Romans 11:1 (New World Translation)
“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen!”
Let us see how Paul continues to answer this questions in Romans 11.
* In Rom 11:7, 8 shows that the nation of Israel did not obtain what it sought. Paul goes on in verses 9 and 10 showing that their eyes were darkened so they would not see the truth.
* Paul continues his thought in verse 11 showing that Israel did not stumble so as to fall. The purpose of their stumbling is so the Gentiles would also have an opportunity to be anointed and be part of the 144,000, but even so, verse 1 says that “God has not rejected His people” Israel.
* Not only did they not utterly fall, but there was a purpose to the fall. Their disobedience was for a purpose, which is to bless all. This is where it gets really exciting! Verse 15 begins a section which shows the true purpose of Israel being blinded, and allowed to fall for a time is the “reconciling of the whole world.”
* In verse 12, Paul shows that their rejection results in the “reconciliation of the world” and their future acceptance (“fullness”) will mark the time of “life from the dead.”
* All Israel will be saved (verse 26), both fleshly and spiritual.
* Verses 25-29 is so beautiful. It shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows this that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them.
Romans 11:28 says, ” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers”
How can Romans 11:28 be speaking of anything other than the nation of Israel, when it specifically says:
1. They are enemies for the Gospel’s sake
2. They are beloved for the father’s sake
Are Christians (Jehovah’s Witnesses) enemies for the Gospels sake? I should hope not. So this group of enemies is natural Israel who are “beloved for the fathers’ sake.”
Moses told natural Israel that Jehovah loved them in Deut 7:6-8, “For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
Rom 11:29 tells us that, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” What are the gifts and calling of God to the natural nation of Israel that are irrevocable?
* God will bless all the nations of the world through them (Gen 12:3)
* They will own the land of Israel forever (Gen 13:15)
* They will eventually be planted in their land and never again plucked up out of it (Amos 9:15)
In Luke 21:24 (NASV) Jesus said, “they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Notice that the time of Jerusalem’s trampling ended in 1914 with the end of the Gentile times. WWI which began in 1914 produced the Balfour Declaration through which the British Empire set aside land in Palestine for a Jewish nation, which became a reality in 1948. So the early Watchtower (C.T. Russell) was then correct in connecting the reestablishment of the nation of Israel with the end of the Gentile Times. Here is what the early Watchtower wrote about Israel: http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/volumes/C08.asp
Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV “This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar — the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord”
Zechariah 11:11 from a Hebrew Lexicon, “And I took my staff [even] Beauty and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.”
11:11, “and it was broken in that day and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that that it was the word of Yahwe.”
Footnote on knew, “to know(properly to ascertain by seeing)used in a great variety of senses observation, care, recognition, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.”
Footnote on word, “a matter (as spoken of).”
Verse 12, “So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.”
Footnote on weighed, “to suspend or poise(especially in trade.)
Footnote on silver, “By implication money.”
Verse 13, “cast it unto the potter a goodly price that I was priced at of them! And I took the thirty the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of Yahwe.
Verse 14, “Then I will cut asunder mine other staff [even] bands that I might break the brotherhood between Yaehuda and Yisrael.”
Footnote on mine other, “Properly double, that is, second, also adverbially again.
Fottnote on staff, “meaning apparently to germinate; a shoot, that is stick with leaves on it.”
Footnote on bands, “to wind tightly(as a rope), that is, to bind; specifically by a pledge; figuratively to pervert, destroy; also to writhe in pain(especially parturition.)
Hi Hank this is Jacqueline, I noticed that Domenic mentioned you quote scriptures but that seems to be it. I was thinking the same thing as I was reading this morning. We are mostly seasoned bible readers here and to not comment or draw some sort of conclusion makes it difficult. Even the footnotes you give are right in the bible that we are reading but I for one don’t know what your point is at times. Not criticizing just sort of letting you see what we see when we read. Br. Peter had to school me once on points like that.
And by the way thanks for commenting. Christian fellowship jacqueline
Are the Jews a part of gods people, or just one of the false religions of man?
Who Are God’s Chosen People – New Foundations Ministries – Index
http://www.newfoundationspubl.org/whoare.htm Cached
The Jews also believe they have an ancient right to the claim of being God’s chosen people. But do they? … who would rule God’s people Israel.
To Peter K. and Jeff;
Great hearing from both of you. If My memory serves me right, This is Jeff who’s wife is from Romania.
The book of Zechariah is a bomb shell of a book. It has things that happened back then, plus things that happened when Jesus was put to death, and things happening in the end times, and things happening during the 1000 years, and after, I think? To cover all this would be way to long, so I will try and cover some at a time.
May have been born in Babylon, but began a little under 20 years after the return from Babylon and still being called a young man. Zec 2:4 He delivered messages which would help those getting the exiles to finish rebuilding the temple. 1:1,7; 7:1,8. About a little over two years.
We of coarse believe history in which says the temple did come to being built, so he played a role in helping.
But what about Jesus when on earth and killed? 9:9, “Look! Your king is coming to you. He is righteous, bringing salvation, Humble and riding on a donkey, On a colt, the foal of a female donkey.”
Luke 19:35,36,38. “threw their outer garments on the colt and seated Jesus on it. As he moved along…saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name.” Read Ps 118:26
How did the religious Pharisee’s respond to prophecy being fulfilled right in front of their eyes? Luke 19:39, “However, some of the Pharisee’s from the crowd said to him: Teacher, rebuke your disciples.”
Why would Jesus disciples not be surprised by the conduct of fellow offspring of Abraham. Well, shortly before that Jesus told them a parable. Please read Luke 19:11-14. Note the result as to his kingship at verse 14, “But the citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to become king over us.'”
How did Jesus feel about that comment from the Pharisee’s? Verses 41,42, “And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace-but now they have been hidden from your eyes.”
Why would these offspring for the majority have this fulfillment of prophecy hidden from their eyes? Did not the nation of Israel call Jehovah their Father? Is 64:8 And yet we find Jesus saying “I know you are Abraham’s offspring.” “You are from your father the Devil.” John 8:37,44.
Surely that explains why they did not understand the fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9. But what about the end times?
To be continued.
Thank you Peter;
Hate to make it more complicated. Zechariah 14:16, “All who are left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall come up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts and to celebrate the feast of booths.” Verse 17-19 shows some bad things happening to any who refuse to come.
Can you see how many trees will need to be cut so 10 billion people can make their own booth? And it is very unlikely we will all be flying on jets. And ships.
I am one who believes Zechariah’s writings have a much different meaning, of which eliminates this big problems.
Hank – Please explain
Hi Hank,
Obviously this is a symbolic passage. What do you think it symbolizes?
Thank you Peter;
One problem. The blessing and mercy is showing Jehovah bringing the members of Israel back to the land. That little nation when it was full size was about 100 miles long. Those who make of the nations are way bigger and more people.
“So the house of Israel shall know that I am Jehovah their God.” “And have mercy on the house of Israel.”
For 8 billion people to go to Jerusalem to worship one has to reason, that city can barely hold over a million.
So are you saying 7.9 billion destroyed, one million saved? That fits Zechariah 12:9 and Rev. 19:18-21 much better, don’t you think?
Hank – You are complicating this matter because you just can’t believe God would be so forgiving and compassionate.
The survivors of Armageddon could easily come to Jerusalem at different times of the year, not everyone on the same day.
Israel’s boundaries will extend far beyond what they are today?
Gen 15:18 – the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt [southern border] to the great river, the River Euphrates [northern border]–(NKJ)
We suggest that the southern border of Israel, here referred to as the river of Egypt, is the Wadi el Arish, now a dry river bed in the eastern Sinai (the southern border of Solomon’s kingdom).
The eastern border will include land east of the Jordan River (Isa 10:1 Edom and Moab, Zech 10:10 Gilead). This includes much of modern day Jordan. The northern border will be Lebanon (Zech 10:10)
The most complete description of the land which Abram’s seed was to inherit is found in
Deuteronomy 1:7, 8: “Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites [the Nebo ridge on the east bank of the Jordan], and unto all the places nigh thereunto [the Jordan valley, east of the river itself], in the plain[in Hebrew, Arabah, the Great Rift of the Jordan valley south of the Dead Sea], and in the hills [the Judean hills], and in the vale [in Hebrew, Shephelah, lying between the coastal plain and the Judean hills], and in the south [the Negev], and by the seaside [the Mediterranean coastal plain], to the land of the Canaanites [particularly the Plain of Sharon and the Jezreel Valley], and unto Lebanon [in the north–How far north?], unto the Great River, the River Euphrates. Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.”a
Hi Peter;
Seeing how you are in chapter 12 of Zechariah, could you explain 12:9, “On that day I will seek the destruction of all nations that come against Jerusalem.”
Ex 14:14, “The LORD himself will fight for you; you have only to keep still.”
Ex 15:3, “The LORD is a warrior, LORD is his name.”
Ne. 4:14, “our God will fight with us.”
Ps 136:15, “But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea, for his mercy endures forever.”
Does anyone think that the LORD’S mercy applies to those found at Zechariah 12:9?
Or does anyone think that the LORD’S mercy is given to certain kinds of people, and not given to certain kinds of people.
Consider carefully Satan’s words to Eve. “You certainly will not die.” Gen. 3:4
Look forward to all your comments and of coarse you to Peter.
Hank – Let your heart be opened to God’s love and mercy. You will rejoice as you see the scriptures revealing his loving kindness.
Although God destroys the nations that come against Jerusalem, it does not mean that he destroys all the people of these nations. To the contrary, the Bible clearly speakers of survivors of Armageddon.
Zechariah 14:16 ASV
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Ezekiel 39:21-23, 25-29 ASV
And I will set my glory among the nations; and all the nations shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am Jehovah their God, from that day and forward. And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they trespassed against me, and I hid my face from them: so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they fell all of them by the sword. Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for my holy name. And they shall bear their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they shall dwell securely in their land, and none shall make them afraid; when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there; neither will I hide my face any more from them; for I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah.
I did not see any Bible Verses. Rev. 10:4,”I was about to start writing when the seven thunders spoke, but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have spoken and do not write it down!”
For those who do not know what hank is saying about 7 thunders:
qowl (kole);
or qol (kole); from an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound:
1) a voice, a sound, a noise, thunder
Translated Thunder or Voice
Every time this Hebrew word “qowl” is used, it is used for physical thunder that is heard in a natural sense. For example you would hear “qowl”(thunder) and lightning. Other times when this Hebrew word is used it is translated voice. How is it that one word can be used with two different meaning? This is where it gets interesting. It is not two different meanings to God. When you see this word it means GOD’S THUNDEROUS VOICE! This Hebrew word is used by God to convey physical thunder in the natural and it is used to convey God’s thunderous voice in the spiritual. Now to teach this there must be a pattern to establish the doctrine. So God brings us to the New Testament first.
John 12:28-30
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
And there are many other scriptures with this voice.
God has never rejected all twelve tribes of Israel. He has rejected one of the tribes of Israel, the tribe of Judah. Palestine, now called, Israel, is in the control of the tribe of Judah. Judah is were the name Jew comes from. The tribe of Judah has the world believing all of Gods people, ( The twelve tribes)are Jews. The other eleven tribes have been protesting for many years that the tribe of Judah has stolen their name, Israel. It is this tribe that teaches their young, “Jesus is a fairy tail.”
As a writer, I have been gathering facts about the present day tribe of Judah…what I see is not good. It is very, very bad.
Domenic – There will come a time when the Jewish people will repent and the Apostles question will be answered.
Acts 1:6 (NASV) “So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?””
Zechariah 12:6,12 (NKJV) “6 “In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place–Jerusalem… 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”
Hello Dieter, we are at a 2 day convention but we have received your info. I will digest what you have written later . Someone else will answer also. Peace.
Hello especially to those saying ‘I want to’ as did Lord Jesus,
This is really a very simple subject unfortunately obfuscated and distorted by the apostates during the early centuries.
Jehovah, a Promiser extraordinaire, will honour all of them come what may. So, the promise He made to His firstborn Israel, (Exodus 4:11) for them (not others) to become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation He will absolutely and irrevocably keep. He would rather change the laws and statutes of the universe before Israel is not a Nation to Him always, as hinted at above.
Neither the whole of Christianity nor the Witnesses have come to grips with Jehovah’s will and purpose for the Seed of Abraham Israel to fulfil that promise Jehovah had made to Abraham them to become a blessing to all humanity i.e. all families/tribes of the earth.
To quote from the above re Romans 11:
* In verse 12, Paul shows that their rejection results in
the “reconciliation of the world” and their future acceptance
(“fullness”) will mark the time of “life from the dead.”
Cannot here launch into a lengthy discussion of Greek words, but must comment on the ‘world’ in the above reference. The world reconciled through the death of their final atonement and second Passover lamb Jesus is that very world of Israel who shall be a nation to Jehovah always (Strong’s 2889).
(That is the word used in John 3:16 and not(Strong’s 3625)
meaning the entire inhabited earth i.e. all mankind.)
To achieve that and to allow the people to whom the promises were entrusted to continue to run with them, Jesus THEIR Ransom price died in their stead -Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 9:15.
But to quote once more:
* All Israel will be saved (verse 26), both fleshly and spiritual.
Neither is true. Rather it is the original, but forgiven people Israel supplemented by other (Gentile) sheep to become completely integrated and melded with Jehovah’s beloved precious flock of Jacob, His inheritance.
Fleshly Israel will cease to exist as a recognisable tribal entity especially connected to Jehovah for blessing or curse, from the moment multi-national/tribal/racial/gender 144000 Israel have reached the destiny of existence and purpose: their heavenly places of governance, according to Jehovah’s will and purpose.
Like Noah’s Ark; no further use after it fulfilled Jehovah’s intent.
Oh, yes, all tribes of the earth will still exist on earth under Kinkgom rule, but none will ever have a special relationship with Jehovah again, since all His promises have been kept while His original purpose for humanity will forever be kept on track.
Finally, it needs to be said that everything that was in anyway connected to fleshly Israel were types or patterns of heavenly things and realities humans just cannot understand other than allegorically, including Armageddon, a heavenly battle in an antitypical Meggiddo when the wayward angels or messengers are rounded up for their 1000-year spell of inactivity. Since they will not want to go willingly, it won’t be pleasant, with likely repercussions on earth, as in fact happened when they were kicked out of heaven in 1914.
May I strongly suggest to explore everything under the Israel menu button and submenus at http://www.sanctifyname.com
And thank you for allowing me to submit this.
Dieter – Thanks for your carefully studied thoughts. You are indeed a student of scripture. You have some interesting comments, but it is hard for me to follow your logic. I extrapolate from from your comments that probably you do not expect a final battle against the literal nation of Israel connected with Armageddon as indicated in Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14. You seem to see Armageddon as a battle in Heaven only, not also on earth. You also seem to be saying that Israel will not exist as a separate nation in the earthly kingdom, but all peoples will be melded together with national identities discarded.
Well I can quote lots of scriptures about kings and nations coming to Jerusalem to worship Jehovah in the earthly kingdom. Not only do several scriptures indicate the current return of the Jews to Israel and establishing a nation, but they also talk about the existence of the nation of Israel in that earthly kingdom as a center of worship. I think there will be a sort of melding of the nations together in the kingdom in the sense that Jehovah makes the New Covenant with the nation of Israel and the other nations come to Jerusalem to be incorporated under the New Covenant umbrella.
Now if you want to argue that after the 1,000 years and in the ages to come that there will be no distinction of nations, I won’t argue with you, but I am really not familiar with a scriptural case that can be made for this.
More on Israel can be found by clicking here: