Bible Student Elder, David Stein led a round table discussion on this topic. Joining him was other Bible Students Jim Parkinson, Ric Cunningham and JM.
Read ” AFTER ARMAGEDDON ” to discover a brighter result of this climatic event than has been reported. Click here to order the free booklet “After Armageddon” Type in the coupon code: ARMAGEDDON
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses look on Armageddon with great fear for themselves and especially loved ones not residing in the safety of the “Ark” (JW Organization). Just who will survive Armageddon? Let’s see how the JW Organization has answered this question in the past.
Watchtower Sept 1, 1989 page 19. – “Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.”
Watchtower 2007 Dec. 15 p.14 “But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things. ”
If correct, then the angel’s promise of great joy for ALL people (Luke 2:10) is of little encouragement, since billions of mankind would never benefit from that promise. Bible Students agree and hope that many of the living Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon. However, we also find scriptural evidence that many others will survive Armageddon as well as explained in the materials here linked to.
Here are more quotes:
You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p.255 – “Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization- God’s visible organization – that will survive the fast-approaching “great tribulation”. . . You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life. ”
Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?” Paragraph – “During the final period of the ‘ancient world’ that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful ‘preacher of righteousness.’ (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization. ”
Does the Bible support this frightening prospect. Will friends and family of JWs who are outside of the organization be eternally destroyed, if they die at the time of Armageddon? Are you afraid?
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. – NWT
Hebrews 13:6 (Amplified Bible) – So we take comfort and are encouraged and confidently and boldly say, The Lord is my Helper; I will not be seized with alarm [I will not fear or dread or be terrified]. What can man do to me?
If 1 John 4:8 says “God is love,” then shouldn’t love, not fear, be our motivation to serve Jehovah? Are you serving Jehovah in a certain way because you are afraid/fearful of being destroyed in Armageddon?
Are all people here a jw?
Kimberly Rose Arpon – Many JWs and Former JWs visit this website. The sponsors of this website are Bible Students. We are the Bible Students who continued with the original early Watchtower teachings and left the new Jehovah’s Witness Organization that took over Bethel and the Watchtower Corporation in 1917-1931. We have continued with the original teachings (including the Ransom for ALL, not just all sorts of people) and we have continued with the same Christian liberty, allowing each one to prove the Truth in their own minds.
Very much moved this explanation “Many of the Jewish people saw that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 revealed Messiah would come in their time. (Luke 3:15) The people of Israel made this mistake, expecting the Messiah to conquer the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom in their time. Before Jesus ascension, the Apostles asked, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)
2 Pet 3:9 (ASV) “ The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you…” He says this two thousand years ago when speaking about the destruction of the symbolic heavens (government and church systems) and earth (social order), also noting that “a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.” (vs. 8)
In Ezekiel 26 we read about seven events that would take place regarding the destruction of Tyre. The Fulfillment begins when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland metropolis (26:8). Over 200 hundred years later Alexander the Great conquered the island fortress of Tyre (a fulfillment of vs 4 and 12.2). From 314 BC to AD 1291, Tyre in fulfillment of verse 3 was sacked and restored numerous times by many nations until its final destruction in 1291. In fulfillment of verse 14, never again was there an attempt to rebuild the Tyre of old. Since then, even today, Tyre is the “place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea.”3 The six predictions from God’s word concerning Tyre in Ezekiel 26 have been remarkably fulfilled. The point is that the complete fulfillment of this prophecy took nearly two thousand years to be fulfilled” God bless all of you for your living sacrifice and your reasonable service.
PS: I need the instructions about how I can participate in this live talk. My Ecclessia is Wakiso Bible Students, country is Uganda in Africa
Hi Laban this is Jacqueline your facebook friend. I like your explanation, Br. Peter and all of us are at the convention I will send you the link to get on and see our convention today. Go to your email to get it. It will be 9:45 am today. Your time might be turned around and might be night there but I will message you on facebook. Thanks for commenting. You can’t talk but you can type to say hello. Take Care.
PS: This is a better place to talk as many can answer and see your comment so they can think on what you say, again thanks for commenting here and comment on other articles also if you please..
Anonymous are you Jehovahs witness?
Thank you Peter K.;
Enjoyed your coments. So we agree that it was the first prophecy given? And we sgree the blow to the head will be shortly after the thousand years are over? Do we agree that the bruise to the heel happened about 33 C.E.?
Anonymous – Yes, I do agree that the bruise to the heel happened about 33 C.E.
Thank you Peter K.;
So then, lets say I was a brand new student of the Bible and I am reading Vol II, how would I possibly understand that? Would it not make more sense to re-write the new light that you gave me?
And, do you believe that the bruise to the heal has taken place, or not with reference to Gen 3:15?
Anonymous – We want to be honest. Brother Russell wrote what he wrote. There is clarification and correction in the Volume 2 Forward. If we write a corrected version, than there is the danger of becoming like the Watchtower organization in the sense that the “light” can change. I think it is okay to clarify it or explain it in other Bible Student writings, talks, etc.
Jesus said things which stumbled people. The disciples asked why he spoke to the people in parables which confused them? Jesus answered that it was not for them to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but rather for His disciples to understand. (Matt 13:10-16) In John 6, when he said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood, many disciples couldn’t handle it and left him. (John 6:66). It was not Jesus intention to make things easy for the world to understand.
1 Pet 1 (NASV) “10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.”
The prophets studied to understand the prophecies about Christ and could not understand, not even the angels could, but since Jesus, now we can understand. However, it was never intended to be easy. Just as the prophets diligently studied, so must we. Jesus weeds out the fair weather Christians, from those who seriously and passionately love Him. They will invest the effort to study and get past what appear to be stumbling blocks on the surface, but underneath there is beautiful harmony. At first, looking at Second Presence and Harvest prophecies may be light listening to an orchestra warming up and getting their instruments ready for a public performance. It sounds like chaos. However, months and even years of careful study and investigation reveal the beauty of the Bible Truths, like the orchestra’s public performance. All the scriptures then come together in beautiful harmony. After that, the stumbling blocks (i.e. drinking Jesus blood) make perfect sense.
In Gen 3:15, the word bruise means t crush. I don’t believe Satan is ever healed, but the Crushing process begins at Jesus second presence with demolishing Satan’s empire, then finally binding or restraining the personal Satan till the 1,000 years are completed. The crushing process is completed at the end of the Little Season when the person Satan is finally destroyed forever.
Thank you very much Peter K.;
No it was not a trick question. And I do agree with you. And I personally don’t don’t think the having babies was one.
Not a trick question now, but, do you find it funny or strange that the first prophecy is still going? Better yet, do you think its still going?
Has any of it been fulfilled or all of it, or none of it?
Vol I page 57,98,”(Gen.3:15), is kept up and elaborated all the wat through.” 98,”Not until it is selected, developed, and exaltedto power, will the seed bruise the serpents head. “The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.” (Rom. 16:20; Gen. 3:15.)
Do you feel the Pastor was wrong in Vol II? Pages 97,98,”rntire period of Gentile dominion, which began when the crown of the typical kingdom of God was removed from Zedikiak…and its times are numbered: …How refreshing the prospect brought to view at the close of these seven times! Neither Israel nor the world of mankind represented by that people will longer be trodden down, oppressed and misruled by beastly Gentile powers. The Kingdom of God and his Christ will then be established in the earth, and Israel and all the world will be blessed under his rightful and righteous authority. Then the root of promise and hope planted first in Eden(Gen.3:15),and borne across the flood and transplanted with Israel the typical people(Gen.12:1-3),will sprout and bloom again.”
As a Bible Student, eas this right or wrong? Before answering, consider WW I breaking out. Also 6 million Jews killed a couple or so decades latter.
Yet on page 99 it says,”In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.”
“Established truth.” Do you agree, there was some truths missing in the established truth?
Anonymous – Thanks. In the forward to volume 2, Brother Russell says, “The author acknowledges that in this book he presents the thought that the Lord’s saints might expect to be with Him in glory at the ending of the Gentile Times. This was a natural mistake to fall into…. We could not, of course, know in 1889, whether the date 1914, so clearly marked in the Bible as the end of the Gentile lease of power or permission to rule the world, would mean that they would be fully out of power at that time, or whether, their lease expiring, their eviction would begin. The latter we perceive to be the Lord’s program; and promptly in August, 1914, the Gentile kingdoms referred to in the prophecy began the present great struggle, which, according to the Bible, will culminate in the complete overthrow of all human government, opening the way for the full establishment of the Kingdom of God’s dear Son..”
I think that Brother Russell was correct in the events that he expected to take place. His mistake was in expecting too much of it to happen quickly, whereas, 1914 was just the beginning of this process still playing out.
Rom 16:20 (NKJV) says, “ the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.” The resurrected Saints as part of the “seed” of Abraham and body members of the glorified Christ participate in this effort to crush Satan. Although this effort began with Jesus second presence, it will not be fully complete until after the 1,000 years and the end of Revelation’s “Little Season.” (Rev 20:3). Keep in mind that just as “the Christ” has body members, so does “the Satan.” Jesus said that “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?”( Matt 12:26 NASV). In Rev 20:2, when Jesus, binds Satan, he lays hold on the old Dragon (civil power).
Eph 6:12 (KJV) says, “12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
So “the Satan” is not just Satan himself, but his complete empire, now being demolished as we see the symbolic heavens and earth shaking around us. Both the Daniel 2 destruction of the image (Satan’s civil and ecclesiastical governments) and the binding of Satan in Rev 20:2-3 show four steps to the destruction, showing that it is gradual and occurs in stages.
You bring up a wonderful concept. Great confusion in Bible interpretation results from the common practice of expecting prophecy to take place to play out faster than Jehovah has planned.
Many of the Jewish people saw that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 revealed Messiah would come in their time. (Luke 3:15) The people of Israel made this mistake, expecting the Messiah to conquer the Romans and set up the earthly kingdom in their time. Before Jesus ascension, the Apostles asked, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)
2 Pet 3:9 (ASV) “ The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you…” He says this two thousand years ago when speaking about the destruction of the symbolic heavens (government and church systems) and earth (social order), also noting that “a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.” (vs. 8)
In Ezekiel 26 we read about seven events that would take place regarding the destruction of Tyre. The Fulfillment begins when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland metropolis (26:8). Over 200 hundred years later Alexander the Great conquered the island fortress of Tyre (a fulfillment of vs 4 and 12.2). From 314 BC to AD 1291, Tyre in fulfillment of verse 3 was sacked and restored numerous times by many nations until its final destruction in 1291. In fulfillment of verse 14, never again was there an attempt to rebuild the Tyre of old. Since then, even today, Tyre is the “place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea.”3 The six predictions from God’s word concerning Tyre in Ezekiel 26 have been remarkably fulfilled. The point is that the complete fulfillment of this prophecy took nearly two thousand years to be fulfilled.
So we are impatient and prophecies (i.e. end times prophecies) play out over a much longer period than most people imagine.
To Peter K. on May 17th post;
As to replaceing God’s name. About 1500 B.C.E Moses is inspired to write and puts it in. Later, more and more inspired ones do likewise, all the way to the arrival of the Messiah. The twelve tribes had their ups and downs for over 1500 years but God was there seeing to the one he told Moses would come, and foretold where he would be born, and from what tribe. And a silver piece dating from the seventh or sixth century B.C.E. shows it was still there half way to the Messiah. And the Jewish Encyclopedia,1976,Vol.XII,p.119 shows the name was in fact known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of the Common Era.
So with the name being there in the 39 Hebrew book for such a long time, but it missing so quickly from the 27 books of mostly Greek, the question arises. Why so long? Why so short?
As stated earlier, Moses foretold the one coming and it took over 1500 years. The one who came showed,the enemy mixing in, and for a long time. Also it showed that it was starting but would not become wide spread until the apostles all were gone. And the last living one wrote inspired books and showed it towards the future in Rev 1:10
The fact it came swiftly would have it removed swiftly. God was only dealing with the survivors who were scatterd about. For the Romans had killed many of the individuals. Logically, with the enemy abouding the name was removed.
And one other question Peter. Was Gen 3:14-19 the first prophecy?
Anonymous – Thanks for the history lesson and your explanation for how Jehovah’s (or Yahweh’s) name got out of usage. Very interesting.
You asked whether Gen 3:14-19 was the first prophecy? (i.e. seed of woman to bruise serpents head). Now I am trying to figure out if this is a funny trick question or if it is a serious one. After all, it doesn’t take much effort to scan from Gen 1:1 to 3:14 to see if there is another prophecy there. Unless it is veiled an not obvious. I have always thought of the words in Gen 3:14-19 as the first prophecy. Perhaps you can say it was Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” What do you think?
It doesn’t take a prophet to see the obvious ,the WTS is it own worst enemy . You would do well to heed the warning signs and get out of her 😉
Hi adrian, I have always said the watchtower is it’s own worst enemy. They say and do things that puts them at risk of people going “WHAT”?. You don’t really have to say anything about them, they will do something idiotic, like putting their picture out there like a Golden Calf. They have trained the flock to reject idols and men putting themselves upfront. Don’t they realize these people will say something is wrong up there and congregation elders will say as one told me “We run this congregation and take care of our people, not those boys in New York.” The funeral talk was so different from the society’s version, they really cared and focused on the surviving children and the life of the deceased relative of mine. So it has started already.
Are you a prophet?
The “waters” of the WTS are going to begin drying up .This will start in Western Europe and domino through to the Americas and eventually Asia and on into Africa.
Adrian – I am keeping a watchful eye on what is going on in the JW Organization. You may be correct. I really don’t know. Probably if I went to the Kingdom Hall down the street, I would not see any obvious signs of it falling apart. I agree with you that the JW organizations control overseas is not as strong. I remember a quote from Star Wars of all places, where princess Leia warns, “The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.” Is this happening with the Watchtower. I don’t know, but I am watching. If more JWs leave, looking for support, we hope they can find it here and with the original Bible Students. We like this website to be a place of friendly conversation, encouragement and Christian liberty, where struggling JWs have a place to test their beliefs against scripture and to talk with others of like mind, with faith in Jehovah’s word.