Romans 11:1 (New World Translation)
“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen!”
Let us see how Paul continues to answer this questions in Romans 11.
* In Rom 11:7, 8 shows that the nation of Israel did not obtain what it sought. Paul goes on in verses 9 and 10 showing that their eyes were darkened so they would not see the truth.
* Paul continues his thought in verse 11 showing that Israel did not stumble so as to fall. The purpose of their stumbling is so the Gentiles would also have an opportunity to be anointed and be part of the 144,000, but even so, verse 1 says that “God has not rejected His people” Israel.
* Not only did they not utterly fall, but there was a purpose to the fall. Their disobedience was for a purpose, which is to bless all. This is where it gets really exciting! Verse 15 begins a section which shows the true purpose of Israel being blinded, and allowed to fall for a time is the “reconciling of the whole world.”
* In verse 12, Paul shows that their rejection results in the “reconciliation of the world” and their future acceptance (“fullness”) will mark the time of “life from the dead.”
* All Israel will be saved (verse 26), both fleshly and spiritual.
* Verses 25-29 is so beautiful. It shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows this that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them.
Romans 11:28 says, ” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers”
How can Romans 11:28 be speaking of anything other than the nation of Israel, when it specifically says:
1. They are enemies for the Gospel’s sake
2. They are beloved for the father’s sake
Are Christians (Jehovah’s Witnesses) enemies for the Gospels sake? I should hope not. So this group of enemies is natural Israel who are “beloved for the fathers’ sake.”
Moses told natural Israel that Jehovah loved them in Deut 7:6-8, “For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
Rom 11:29 tells us that, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” What are the gifts and calling of God to the natural nation of Israel that are irrevocable?
* God will bless all the nations of the world through them (Gen 12:3)
* They will own the land of Israel forever (Gen 13:15)
* They will eventually be planted in their land and never again plucked up out of it (Amos 9:15)
In Luke 21:24 (NASV) Jesus said, “they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Notice that the time of Jerusalem’s trampling ended in 1914 with the end of the Gentile times. WWI which began in 1914 produced the Balfour Declaration through which the British Empire set aside land in Palestine for a Jewish nation, which became a reality in 1948. So the early Watchtower (C.T. Russell) was then correct in connecting the reestablishment of the nation of Israel with the end of the Gentile Times. Here is what the early Watchtower wrote about Israel: http://www.mostholyfaith.com/bible/volumes/C08.asp
Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV “This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar — the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord”
To Jeff;
1 Peter 1:11, “They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.”
Note who Peter said did this. The ones who were inspired by God to tell about this one. And like many faithful servants of Jehovah they fell asleep in death not knowing the times and seasons. But Daniel was assured he will stand up, and we can be sure he will continue serving and worshipping Jehovah God.
But at some point in time men realized that 7 times 360 equals 2,520 and that a time is used in the sense of a year. Did mankind hide this from the people? Well, about 9 million people saw parts of the Photo Drama starting in January of 1914 alone. Plus Pastor Russell proclaimed it for 28 years in advance. Millions more during those years were reading about it.
But what happened? Was not the enlightenment much like when John the Baptist was born? During those 28 years not that many were truly worshipping Jehovah. And when it came all those who had been reading about it stayed in their churches and joined the war and even went against the bride class. But for the little group of faithful ones they new it was right on the money so to speak. Something that Jesus, Luke, John, Daniel, Ezekiel and Moses had wrote was finally starting to be understood. And wouldn’t it make sense to have it happen shortly before it happened, not like in the year 400 C.E. OR 1200 C.E. during the dark ages with no printing available so the whole world could read about it coming. But it was just to easy to read about it, then have to do any thing about it. Just stay in Christendom and all will be fine. Many, many, people lost their lives in that war alone. It changed the world as the world was then known. Lev. 26:17,18,24 and 28 mention seven times. That threat of punishment was mentioned three times. And eventually the crown was removed. When Ezekiel mentioned that the crown would be removed, he also stated that it would not be replaced until he comes who has the legal right to it. Ez. 21:25-27
So Jeff, could you tell me who was made king in Israel in 1914 and was sitting on Jehovah’s throne? “I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21
When Jesus showed up on earth what did that nation of Israel do? Did they not despise and reject him?
And isn’t it true that at his resurrection Jesus would d indeed bless Israel first, but not fleshly Israel, and many are not even Israelites that make up that Israel? Rom. 9:6
And wasn’t it a false interpretation to say, “there “reign” of righteousness over the world can date only from A.D.1914-whwn the Times of the Gentiles have expired?
Numbers 14:33,34; Ezekiel 4:1-8; Daniel 9:24-27; 7:25; Rev. 12:14;13:5;12:6: Daniel 4:16,23-26; 4:32; Luke 21:24; Ezekiel 21:25-27. All verses used by the Pastor in Vol. II
To Jeff;
On your opening with 14:2,3, Started in 1914, against the members of the bride of Christ who were then called Bible Students until sometime in 1931, which they were then called JW,s. All faithful members of the bride class will finish their earthly lives before Armageddon. Rev. 7:9-17 shows a great crowd being saved at the great tribulation. Now I desire all to attain to repentance. And Jehovah God and his Son will do the, who makes it, and who doesn’t make it choice.
Next you jump all the way to 14:16. The ancient festival of the booths, the feast of the ingathering of the redeemed ones of the nations, peoples and tribes of mankind to the worship of the King, Jehovah, at his spiritual temple. This will take place during the thousand year reign. Keep in mind all of spiritual Israel has now been raised to heaven to be with their husband to rule as kings and priests. Rev. 20:6 The survivors of Rev. 7:9-17 and all who get a resurrection to life on earth make up those who will be celebrating. They will have to recognize the heavenly Jerusalem. They will receive a “pouring rain” of divine blessings.
As to using Nelson Barbour, him And C.T. Russell parted ways. And you mentioned E.B. Elliott, a British clergyman mentioning 1914 as a possible date for the end of the Gentile Times. That was 1844, even before Pastor Russell was born. But wait, in 1823 John A. Brown came up with the calculation of 2,520 years in length, but was not sure of beginning and ending dates. And in 1849 Robert Seeley of London had something on it. Again, before Pastor Russell was born.
As some like to say the light kept getting brighter.
So lets look at how the Nation of Israel treats Christ’s brother’s. Well we know what they did to Christ and his brother’s back in Bible times. Do we find that nation listening to Jesus? “Those who fight by the sword shall perish by the sword.” Mt. 26:52
And after they killed Jesus Jehovah God gave to his Son the Revelation which his son passed on and it would be for the slaves of God. Some say it is for the nation of Israel and not spiritual Israel. Lets look at the results.
Rev. 13:10,”If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword.”
Do the members of the bride class have atomic bombs, and guns, and go to was and kill and be killed? No! Does the Nation of Israel? Yes!
Rev.1:1,”A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him.” Those words are right from God himself. How can anyone think God will bless those who go right against his word? He backed he Son’s statement up from Mt. 26:52
So the question comes down to each one of as individuals. Who do we want to believe. And Jesus said to a group of people, “and if you are willing to accept it.” Mt. 11:14
We all have a choice of going against or supporting the remnant of spiritual Israel. Yes or no! Nothing complicated.
Hank…Zechariah 14:16 states specifically that the nations which attacked Jerusalem would kill your dear to worship the king. this is during the millennium as you say, but it is a throwback identifying the natIons as the same ones which attacked Jerusalem.
As for light getting brighter I must disagree with you on this subject as the passage does not say the light gets brighter but rather the way of the righteous gets brighter into the perfect day. The next verse states the wicked way is darkness. The contet goes on to describe that way as one of improving character, not doctrine.
As for the JWs pointing back to Pastor Russell as being.g right about 1914, it is strange to me because he did not at all suggest that Jesus would return then….only that Israel would return. He made a wrong assumption about it being the end of the Gentiles completely, but he wasr ight about it being the end of Gentile rule over Israel.
What boggles my mind is that current wt literature mentions the 1260 and 2520 in the same sentence,e but interprets one as.years and the other as literal days even though they are both in the same book of Daniel. I am not sure why that question came up recently but I find it interesting to ponder.
Wow…please forgive my phones auto correct. If there is a question on what I meant please let me know.
Westcott and Hort, “and having found he led into Antioch. It occurred but to them and year whole to be led together in the ecclesia and to teach crowd sufficient to style divinely and firstly in Antioch the disciples Christians.”
Diaglott, “It happened and them a year whole to assemble in the congregation, and to teach crowd great, to have been styled and first in Antioch th disciples Christians.”
He translates it like this, “And it occurred that during a whole Year they associated with the congregation. And taught a great Crowd. And the disciples were styled Christians first in Antioch.”
Acts was written about 61 C.E. in Rome. Bad names to use must have traveled fast and picked up by old anointed ones like you new because Peter wrote from Babylon about 62-64 C,E, and had this to say. 1 Peter 4:16,”if but as a Christian, not let him be ashamed let him glorify but the God in the respect to this.” Diaglott translates it this way, “but if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this name.”
Some think the heathen population may have nicknamed them Christians out of jest or scorn, but the Bible shows that it was a God-given name; they “were by divine providence called Christians.” Acts 11:26
And when Peter used it he sent it out to a bunch of areas. 1 Peter 1:1
The New Testament Eastern Text 1 Peter 4:16, “But if any man suffer as a Christian.” If it was bad to make fun of the chosen ones, Peter in no way would use it.”
How do you feel about this Peter and Jeff?
Hank,
The early followers of Jesus never called each other by the term Christian. It was not a good term. If it was not good then, why would it be good today?
How and when was the word “Christian” first used? The term ‘Christian’ was used to describe a follower of Christ in terms of the world, from the world’s point of view. The pagans at Antioch called the apostles “Christians” first (Acts 11:26; 26:28) and used it derogatorily because the apostles didn’t follow the commercial world of the pagans. “Christian” is an adjective, not a noun. The substance is not in the word “Christian”, the substance is in the heart of the man it is attempting to describe, and which the pagan user cannot see.
Christ never called himself a Christian, Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. Christ never used an adjective to describe himself. So how are we to identify ourselves then? The disciples called each other:
“brethren”, “disciples”, “apostles”, “servants”, “believers”, “followers”, “the faithful”, “the elect”, “the called”, and “saints.” We can also identify ourselves as “bondservants” of Christ.
To Jeff;
The Israel that gets attacked by the nations in Jehovah’s Day, late 1914 onward till Armageddon, are the spirit begotten remnant of the bride class. They were called International Bible Students at one time, but took the name Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1931 to set them apart from many sects also called Bible Students.
Pastor Russell who lived for two years during that time was included in the time of Jehovah’s Day. And in you look up the verses in the Bible the early bride class had a name change as a group. They were called the Way, but later called Christians. Again back then there were probably many who claimed this is the Way and by divine province changed their name to Christians setting them apart.
Have you ever bought a bag of trail mix? Lots of different things in a bag. Did you ever lay it out so you could pick out a certain kind? That’s why no doubt the heavenly Father wanted to true holy ones to stand out like stars. Dan. 12:3
So for the 7.8 million other sheep called Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are not in the bride class. But they benefit greatly from the bride class. As a matter of fact, many are still flocking to the truth at this late stage in Satan’s spiraling down world.
World Health Organization in Newspaper this morning, no antibiotics for the super bug. Of coarse most of mankind won’t take note. Which makes one ask. What will it take before people take note?
Thank you for replying Hank. I really appreciate it.
This is the issue that I have with the context in the way you present your interpretation.
“I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.” (Zechariah 14:2-3)
I gather from what you tell me that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are attacked by the unbelieving nations of the earth in the last days battle of Armageddon. It is your opinion that only the Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive.
However, the context of the passage continues.
“Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King….” (Zechariah 14:16)
If I understood you correctly before, you stated that it would be the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are these nations that will go year to year to worship the king.
However, according to the context it is these unbelieving nations that go to worship. Certainly you do not classify the Jehovah’s Witnesses as unbelieving.
If we look at this the other way around and interpret the nations of verse 16 as the nations which attack Jerusalem, then the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be attacking the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
It’s all a bit confusing to me just like the Witness interpretation of the 2520 years.
I also have been thinking about the Witness interpretation of the 2520 years recently. This number is gathered from Leviticus 25, and Daniel 4 and 5. It is interpreted a day for a year consistently with the 70 weeks prophecy which is consistently interpreted as a day for a year. It takes you 490 years into the future to Messiah which is cut off in the midst of the week.
When Br. Russell interpreted the 2520 years it was his belief that the end of that period would see the return of the nation of Israel back to their homeland. After all, it was the rule of the Gentile powers over the nation of Israel for the 2520 years (or Times). This was fulfilled and has literally happened. World War 1 resulted in the Balfour declaration by the British government of 1918, which in turn allowed the UN to accept the Jewish nation as a country in 1948. Br. Russell’s interpretation was fulfilled. . . even though it was not his own interpretation. This was given to him by Nelson Barbour who found it in a book called Horae Apocalypticae from the 1840s by E. B. Elliott. These ideas were found in many books of the time, each dating the end of the period somewhat differently. But, as the Scripture predicted, Israel is indeed a homeland. Br. Russell was right.
I forgot to add the following:
Since the witnesses dropped the nation of Israel interpretation and applied it to themselves, they lost the fulfilment of the Gentile Times and what Pastor Russell actually suggested would be the fulfillment. This is what he predicted. Very few Jehovah’s Witnesses of today know this.
To Jeff and any others;
To help make things a little easier to understand, lets remember the nays used for the bride class members of Jesus Christ. The Way, Christians, not sure area-dark ages, International Bible Students and Jehovah’s Witnesses. When Zechariah was written the only people known as God’s people were in the Law Covenant with God, as a group referred to as Israel. Sometime times Judah, and so as someone’s offspring, etc. But to make it simple lets say Israel, and lets say Spiritual Israel for the bride of Christ. The reason being so you don’t include the millions of other sheep not of the heavenly calling. Heb.3:1
When it was the Roman feet that stood on the Mount of Olives and they destroyed the temple and city, it was not half the city that went forth into exile. It was 1,100,000 killed and 97,000 taken captive. So we don’t want to confuse Luke 21:20-24 with Zechariah 14:1-4
We are talking about a city, but not in actuality to the earthly city of Jerusalem. They are addressed to a higher city. Read Heb. 12:22
So anyone would ask, how can Jehovah gather earthly nations against heavenly Jerusalem and why?
And they capture it, and pillage it, and rape the women and take half into exile. How?
Lets start back to when the last king sat on Jehovah’s throne. Ez. 21:25-27 shows the kingship would be removed, but someday would be filled again. A man over six-hundred years later said, “neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne…nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.” Mt. 5:34,35.
That might help one understand Heb. 12:22 better. Mt 21:1-43 shows an anointed descendant of King David and some shouting in favor of this one as king. But the majority did not want that one as Jehovah God’s pick, or choice. When before Pilot they screamed we have no king but Caesar. Was the divine promise going to fail? 1 Pet. 3:18 shows that one was raised to a spirit life. Shortly after being raised he presented the ransoming value of his perfect sacrifice.
The old Israel was informed. Acts 1:12-15; 2:1-36 So this one raised to heaven where he will live can be the one to take the kingship. Mt. 21:42-44 Neither old Israel or the Gentiles can dethrone Jesus Christ from his royal seat in the heavenly Jerusalem.
Remember 14:1, “The day is coming.” When we ask? It has already come. How is that? 14:3, says, it will be marked by his fighting. Ez. 38:23; Rev. 16:14 Finished at Rev. 16:16.
It began in 1914 C.E. Remember what Brother Russell said, “And just what will that mean to the Gentiles I am not wise enough to know.” But he only lived two years into the beginning time of the end. Now we approach 100 years. Will it go 120 years like in the days of Noah? Don’t bank on it.
There was away in which these Gentile nations could attack. They could attack the ambassadors substituting for Christ who were notifying the nations of the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. Why Christendom ridiculed and scorned Brother Russell and other members of the body of Christ for pointing it out for 28 years.
The persecution alienated many members away from the anointed remnant, the enemy thus took them off to exile. They began taking their wealth of influence away from them. Making their popular appeal not so popular. Banning their literature and repressing the activities of them as Kingdom ambassadors.
But there was a loyal remnant that would not give in. These would represent the ones that would not be cut off from the city. Heavenly Jerusalem anointed members of the bride class. This fight will continue until Jehovah has Rev. 16:16 finished.
Thank you Hank for what you wrote, but I was looking for more clarification on the zechariah passage we were speaking about earlier. Am I correct in assuming that you believe the Israel there are the Witnesses and that all the nations of the earth will gather against them in the last days?
Thank you for the reply Jeff;
Actually it is a little different then the way Pastor Russell explained it, but some things were a lot alike.
At Zech. 14:8,9, he show the living waters-flowing during the Millennium Day of re-establishment. Ez. 47:1-12; Rev. 22:1,2.
At 14:4, “The Day of Jehovah R5255:6 in the millennium D649 He then said, “A very great valley-the valley of blessings, God’s kingdom D652 a place of favor and protection, guaranteed by both the heavenly and earthly phases of the kingdom. The valley of mercy, between and under the care of the spiritual and human phases of the kingdom. D653 Passing through the valley of morning, they change it into a place of joy springs.” pS 64:6 d653
“Of the mountain- the kingdom 653 shall remove- from earthly to heavenly condition D653; R286:5 and half of it- the earthly half, the Ancient Worthies.” D653; R286:6 “Toward the south- to complete restitution to perfect human life.” D653
The Pastor did not discuss or write on the following. 14:,11,12,14,15,18,19,21. Thus showing the need for it to come after he finished his earthly coarse.
On 14:13 at R5604: page 7 he wrote, “We have heretofore pointed out that the great battle of Armageddon- the anti-typical one- is near- that it will quickly follow the present world-war.” Later on that page he connected Zech. 8:10, 14:14; and Ez. 38:21 as to how it would come about.
His answer for 14:16, “All nations of earth will send their ambassadors to Jerusalem.” OV 69:1,OV85:1,OV96:3
After telling about the Gentile times ending his answer as to what it would mean was, “And just what will that mean to the Gentiles, I am not wise enough to know.”
My answer as to everyone going to Jerusalem for festival of booths was. When Jesus died the festival ceased to apply. In 70 C.E. the festival was no longer held.
So it showed that it pictured the redeemed ones of the nations, peoples and tribes of mankind to worship the King, Jehovah God. This will take place during the 1,000 year reign of King-Priest Jesus Christ. He will serve as Jehovah’s High Priest like Melchizedek in behalf of all mankind.
As to only Jehovah’s Witnesses please consider the following. The early bride class was called the Way. Then I believe somewhere in Acts chapter 11 they began to be called Christians. During the dark ages there is no way to know if they were called anything for they were few. Then they were called International Bible Students and Finally Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Were any individuals better than the other? Well the faithful all become one member in the bride class with no mention of any over another.
So all those on earth will be who ever God and his Son spare from the scourges and all the resurrected ones. If any decide they don’t want to be a part of the pure worship the drought will give the same scourge effect. They will not have to all travel there each year literally. And od coarse you are aware that when Satan is let out for a little bit some will fall. Then The Devil and his angels will get what the false prophet and beast along with the small and great who followed them got a 1,000 years earlier. Rev. 21:10
Then billions of perfect people will enjoy perfect life.
Thank you Hank. Who who is the Israel of the first three verses of Zechariah chapter 14? if I understand you correctly you believe that that is the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Hank….if i understand you correctly, the survivors of the nations that go year to year to worship in jerusalem in Zechariah 14 are the Jehovahs Witnesses?
To Peter K. and Jeff;
Just a quick few verses before going to 12 billion people building booths.
Zech. 9:3,4, where it foretold the island city of Tyre to be destroyed. Done by Alexander in 332 B.C.E. And Zech. 11:12, where we know Jesus was betrayed for thirty silver pieces. And Zech. 13:7, where it said the disciples would be scattered.
So some fulfilled before Jesus, And some during and right after his death.
But one that can be discussed in the future is Zech. 8:23. No record of it happening before Jesus. But Jesus may have given a clue in John chapter 4.
We find 14:3 matching Rev. 16:4 so we know it is just around the corner in our present time. 14:7 SAYS, “And it will become one day that is known as belonging to Jehovah.” Please read Joel 3:31; 1 Th. 5:2; 2 Pe.3:10
Verse 8, “In that day living waters will flow out from Jerusalem.” Please read Rev. 21:6, 22:17
Verse 9, “And Jehovah will be king over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will be one, and his name one.” Note Rev. 19:6, “Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king!”
What a blessing coming for two groups. Right after Rev. 19:6 it says one group has been prepared for the marriage. Without explanation we know that is in heaven with Jesus and the 144,000.
But the group on earth can start drinking those waters to start to cure them and bring them back to disease free human perfection.
Then when all have attained that, living on the eastern sea and western sea, symbolic the whole earth, Rev. 20:14 will be fulfilled. How is that? Death and Hades hurled into the lake of fire. Read 1 Cor. 15:26
The heavenly Jerusalem will not be like the earthly one having bad happen to it. Zech.14:1,2. But 14:10 shows a mighty change for it. And Rev. 22:3 and Zech 14:11 shows it will be fully inhabited and populated and as if inside a city they will dwell in security.
Now for verses 14:12-21–keep in mind, like the book of Revelation, it is not in chronological order. So starting in verse 12, Jehovah’s Witnesses will take a good tongue lashing. They will go through abuse and blasphemes against that most holy name.
But it makes us shudder to think how the Bible describes what will happen to those attackers. 14:12,13.
Read Judges 7:22 and Ezekiel 38:21 it happened to Midian in the past and Ezekiel foretold it like Zechariah.
So the remaining anointed along with the other sheep take their stand for Jehovah’s kingdom, and the anointed go to heaven but the other sheep survive and are spared from the scourge.
From year to year all who are drinking the living waters from heavenly Jerusalem will celebrate the Millennial festival of booths with unspeakable happiness at Jehovah’s spiritual temple. In vision John wrote, palm branches in their hands which corresponds with the last day of the festival of booths.
I hope everyone makes it there.
Hank,
Thank you for the comment. But, you quote scriptures, and yet you say nothing. Are you using Gods scriptures as a show of knowledge? Do you not understand Gods word? Are you a Catholic priest?