Didn’t Jehovah/Yahweh appear to Moses in the burning bush? What kind of crazy talk is this to ask if maybe Jesus appeared to Moses in the burning bush? Fasten your seat belts guys! Brace yourself for turbulence and excitement! This is an amazing study!
Hebrews 1: (NKJV)
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
HOW CAN PAUL SAY THAT THE HEAVENS AND EARTH WILL PERISH IF THE EARTH ABIDES FOREVER?
As Peter explains in 2 Pet 3, heavens and earth are symbolic. The old heavens and earth before the flood were not literally destroyed, but it was the old social order and government under the administration of fallen angels. Yet we cannot apply this passage to the present evil age and harmonize that will verse Hebrews…
Hebrews 1:10 (NKJV) And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
So what heavens and earth is it that the Jesus created, yet that will be “changed” and “perish?”
The answer can only be discovered with a careful review of the whole book of Hebrews. We believe that Paul is symbolically talking about the Jewish heavens and the Jewish earth. The Jewish Heavens were it’s priesthood and Law Covenant. The Earth being Jewish Society. Let’s look at the evidence.
Heb 9: (NKJV)
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Here the Law and its sacrifices are part of the Jewish heavens.
Heb. 7:12: For when the priesthood is changed of necessity there takes place a change in the law also. [changed = being changed (verb in present tense – Analytical Greek New Testament]
The heavens that are “changed” are the priesthood, from Levitical to Melchizedek.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So the Old Heavens or Old Law Covenant is dying and ready to vanish away.
Matt 5: (NKJV)
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Notice how Rotherham translates verse 18
18 For, verily, I say unto you, until the heaven and the earth shall pass away, one least letter, or one point, may in nowise pass away from the law, till all be accomplished.
So according to this passage, when will heaven and earth pass? Till all be fulfilled or accomplished. When did that happen? When Jesus died on the cross. Hence as we saw in Heb 8:13 ” Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” So since Jesus fulfilled the Law, it has been dying and slowly vanishing away. As we saw in Heb 7:12 the priesthood is “being changed.” The old Levitical Priesthood is abolished and the new Melchizedek Priesthood is being developed.
So in summary the Heavens and Earth of Heb 1:10-12 are the Jewish Heavens and earth which have been perishing since Jesus died on the cross.
Yet in spite of all we’ve seen, the question remains…
HOW CAN IT BE SAID THAT JESUS CREATED THE JEWISH HEAVENS AND EARTH?
Hebrews 1: (NKJV)
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
We find our answer in Heb 3:3. Speaking about Jesus, Paul says…
Heb 3: (NKJV)
3 For this One [Jesus] has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
Jesus built the house of Moses. We believe that Jesus as God’s representative appeared to Moses in the burning bush and gave God’s Law to Moses. Jesus built the Jewish Heavens and Jewish earth.
God never appeared directly to Moses.
Ex 33:20
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
The law was given to Moses by angels.
Acts 7: (NKJV)
38 “This is he [Moses] who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
Ex 3: (NKJV)
2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Who else could have been this angel of the LORD who appeared to Moses in the burning bush and given him the Law. No wonder in Dan 12:1 Michael is called, “The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;” (Michael means “Who is as God” and who else could that be but Jesus?)
Incidentally, we find more evidence of Jesus activity with ancient Israel here: Jude 5 (ESV) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
So in conclusion on this point, Jesus is superior to the Angels because he is the one who built the Jewish Heavens and Jewish Earth. It was Jesus who gave the Law to Moses and who built Moses House of servants. Yes, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses in the burning bush as God’s chief messenger / Word / Logos.
Hello one and all and whoever contributed these comments.
It always comes down to identifying Jesus and God’s only-begotten son. EVERYONE considern them to be one and the same person – in whatever plane of exixtence.
For Jehovah’s sake, why are the foundational OT types ignored?
Right up to the middle of the second century people became anointed disciples i.e.: Christians solely on the basis of the OT.
What changed?
In the type the sheep was not Abraham’s only begotten son, neither was Isaac the sheep that saved his own life. Weird point?
In the antitype Jesus the sheep was not Jehovah’s only-begotten son. He was the firstborn of Mary and God’s creation as the second adam via the earth of Mary’s womb -Psalm 139:13-15. Only then was that baby given the name Jesus.
Just like in the type, where the sheep that saved Abraham’s only begotten was NEVER an intimate part of Abraham’s family with Sarah never nursing that sheep on her breast, Jesus NEVER grew up in the heavenly realm as part of Jehovah’s heavenly family.
Jesus the sheep did, as prefigured in the type, indeed die instead of the only begotten son of God actually offered as per John 3:16.
So there was no Jesus at the burning bush. Whereas it was that same angel who lead Israel out of Egypt i.e.: God’s only begotten son and first creation who appeared to Moses at the burning bush.
Behold Exodus 23:20-21: “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. NWT
Thank you for allowing me to comment
Dieter
Dieter – Thanks. Yes, types can get confusing if we drill down into too much detail and try to read in them more than was intended.
If I understand you correctly, I think you are saying that the son of God appeared to Moses at the burning bush as the angel of the Lord, however he had not yet been given the name Jesus. Therefore, we cannot say Jesus appeared to Moses at the burning bush. If that is what you mean, I have to agree that technically you are correct, that he did not have the name Jesus at that time. However, perhaps we agree that is was him, even if he was not then called Jesus. Thanks.
Thanks Peter, much appreciated.
Whatever his name it was not Jesus who appeared to Moses at the burning bush because Jesus the sheep is an entirely separate, different and individual living being from Jehovah’s heavenly only-begotten son. There are two of them with one dying in place of the other one actually offered in John 3:16. Behold Hebrews 10:5-10.
Just like the sheep that saved Abraham’s only begotten son never was a part of Abraham’s family nor did Sarah ever nurse it at her breast, so it is in the antitype. Jesus was never in heaven. Look at my website under the Jesus button, for it is all there.
Why does Christianity continue to ignore Paul’s ‘all things written aforetime’ of Romans 15:4?
Right up to the middle of the second Century, people became disciples solely on the basis of the ‘all things written aforetime’ of the OT.
Jesus and the Apostles only quoted or made reference to the OT, not because they had nothing else ;-), but because there was nothing else required, for all the contextual evidence was already part of the knowledge base of potential disciples primarily drawn from synagogue communities of native Israelites and proselytes scattered throughout the Diaspora – Rome having twelve of them at the time.
Why are the types of Abraham’s Sacrifice of his only begotten son Isaac and the Elijah – Elisha handover ignored by Christian communities? They clearly involve two individual lives in the antitypes, whereas traditional Christianity have melded them into one.
Woe betide them.
Bye, Dieter
Dieter – Thanks for you interesting comments. Bible types are wonderful as supporting pictures to truth established by other scriptures. I think your point is that since Isaac and the sheep/ram sacrifices by Abraham are two different living creatures, that therefore Jesus and the Son of God are two different persons. Types really need to support what we can doctrinely prove from other scriptures. We should not establish doctrines with types. In doing so, we can get very creative and prove anything we want.
Consider how Hebrews shows the types in the tabernacle and priesthood. The high priest Aaron represents Jesus (Heb 8:1), as does the Bullock who’s hide is burned outside the camp (Heb 13:11,12). The priest representing Jesus as a New Creature and the Bullock representing his perfect human flesh sacrificed on the typical alter. So in Hebrews, Jesus is represented in two different ways by two different living creatures.
Do you beleive that the Son of God is a spirit being who was the first creation of God and created everything else?
You seem to believe that Jesus did not have a pre-human existence. So when we talk about Jesus’ second presence, is it Jesus or the Son of God that you think is coming back.
Now regarding whether Jesus’ had a pre-human existence, what do you think of these verses?
John 1:15 “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, this was he of whom I spake. He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.” [Since John was born into this world on earth before Jesus, it can only mean that Jesus had a pre-existence.”]
John 8:58, “…Before Abraham was, I am.” (He did not say “I was” since that might have implied that there was a period of time in the interim in which he did not exist. He said “I am” showing that he had continued to exist uninterrupted from His creation.”
Hebrews 1:2, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made (created) the worlds (ages).
John 1:10. “He was in the world, and the world was made through him/it, and the world knew him/it not.” (Jesus made the very world that rejected him. This cannot be the New Creation.)
1 Cor. 10:4 – Israel “…drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and that rock was Christ.”
Find more on the pre-human existance here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2010/11/11/the-scriptural-case-for-jesus%E2%80%99-pre-human-existence/
Hebrews 2:5 makes it clear that the writer is referring to the world to come i.e. future tense. NWT refer us to 2 Peter 3:13, in which Peter is quoting from Isa 65:17 where Messiah will be the agent Yahweh uses to establish the New Heavens and New Earth. Here is a quote from Messiah which cannot be rebuked.He who created them from the beginning” (Matt. 19:4).
“…the creation which God created” (Mark 13:19).
If Jesus had been the agent of the Genesis creation he gave no hint of this in spite of having many opportunities to do so. Furthermore, Paul and the heavenly beings also acknowledge that God was the constructor of the universe by His own hands.
The Greek text use the Greek word o` definite article nominative masculine singular from o` a personal pronoun that shows only the Father created the Genesis heaven and earth. No Hebrew text says the Son was there. 2 Sam 7:13 point to the future begetting of the son.
Keepha – Nice to have you back and sharing. I know you well enough now that I think Bob may seem like a vacation by the time you and I are done discussing some of our differences in regards to your view of Jesus not having a pre-human existence.
You said, “Hebrews 2:5 makes it clear that the writer is referring to the world to come i.e. future tense.” Your point seems to be that my reference to Jesus creating the Jewish Heavens and Earth (Heb 1:10-13) cannot be correct since Paul is speaking in the future tense of the world to come. It seems quite a leap to me to have Paul’s language in in Heb 2:5 dictate the timing and tense of Heb 1:10 unless you can make some more specific connections. However, let us look at the verse you refer to more closely.
Hebrews 2:5 (AV) “For He has not put the world to to come <3195> (5723), of which we speak, in subjection to angels.”
This expression “to come <3195> (5723)” is used elsewhere in Hebrews.
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come <3195> (5723)
Heb 13:14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come <3195> (5723).
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will <3195> (5723) inherit <2816> (5721) salvation <4991>?
This is talking about a future inheritance of which you are speaking, not the earlier verses 10-13 of which I am speaking.
Let me take some time to establish that verse 14 can be connected with Heb 2:5 and the world to come that you referred to.
Heb 1:14 (Rotherham) “…them who are about to inherit salvation?”
Heb 1:14 (Young’s Literal Translation) “…those about to inherit salvation?”
Heb 1:14 (Wilson’s Diaglott) “…those being about to inherit salvation?”
Heb 1:14 (NASV) “…those who will inherit salvation?”
This word inheritance is used in Hebrews 6 where the chapter is talking about the inheriting the promise of being part of the seed of Abraham who will bless all the families of the earth.
Heb 6:12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit <2816> the promises.
Paul uses this same word inherit <2816> in 1 Corinthians.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit <2816> the kingdom of God;
So again this future inheritance is speaking about the kingdom of God which was future from Paul’s day.
Okay, now that we have established the relationship between Hebrews 1:14 and 2:5, let me move on to show that Hebrews 1:10-13 of which I was speaking of is not in the future, but the past when Jesus created the Jewish Heavens and Earth. I establish this in the article by making several connections through the book of Hebrews showing that Paul was speaking of the Jewish Heavens and Earth (the Law Covenant and Priesthood) which Paul explains in His day were growing old and ready to vanish away and Paul speaks about the priesthood being changed, just like we read about the Heavens and Earth in Heb 1:8-10. There is no need for me to repeat the article here.
My question for you Keepha is, “What heavens and earth is it that the Jesus created, yet that will be “changed” and “perish?”
Keepha – You said, “If Jesus had been the agent of the Genesis creation he gave no hint of this in spite of having many opportunities to do so.”
There are many things Jesus gave no hint of, that the Apostles later explained to us after His resurrection. Jesus spoke to the people in parables so that they would not understand, since it was only for His disciples to understand. (Matt 13:10-13). Had Jesus come out and broadcast that He was the Messiah and Son of God, the religious rulers would have had him killed, on which basis they finally did (Matt 26:63-66)? For Jesus to say He had created the world would have yielded the same results and at that time the disciples were not ready to hear it. As a matter of fact, when Jesus said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood, many of His own disciples left Him (John 6:66)
John 16:12-15 (RVIC) “12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when that one, the spirit of truth, is come, it guide you into all the truth: for it shall not speak from itself; but what things soever it shall hear, these shall it speak: and it shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
14 That one shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.
15 All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you.”
Col 1:26 (AV) “Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:”
1 Peter 1 (RVIC) “10 ¶ Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.
12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.”