishing the blessing of Abraham’s earthly seed. Sarah does not have a second son to picture the sand of the sea. To do so would confuse the fact that there would be a New Covenant pictured by a new wife, Keturah. This was the simplest way God could present this in type.
Why can’t Sarah represent the New Covenant?
As we know, Sarah represents the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant cannot be considered a New Covenant, since it is the oldest of the three covenants. The New Covenant will follow the Old Law Covenant which it replaces. It is the final covenant that follows both the Abrahamic and Law Covenants. The Old Sarah Covenant cannot represent the New Covenant.
Also, if Sarah represented the New Covenant, then that would place under it the Isaac Class, the spiritual seed. Christ, as head of that Isaac seed, cannot be under the New Covenant. He did not need anything the New Covenant provides in Jer 31. He did not need the forgiveness of sins, God’s law was already written on his heart and he already knew Jehovah. So it would make no sense for Sarah to represent the New Covenant, since we know that here seed, Jesus Christ, is not under that covenant, nor can be his body members.
Who represents the New Covenant?
We have already stated that we believe that Keturah represents the New Covenant. Abraham married Keturah (Gen 25) after Sarah died (Gen 23), showing that the New Covenant begins after the Abrahamic Covenant has completed the work of developing the spiritual seed, the Isaac Class. The New Covenant is added to the Abrahamic Covenant and becomes a means for the blessings of all the families of the earth.
Keturah did not become a wife until after Isaac’s marriage (Gen 24), which typified that the New Covenant would go into effect after the marriage of Christ and the Church. Keturah’s six sons pictured the imperfect world of mankind brought back under the New Covenant arrangement. When joined with the Ishmael class, natural Israel, we have a complete seven of all mankind under the New Covenant. Even though Keturah is called a wife in Gen 25:1, in 1 Chron 1:32 she is called a concubine. We think this is to demonstrate, even though Sarah was dead, she was Abraham’s special wife through whom his seed (Isaac) would come and no one else could be considered an equal wife to Sarah. In Heb 11:17 Isaac is called Abraham’s “only begotten son,” which highlights Sarah’s prominent status as Abraham’s wife.
So Keturah, the lesser wife, pictures the New Covenant, which was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.