According to the book, “Pastor Russell – Founder of the Bible Students,” published by Bible Students Christian Classics:
So what did happen in 1914? Is there any evidence to support or deny the position of Pastor Russell? The outbreak of an unprecedented world war caused the following reaction from the publisher of a noted periodical. The August 30, 1914, issue of The World Magazine in a feature article about Bible Student predictions reported:
The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For 25 years Bible Students have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. The Bible speaks of a “time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” This prophecy of Daniel Bible Students identify as the “Day of Wrath,” the “Time of the Lord,” and the so-called “End of the World,” references which are plentiful in the Scriptures.
Historians have much to say about that eventful year 1914. The following is a part of the historical record.
Edmond Taylor while quoting Arnold Toynbee said:
“Looking back from the vantage point of the present we see that the outbreak of World War I ushered in a twentieth-century “Time of Troubles”… from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged. Directly or indirectly all the convulsions of the last half century stem back to 1914: the two World Wars, the Bolshevik Revolution, the rise and fall of Hitler, the continuing turmoil in the Far and Near East, the power-struggle between the communist world and our own. More than 23,000,000 deaths can be traced to one or the other of these upheavals.”
Britannica Great Books, THE GREAT IDEAS TODAY:
“A world mesmerized by Science and progress mocked the mysticism of religious sects which had long predicted that the world would end in the year 1914; fifty years later the world isn’t so sure that it didn’t end in 1914.”
OXFORD HISTORIAN AND BIOGRAPHER:
“If ever there was a year that marked the end of an era and the beginning of another, it was 1914. That year brought to an end the old world with its sense of security and began a modern age whose chief characteristic is insecurity on a daily basis.”
1914 is clearly marked by unbiased historians as the ending of a world. The convulsions since are at once the processes of its disintegration and the birth pains of a new world. Britannica editors, as noted, observed that a religious group (actually known as Bible Students) predicted 1914 would mark the ending of a world in just this manner.
The list of writers describing the unprecedented destructive forces unleashed in 1914 is phenomenal and more continue to add their observations to this day.
In his book, OUT OF CONTROL, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor and professor of American Foreign Policy at John Hopkins University, notes that the 20th century began amid great hope and promise, but became the century of insanity. In elaborating on his observation of 175 million slaughtered in the name of the “politics of organized insanity,” he says:
“Contrary to its promise, the twentieth century became mankind’s most bloody and hateful century of hallucinatory politics and of monstrous killings. Cruelty was institutionalized to an unprecedented degree, lethality was organized on a mass production basis. The contrast between the scientific potential for good and the political evil that was actually unleashed is shocking. Never before in history was killing so globally pervasive, never before did it consume so many lives, never before was human annihilation pursued with such concentration of sustained effort on behalf of such arrogantly irrational goals.”
These observations of history confirm Pastor Russell’s prediction that the old world began to end in 1914 and is currently being ushered completely out of existence by a consuming process of wars, revolutions and anarchy. The evidence of history clearly teaches that 1914 is the most significant date in modern times as it marks a sharp break with the past. The wars and upheavals, social turmoil and unrest since 1914 are greater, deeper, and more unrelenting than anything mankind has ever experienced. Were Pastor Russell’s expectations then flatly and patently wrong? Was he indeed a false prophet? NO! Pastor Russell was correct concerning 1914 being the beginning of the end. He was indefinite as to the length of this trouble that would terminate our world or social order Without making a prediction, he allowed that it could last a hundred years after 1914. No one has given a better explanation of the events of the 20th century.
Let the reader note that this was not the last word of Pastor Russell on the subject—that the world would end amidst the greatest and most widespread trouble ever before experienced by man. NO! The trouble of the present time and recent past is merely the passing of the old order as a new order of righteousness, peace, and everlasting life is to be ushered in for the benefits and blessing of all the families of the earth who accept and obey God’s words of life. This is the real reason the doomsayers opposed him. Their theology could not accept this good news of the Gospel of the Kingdom for the vast majority of humankind.
To Chuck
Nice hearing from you again. Are numbers bad? A sister once explained eternity by using numbers. She said, start with 1 and see how far it goes. If you find no number after saying it, eternity just stopped. To go the other way go -1 the same way. Yes, Jehovah always was and will be. Rev. 15:3
Note what a July 1913 W.T. said. We were surprised at so good an audience as 900, with 88 requests for further information handed in.
At Winnipeg, Manitoba…The attendance was at 3,000.
A little Later it said this.
THE HARVEST CALL
Come, labor on.
Who dares stand idle on the harvest plain,
When all around him waves the golden grain,
And every servant hears the Master say,
“GO WORK TODAY”
…Blessed are those who tot he end endure:
How full their joy, how deep their rest will be O Lord, with thee!
I think the October issue said the following. Dear Brother Russell:-Brother and Sister Rutherford have just left for Zurich. The eight public meetings were quite a success.
Hamburg..2,500
Berlin 3,000
Dresdon 1,600
Leipzig 1,500
Elberfeld 2,500
Siegen 800
Coin 2,000
Sturttgart 4,000
Total 17,900
Do you think this was bad for Brother Russell to publish this for the readers of the W.T.?
Was it bad for the early Christians to receive reports as to how the preaching was going? Was it wrong to say 5,000 got baptized in the book of Acts? Would if it said a big group got baptized. Would that make it better?
What do those fabulous numbers tell me about the preaching during Brother Russell’s day? If you are interested in what they tell me, let me know.
Hank
Hank,
You may have misunderstood my question or I may have stated it in a way it was misunderstood.
I have no problem with keeping track of how many people attend conventions. It can be used as an encouragement to others and a lot of times it is required for legal reasons such as insurance, etc.
Or keeping track of books, flyers or tracts handed out. The inventory count is necessary to know what is needed to be restocked.
What I disagree with or rather don’t understand is why I would have to keep track of each person I witness to and keep count of it and report it and have it held against me or in support of me. Am I better if I report a larger number?
I believe the parable you mentioned earlier,
“Mat. 25:14,15, “summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad.” was giving the message that it does not matter how much was given to the slave or how they used it. As long as they used it!
The report of the baptized in Acts as I see it was to show how the word was spreading and as an encouragement, not as an accounting of accomplishments. (Which I personally believe is a symbol of pride and not encouraged in Scripture.)
Then again, I am always learning and listening, so any comments are more that welcome!
In Christ,
Chuck
Hank,
Also, as a side note. You stated in the first post I responded to:
The one group hitting over a billion hours in preaching and reporting time.
The other group hitting some fairs but not reporting time.
And the last one who stayed by himself, hid it in the ground.
This is what I guess bothered me.
You seemed to be bragging about “over a billion hours in preaching” as if only one group can claim this.
You then make the statement in passing “hitting some fairs” as if it is amusing or beneath you.
I understand I could very well have taken your comments wrongly but the post came across that way thus my first post.
As Bible Students we have MP3’s, DVD’s, CD’s, videos and countless websites etc. etc. This is currently.
In the past Br. Russell put in a lot of hours in sermons both oral and in print. I do not consider him a JW by the way. They have Rutherford.
Just because big numbers are not put out there for all to see does not mean it is not done. You might want to do some research before making those previous statements. : )
Any comments are welcome.
In Christ,
Chuck
Chuck I would like to add to your comment that if numbers are what determines then the Catholic Church wins hands down. Ask any accountant, numbers can be manipulated easily. It depends on who’s agenda they should support. In Bible times Jehovah often showed it was his might not numbers that would win the battle. The three hundred is an example. One angel destroying 185,000.
The governing body claims to have over 7 million, yet they count you, me and all disfellowshipped and disassociated. Why we asked? Because they say these can come back, that does not make any sense.
For instance in my neighborhood they had to combine two congregations who numbers dropped from 150 and 175 to barely 30 and 40 often lower. They are selling all of their buildings in New York and around the world. They are combining 5 small congregation under one roof.
Now if I was selling all my stuff and closing and combining my different stores people would say I am going out of business or have a problem. Witnesses just go along and not ask questions. Many are voting with their feet however and just leaving without a word. I did that.
I visit and converse with many websites, a lot of them have inside knowledge. The rebranding might fool some people who aren’t aware that these are still the same Jehovah witnesses and I imagine the money will still come in. I think they are smart from a business standpoint, it is done all the time. One video that I posted earlier shows them dancing to a “wordly” song in the kingdom Hall during this international convention season. Socially this will keep many in if they lighten up a bit.
This site however is for those that want spiritual things. My young adults like the organization telling them exactly what to do and they do no more. lol One elder asked me what was my point as long as he did what they told him if it was wrong the governing body would pay. I gave him a hug, what else could I do he was an elder saying this.
I like your comments about numbers. As Bible Students we simply help as you said. We don’t need to write up a report to an org. It’s about Christ and God’s kingdom. Nice hearing from you.
To Jacqueline
I judge know one. The account of Jesus is a illustration. It was given to him by his Father which he shared and his Father had it written down for whoever wants to read it.
It is simply a bible discussion. Where people share thoughts. Was any body sent to a burning hell by my comment? No.
Was Brother Russell wrong for having colporteurs? No. Why he said a person could get them for $2.25 for six volumes.
Was that bad people had to pay his colporteurs money to get them? No.
And he said, “We invite Cristian people of all denominations to join us in the work of extending these “helping hands” to the rising generation.”
Hank
I will not be lead along with your diversionary questions. My purpose was to let our readers and posters know that some answering them might be apologists and take the subject in a direction away from the Bible or muddy the waters. I am basically done as you and I go thru this whenever a meaningful discussion gets underway. By the way IT guys for Bethel follow many of the sites and they sometimes will employ tactics on other sites we have talked to them in podcasts. Take care Hank
To Jacqueline
I have never heard of the GB appointing apologists. And rest assured I have not nor do I consider myself one.
The person for whom the discussion was made would simply have to make a choice of three things.
1. BS,s
2. JW,s
3. Neither
The first two have literature, the last one can let you worship with your Bible or have no printed form of any kind. And the first two groups have Jesus becoming king at different dates. So, this was another issue of that person. Tried to reason with the person, showing some faithful without paper and writings, but the most with writings.
Abel, possibly one of less than a hundred people living on the earth. Would there be a need for paper?
Enoch taken away, no mention of any other good people, so no need of writings, and Noah, who was a preacher of righteousness, that big ark told the story of what was coming.
But last night I though about one of Jesus illustrations.
Mat. 25:14,15, “summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad.”
Because I try to be a positive thinker and my God desires all to attain to repentance, I try to think that way as best as I can. So how did I see this?
Of the three choices in the illustration, it covers all three choices.
The one group hitting over a billion hours in preaching and reporting time.
The other group hitting some fairs but not reporting time.
And the last one who stayed by himself, hid it in the ground.
The one who hid it in the ground, loses the joy of sharing.
The other two groups have the joy of sharing their faith in Jehovah God and his Son. They choose to do so in different ways.
So what would happen to those who get saved and find themselves on earth at the beginning of turning the earth into a paradise? Again with my positive attitude, I would see them rejoicing like Moses.
Some might say, no way. But think about it. Moses thought he was going into the promised land, but he didn’t. Did he curse God? No, he did not. Did he have a knowledge of the promised land? Yes, he saw it from a high mountain and so he new their really was one. Would those who thought they were going to heaven, but didn’t, also have that knowledge in the new world? Yes, they would know they saw the promises of those written in the Bible. But now new scrolls were being opened and it was time to move on.
Hank
Thankyou once again Hank for your input & all the scriptual references you brought out. It is appreciated. All I want is the TRUTH! I do see good in both groups, one thing I I though about though is the recording or hours etc, I cannot find a scriptual reference for this act, I am not saying that there isn’t one but I cannot find one. Also should announcements be made of one individuals hourly acheivements & glorify this infront of that that cannot possibly match it, I know that some feel very sad that they cannot do as much, I know that pioneering is should be commended but surely it should be a private thing between that individual & Jesus & Jehovah?
Hank,
Just a question because I am not totally familiar with JW practices (ie. reporting time).
Which is more important?
Spending your time keeping track of your time or spending your time spreading our Lord’s message. Your post seems to put more importance on the reporting the JW’s do and putting them ahead of the Bible Students because they don’t.
In my experience, I have reached quite a lot of people with the truth message, especially those calling themselves atheists. They love the message and maybe someday they will recall being informed of it with interest. I am not aware of anyone that has been approached by a JW that has fond memories of the meeting. Again, that is just my experience. I HAVE been myself “hounded” by a JW to attend their meetings. NO talk of scriptures, just needing me to go to meetings. (He even mentioned he was being shunned and this would help his case!)
As a Bible Student I never “hound” anyone and they realize and appreciate it. Quite a few have come back to me asking to hear more.
So, again, why is it so important to keep records of time making that a priority rather than just spreading the truth message? For the most part, JW’s have the truth.
Hank on whose authority do you set 3 choices before another believer in God. You can’t give complete info about JW as you don’t seem to understand all of their requirements or recommendations. There is no scripture evidence for using just door to door, reporting time is a corporate type of thing. The ecclias were called companies and publishers in the first inception under Rutherford. The keeping track of the magazine placments and the amount of time required to do this is what all good corporations do. I speak what I know, my parents were under this and my mom was the book servant. I remember when the south changed over to this now as we were still under the first rules because of segregation so I lived it.
You can’t give complete info about the Bible Students as you are not in association with them.
Your other point three that You are laying out is his decision he seems intelligent.
You say you didn’t know they “Appoint” apologist, a play on appoint.
Daz supposes that you are here to help him, he isn’t aware that your tactics have been to come on when someone strong like Brettstone with really sound questions and Br. Peter answer them with reason, you muddy the waters with your jabs. You sometimes seem like a “Rock” hidden beneath the water to cause shutdown of meaningful dialogue.
You assign the sluggish slave to Daz if he chooses to study on his own. You do the judging and assign the watchtower (JW) as the first slave. You judge and assign the 2nd slave to the Bible students.
Who gives you the right to do this to people that are trying to decide. These are shutdown choices. I make this clear to couples sometimes when they come for council.
I follow and look at your comments and tactics. You could attack or you can use seemingly reasoning to accomplish your shutdown tactics. You seem to be using the latter now.
Daz is not aware you do this often but I am.
It, your tactics are your way. But they are slick shutdown tactics of an apologist for the Jehovah witness organization and because you judge each group you have assumed the role of Christ. Jacqueline
Hi, Jacqueline,I need to express my thoughts on an incident that took place, I did think of leaving it,but after reading your comment to Hank I Thought it needed addressing.
My flogging was pretty real after reading your comment on Hank, it put a bad taste in my mouth regarding to the site.
I was impressed with Peters response to Brettstones questions, and your welcome to him.
I read one of the comments made from Hank to Daz on 1914 asking him which side he saw himself on, then I realised i had not got it wrong on his comment to me, opening with Mat 24:36 and putting me in my place, with associated scripture and then to deny it happening on pointing it out to him, as though it was something positive he had done, and i was mistaken.
With thanks
Christian love to all on the site
Victor this happens as some will come on a site that is seeking to help and take it in different directions. On a phone hook up ecclias even an elder could not find Brettstone and Br. Peter”s discussion to follow. We had quite a number of people following them as Brettstone was asking questions as one xjw elder called me and said, exactly what he wanted to know. Others will feel free to comment and they think it is a Bible Student answering them but it isn’t and from time to time I feel compelled to let them know because I get text and calls asking what is going on and this indicates even these persons are confused.
All have the right to comment here but I think it is only fair that they know who they are talking too.
Hank and I go thru this from time to time. I do have to give him prompts however he is persistent and on it whenever a good dialogue starts and Br. Peter answers.
I enjoy dialog with Hank to let him know as a psych practitioner I see what he is doing. It is a basic form of smokescreen to take readers in another direction with little statistics which by the way numbers are easily manipulated. It will also make hurt and timid JW not comment on the site as they see and perceive that there is a witness on here.
Our desire is to honestly help ones who have on their own come out of the witnesses and need a spiritual place to land until they can get on their feet.
I hope my honest and open dialogue to Hank will be accepted in the spirit in which I present it to let persons know who they are talking too, it is out of love for the posters here.
Hank can take it, we do it all the time.
To Jacqueline
Please read Brother Russell’s WT,s starting Oct. 1916 and going backwards. Many results of the Preaching work come in from around the world. I have always enjoyed reading them from Brother C.T. Russell.
Have a great day.
Hank
I bought the CD from the Bible Students at a fair years ago. It had all the WT,s from I believe 1877-1916.
Hank I am sorry I came on as anonymous I was traveling today and used my cell phone to type. I changed your responses to me. Hope I was accurate.
Concerning the Rebranding: The society now wants to be known as JW.Org, these are the signage on their buildings I am told (will check this month when in New York). Other discussions indicate and my family tells me they are to direct to that site. Business people recognize Rebranding to be effective in at least 20 years persons will not google Jehovah witnesses but jw.org and all of the negative publicity will not come up in the search engine. Maybe not in your area but in mine and other places the door to door has been a harassment and the killing of innocent women and children with the blood doctrine has created a stench. One local elder advised the group to just walk the territory and not knock on the doors. I brought it up because you quoted a statistic of 1 billion hours with not supporting documents nor what is actually done. I admit in times past many became JW from the door to door, today they are called born-ins that are getting baptized. You can just sit at the baptism to see this.
And I guess I also spoke because you speak for both groups. I know the governingbody is very careful with whom they allow as an apologist for them.
My intentions is not to be unkind but to state the truth. Some discussions have to hold to an element of truth. I normally speak of personal experiences I or family have had or that has been told and verified to me. Jacqueline
To Jacqueline
Daz has stated he is a person with an open mind. Whether he follows group one or group two or neither, it is a discussion.
But your last sentence may cause him to lean towards group two, unless you want to take it back. For I discuss with people from group one on many things and they don’t treat me that way. Have learned things from group one.
Note another identifying sign Jesus gave. Diaglott John 15:18, “If the world hates You, you know That it has hated Me before you.”
Diaglott John 17:14, “I have given thy word to them, and the world hated them.”
Hank
To Daz
Your words on a post, “I am very open to discussions.”
So you can listen to a Bible Student or a Jehovah’s Witness. And you said, “But I do question whether Jesus did in fact arrive.”
You are going to find a dilemma with both parties answers. Why? The first group believes he arrived and became king in about 1874. The second group believes he became king in 1914.
You might say I can pick one easy. Another dilemma. The first group will encourage you to read the six volumes of Studies in the Scriptures. The second, their publications. Both go against your independent Study.
But you words, “and humble enough to take truthful direction.” So lets look at some who maybe had no literature or Bible.
Heb. 11:4 speaks of Abel as being righteous.
Heb. 11:5 speaks of Enoch for he had pleased God well.
Heb. 11:7 speaks of Noah says he became an heir of righteousness by faith.
Heb. 11:8 speaks of Abraham and in verse 11 his wife Sarah.
Heb. 11:20 speaks of Isaac.
Heb. 11:21 speaks of Jacob blessing.
Heb. 11:22 speaks of Joseph and then the next verse speaks about Moses.
Hear I am sure you will agree God’s inspired writings started to be recorded and were good for those who followed those written things. But people did question them, and people went against them. Causing many to lose their lives.
But why might we think that writing started before the Bible? Check out the Abydos Tablet. Where about 120 years before Moses was born Seti I matches several names of what Moses wrote about 240 years later.
So I would like to use a few Bible accounts to let you reason on how God showed light to people. The first in the book of Acts. “He had gone to Jerusalem to worship.” Did he get his questions answered there by the religious leaders? Apparently not for the account continues, “and was siting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah.” Note what happened, a Christian came up and asked him if he new what he was reading. How did he reply? Did he say I just came from worship and don’t need any help? The account says, “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” He sure did not refuse the person but invited him to sit down and talk.
Note is want to understand, “I beg you, about whom does the prophet say this?” After it was explained to him, did he say you are a sinner and I don’t need your interpretation of the Bible? No, he got baptized and the account says, “but he went on his way rejoicing.” Acts parts of chapter 8.
What did we learn? Read the Bible, even if we do not understand. Because if we truly are humble and read with faith, God knows how to draw us. John 6:44 Chances are we won’t be in a chariot.
Why can we be confident that God will get the truth to us? “How in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? I am not sure how many hours group one puts in a year, but I think group two is getting close to two decades with over a billion hours a year preaching.
Hank
Hank, I think you mean a billion hours knocking on doors and doing some preaching.
I never had this much discussion as a witness and i was a pioneer . we also. have many come to our fair booths and the many other avenues.
also ministers get as many as 50 sermon packets every time I work the state fair . So even other denominations will listen. As a witness we did a lot of repelling and forcing baptism especially on young ones . Some as young as 8. You are violating your organization rules also. Where is the comment. section on jw.org? Rebranding means the governing body is abandoning the title Jehovah’s witnesses because it has become a stench in the nostrils of most families .
Luke 21:24 Jesus shows what? “until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”
Ezekiel 21:26,27, “‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown…And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.'”
Re. 6:2, “and a crown was given him.”
Ezekiel showed the crown or kingship was being temporarily removed from the one God. But God would give that crown to whom he wanted at a later time. When the Revelation from God came, Jesus had been in heaven for 63 years. And that vision was for the future.
One simple way to know why it was future, is John showed 5 have come one was when he was living and one was yet to come.
So the questions arise. Is it something that would get mocked? Would people question it? Would people be totally blind from seeing it.
Consider these Bible verses.
2 Peter 3:3,4, “First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come.” Stop for a moment, and ask. What is their sales pitch? Continue, “with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?”
What does that cause? Jude says, “following their own desires for ungodly things.” “These are the ones who cause divisions.” Jude 18,19.
Would any of us want to be a scoffer or ridiculer? Hopefully not. But if we are in danger of being taken in by one, then consider the prophet’s words. “That he may do his deed-his strange deed-And that he may carry out his work-his unusual work. Now do not scoff, So that your bonds may not be further tightened. For I have heard from the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, That an extermination has been determined for all the land.”
Will we be a scoffer? Or will we listen and be taken in by a scoffer? Or will we head the warring?
Hank
To Daz
I wish I could tell you things in my own words. But my words don’t have much value.
For example, Daz, worship God. In the world we live in that is good advice. But in the world we live in everybody does it in one way or another.
That is why Scriptures is what are my preference, because it is not me speaking but the one who inspired them. So if it were possible for me to tell you things about you or me or someone else, then it is for the most part not that special. We are all just people who make mistakes.
Do we stay positive? What a wonderful day today. Or negative? The air, the food and the water are polluted and getting worse by the day.
What ever meets are flavor. This is probably putting you to sleep so I will sign it away.
Hank
Hi again Hank, true words spoken, I agree with you, the scriptures are all that we need to guide us, all we need is in there it’s just a case of searching & finding.
Thank-you for replying Hank, oh & no your wordswere not putting me to sleep lol as I appreciate all omments & opinions 🙂
To Daz
Dan. 12:9,10, “Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.”
If the end came tomorrow, which group would you be in?
Hank
Hi Hank, thank-you for your reply, great scipture used, in answer to your question,I would hope to be in the group that are refined & have the wonderful insight. As I said, I am just trying to find my way, to find the real truth. I have a very deep love for Christ & Jehovah & just want establish the right standing with regards to them. I would very much like to hear in your own words-opinion regarding my post, thank-you once again 🙂
I find this topic so very interesting & important, I must give accolade to many of your answers & reasonings especially Peter & Jerome. I do believe that 1914 is a very significant date as so many world changes happened during & after I used to believe what the Watchtower taught regarding Jesus’ return & him handing over his belongings to the faithful & discreet slave but I am not so sure if that is the case now. I do feel that no man should say or prophesy dates or times regarding this as Jesus clearly makes it known that neither he nor the angels in heaven know, only the father, he also makes it clear that many will come with false phropecies regarding his return but be sure that we are notmislead by these ones. Could it be that the “apostacy has to comes first” & “judgement starts with Jehovah’s house”, I feel that this is happening now as many truths & untruths have started materializing & surfacing regarding the organization & of late it’s strange reasoning & behaviour in certain areas. This cleansing surely needs to take place first before Jesus hands his belongings over to the faithful & discreet slave? I do not mean to undermine anyones views on this as I am no authority & just a mere independant bible student & still learning myself, everyone’s replies to my post are most welcome 🙂
Daz – Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on the FJW sight. As you will note from the passage quoted by Hank in Daniel 12, Daniel speaks about time prophecies – 1290 days/years and 1335 days/years. Then Daniel says, “the wise will understand.” So it looks like Daniel taught that time prophecies were a good thing. In Daniel 9 he provides the 70 Weeks prophecy that shows that 483 years (7 days/years x 69 weeks) brings you to AD 29 when Jesus was baptized (start date is 454 BC command to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem).
The problem with time prophecies is when future dates are confidently predicted and then never come to pass. Most of the time prophecies referred to in the Studies in the Scriptures (volumes 2 & 3) were NOT future date predictions. They were in fact applications of time prophecies that had already been fulfilled in the past. So in this regard, CT Russell cannot be accursed of being a false prophet predicting futures dates. At worst he can be said to have been mistaken in his application of historical applications. In my opinion he was right on.
The only place where CT Russell might be accused of being a false prophet is in thinking for a while that the 144,000 Bride of Christ would be complete around the time of 1914 or shortly thereafter. However Russell expectect many things to happend around the time of 1914. Many of these things began to happen and some did not. So Russell’s problem was that he OVER EXPECTED what would happen, just like Jesus’ disciples over expected what would happen when 69 Weeks ended and Messiah appeared. Jesus did not defeat the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom as expected. As a matter of fact, even as late as Acts 1:7 the disciples were still asking Jesus, “Will you at this time set up the Kingdom in Israel.” But it was not for them at that time to know the times and seasons. The book of Daniel would be unsealed at the time of the end and “the wise would understand.”
Hi Peter, thank-you kindly for your insight regarding this subject it is much appreciated. I have great repect for CT Russell’s teachings & reasoning, I feel that once Rutherford took the lead regarding the Watchtower things began to get a little distorted. I do understand completely what you are saying & I agree & yes it makes sense that things would become more apparent as we draw closer to the times in question. But I do question whether Jesus did infact arrive & hand over his belongs in 1914 – 1919 especially regarding some of the untruths & particular doctrines & rules that come into questiong within the organization, surely if Jesus had given his belongs over to the faithful & discreet slave back then then the Watchtower organization would be clean & unspoiled? Could it not be that the governing body might be the evil slave misleading the many? Judgement has to start with Jehovah’s house, could that not be what is in progress now? As I said in a previous post I am still learning & trying to put all the pieces together. I now study independantly now & not with a Jw or watchtower magazines. I am very open to discussions & humble enough to take truthful direction from those who may have a more of an indepth understanding of the scriptures. I just want to learn the TRUTH.
Thanks again Peter 🙂
Daz,
Thanks. I understand what you are saying.
You said, “I do question whether Jesus did in fact arrive & hand over his belongs in 1914 – 1919 especially regarding some of the untruths & particular doctrines & rules that come into questiong within the organization, surely if Jesus had given his belongs over to the faithful & discreet slave back then then the Watchtower organization would be clean & unspoiled?”
1 John 4:1
New American Standard Bible
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
Regan said, ” trust but verify.”
1 Thess 5:21 (NASV) ” But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;”
If we simply trust without questioning, we are in trouble. If we trust after verifying and proving by Scripture, that is more safe.
Imagine if we were a Catholic and we trusted everything the Pope and the church sad since they were God’s authority. How could you ever find out they were mistaken if your mind was closed?
Imagine we were a Mormon and believed that the Mormon president spoke for God. How could you ever discover that the Mormons are wrong? Our minds would be closed.