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Is Michael the Archangel Jesus or is Michael just a mighty angel? Does the Bible answer this question?
We believe that a careful examination of scriptures will provide compelling evidence that Michael the Archangel is Jesus. Yet since Hebrews 1:4-14 shows that Jesus is greater than the angels, how can Jesus possibly be an angel?
The honest and sincere student of scripture will want to carefully examine the evidence.
WHAT DOES THE NAME “MICHAEL” MEAN?
The word “Michael” in Daniel 12:1 comes from Strong’s 4317 meaning, “who is like God.” Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon also agrees with this definition.
Who else is like God but Jesus Himself?
CAN JESUS BE CALLED AN ANGEL?
The word “angel” itself, Strong’s #32 is defined as, “a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication, a pastor.”
On occasion, the Greek and Hebrew words for angel simply have the meaning of messenger and do not refer to angels. Here are examples where the Greek and Hebrew do not refer to angels:
Matt 11:10 (NKJV ) “For this is he of whom it is written: “Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’” [Here Jesus is speaking of John]
Luke 7:24 (NKJV) “When the messengers of John had departed, He (Jesus) began to speak to the multitudes concerning John:”
James 2:25 (NKJV ) “Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”
Gen 32:3 (KJV) “And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother”
Many say Jesus cannot be Michael because Jesus is not an angel. The scriptures quoted above prove that the Greek and Hebrew words for angel broadly mean “messenger” and can apply to others besides angels. Jesus is God’s ultimate and supreme messenger. That is why he is called the “Logos” or the Word of God, i.e. God’s spokesperson or messenger.
Jesus is called an “angel” or “messenger in Malachi 3:1 (NKJV) where we read, “Behold, I send My messenger (John the Baptist Matt 11:10-11), And he will prepare the way before Me (Yawheh). And the Lord (Jesus), whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple (“Which Temple ye are.” 1 Cor 3:17), Even the Messenger (Jesus) of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the LORD of hosts.
In Revelation 20:1, 2 we have a great angel coming down from heaven with a chain in his hand to bind Satan. This great angel is generally accepted to be Jesus who is the one responsible for binding Satan.
Jesus is the “seed of the woman” who crushes the serpent’s head. Hebrews 2:14 (RVIC) says, “… that through death he might bring to nought the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;” Is there an angel powerful enough to bind Satan? Of course not.
Yes, it is Jesus who binds Satan. Gen 3:15 shows that the seed (Jesus) crushes Satan’s head. More broadly, it is The Christ, Head and Body who binds Satan (Rom 16:20). Jesus death’ on the Cross guaranteed Him the authority to destroy Satan (Hebrews 2:14).
IS JESUS THE ARCHANGEL?
We find the word archangel in 1 Thes 4:16 and Jude 9. It is from Strong’s 743 meaning “a chief angel,” Let’s break the word up into its two parts. “Arch” is Strong’s 757 meaning, “to be first (in political rank or power):– reign (rule) over” The other part, “angel” is from Strong’s 32, meaning, “a messenger, especially an angel.”
So how does comparing 1 Thess 4:16 and Jude 9 help us to identify who Michael is? Well we know that Jesus descends from heaven with the “voice of Archangel” and that Michael is the “Archangel.” So therefore, Michael must be Jesus. After all, I cannot have your voice, even if I can use your trumpet. So Jesus must be using his own voice, yes the voice of the archangel (meaning chief messenger – the Word of God – the Logos).
HOW DOES THE WORD “PRINCE” HELP US IDENTIFY WHO MICHAEL IS?
In Daniel 12:1 (NKJV), Michael is described as, “the great prince (Strong’s 8269)who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare Isaiah 9:6 which calls Jesus the “prince of peace” (Strong’s 8269)
Jesus is also called the “prince” in the New Testament
Acts 3:15: “prince of life”
Acts 5:11: “prince and Savior”
Remember how in Daniel 12:1, Michael is described as, “the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people (Israel).”
Compare with Matthew 2:6:
Matt 2:6: “out of thee [Bethlehem] shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.” (Micah 5:2 Governor/Ruler = Strongs 4910-6.)
In both cases Michael/Jesus is ruler over Israel. Does Israel have two spiritual rulers – Michael and Jesus? Of course not. Jesus is Michael.
In contrast, in Eph 2:2 Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”
IS MICHAEL THE CHIEF PRINCE OR ONE OF MANY EQUAL PRINCES?
The argument that Michael is “one [of many] of the Chief Princes” in Daniel 10:13 is not correct.
Notice the more accurate rendering in Young’s Literal Translation –
Daniel 10:13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;”
Albert Barnes’ Commentary: “the first.” That is, the first in rank of the “princes,” or the angels. In other words, Michael, the archangel.””
John Gill’s Commentary: “…is no other than Christ the Son of God… who is “one,” or “the first of the chief Princes””
The word “first of,” sometimes translated “one of” is Strongs 259 meaning, “a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:” This word is translated “first” four (4) times in the book of Daniel, i.e. Dan 11:1 which says, “…in the first year of Darius the Mede…” KJV. So we see that Daniel 10:13 is not indicating that there are several chief heads or princes.
The word translated “heads” or more often “princes” is Strongs 8269, the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 12:1 associated with Michael the Archangel who is the great prince.
The word “chief” as in “chief princes” is from Strongs 7223 and it means “first, in place, time or rank.”
So Michael is the first or number one prince. In other words, Michael is Jesus.
Dan 12:1 calls him the “GREAT prince” and Dan 10:21 calls him “Michael your prince.” Over Israel, God would have appointed His highest ranking prince. Right? Is there a prince that ranks higher than Jesus? Another spirit being would not have been given more responsibility and authority than Jesus.
JESUS APPEARED TO MOSES?
Paul tells us about Jesus in Hebrews 3:3 that He, “…was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.” So Jesus is the one that built Moses’ house (the nation of Israel under the Law Covenant). As the builder of the house, Jesus was the main messenger appearing to Moses at the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinia (Gal 3:19; Acts 7:53) as the Word or representative of Jehovah.
The point is that during the Jewish age, Jesus was the chief prince/messenger/angel speaking to Moses on behalf of Jehovah/ Yahweh, at the burning bush and on Mount Sinai. If Michael is the chief prince of Israel, Michael must be Jesus, the chief prince. Otherwise, would you conclude that Michael is higher ranking than Jesus? If Michael was the chief prince and Jesus was not, than how is Jesus superior to Michael? Therefore they must both be the same person.
We find more evidence of Jesus activity with ancient Israel here: Jude 5 (ESV) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
SIGNS OF DANIEL 12 ALREADY FULFILLED!
Daniel 11 brings us up to the time of the end and Daniel 12 brings us 5 signs of the time of the end:
1) Increase in knowledge (i.e. technology, mobile phones, Internet, etc.)
2) Increase in travel (cars, planes, space travel)
3) “children of your people delivered” (Israel a nation)
4) Great time of trouble (world wars, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, Mao, Hitler, Stalin, etc. murder over 100 million non-combatants last century)
5) Book of Daniel unsealed and explained (If not Volume 3, “Thy Kingdom Come,” then how is that fulfilled?)
So if this does not prove that we have been in the time of the end and that Jesus (pictured here as Michael) has returned, then what does this all mean?
Once prophecy is fulfilled, it’s meaning becomes more evident. For example, in Jesus day, people looking at Daniel 9 (70 weeks) thought that Messiah would defeat the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom at that time. Once history played out, the purpose of the Messiah became clear to Jesus disciples. In spite of the miraculous evidences, people rationalized what they knew, and then rejected Jesus.
Based on Daniel 12:4, Sir Isaac Newton concluded that some day man would travel at 50 miles per hour. Who would have imagined then, how much greater a fulfillment of prophecy would take place. The miraculous evidences today are inescapable. Perhaps the biggest underlying issue is the dramatic changes on planet earth in the past two centuries, particularly Israel restored, then the increase in knowledge & travel and for the first time in history, great trouble that impacts the whole world – not isolated geographically. Clearly God somehow has a hand in all this. Right? How else are these changes coming about? How then is it such a leap of faith to imagine that the invisible returned Jesus, God’s Chief Messenger in accomplishing this?
As is historically evident, this increase in knowledge spans every area, i.e. science, technology, medicine, agriculture, the Bible, etc. Regarding the Bible, Daniel says that at the time of the end the Wise would Understand (Dan 12:9-12). Daniel says this in regard to the 1290 and 1335 days and indicates the book of Daniel will be unsealed. This was fulfilled in Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, “They Kingdom Come.” If we are wrong, would you then say that we cannot understand Daniel today and its meaning is yet to be revealed in the future? On the other hand, if the book of Daniel is now unsealed, than Michael has already stood up. Right? If now fulfilled how, how do you think it was? Who explained the meaning of Daniels prophecies if not Brother Russell in volume 3 “Thy Kingdom Come”?
Most people make a mistake with end time prophecies, thinking that everything happens quickly, however most parables and historical prophecies play out over centuries, as in the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre, which was fulfilled in stages taking several centuries till all the prophetic declarations were fulfilled. Even the Apostles were thinking that Jesus might be setting up his kingdom in their time until Jesus told them it was not for them to know when (Acts 1:6). In Daniel 12 – When Michael Stands up in the time of the end: Knowledge increases. One source claims the world’s knowledge is doubling every two years now – http://www.digitalstrategyconsulting.com/netimperative/news/2011/06/worlds_data_more_than_doubling.php
NOW THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?
Understanding the role of the Lord’s people at the time of Jesus second presence can best be learned by a careful study of the scriptures relating to this topic. We recommend the link below as a good place to start.
To Bob and Peter;
Hope this helps. Rev 20:1-3,”angel,key of abyss,great chain, cast into the abyss,sealed it over him.
Mark 5:2,3,”an unclean spirit,and no one could bind him, no, not with a chain.” 4,”no man had strength to tame him.”
Compare the fact that Jeses had the power and in verse 19 Jesus is called Lord.
Rev 20:1,2,”great chain in hand,and bound him.” This angel had the power like Jesus.
Rev 20:3,”and sealed it over him.”
Rev 5:1,”And I saw in the hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the back, close sealed with seven seals.” God is the one on the throne.
2,”And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a strong voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to losse the seals thereof? Would there be anybody who could loose the seals?
3,”And no one in the heaven, or on the earth, was able to open the book.” Bummer! But remember the angel in Rev 20:3 could do sealing. How can this be?
John wept much. But he was comforted because he was told, 5,”the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath overcome to open the book and the seven seals thereof.” Yea!
6,”a Lamb as though it had been slain.”
8,”fell before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.’
9,”And they sing a new song,saying. Worthy art thou to take the bbok, and to open the seals thereof.”
And note in 9 they give credit to the Lamb for making them,”and didst purchase unto God with thy bllod men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests, and they reign upon the earth.”
Did it say that this Lamb madest them kingdom and priests and they will reign?
Rev 20:4 and 6 shows that to be. Then in 14 ,”death and hades were cast into the lake of fire, This is the second death,even the lake of fire.” So death has been brought to nothing has it not? 1 Cor 15:25,26,”For he must reign, till he hath put all his enimies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.” Jesus does it at Rev 20:14
Hank
Hi Peter;
On the divine nature I just wanted to make sure we agree on the fact Jesus and the 144,000 are still in subjection to God. 1 Cor 15:27,28.
There will never be any equal to God. True none of the 144,002 can never die, or sin. But they are all but one in subjection to God.
Hank
Hank – I agree.
To Bob and Peter;
Bob, first. You mentioned Michael couldn’t be Jesus cause Jesus is over the whole world. And Michael was standing for the nation of Israel at that time in Dniel about 2500 years ago. Remember after Jesus died and went to heaven John some 66 or so years later wrote.
1 John 5:19,”We lnow that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.”
Paul also wrote,”And even if our gospel is veiled in them that perish: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, shpild not dawn upon them.” 2 Cor 4:3,4.
Col 1:13-15,”who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisiblr God, the firstborn of all creation.”
The Kingdom of the Son is in conflict with the god of this world. As king ,Jesus watches over those worshipping his Father Jehovah. John 4:22 says something to the effect, the Father is looking for such worshippers. And when Jehovah shows them the truth because they take in knowledge of the Father and the Son. John 17:3 They are set free from the god of this worlds false ways. Even thought they are walking and surrounded by billions of those in total darkness.
So as Michael was over fleshly Israel, Jesus is over spiritual Israel.
Now for Peter not divine nature. If Jesus has it, likewise the 144,000 will have it. What is that? 1 Cor 15:27,28,”it is evident that he excepted who did subject all things unto him. And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
Hank
Hank – I don’t understand your point for me???
Hi Bob;
Diaglott Acts 3:15,”and prince of life.” West Cott and Hort,”chief leader.”Both have a seven letter word.
The site you gave me at Daniel 12:1,”Michael the chief the great.” AVS 1901,”Michael stand up, the great prince.”
Acts 5:31,”a prince and savior.” Diaglott West Cott and Hort,”Chief Leader.”
1 Peter 5:4,”of the chief-shepherd.” WCH Diaglott,”chief shepherd.” A match with both translaters.” AVS 1901,”And when the chief Shepherd.”
Diaglott,”leader.” WCH,”chief leader.” Heb 12:2
What is interesting is Acts 26:1o the Diaglott renders it high-priests.”AVS1901,”chief priests.” WCH, “chief priests.”
Oe last one Heb 2:10,”leading the prince of salvation.” Diaglott. WCH,”having led the Chief-Leader.”
Hank
Hank, Dan 10:13 describes Michael as “one of…” Jesus is never described as “one of” anything, he is the ONLY begotten Son of God.
The argument that Michael is “one [of many] of the Chief Princes” in Daniel 10:13 is not correct.Notice the more accurate rendering in Young’s Literal Translation –Daniel 10:13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;”The word “first of,” sometimes translated “one of” is Strongs 259 meaning, “a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:” This word is translated “first” four (4) times in the book of Daniel, i.e. Dan 11:1 which says, “…in the first year of Darius the Mede…” KJV. So we see that Daniel 10:13 is not indicating that there are several chief heads or princes.The word translated “heads” or more often “princes” is Strongs 8269, the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 12:1 associated with Michael the Archangel who is the great prince.The word “chief” as in “chief princes” is from Strongs 7223 and it means “first, in place, time or rank.”So Michael is the first or number one prince. In other words, Michael is Jesus.Dan 12:1 calls him the “GREAT prince” and Dan 10:21 calls him “Michael your prince.” Over Israel, God would have appointed His highest ranking prince. Right? Is there a prince that ranks higher than Jesus? Another spirit being would not have been given more responsibility and authority than Jesus.
“Over Israel, God would have appointed His highest ranking prince. Right?” Right, but His only Begotten Son is not just over Israel, he is over the whole world. Jn3:16
Bob – Jesus became the only begotten Son at His resurrection (the second time Jesus’ was begotten or created. In this case a new Divine Glorified body was created for Him). Acts 13:33 (NASV) says, “33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today i have begotten You.”
Michael is the Great Prince of Israel. At Jesus glorification, he is confirmed as the King or ruler of Israel; and yes of the who world as well. This is because, Jesus is not only the seed of David to sit on His throne, yet also the seed of the women and the seed of Abraham to crush Satan and to bless all the families of the earth.
Matt 2:6: “out of thee [Bethlehem] shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.” (Micah 5:2 Governor/Ruler = Strongs 4910-6.)
2 Sam 7:12-16: I will set up your [David’s] seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom… And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” (NKJ)
Matt 2:2 (AV) says, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?”
Luke 23:37 (AV) says “ If thou art the King of the Jews, save thyself.”
Matt 27:11 (AV) says “And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.”
Matt 2:6: “out of thee [Bethlehem] shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.” (Micah 5:2 Governor/Ruler = Strongs 4910-6.)
John 12:13 (AV) says, “Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
Matt 19:28 (AV) says, “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Br. Peter, I just want to say Act 13:33 has become real to me. I never realized that his resurrection is a begettal of Jesus. Also, since Jesus does all the other resurrections, he is indeed the only being begotten by Jehovah.
As a former witness to finally understand some of these unique points about Jesus makes our calling and hope sure. So much focus is put on the role of the governing body ruling now, that I totally lost track of who JESUS really is. Thanks.
Sr. Jaqueline – Brother Russell makes an insightful comment in an early Watchtower [R2149 : page 138]: “”God raised him from the dead,” and of this we also have witness; and this message of the death and resurrection of Messiah constitutes the “glad tidings” of the fulfilment of God’s promises made to father Abraham. This Jesus is the “seed” of Abraham, through the merit of whose death and by virtue of whose resurrection the promise to Abraham shall be fulfilled,–that in him “all the families of the earth shall be blessed” with a full opportunity of eternal life.
With his usual logic the Apostle anticipated objections in the minds of his hearers,–Could Messiah die? etc., and he proceeds to prove to them from the words of the prophets that thus it was written beforehand. Although Messiah had long existed as the archangel, nevertheless the prophet David, speaking for God, said concerning him, “Thou art my son, this day have I begotten [literally borne or delivered] thee.” The Apostle would have his hearers note that this birth mentioned referred to our Lord’s resurrection, as it is written, he was the “first born from the dead,” “the first born among many brethren.” If Messiah was to be thus born from the dead, it implied that he must first die, and hence the Apostle gives this as a prophetic prediction fulfilled in our Lord’s experiences.”
Bob – One benefit of understanding that Jesus is Michael the Archangel is that it is not compatible with the Trinity. If in His pre-human existence, Jesus had been God’s Logos/Word/Messenger/angel, then He could not be the second person of a Triune God.
The trinity can easily be disproved without degrading Jesus to the level of an angelic spirit being.
Peter, you ask questions which the bible is silent on. “Other than Michael, what angel would be more powerful than Gabriel?” I can’t answer that, the bible doesn’t say. Rev speaks of thousands upon thousands of angels and of seven spirits before the throne of God. Ezekiel saw many powerful angels around the heavenly chariot. Michael is only mentioned four times in the OT and all in the book of Daniel. However, “the Angel of the Lord” is mentioned many times throughout the OT. The bible doesn’t say who he is, though there are many theories. Malachi 3:1 (not 2:17) gives Jesus the title, “Messenger of the covenant”, Jesus had many titles, I don’t have a problem with that. How does that make Jesus and Michael the same? You said, “In my opinion, binding Him (Satan), is the first step leading up to His destruction. It makes sense to me that since Christ destroys Satan, that He first binds or restrains Him” The reason Satan is bound is, “to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.” This gives the nations/peoples a chance to come to know God and his Christ without Satan’s influence. Then they have a final choice during the little season. I don’t feel the binding has anything to do with the destruction of Satan. Jesus could destroy Satan without binding him first, I’m sure of it, since in verse 10 Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire without being bound. After quoting scriptures regarding Jesus having the keys to hell and death and the keys of David you stated, “The one with the keys is Jesus and so this angel with the key to the bottomless pit is therefore Jesus.” This is a conjecture with which I must respectfully disagree. Look at Mt 16:19, “19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” If I were to use your reasoning, then I’d have to say that the apostle Peter is the angel in Rev.20:1 and he is the one who binds Satan. I know neither one of us believes that, however it does show the danger of jumping to conclusions.
I mentioned Rev 20:4 as an example of authority given to others; my point was that in like manner the angel in Rev 20:1 was given authority over Satan.
I believe the reason the author of Hebrews makes so many contrasting remarks between angels and Jesus is because, as I stated earlier, the Jews looked on Michael the Archangel as their guardian. They put too much emphasis on him and the author wanted to contrast the difference between Jesus and angels. The book of Hebrews was written to build up the faith of the recently converted Jewish Christians in Jesus therefore the author had to prove Jesus’ superiority.
Jude on the other hand makes a clear distinction between Jesus and Michael, as far as I can tell. Jude 4, “4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord (#1203) God (#2316), and our Lord (#2962) Jesus Christ.”(YLT) When Jude speaks of the LORD (#1203) Jehovah he uses a completely different word than when referring to the Lord (#2962) Jesus. So I can’t agree with your statement, “At that time of Jude 9 (after Moses died), Jesus was not yet Lord, so the word “Lord” in Jude 9 is referring to His Father God.” It’s the same word Jude uses to describe Lord Jesus in verse 9. 2 Peter 2:11 also uses that word for Lord Jesus.
Thank you for your kind words and compliments, Peter. As always I remain your brother in Christ…
Bob – I may be too busy to respond till next week. I rush with a response and comment further some time later.
MOST POWERFUL ANGEL
Regarding the question as to who is the most powerful angel in the Old Testament, we know that Gabriel must have been very powerful to have been battling Satan on His own. However, I believe the most powerful was of course Jesus, called Michael in His pre-human existence; the one who created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews tell us that Jesus is the one who built Moses’ House, the House of Servants. Jesus therefore was the same one who appeared to Moses in the burning bush and on Mount Sinai representing Jehovah/Yahweh as His chief messenger/Logos/Word. In using scripture to interpret scripture we can get help understanding what is meant. Anyone can come back and argue that the conclusion has not been proven with a 100% certainty. So you can argue that what I just said I cannot prove. Very well. Draw your own conclusions. I am convinced well enough by the scriptural evidence.
MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT
You argue that the fact that Jesus is angel/messenger of the covenant (Mal 3:1) does not prove Jesus is Michael. However you build a straw man with this argument. The point of Mal 3:1 was to demonstrate once again that Jesus can be called an angel. Your objection was that Jesus cannot be Michael since Jesus cannot be an angel as you believe Hebrews teaches. However, clearly this objection is removed. Therefore, Jesus can be Michael.
BINDING SATAN VERSES DESTRYING SATAN
You say just because Jesus destroys Satan, doesn’t prove He binds Satan. That is true enough. All I can say is that to me it is the logical expectation that the seed that crushes the serpents head is involved in the whole process. I can’t prove it on that line of reasoning alone. However, now you are left with interpreting who the Rev 20:1 angel represents and conveniently you call Him an anonymous angel. I do believe that we generally can identify who each of the Revelation angels are. It is very convenient to argue someone has not proved there point, then not have a clear alternative with scriptural support. Bible Students tend to make very definite applications of Revelation symbol s to concrete characters that can be identified. By doing so, we put our neck on the line. However, when a better alternative is not presented with scriptural support, I do not feel compelled to change my view.
A KEY IN HIS HAND
You argue that the fact that the Rev 20 angel has a key in his hand, does not prove that he is Jesus. Again, Bible Students use scripture to interpret scripture. In the early chapters of Revelation we saw that Jesus was the one identified as having keys. It is easy enough to say that I haven’t proven my point. You can argue that on any of my conclusions. I accept by faith what the preponderance of evidence from the scriptures point to. If you don’t have a better line of reasoning on “key’s as used in Revelation, than I will stick with my view.
MY QUESTION
I guess the question I have, is that in light of everything we have discussed, how is it you are so certain that Michael the Archangel is not Jesus? Is it because to draw that conclusion, you will feel backed into a corner to accept that the evidence shows Jesus has returned and his second presence has been a realty for over 100 years?
Re. MOST POWERFUL ANGEL: I don’t understand your reasoning regarding Heb. 3:3, the author is referring to Num. 12:7, in my opinion, where it states that Moses is the faithful servant in all God’s house. At that time God’s house was Israel. However notice verse 6, again the author is making a contrast (using the word but) between the prophets of the past, this time Moses, and Jesus. If you read the context of the verses 3-6, you can see that Heb. is talking about the church that Jesus built. Compare 1Tim.3:15 and Eph 2:21-22. So while Moses was the servant of God leading Israel, Jesus is the corner stone on which the church is built. That is why Heb. 3:4 states, “God is the builder of everything.” Compare Mt. 21:33-44, the parable of the tenants with especial emphasis on verses 42-44.
MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT: The Greek word “aggelos” is simply the word for messenger. While it’s true that most times this word refers to spirit beings called angels, it is not always the case. Consider Acts 12:15, where Peter had just been released from prison and came to the door of some faithful Christians. Here the housemaid told the people inside that Peter was outside. And according to many other Bibles, (KJV) they thought that it was “his angel” at the door. However, this rendering is not reasonable. I don’t think the people in the house assumed that an angel from God, who looked like Peter, was standing and knocking at their door. Most bibles such as YLT render this word as messenger. Numbers 20:14 is a good example of the Hebrew word used in both instances, as human messengers and as spiritual messenger. So when Mal 3:1 refers to Jesus as “messenger of the covenant” that’s exactly what it means. Jesus proclaimed the message of the good news of the kingdom to the world, notice that prior Mal. 3:1 is speaking of John the Baptist who was also a messenger, paving the way for Jesus. Many versions of the bible translate aggelos as messenger when it is truly speaking of a spirit from God; this may help to provide readers a better understanding of the actual role that such sons of God play in His dealings with mankind. But the term angel isn’t a type of creature or a heavenly rank, but an assignment that may even be temporary, such as in the case of John the Baptist. BS refer to Br. Russell as the messenger of Laodicea, though he was not an angel.
BINDING SATAN VERSES DESTROYING SATAN: You say that since you don’t have any scriptural evidence that, “I can’t prove it on that line of reasoning alone. However, now you are left with interpreting who the Rev 20:1 angel represents and conveniently you call Him an anonymous angel.” First, I don’t “conveniently call Him an anonymous angel”, the bible does. Rev 20 does not name him or describe him, therefore he is anonymous. Second, you say, “However, now you are left with interpreting who the Rev 20:1 angel represents… It is very convenient to argue someone has not proved there point, then not have a clear alternative with scriptural support.” Why? Why do I, or anyone else for that matter, need to interpret who the angel in Rev 20 is? I am perfectly happy with what the bible states and don’t see the need to add to the inspired scriptures. I ask of you; why do have to know who he is? As far as I’m concerned, he is an angel from heaven, obviously powerful enough to bind Satan for the thousand years; why do you need to speculate on his identity?
A KEY IN HIS HAND: Yes Jesus is identified with having keys, the keys of death and hades and the key of David. As you said Rev is full of symbolic language. Mat 16:19 Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom and I’m sure you agree that these keys are also symbolic. So what can we make of that? Could Peter possibly be the angel in Rev 20? According to your logic, it is certainly possible; after all he has symbolic keys.
On August 22, you stated, “At that time of Jude 9 (after Moses died), Jesus was not yet Lord, so the word “Lord” in Jude 9 is referring to His Father God.” When I pointed out that Jude differentiates between Jesus and the Father, you changed your view. On August 23, you said, “Jude is referring to Zech. 3:2 where both Jesus and God are called “Lord.” When I read Zech. 3:2, I don’t see any mention of the body of Moses, I don’t see Michael the Archangel mentioned and when I look it up in the interlinear all references of Lord are to Yahweh or Jehovah. So I can’t see how you can conjecture that Jude quotes Zechariah.
You also stated in the same comments that Jesus, “He was still an angel until He received the higher Divine Nature and greater authority.” So I asked for your definition of divine being and you quoted John 5:26, “For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself [Divine Nature], in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself; [Divine Nature] – Rotherham. So at Jesus glorification, he received this Divine Nature or “life, in himself.” However John 1:4 seems to differ, “4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,”. Jesus goes on to confirm this in John 8:12, “12 Again, therefore, Jesus spake to them, saying, `I am the light of the world; he who is following me shall not walk in the darkness, but he shall have the light of the life.’” (YLT) So by the definition of divine nature, John seems to say that Jesus was a divine being at the creation of the world. As Paul states in Phil. 2:6, “6 who, being in the form (nature #3444) of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,” So to me Paul is saying that Jesus was existing with God in the divine nature, but did not consider himself to be God’s equal.
On 8/25, you said, “Jesus became the only begotten Son at His resurrection (the second time Jesus’ was begotten or created. In this case a new Divine Glorified body was created for Him).” How can John then say that God sent his Only Begotten Son in John 3:16, 18? He repeats this again in 1John 4:9. I believe Jesus was a divine being and God’s Only Begotten Son, that’s why God commanded all His messengers to worship Jesus at his birth. They were not worshiping just a perfect human, as you said, but the author (inaugurator #747 NT Interlinear) of life. (Acts 3:15) Jesus was God’s Anointed, His Christ that’s who the angels were worshipping, their creator. Although the divine and Only Begotten Son of God, he “was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death,” “Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered” (Heb. 5:8). “After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.” (Heb. 1: 3-4) “20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind ‘You are a priest forever.’” 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.” (Heb. 7:20-22) “16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” (Heb. 2:16-18) As Br. Russell stated, with his usual logic, “His position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as He is Lord of both, having “all power in heaven and earth.” Hence it is said, “Let all the angels of God worship him;” [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because He has “by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they.’”
MY QUESTION: Peter, I can ask the same of you; why are you so adamant to prove that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? What will happen to your beliefs if you can’t prove it conclusively?
Bob – Thanks for your response. I will begin to respond today and continue as I have time. You have a lot to respond to.
MOST POWERFUL ANGEL
I think we agree that Hebrews 3:1-6 speaks of two houses.
Vs. 6 – the House of Sons which Christ is the head Son over.
Vs 2-5 – the House of Servants over which Moses was faithful.
Verse 3 says that Jesus built Moses’ house of servants.
Hebrews 3:3 (NKJV) says, “For this One [Jesus] has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He [Jesus] who built the house has more honor than the house.”
Hebrews 3:3 (Young’s Literal Translation) says, “for of more glory than Moses hath this one [Jesus] been counted worthy, inasmuch as more honour than the house hath he [Jesus] who doth build it”
Hebrews 3:3 (Weymouth) says, “for Jesus has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, in so far as he [Jesus] who has built a house has higher honour than the house itself.”
So clearly Hebrews 3:3 teaches that Jesus built Moses’ House of Servants, referring the the Prieshood, Law Covenant, the prophets, etc. Hence Jesus was the angel that appeared to Moses in the burning bush (Ex 3:2) and on Mount Sinai to provide the Law Covenant and instruction regarding the priesthood (Moses’ House). Hence Jesus was the great prince (Dan 12:1) of Israel, Michael the Archangel (chief messenger or Logos or Word).
MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT
We both agree that the Greek and Hebrew words for angels can be broader than that in scriptures. That was my point in the article. Yes the word angel describes an assignment or the job description of a messenger. However, it usually is referring the angelic realm and the angelic spirit beings. That is the case in Hebrews when Paul explains that Jesus was made greater than the angels at His resurrection. Hence Jesus was not greater before that.
Mal 3:1 (Douay) says, “Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament…” This translation just helps to illustrate that “messenger” is the same Hebrew word as “angel.”
In Mal 3:1 both Jesus and John the Baptist are described as messengers (same Hebrew word for angel). Hence if the Hebrew word for angel is applied to Jesus. Yes you can subjectively argue that the word does not literally mean an angel in this case. Following your logic, why not then say that Michael the Archangel is not a literal angel. Rather He is God’s chief messenger, a higher nature of spirit being than the angelic realm. That could be true accept for that fact that Paul says that Jesus was only made greater than the angels at His resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand.
Bob – I will continue responding to your comments here.
BINDING SATAN VERSES DESTROYING SATAN
I apologize for saying that you “conveniently call Him an anonymous angel.” You are in good company with many other Christians who will take literally what many Bible Students view as another Revelation symbol. So for you, to take certain parts of Revelation literally may be normal.
Rev 1:1 (NKJV) says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants–things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,”
Rev 1:1 (Rotherham) says, “… he shewed them by signs.”
I know you agree that Revelation is symbolic as Rev 1:1 indicates. The question is, are any parts of it literal? In my opinion, the very beginning and end of Revelation may be a little more straightforward and not as heavy on the symbolism. I believe that the angels in Revelation are symbolic, often of specific characters. For example…
Rev 12:1 (NKJV) says, “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven [Ecclesiastica]; a woman [early Church in its original purity] clothed with the sun [Gospel message], and the moon [Law Covenant] under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (twelve Apostles as the official light-bearers)”
Here is an example of a Revelation verse with Bible Student interpretation of the symbols. You may agree or disagree. I don’t know. That the twelve apostles (stars) were at the head of the Early Church as its light bearers really makes sense to me. Notice that “stars” here represent human beings who are light bearers to the church.
Rev 1:20 (NKJV) says, “The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.”
Now if “stars” represent human light-bearers, then the “seven angels” here would be seven earthly men who would each be selected by God to bring messages and provide leadership for the seven historical periods of the Gospel Church described in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. You can find some more marvelous information on the seven churches and messengers here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/07/14/the-seven-churches-of-revelation/
So Bob, here is an example in Revelation where angels are symbolic of a specific characters. So I believe the same would be true in Revelation 20:1. Who else would that great angel be symbolic of other than Jesus Himself. I know you disagree; however, this makes sense to me.
Again, when interpreting symbols, I cannot prove anything 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt. A car mechanic may decide to restore an old vintage car from original car parts he is able to acquire. When done, if the car doesn’t run, he made a mistake, even if He is certain he installed the correct parts. Once replaces the bad part with the correct one and the car runs beautifully, he feels assured he built it correctly. This is true in interpreting scriptures. Not only are be microscopically analyzing details. We are also seeing how well these details fit into the big picture. My interpretations fit real well into my picture that Jesus has returned. Your interpretation fit better with your view that Jesus second presence is yet future.
This is why I tried to encourage you to look at the big picture of the signs of Michael standing up:
1) Knowledge increased (technology, science, etc)
2) travel increased (cars, planes, etc.)
3) Israel delivered (in process of – became a nation in 1948)
4) Great time of trouble (for the first time in history world wars and trouble in one spot impacting the whole world)
5) Book of Daniel unsealed (volume 3 of Studies in the Scripturs).
So to me these views fit very well into the big picture, however, not how you see the big picture.
A KEY IN HIS HAND
Do you think Peter is the angel of Rev 20:1? Of course not. Matt 16:19 is not part of a prophetic book or of Revelation. It is fine to go outside Revelation to look for help in interpreting symbols, particularly in prophetic books like Daniel. However, when we can get clues directly from the same book – Revelation – that is best. That is what I did. In Revelation, Jesus is described as the one with the keys. That doesn’t prove He is the angel of Rev 20:1 with the key, however it is evidence to support that view. Draw your own conclusion. Who do you think the angel of Rev 20:1 represents? Oh… that’s right… you take it to be a literal angel. You don’t have to interpret it. Fine. If that works for you, go with it.
JUDE 9 – MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL AND THE LORD
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lord’s since His ascension (1 Tim 6:15; Rev 17:14; 19:16) and from that perspective Michael the Archangel could not be considered Lord in the Old Testament. However, just as when God spoke to Moses through the Angel of the Lord (Ex 3:2), so Jehovah addressed Satan through His Logos or chief messenger, Michael. Hence Michael as representing Jehovah is called Lord in Zech 3:2.
This discussion is too involved to simply comment on here, so I created a separate article to pursue the topic further here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2013/08/26/michael-the-archangel-disputes-with-satan-about-the-body-of-moses/
When I have more time Bob, I will continue responding to your comments.
Bob, continuing where I left off
LIFE IN HIMSELF – THE DIVINE NATURE
The John 1:4 expression, “in Him was life” simply means that Jesus was fully alive, whereas mankind is dead (i.e. “let the dead buy the dead’ and “dying thou shalt die”). Jehovah/Yahweh is the “self-exisiting one.” Jesus in sharing God’s Diivne Nature at His resurrection became “self-exisiting too.”
You referred to Php 2:6 (AV) “Who, being in the form of God”.
The Greek has the meaning of “form, shape, external appearance.”
This word “form ” appears two other places.
Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
In this account the point seems to be that Jesus would usually change His human appearance to look different each time He appeared to the disciples.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
The word “form” here may more be describing His role as a servant.
So in what sense was Jesus in the form of God? In the sense that as the Logos, Jesus was a glorious spirit being. Although angels too are spirit beings, they were not in the glorious form Jesus had as the Logos of the Father.
WHEN DID JESUS BECOME THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON?
You asked if Jesus was begotten at His resurrection, “How can John then say that God sent his Only Begotten Son in John 3:16, 18?”
The answer is that Jesus was begotten twice as a spirit being. God created a spirit body for Jesus twice.
1) at Jesus’ creation (1 John 4:9; John 1:18; 3:16)
2) at Jesus’ resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb 1:4-5; 5:5)
Bob – I understand that from His creation that Jesus was the only begotten Son/God, that he was from the beginning far superior to all the other angels and that none of the other angels were only begotten sons, even if they were sons.
I think the problem is that you are getting hung up on the word “angel.” We really don’t know what angels are, other than that they are invisible spirits. The Bible speaks of other orders of angels, like cherubims (Ezek 10:1-9) and seraphims (Isa 6:2, 6). These may be much higher and more glorious than your average angel. Even so, Jesus in His pre-human existence would have been far more glorious than any of them in that He created them. Still, the Bible gives this broad classification of angel or messenger that applies as well to Jesus (Mal 3:1) The Bible never uses the word archangel in the plural. There is only one – Michael the archangel – the Head or chief messenger or Logos or Word of God.
Sister Jacqueline brought up a great point. Jesus could not have been immortal in His pre-human existence. Immortal beings are self-existing and death proof. Jesus as an immortal God could not have become a man and died. Jesus only received that Divine Nature and immortality at His resurrection and ascension.
MY QUESTION
You said, “Peter, I can ask the same of you; why are you so adamant to prove that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? What will happen to your beliefs if you can’t prove it conclusively?”
I will be glad to answer my question. However, since I asked first, I will wait to hear your answer.
So I have completed my response to you until I hear back.
Bob – Continuing where we left off, you continue to go back to Hebrews where Jesus is shown to be greater than the angles to demonstrate that He cannot be Michael, the Archangel. However, we have already established that Jesus became greater than the angels at His resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand. Hence, since this is when He became greater than the angels, He was clearly not greater before hand even if He was the greatest of the angelic realm. He was still an angel until He received the higher Divine Nature and greater authority.
You make an interesting point in how Jude is using the the word “Lord” and in a vacuum your logic is sound. However, in this case the logic does not hold. Jude is referring to Zech 3:2 where both Jesus and God are called “Lord.” Jude’s quote shows that He interprets the Lord Jesus to be Michael. Also, we find Jesus called Lord throughout the New Testament and since Jude is such a small book from which to draw a sample, we don’t want to conclude opposite of the rest of the testimony of NT scriptures.
A question before I reply to your comments. What is your definition of a divine being?
Bob – “Divine Nature” is a common expression used in the Studies in the Scriptures. I understand the term “Divine Nature” to refer to the condition of “Immortality” that only God and Jesus had, which they share with Jesus’ body members at their glorification.
Rom 2:7 (AV) says, “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”
Only God had this immortality or “Life in himself.” In other words, those with the immortal or Divine Nature are self-sustaining. This is different than “eternal life.” Mankind in the kingdom will have eternal life; however, they will not be self-sustaining. They will depend on food and oxygen to continue living. We get help seeing this concept in the following verses.
John 5:26 For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself [Divine Nature], in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself; [Divine Nature] – Rotherham
So at Jesus glorification, he received this Divine Nature or “life, in himself.” The same promise is to the followers of Christ who are seeking for immortality (Rom 2:7). If they faithfully eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, they will than share in this Divine Nature or “life within yourselves” as Jesus tells us in John 6:53.
John 6:53 Jesus, therefore, said unto them—Verily, verily, I say unto you—Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, AND drink his blood, ye have not life within yourselves. [Divine Nature] – Rotherham
Hence, since this is when He became greater than the angels, He was clearly not greater before hand even if He was the greatest of the angelic realm. Peter is statement supposed to make sense?
Bob – Among greatest humans it may be true that Samson was the strongest, Solomon the wisest and Einstein the most intelligent, however none of these were greater than human. In the same way, Jesus in His pre-human existence was the greatest angel, however not greater than an angel.
To Peter;
Thiught you might share this one with Bob. Luke 8:31,”And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss.”
In looking at Rev 1-3 it stops and a new paragraph starts for 3 verses and 7 picks up where three left off. In reading from seven on we see the devil up to his old tricks misleading humams. At verse 8. Now we have to keep in mind that verses4-6 show the saints in heaven. Because verse 9 shows the enemy on earth who is being mislead circleing the holy ones. POOF! Fire came down from heaven and devoured the humans on earth. I remember reading that a angel killed 185,000 in one night. Certainly God did not kill them, it said a angel did.
As we read 1-3 then 7-10, verse 3 he the angel with the key of the abyss cast the devil into the abyss, verse 7 Satan gets let loose out of prison. No doubt by the one who has the key of the prison. After the humans were destroyed in 9 it says in 10 that the devil was cast into the second death.”
No where is God mentioned. Only the angel with the key of the abyss, who twice cast Satan. Once into the abyss and once into the second death forever.
What I find interesting is Chapter 12. verse 7-9,”And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; and they prevailed not, neither was there place found any more in heaven, And the great dragon was cast down to the earth, and his angel were cast down with him.”
Michael cast Satan down and his angels. Rev 12:9
angel cast him into the abyss. Rev 20:3 angel has the key to abyss. Rev 20:1
No one else mentioned when loosed out of prison or abyss. Obviously the angel with the key. Rev 20:7
No one else mentioned again,cast into second death forever. Rev 20:10
If you went cast fishing with three people, and each caught a fish, and you came home to tell your friend in a text, would it sound like this. I went cast fishing and caught a fish, latter another fish was caught, and then another one. End of text.
Did you tell the story so it made sense?
Hank
P.S. Will the saints help Jesus cast him in the firey furnace of second death?
Hank – Thanks. Perhaps your point on Luke 8:31 is that the fallen angels recognized Jesus as the one with the authority to cast them into the abyss. Good point. This supports the conclusion that thr Rev 20 angel is Jesus.
You asked, “Will the saints help Jesus cast him in the firey furnace of second death?” I think that is implied when Paul said in Romans 16:20 (NASV), “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.”
Thanks for that site Bob;
Maybe this can help you from the site. Daniel 10:21,”only Michael chief of you.” 12:1 on ward,”and in the era the-she he shall stand up Michael the-chief the great the one standing over sons of people of you everyone being found written in the schroll and many onesnfrom sleepers of ground of soil they shall awake these to lives of eon and these to reproaches to repulsion of n and the ones being intelligent they shall warn as warning of the atmosphere and ones leading to righteousness of the many ones as the stars for eon and futurity.
If you were God and had a direct responsibility of giving life, becoming a life giver,Father to only one spirit directly. And about 3,500 years before the writing of Daniel, this only-begotten accepted to go down and become a man sometime in the future to die to buy mankind back. Would it not be reasonable for that one to be the chief great prince standing and coming for the people in the end times?
Again, thank you for that site and thank you Peter for more verses linking Jesus to the one with the key.
Hank
Hi Hank, I’m glad you liked the site I posted, hope it will help you. BTW, look up Dan 10:13 on it. Notice where it says, “Michael one-of the chiefs the first ones…” See if you can find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is described in a similar manner.
Hi Jacqueline,
You bring up an interesting point of view. Thank you for your comment. Let me share my reasoning for stating that the prophecy in Gen. will occur after the little season. Gen 3:15 uses the same terminology regarding the bruising of Satan’s head as the bruising of Jesus’ heel. I think Jesus’ bruise was when he was put to death. Because he was resurrected it could be said he was bruised in the heel, whereas Satan’s death will be permanent, so he will be bruised in the head, which is a more vital area. Rev 20:7 states that Satan will be released after the thousand years are over and therefore after the end of Jesus’ reign. However, in the scripture you quoted, 1 Cor. 15:24-28, Paul states that Jesus will reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. So I think Jesus may reign until the little season is over and Satan is destroyed thereby fulfilling the prophecy.
Hi Bob, Yes I see the reasoning you suggest and it can be reasoned that way. Br. Russell in the commentary. There can be no crushing of the evil one until the full ransom has been paid by restitution of all things. He also Christ the Church, Rom. 16:20 “the God of peace shall bruise Satan under you feet shortly.” He uses bruise. Lamentations 3: 34 use crush or bruise (although not a head) I don’t know if this is the same word and if it means to bring to and end all the works of the devil.Isa 42:3 uses bruised but it does not break. (same word? I don’t know how to do the Hebrew and greek word thing.LOL)
I think back to the situation that is to be restored in Eden. Man back answerable and in relationship with God, Jehovah. Jehovah issued the punishments as he was the one Satan said was lying. This bruising or crushing to me is the works of the devil that happened in Eden and Jesus and the bride will abolish every molecule of wickedness.
I just don’t think the bible clearly says whether it can definitely be Jesus coming back after the thousand years has ended when it will be God dealing with man and Satan, having the power to put in Gehenna.
It is not a salvation issue but it seems Nave’s, Cruden, Strong’s exhaustive and so many bibles use the word bruise in the head rather than crush. Jesus brush was o so slight but a head bruising might cause so mental problems. Which I would not doubt as he is crazy to come out of the seal of the abyss fighting such a power.
This is just me thinking and for the first time in 40 years having someone discuss any thought not believed by the society.
It is not a salvation point however as Revelation will wrap around and meet Genesis soon.
I’ll comment further when I have time. Meanwhile try this website.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
It has both Hebrew and Greek interlinear.
Thanks we are on the Wednesday night study now.
Thanks for replying I am just beginning to study straight from the Bible and use books as another thought in my personal study. Then I have my SITS with the group.
To Jacquelin;
Not you but someone who comes up with a bright idea by saying bright star and star are differnt. Two things.
1.Nu 24:17,”There shall come forth a star out of Jacob.” Not Hollywood!
And becoming a morning star should be on the minds of all who claim to be consecrated. Rev 2:28,”and I will give him the morning star.”
Hank
To Jacquelin;
Truth is in the Bible, understandings are in the volumes.
So don’t sell yourselve short. For when you are ruling with Christ the vicar of Jehovah you may very whell asist in destroying Satan.
Vol VI pages 398 and 399,”This judging will be in part as Mediator during the Millennium.” You agree that is going to be Jesus and the 144,000?
“and in part as Jehovah’s vicar, or represenative, at the close of the Millennium;-bestowing the eternal rewards of everlasting life to those found worthy, and of everlasting destruction to those found unworthy. No where has Jehovah been mentioned here has it?
“And the body of Christ, the Church, shall be associated with him in all the various features of the blessings, judging, ruling, correcting, etc., and possibly, also in the pronouncing and inflicting of the final rewards and punishments.”
Yes you will being doing things to mankind far worse then disfellowshipping. Eternal destruction, of coarse from God, His Son and the Church.
“are of the Father, though through the Son and through the Church.”
So for all those who desire to do this, they are under judgement now. “each of the consecrated ones his day of judgement, his day of trial, his day of testing-to determine whether or not he shall be accounted worthy of life under the terms of his call and consecration.”
Mt 25:41 saying Jesus is in control which might take a little pressure off 144,000. “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels.” Jesus says the words. Verse used on page 609 same book.
On the same page it say,”For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
Page 619,”as the Scriptures clearly show, he is to be destroyed, together with all his angels-his messengers, all who follow his leading and his coarse.”-Matt. 25:41; Heb.2:14; Rev.20:10.”
It shows Jesus and Jesus and a angel from heaven with the key of the abyss. 20:1,7, 7 has him letting Satan loose. It only reasons it would be the angel with the key mentioned a verse 1. Rev 9:1 says a star from heaven and the key of the abyss was given to that one. Who could that be?
Rev 22:16,”I am the root and the offspring od David, the bright morning star.” It is Jesus!