The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.
Afflicted with anti-Semitism the traditional churches developed “Replacement Theology.” Some early church theologians wrongly concluded that Israel as a people was eternally rejected by God for having rejected Jesus. The claim is that the church is now spiritual Israel and, as such, has replaced natural Israel.
The King James Version of the Bible is filled with examples where promises to natural Israel are applied to the Christian Church through arbitrary chapter headings. For example, above Isaiah 59 is added a heading, “The sins of the Jews.” Yet in the very next chapter, Isaiah 60, the chapter heading added is “Glory of the Church.”
God promised the Land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants forever. To renege on this agreement would make God a liar. Yet how do we explain that Abraham was never given the land?
Gen 13:14-17 : 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (KJV)
Gen 17:1-8: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him… 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (KJV)
These verses teach that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever. That’s why we call it the Land of Promise. If orthodox Christian thinking were correct, we should rename it the Land of Broken Promise.
Notice how verse 7 of Gen. 17 speaks of “the land wherein thou art a stranger.” Notice also…
Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (KJV)
Abraham died as a stranger in the land, without receiving an inheritance in it. This proves Abraham can’t be in heaven. He’ll be resurrected on earth in God’s kingdom to receive this inheritance with his descendants.
I think you mean 1975. And yes it was wring. Just like 1914 going to heaven was wrong. We have refinements not 180’s. However it wasn’t the content that they refused to preach. Many of the elders felt that them being in the lead was enough. Many left right after the Finished Mystery came out. There were many reason. But many left not because of what they taught but because they didn’t want to follow Rutherford they wanted to stick to Russell’s teachings. They even left before the denouncement of the Great Pyramid. There were many reason. But there are discrepancies between bible student sects as well as JWs. We still Believe we were founded by CTR. If we didn’t change our name we’d still be Bible Students. I think that much has been says about Rutherford because many wanted to take the lead but he got it one way or another sure he made mistakes. But a lot if what he taught we no longer teach.
oops. Yes I meant 1975.
–“But many left not because of what they taught but because they didn’t want to follow Rutherford they wanted to stick to Russell’s teachings.”
This statement sort of contradicts itself. You state it is “not because of what they taught” then state it is because “they wanted to stick to Russell’s teachings.”
I actually agree with you on this.
–” I think that much has been says about Rutherford because many wanted to take the lead but he got it one way or another sure he made mistakes. ”
The way he took control was and still is considered very underhanded. A true follower of Christ would never have considered doing it the way he did. This upset quite a few at the time. And I am sure is a matter of contention to this day with some.
–“If we didn’t change our name we’d still be Bible Students.”
My point exactly. You DID change your name because you were no longer the majority of the Bible Students out there at the time. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, it is time for me to retire for the evening. It has been interesting. Thank you for the conversation.
Take care, God bless and keep smiling’
Br. Chuck
Of course. If you can’t get behind him then you leave Believe it or not many BS left because of the preaching work. Israel didn’t obey Jehovah they were cut off. We believe that we are Gods Channel. If you dint believe then we move on. That was Rutherford’s purpose. Of course we changed teachings because we were ahead of our time with prophesies. For further discussion on that look at the Zion’s WT 1878 page 3. It will explain why we were wring about 1914 going to heaven. So the BS updated. That near in due season was wrong. Just like many if the other teachings. That’s why Bro Rutherfords teachings seek to disagree with BS. Because we clarified then further that it wasn’t right.
–“Believe it or not many BS left because of the preaching work.”
Yes, but, what they were to preach was not acceptable to God in their view. So they were against “that” preaching I am sure. A great percentage of the Bible Students of that time could not get behind Br. Rutherfords teachings. They could not “preach” it in good conscious. You may have been told something different to convince you that you were the “chosen” and not those that left. I do not know of a Bible Student that does not spread the Gospel to the people of this world. And it is not “work”. It is a pleasure that we do willingly as I am sure you do. (We DO share major scriptural truths).
If you want to discount Br. Russell for what he may have gotten wrong. I’m can create a LONG list of what the JW’s have gotten wrong. Does 1985 come to mind?
–“Of course we changed teachings because we were ahead of our time with prophesies.”
You have had to make MANY changes throughout the years. This does not convince me the above statement has any merit. As for always having to correct the mistakes. Would Gods true Church make all of those mistakes. Maybe, we are just human.
–“We believe that we are Gods Channel. If you dint believe then we move on.”
I can accept that you believe this, I believe it of myself and of the Bible Students. I do not know of any organized religion that does not believe this about themselves. Pagan included. When faced with “Scriptural errors” in their minds the Bible Students moved on.
In Christ,
Chuck
I was stating that because Rutherford wasn’t as bad as the BS made him out to be
Chris,
Yeah, I understand. But whether his name is mentioned or not, most of the “changes” in the beliefs of the Early Bible Students under Br. Russell were instituted by Br. Rutherford. Those changes were taken as Gods word by some and most of the Bible students of that time disagreed with those changes. Hence, their leaving. It was not so much as they worshipped Br. Russell as they could not get behind the changes made by Br. Rutherford. Those that stayed in Br. Rutherford’s new group still follow his teachings all be it modified by the GB. Again, whether his name is mentioned or not.
Except for a few ecclesias I find that the JW’s bring up Br. Russell more than the Bible Students. Usually in trying to prove a point. A lot of books were written in his defense as we know there was a lot of hate for him in nominal Christiandom. And I still don’t believe he was the founder of the JW’s. ; ) I attend a few study groups myself and we study directly from the Scriptures. Or current study books. The Volumes are great reference and I really enjoy them. Yes, I have spent years studying them on my own to get a grasp on who Br. Russell was and the meat that was given in that due season. They were written in an important time in history. It seems it is the JW’s that can’t get past him.
These are only my opinions.
In Christ,
Chuck
Well believe it or not the name Rutherford never is mentioned. You may here it very rarely.
Chris,
From your last post. (below):
–“Rutherford that taught us later that Christmas was not part of gods ways.”
and
–“But after what Rutherford says made sense.”
Like I said. Be careful.
In Christ,
Chuck
Yes. I have seen even between different bible translations that different doctrines become scewed. I do know that even though Pastor Russell taught certain things it doesn’t mean they are set in stone. For example Charles Taze Russell said that celebrating Christmas was okay he actually stated let’s join the rest of the world in celebrating it. However it was Rutherford that taught us later that Christmas was not part of gods ways. And we should reject it. We may not agree with the BS out C T R was wrong about Christmas. He can be wrong on other issues. I think JWs get judged by the BS very harshly. I have the publications “CT Russell not the founder if the JWs” which hates on is pretty badly. And the CT Russell. Messenger of the millennial hope says JWs have lost the hope of the high calling. Why? Who are they to say that. No one has 100% truth. Just in case it’s on page 391. We do believe we have the channel today. We are bringing more to Jesus and Jehovah. We learn new things all of the time. I still study the BS stuff. I even have the Epiphany Studies books. All 21 of them. I would love the Great Pyramid to be true. But after what Rutherford says made sense.
Chris,
I agree with most of what you just said. But be careful. You sound a lot like those that “worship Russell” by yourself “worshipping Rutherford”. I just ask you to be careful on that.
In Christ,
Chuck
Sorry as we’ll. I love to debate. Even with Mormons. But I née to put 2 Tim 2:23 into practice. “23 Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. 24 For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,”
For example. The Bible Students disagree with the Watchtower being Gods Channel of Communication. However, in Zion’s Watchtower 1890 page 1171 bottom left paragraph it says “The Tower has been chosen as the Lords vessel for dispensing meat in due season. ” but your own people say that it was just supposed to be a publishing house and not an organization. That Rutherford took it over and said it was Gods communication to earth.
–“However, in Zion’s Watchtower 1890 page 1171 bottom left paragraph it says “The Tower has been chosen as the Lords vessel for dispensing meat in due season. ””
I am sure that during Br. Russell’s time (which was the “due season”) the truth was being served. After the takeover in 1917 did the “due season” continue? Will it always be “due season” as long as that publication is being produced? There have been many publications by many groups since that time, and they all believe to be truths. Some obviously cannot be. Many newspapers have changed hands and editorially disagreed with their predecessors. Who was right? We both believe our own views are correct. Arguing serves no goal.
My personal belief is that the truths revealed in “due season” in the pastors day were due to be revealed at that time. Since then there have been differences in opinion on “new truths”. I am a believer in new light shining until our Lord’s Kingdom is set up. But unless it is Scriptural it cannot be accurate. Again, we have differences of opinion there I am sure. Let’s not hate on each other in the meantime.
Just some questions I have wondered about.
Any comments?
In Christ,
Chuck
You can disagree by your own opinions. But I have the publications. State something and well talk about it. Other than that if you want to disagree do so. But your own publications are what you’re disagreeing with
Chris. Please explain. How am I disagreeing with Bible Student Publications?
Chris,
What I believe is happening is that we are disagreeing with YOUR/OUR interpretations of those publications and Bible Student history. You/we do not have a monopoly on knowing everything and always being right. Discussion is not one sided. You seemed to be saying in all your posts “I am right and I know I am right. Debate over.” That is not how it works here. We all try to be understanding of others beliefs and questions. With honest debate. Not bullying.
I apologize for the way a came across earlier. Your statements should not have gotten to me as they did. I had to take a break to gather my wits and cool down. Again, I am sorry for anything I may have said that was improper.
Take care, God bless and keep smiling’
In Christ,
Chuck
I’ve responded to all the topics. None more none less. I have used the materials your belief system has used. Stop victimizing yourself saying I’m attacking you no have attacked beliefs systems and I have done so to yours. I quote from materials YOUR religion produced. So any misrepresentations is due your your sects publications so I’m being honest when stating my facts. Call them what you will but they are from your belief system which by the way attacks us in the books. Do have a great evening. You can pick a topic if you want but I’ll quote the bible but I dint want you to accuse me of stabbing with the double edged sword.
Chris – Again, I disagree with you. If you are sincerely interested in arriving at the true facts, then pick one of your allegations or any one topic and we can discuss it together. We can dig into the evidence and documentation together to arrive at the truth. Can you pick one topic? Or are you done talking?
What do you mean back out? I’ve responded to all of the claims that we have made. Still doesn’t help your argument that no one knows who you are! And of course I bring you your history thats what we are discussing isn’t it. Yes Charles Taze Russell is long gone but you still study those books like they are the word of God. We have book studies but if they have things we no longer teach then we don’t use them anymore. Which brings me to the fact that you still publish them and use them and study them. Which means you are frozen in his teachings!! You still use terms like Ancient Worthies that was used by him even though it is not used in the Bible. Charles Taze Russell is seen almost like Mormons see Joseph Smith. Almost every major publication mentions russell. Move on. I am one of the few who know most about WT History.
Bible Students have many divisions which Jesus says he doesn’t like. So how can you be the “Lords People”? You have varying beliefs. I am glad he took over the watchtower because we wouldn’t be where we are today. A united people who love and serve Jehovah. Not a divided sect that claims they are a fulfillment that still no one knows about. Jehovah’s People are part of an organization just like the Nation of Israel was organized. We are organized because Jehovah claims that his people would be. Not splinters teaching conflicting doctrines.
Chris – I disagree with your representations of Bible Students. If you request that I respond to any of your allegations, I can do that. Otherwise it would take a book to respond to so many of your inaccurate statements, so I will take a pass.
You have had your opportunity to attack us and I have allowed that; but because you are all over the map I need to set some ground rules for you.
If you have one particular topic at a time that you would like to discuss, let me know what the topic is and make your case. You have to stick to that one topic until we mutually agree that we are done discussing it. Then you can select another topic to discuss with the same ground rules. If you continue to attack on multiple topics, I will delete your comments. Otherwise, under these ground rules, you can continue.