For decades Charles Taze Russell’s legacy has been associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses in published accounts that inaccurately list him as their founder. In 1997, Professor David S. Doran corrected the matter by writing the editor of The Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia and delivering a more accurate account of Brother Charles Taze Russell’s life. Through Professor Doran’s efforts, the second edition presenting the truth was published in 1998 and reflects these changes. We quote as follows:
“Russell, Charles Taze , known as Pastor Russell (1852-1916). Religious leader, founder of what is commonly called the “Bible Student Movement,” born in Pittsburgh, PA. As a Congregationalist, he struggled with the concept of eternal torment, his subsequent studies leading him to conclude that the Biblical hell is oblivion, that the millennium began in 1874, and that a period of social and political upheaval would lead to a peaceable kingdom on earth. After his death, many followers abandoned his Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (1879), which under the leadership of Joseph Rutherford moved in other directions and ultimately — became known as Jehovah’s Witnesses (1931).” — Bible Students Newsletter, p. 7, Spring, 1999
Questions Caz
During Brother Russell’s ministry he had many that left his teaching altogether, or kept a lot of it but started their own guidance program away from Pastor Russell’s channel or channels.
Did Brother Russell believe he had the right channel, or channels, or no channel at all?
As a BS they would say he was the only right channel.
But some other BS,s would say others were channels also.
How was it from Moses to Jesus? 1,2, or more channels?
So the question. When other broke from the WT after Brother Russell passed were these all good channels?
Francis, very good question worth consideration.
What was Russell’s view about the WT being the only channel?
That it indeed was “established a channel of communication amongst his people so that none need be without such fellowship and spiritual intercourse” and a “chosen vessel.. for dispensing ‘meat in due season'” R1171,2314
Notice what the channel’s purpose was, to dispense spiritual food at the proper time, meat in due season so that none are spiritually deprived.
Considering that all believe Russell’s WT was considered the only channel, and that the GB does not consider itself the only channel (see, http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/12-things-we-learned-from-geoffrey-jacksons-testimony-at-the-royal-commission) makes is reasonable to say that, YES – when the original WT broke, some, not all are too considered viable “channels” used IF adhearing to the channel previously accepted, Russell’s WT (with reasonable changes of some aspects and considerations). Not to created “new” channels.
I say this because, Russell’s WT spoke primarily towards and of the church, which is without an iota of doubt is the primary concern and focus of our Lord in the end of this age and dispensation; this season is the most proper time for edifying the Church, the remnant of the Bride of Christ.(John 15:26, 1 Corinthians 14:12; Ephesians 6:10-17)
All who make this focus, too is a proper channel.
Francis,
I agree God used many channels that were divinly appointed. However, none of them contradicted one another. God did not show Russell that the Jews would be restored to their homeland and then show it means when Rutherford to get out of jail and restored that work. Many JWs will try to say “well Russell changed his view of the New Covenant”. But he never claimed that his former belief of the NC was a truth. It was just what they believed because of Christendom. Everything Russell wrote about and even Rutherford in his book “Comfort for the Jews is being fulfilled by Israel. Israel is being gathered back to their homeland in preparation for the millennium. In the current watchtower they state that the Valley of the Dry bones of about the organization. That’s not correct. Israel is being restored. Rutherford knew he needed some form of divine appointment so he replaced the Jews with his people. He had the society to be chosen in 1919. That’s the only way he can give credence to divine appointment.
I suggest you read the watchtowers and books by Rutherford. He changed everything because he wanted a new world society with the watchtower as ruler.
Brett, Francis, Anon and all you are getting nearly 4,000 views and 75% are new to the site so this must be a subject of interest to many.
Jacqueline;
That is very interesting to know. This subject is what really drew my attention when still a Jehovah’s Witness. I really questioned if the Governing Body was truly a channel between us and God!
I often wondered about the sectarian view the GB had and especially because they changed their beliefs so often. It was the Ransom that I found they teach is so contradictive. Notice when you put it down in writing…
1)Adam who’s original sin was paid for by Christ would not benefit from the Ransom…
2) Billions who lived in and died up until just before Armegeddon would have a resurrection without ever showing faith in the Ransom, yet over a billion Chinese and a billion Indian people would die a second death or eternal death at Armegeddon even though they do not understand it or even had it preached to them?
3) the Ransom was by the Grace of God or undeserved kindness yet it requires faith only at Armegeddon but not before that???
4) All humans under same condemnation in Adam but Sodom and Gamorah no resurrection, Adam no resurrection, at times Solomon no resurrection because of apostacy????
5) Ransom for All or All sots of????
6) not allowing Bible to interpret what “many” means (Matt 20:28) it means all when uou allow scripures to interpret Rom 5:15, 19….
7) though all humans under same condemnation those who die at Armegeddon get no resurrection as though they receive some new condemnation.
8) 1st Adam brought death to mankind and last Adam(Christ) brings life to all, that is a resurrection and Judgment for world of mankind and immortality to those in this age that accept him now. But Witnesses treat it as though it is Judgment day at Armegeddon and their preaching isn’t a “Witness” but a judgment measage.
These are just some of the many contradictive ideas of the Ransom they teach..
I believe it all stems from a control and fear indoctrination they have introduced.
Russell put the fire out in hell and released people from the fear of hellfire, but Rutherford’s new doctrine replaced hellfire and that was Second Death and Armegeddon…
These teachings are fear induced phobias that inprison the minds of millions of JW’s…
I know I had this very fear for me, my wife my children and the rest of our family.
Once I realized the Bible truly does not teach this and that Jehovah wants no one to serve him out of morbid fear but simply out of love it freed me and my family…
The GB uses fear in every area of the JW world
Fear of being disfellowshipped, if your a brother fear of not being used, or you could be considered bad association or week.
Their control is all around you… Think about the Sunday watchtower study and the control.
They give you a paragraph and tell you what a certain scriptual text is teaching and means. Then they pose a question and want you to repeat what they said and give them back the answer they gave you. And if your a real good boy or girl you will give them the answer they gave you, back in your OWN WORDS!!
And then if you can expound on what they told you to say well ya just might get appointed a servant or receive some special duty…
Control fear control and more fear….
Fear is the best weapon of all great manipulators. It can move people to do anything,(Turn in time) no matter how illogical and stupid.
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” ~Bertrand Russell
True, Adam was Ransomed. He and Jesus was the perfect match of each other. Adam & Eve were sentenced to death not Gehenna. God knows everything but he said let’s make man and every word out of his mouth shall be done. He didn’t change when Adam sinned he decided to let the adversary see if you can make it without him.He knew the beginning and knows how it will end.He knows everything nothing takes him by surprise like the governing body teaches.
He said Israel would be like the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven and that they would inherit land but the governing body says he goes back on his word to Israel and Abraham.they have not yet got all that promised land, but they will and witnesses are not substituted for his people Israel.
I always wondered why he would turn his back on Abraham’s offspring when he made a promise a ccovenant.
I will butt out now and let you brothers continue and monitor the site.
You are using Greek words so we have to physically approve some comments but we are on it quickly. Take Care.
PS:I just need to add one more puzzling thing.God said a child would not suffer for the sins of the parent but the governing body of the witnesses says: YOUR CHILD WILL
DIE AT ARMAGEDDON BECAUSE YOU, THE PARENTS DIDN’T CHOOSE TO BE A WITNESS or left their organization.
I agree with you Bret, FEAR! and in the name of God! The men are begging for money, every time they do their TV presentations, like the televangelists of old. They have no shame because they are a corporation and other governments are trying to take the charity status away because of their shunning policies.
They are running a racket and most witnesses like it that way. But Jesus has gotten them from under the burden of men like theses, just the same.
Jacqueline;
“YOUR CHILD WILL DIE AT ARMAGEDDON BECAUSE YOU, THE PARENTS DIDN’T CHOOSE TO BE A WITNESS”
Great point made… They even deny the Ransom to little children as though God were unjust and go back on his attribute of justice and take the Ransom away from a child born under Adam’s condemnation…
Again the whole purpose of the Ransom and At•one•ment is to set the Creation/mankind free from enslavement to sin and corruption…
That’s what a loving God does is extend mercey to every single person making atonement and giving them the same shot at life that Adam had in the beginning..
Most Witnesses do not know that the Watchtower teaches Jesus is not their MEDIATOR
“… one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” 1 Timothy 2:5,6
They do not touch on it very often but it is still their teaching that he is not mankinds mediator but only for the 144,000.
You can find a youtube video of a man calling the Branch to ask if Jesus is the Mediator of the Great Crowd and all mankind like 1 Tim 2:4-6 says and the man is told no!!! Total disregard for scripture…
“So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.”
Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31
“Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.” Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” (1986) pp.10-11
Very nice indeed. I felt this to be a major topic in mind of many when I reintroduced this conversation again in March 10.
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/06/06/the-watchtower-society-the-channel-of-god/comment-page-2/#comment-1097099
I hope many more make comments on this thread so we all can really see whats has happened and where this will lead for the WT. History tends to repeat itself for the sake of repetition in order to get it right.
I think something is going to happen within the WT Org in a few years to come (if we are still waiting on the Lord). I think that the Org is sitting on a few ‘bubbles’ ready to burst…
When I say “get it right”, Im not suggesting it ever will! Christ will set all things right during the Millennium.
I probably should say “..repetition so see how wrong thaey are on certain things.”
Sorry Bret for not being able to answer your last few posts. I feel it is important to seek better understanding on this post. Your Post!
1. Changed.
2. Turnover of GB.
3. New dominant spirit take over.
4. Truth never really changes.
5. Yahweh.
1. The W.T. is not the FS.
God changed his heart. 1 Sam. 10:9
Jerusalem will be raised higher. Zech. 4:10
But any change in the priesthood must mean a change in the Law as well. Heb. 7:12
Jesus belonged to a different tribe and never done service at the alter. Jehovah makes changes to things some of which are recorded in the Bible. He gave the Revelation to Jesus and we know Pastor Russell had some wrong teachings on it and even said I don’t know. That is why he called it the present truth. It looked like truth at the time, but later it showed it was not the truth. So, yes, the truth never changed it just became more clearer.
Now Mal. 3:16 said God never changes. But that does not mean he does not change things. Babel is a good example. He changed their languages.
2. If you read from the time Brother Russell began studying the Bible, you will see that the leaders with him changed and had two types of turnover. They either died while serving with him or they made their own beliefs and left him. Likewise to day, The members on the GB either die or leave also. So turnover goes both ways and I see no issue.
3. In reading the WT,s from Brother Russell on today, I see no dominant spirit. It is in the eye of the beholder, I see no proof of the charge.
4.Truth really never changes. Can’t argue with you on that point, but when Pastor Russell thought the great trib. would be about a year, we see that was viewed as truth, but it was not. Same thing has happened with the FS. None in the whole history of the WT are like the Pope where they make no mistakes. None have claimed in fallibility either.
5. Recently a Bible Student said that the Jews today refer to the name of God as Yehovah. And that in the 16oo,s the Germans J sounded like the Jews Y so they pronounce it Jehovah. Have heard a Jewish lady on T.V. call Him Yehovah. Why the o instead of Yahweh. I believe his name is Gordon, whether first or last I don’t recall. Try a search such as Sacred Name Gordon for article. The reason is he shows where a Jewish copyist translated or copied the divine name over 6,000 times but made a mistake on 50 of them. The mistake was exactly identical all 50 times. The o was put in. The reason why this happed is quite clear to disguise the real name.
The moral of the story is. Jesus will do the judging as regards the elect. ALL THOSE WHO ARE JW, elect should do what they feel the spirit leads them to. All who are BS,s should do likewise.
For example, out of 20 or more BS conventions I have heard JW,s mentioned less than 5 times. They focus on the Bible, Likewise all the JW conventions, they too focus on the Bible.
I hope you will reconsider your post here. When Israel received the Law, they did not have the means to get a Bible in every ones hands. But the written word was shared at gatherings and festivals by the priesthood. Who had turnover, and had to be replaced.
Will look forward to your discussion, and p.s. When I used the word argue I meant discus.
Fransic
While I agree with many if your points I would have to say I also disagree. Following the statement that truth never changes there is a dominant spirit in the WTS.
1. No freedom of choice. It is a disfellowshipping offense to celebrate Christmas. Don’t believe me? Check the “Shephard the Flock” book. They consider it apostasy to celebrate it. Even if they think it’s pagan then why can’t they let you have your view on it? That’s what freedom of Christ is. But to have someone at the top interpreting the bible and imposing it on you and you must believe it or be considered either and apostates or rejecting the truth and disfellowshipped is wrong. We have freedom in Christ. Being in unity and love is by the spirit. Not doctrine. Not by procedures and regulations.
2. The WTS parallels the Catholic Chuch on many important doctrines
a. The Bible Cannot be understood without their leaders.
Reference: For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” Watchtower 1967 Oct 1 p.587
b. Only those who belong to their church are qualified for salvation.
References: To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation” – Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.212
C. Claim to be Gods appointed people on earth that get direct instruction on earth.
References: However, the Governing Body are appointed through the holy spirit under the direction of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.” Watchtower 1990 Mar 15 p.18
Also how can truth change so drastically? For example with the Bible Students we believe God has a plan for all of mankind in which he is selecting a bride to bring blessings to all of mankind. JWs have it that we must join their organization to be saved or die eternally in Armageddon. I’m sorry but that’s garbage. That’s what Christendom heresy states “join now or be lost forever”. Jehovah’s witnesses have become Christendom when they denied the ransom for all and made it only for those accepting the truth now. You’ve taken the judgement of the world of mankind in the millennium and made it now. That defeats the whole
Purpose of the Divine Plan. You’ve accepting Christendom’s position about accepting now or be lost.
I see no comparison for the false teaching of the cult of JWs. The JWs believe their organization is the Ark. Bible Students believe that Jesus is the ark. We come into him for salvation. Not an organization.
Francis;
Not sure I quite understand your request to change my post or reconsider? Are you speaking of me using Yahweh? I would not consider an argument over the name whether or not Yahweh or Jehovah because it means the same thing!
And I do not believe there is a scholar that thinks Jehovah is more accurate than Yahweh; its just that JW’s are tied to that name and did so back before there was more Scholarly work done and discovered.
I noticed you did not mention what questions i posed about the faithful slave parable of Matt 24:45-47
Did Jesus put that Slave in charge of the duty to feed before he left which was in 33 C.E at his death? Watchtower proclaimed that for decades until 2012!
This is the most common explanation by commentators and scholars alike!
And if he didn’t go away why does say that upon his arrival “If he found that Slave (Singular) doing so, he would appoint HIM over all his belongings?”
Let me just say “Show me in writing”, because I was a Elder 12 years and a servant 6 years I know when there isn’t an explanation your told to wait on jah!!
If Jesus did go away then where did he go if he is still present in his “parousia”, and is he not directing the preaching work as your “SLAVES” say?
If jesus is still present and is directing the GB and never really left why say “IF HE FINDS THEM DOING SO”?
You will find no explanation why this changed… But they also feel they do not owe you an explanation how they would consolidate power to just those 7 men…
Francis…
Here is the quote again to look over..
That “slave,” according to Jesus’ description, would be on hand when the Lord departed for heaven and would still be alive at the time of Christ’s return. Such a description could not possibly fit an individual human. But it does fit Christ’s faithful anointed congregation viewed as a whole.” United in Worship of the Only True God p.119
Thank you for posting this, I have been looking for this reference for over a year!!
Hi Francis, Brett and Anon (and all)
Just wanted to join in the discussion if i could, as its interesting to see both sides and i have agreement in both areas and disagreement also….. My apologies again as this post is a little long and so its not easy to digest…
Some things that i have appreciated over 30years of studying is how my views have altered on subjects, not on the truth of Gods word…..
1) ive always considered that not all would die at the time of Armageddon as Jehovah is a God of Justice, Mercy and above all the personification of Love. And as we know the judging has been left in the hands of our Lord Jesus Christ, and no man can judge or is capable of judging at that time.
2) That we have the right to be able to look and ask questions about a certain scripture and not be in trouble if we disagree….didnt even Jesus ask….what do you think….to his disciples…
3) But i also believe that not all will be saved, resurrected or worthy of the life blood that our Lord poured out on mankinds behalf. It all comes down to understanding again and in no way am i suggesting that i am correct, but not what any GB person says, but what the Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew actually means (by the way im from GB haha)
4) That once saved is not always saved
So i wanted to raise that thought about what i have researched and come to the conclusion about, again apologies for its length. I will focus on one point first as this has a bearing on many of the points of discussion, and thats about if Adam will gain a resurrection?
Because of Adam having failed his first trial in the Garden of Eden, why should he be allowed a second opportunity in the resurrection? Pastor Russell in 1909 answered this question by simply saying that it was Gods Will that he should receive such a resurrection. In Volume 5 in Studies in the Scripture and discussing Atonement on page 22, Pastor Russell quite rightly pointed out that when Adam became a transgressor it was an intelligent and wilful act, he was not deceived (1 Tim 2:4).
It has often been stated that Adam did not receive the most favourable trial under conditions which God could have arranged, and as he was inexperienced and with sympathetic love for his wife, he felt he would lose her after already being alone for so long, so was prepared to eat of the forbidden fruit. (See questions about Adam published by the Pastoral Bible Institute and in the Herald of Christ’s Kingdom magazine also Volume 5 in Studies in the Scriptures page 469). Humans have the tendency of self-justification when we do things wrong, due to our imperfect state. So it would be presumptuous of us to ever suggest what Jehovah God may have said to Adam, except for what we read in the Scriptures. So what do the Scriptures say as regards this?
Question – Can we say that the temptation in the Garden of Eden was a trial that was meant to bring only good to mankind? Obviously that kind of trial would only bring about a bad result, which it did because of our first parents’ disobedience. So the Devil tempted them with evil intent in his heart. Notice what James 1:13-15 tells us, ‘When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death’.
Therefore it is clear that Jehovah God would never have tried or tempted Adam and Eve, so in the light of better understanding it is incorrect to suggest that God would have made the trial on Adam under favourable conditions. In fact in like manner the trial at the end of the millennial is brought about by Satan when he is released from his prison bonds, not by Jehovah God (Revelation 20:7-10).
So can we conclude that Adam will also receive a resurrection because of the sin atoning sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ? Simply put the answer is No! Why?
In John 1:29 it tells us that Jesus took away the sin of the world, seeing that Adam was a part of the world, does that not include Adam? Let’s again consider the Greek word used here for world, kosmos. This literally means….an ordered system or…. the inhabitants of the world…..so initially it would seem to include Adam (and of course Eve). Now let’s consider the context of the Scripture. Here it is highlighting the fact that it is the lamb, Jesus Christ, mankind’s redeemer, who takes away the sin of the world. In this case it must therefore refer to the world of sinful mankind, as they are the only ones who needed the redeemer (Job recognised this). Consequently it becomes plainly obvious that as Adam was created perfect he had no need for a redeemer and in that state of perfection he failed the trial, instigated by Satan, that came upon him. Therefore the ransom cannot be applied to Adam at that time. But what about when he had fallen from perfection into his sinful state in which we know he died? At this point can the ransom be applied to Adam?
Initially, did Jehovah God already have a plan for delivering sinful mankind? Clearly this is not the case; otherwise God could be charged with having insight into mankind’s fall or of pre-destined it. The first prophecy relating to the ransom sacrifice is not recorded until Genesis 3:15, but our first human parents had already sinned by that point. After eating the forbidden fruit, Genesis 3:7 shows their eyes had already been opened and they started to sew coverings for themselves to hide their nakedness, an act that would have taken time to accomplish. Genesis 3:8 tells us that sometime afterwards Jehovah was looking for them during the cool of the day or the evening hours just before sunset. Then, only after a conversation, Jehovah had to instigate the release by ransom, but Adam and Eve had already fallen from perfection. So the ransom did not apply to their imperfect state, it was instigated after their fall had already happened. The ransom was put in place by Jehovah in view of the children in the loins of Adam, not for Adam.
Let’s next consider the situation at the end of the millennial reign of Christ. At that time, the final test as instigated by Satan will happen on mankind who are now raised to a perfected state (those who survive into the millennial reign and those who are resurrected on earth)? Revelation tells us that the ones who fail this test by Satan will undergo complete destruction (fiery destruction….Revelation 20:7-9). These ones will have come to know God and know what he requires of them during the millennial reign, exactly the same as Adam knew God in the beginning. Remember that Adam as the earthly son of God in his perfect state conversed regularly with Jehovah God and was taught Jehovah’s ways and what was required of him, hence why he ‘was not deceived’. The length of period of time that Adam was alone without Eve is not stated in the Scriptures, but it must have been quite some time. This is so, as Adam was given the task of naming the thousands of animals, which we know he did by observing them and naming them appropriately and having a meaning with the name. And so to repeat, all during the time he was alone, Adam was learning the ways of Jehovah, probably as a perfect man, quicker than any imperfect man ever could. This confirms the reason why Adam ‘was not deceived’. Logically then, Adam is not deserving of a second chance, otherwise all those at the end of the millennial reign who fail, now perfect like Adam (having been taught Jehovah’s ways) would deserve that second chance also. Their second chance is that now our Lord Jesus Christ will redeemed them from the snare of death and they have that chance in the millennial to prove their loyalty to God first, before anything or anyone else.
This is in complete agreement with what Pastor Russell wrote in ‘The New Creation’ page 714, where highlighting the need for the ransom that to state contrary to it is an absurdity, he stated ‘the perfect law represents divine justice, the same that dealt with Adam in the beginning, and the same that must pass upon mankind in the end’. It was God who passed divine judgement on Adam that they would die (Gen 3:17-19), which they did, as by rebelling it pitted the will of Adam against his Creator. To suggest other than the complete permanence of their death, would be agreeing with the deceiving of Satan, where he inferred that they would not die but their spirit would continue on, even if it was later in the resurrection. That cannot be so, as Romans 3:4 states, ‘Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being (or in this case Satan) a liar’.
Likewise also in 1 John 2:2 we read ‘He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world’. This Scripture is again used to say that the ransom is applied to the whole world, therefore it applies to Adam. Here again the Greek word used for world is kosmos, so the argument that has been presented already is sufficient for us to gain a true understanding that it refers to the world alienated from God through sin and imperfection. It does Not apply to Adam.
In conclusion, Jesus as the sacrificial lamb therefore brought about a reversal of the sin that Adam brought on the world. But as we have seen through the discussion, that redemption is open to the whole world does not mean that all will accept it (or hear it), it is only open to those who are obedient or put faith in Jesus. This is confirmed by the following where in John 3:16 & 36, it is recorded that ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life……….. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them’.
Just a few of my thoughts
Rgds
S.
Simon;
Thanks for joining in and giving your view and opinion. I think the question of Adams resurrection is quite simple.
Did not Jesus pay for Adams sin? How could Adams sin be paid for and yet Adam does not receive pardon? That is quite contradictive is it not?
Are we not all under the same condemnation as Adam? When any human dies do they not die under that same condemnation as in Adam?
You say not all will be resurrected, but Jesus who has they Keys to death and Hades said All in the grave will come out, “Those who did evil” as well! I’m a little inclined to believe Jesus.
Romans 5:19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.
The Ransom sets the Creation free!!! Thats all mankind “Adam and all his offspring”.
Notice there are two groups mentioned here; the “Sons of God” spirit begotten Christians and then “The creation”, the rest of mankind including all who are under condemnation in Adam.
You mention that you do not believe that all will die at Armegeddon. Well even those that do die at Armegeddon die in “condemnation in Adam” from which all receive a releasing from Romans 5:18. Those who die at Amegeddon do not recieve a new condemnation do they?
John 12:47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day;
Notice “Judge him in the last day” that is judgment day and everyone gets that day Romans 14:10 …..”For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God”
Those that die at Armegeddon die in their Adamic Condemnation and not some new Judgement…
Hi Brett and all
Apologies that im not able to answer that quickly…….
I understand what you are saying and as i stated in my previous post, through in depth Bible study, my understanding has changed (not the truth of Jehovah’s word).
The context of a number of bible verses is a must in understanding what we are being taught. the difference between knowledge and accurate knowledge. Again apologies as my reply is long, but also needs to be read in conjunction with my previous posts…..
Both Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 can be considered as complimentary texts and again our understanding of the context and the Greek words are essential to our understanding. The meaning of ‘in Adam all sinned’ (σε adam όλα αμαρτήσει ……se adam óla amartíse) in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is really translated such that Paul states emphatically that we are redeemed “in Christ” in the same way that we are lost “in Adam”. Barnes notes on the Bible indicates the meaning to be ‘by the act, or by means of Adam’.
Paul’s logic is that all humanity was “In Adam” that is in the loins of Adam when he sinned (see Gills exposition of the entire Bible), and therefore the whole human race was implicated, in Adam’s act of disobedience. It’s sometimes been explained by an analogy that we are on a bus that is being driven (by Adam) when there is an accident and all people on board die, it’s the drivers fault and everyone else suffers because of that driver. The driver will be punished fully, but it’s not the fault of the passengers.
We therefore have to understand grammatically, the Greek verb “sinned” in Roman 5:12. It is in the aorist tense, indicating the time and more especially the kind of action that occurred. Grammatically, then, “all have sinned” most naturally refers to a single past historical event, that being Adam’s sin and not to the continuing personal sins of his descendants over the centuries.
Four times in Romans 5:15-18 Paul explicitly states that it was Adam’s sin (not our own personal sins) that brought judgment, condemnation and death to the whole human race. So, the context of verse 12 clearly supports the idea that all die because “all have sinned” in Adam. (i.e. because we are aboard Adam’s bus). In verse 19 Paul sums up his argument with a perfectly clear statement: “By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.”
The logic of Paul’s argument in this passage is that Adam is a type, or pattern, of Christ. What happened to the human race in Adam’s loins is rectified for us in Christ. In a sense we could say that both actions involved all those that they represented. Therefore, if we insist that verse 12 means that all men die because “all have sinned” as Adam sinned, then obviously we will say that Adam will be resurrected. At the same time we must also make the analogy fit by arguing that all men live (or are justified) because all have obeyed as Christ obeyed. Such an argument turns justification by faith into salvation by works, the very opposite of Paul’s clear teaching in Romans. The analogy here is that since “all have sinned” by being in the loins of Adam and are therefore condemned to death in him, so likewise all who have obeyed in Christ will therefore stand justified to life in Him (verse 18).
The clear evidence of Romans 5 shows why Jehovah had it recorded, to clearly establish the true facts as some would still believe they can harmonize Paul’s logic in these verses with the concept that all people die because all have sinned personally the same as Adam. If this was the case then Adam would be resurrected, but it’s not the case therefore clearly the resurrection of Adam is not correct. So we have to be careful because Emperor Augustine introduced the heresy of the thought of ‘original sin’ into the Catholic church. Guilt, in a legal sense, always includes personal volition, will or responsibility, and so we could say that God does not hold us personally responsible for something in which we had no choice. Instead, only when we personally, consciously, deliberately, and persistently reject the gift of eternal life in Christ does the guilt and responsibility of sin and the second death become ours.
So basically we can say that Christ had the same but opposite effect on humanity that Adam had in the first place, it doesn’t mean that Adam would be resurrected. In like manner, through Bible Study research and understanding of what the scriptures say in a broader context, I can also prove that Judas Iscariot will also not receive a resurrection.
The creation as you quite rightly indicated in Romans 8, as the Greek signifies, is also in the aorist tense indicating a historical fact or consequence and shows it is subject to ‘vanity’ or ‘futility’. The Greek word therefore again relates to mankind in a general sense, not to Adam, but from when Adam had condemned mankind by his willful act.
For me, this type of discussions shows how important that we can look into a point, as the scripture says, Iron sharpens Iron and as Bible Students we can do this
Sincere regards
S.
Simon;
I am trying to get my head wrapped around your thoughts. It seems as though you have misunderstood me and think that I believe that the condemnation that Adam brought to all mankind somehow includes our personal sins as humans??? But i refer to Adams original sin that affects all mankind.
Simon to better understand your reasoning on the Ransom, please let me know are you one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, belonging to that Organization?
Hi Brett
Just a bit of my background…..
My father was a Protestant Vicar, my mother from a Baptist family. I studied Protestantism and found it totally hypocritical and so studied even with Born Again. But to be honest and i dont wish to offend them but they are a total waste of time, all emotion and no reasoning.
I think the writings of Pastor Russell set him apart from any person i have ever had the chance to study (and i wish, probably like yourself and many others, i could have met him). Though i admit i dont agree with all his teachings now as i believe we have the opportunity to ‘build on his building, the foundation already laid by Christ’. Through technology i can now look at Greek and study this (Pastor Russell and others never had that chance) though i am no Greek or Latin scholar i am from Acedemia having taught at the highest level at University.
I have read a lot of Rutherford publications, but there is even more that i disagree with, especially in Vol 7 of Studies and in the Harp or God etc. Though again i admit i respect what he has written.
I have read most of Jehovah’s Witnesses publications and again i dont agree with a lot. I have followed the Pastoral Bible Institute publications, the Dawn and the Herald etc, but again there are a lot i cant agree with.
For me, the scriptures are the most important, to openly discuss what is written, but i have always kept in mind there are many who would profess to be Jehovah’s servants and channel that he is using. But Jehovah makes it plain who are those that are real.
Whenever i read or discuss a teaching, such as the Ransom, or covenants etc, i check the writings of those that i feel are respected and truly trusted (especially Russell), proven servants of God and form my answer based on them and the scriptures.
Im wary of using such scholarly work as Gills exposition etc etc, as i dont know if they were worshipers of Jehovah, but as im no scholar in this area i look at as many as i can of Greek translators and form a consensus of reasoned thought based on the scriptures.
Hope this helps a little, as i have always and will always consider myself as a Bible Student of Jehovah God.
Rgds
S.
Simon
Thanks for your response, but im not sure if im reading that you are simply saying “NO” I am not one of Jehovahs Witnesses or like many witnesses are using the long way around to avoid saying that you are in order not to tie yourself to their doctrines?
As an EX-JW I am well aware of their techniques that are practiced such as not directly answering the question by diversion. I do not mean to offend you if you are not a JW, but you did not say that you were not a witness in your response.
So, simple yes or no! Are you a baptized dedicated Jehovah’s Witness?
Hi Brett
Simply put, i was baptised as a witness many years ago, served as an Elder for many years, resigned because i couldnt tolerate deception in the congregation i was in at the time. I am not disassociated or disfellowshiped.
I have the greatest respect for Pastor Russell and even when i was studying with the witnesses i took time to digest his writings. Its didnt lead me into conflict with the congregations i was in in GB in fact i was happy to express my thoughts based on what i had learnt from Pastor Russell.
So from an early time i took an interest in the Bible Students and formed contacts. Some of those in the southeast of GB were i was living were part of the Pastoral Bible Study movement from 1910 onwards and followed Johnston. One was a fantastic lady and very elderly when i conversed with her regularly and you could say she never married as she loved Pastor Russell. She died in the early 1990’s
I still regularly associate with many witnesses, though im skeptical of some i have met even now and at the same time i also regularly associated with Bible Students in London and Yorkshire in GB. In fact my cousin is in the Huddersfield area Brethren.
I have moved overseas and now have limited Bible Students association where i am in Manila, hence why i searched for a site for Bible Students that i could feel at home in and share common though sometimes differing views and thoughts.
Openness and communication are a must as far as im concerned and a help in understanding the Bible and what Jehovah has had recorded for us.
I often debate with witness Elders and explain where i feel the WT society is wrong, very wrong and extremely wrong, it doesnt bother me as i feel its Gods word and truly understanding it is the most important thing.
So you could say im a little controversial in my views but i will stand by Jehovah’s teaching as best i can understand. My views have changed over many years on subjects as ive researched in depth into them and discussed at length.
So as you can see from this post, im happy to be open with all the Brethren who read these posts as well. I will agree with what i feel is correct and disagree with what i feel is incorrect. While at the same time, if im convinced to change my view on any subject based on Jehovah’s word, and feel Jehovah’s Spirit move me, i will staunchly defend it to who ever.
Hope this helps?
Rgds
S.
Simon I am going to applaud your honesty and the sixth sense so to speak of Bret. Here we are playing to a huge audience and they are sincere ones learning and clearing up and Bret recognizing a little something and asking if you were a witness at one time allows us to really flow with this conversation.
To see that you and Bret as former Elders were able to come out and search for truths gives these other ones searching tremendous HOPE.
Now we know you also have must experience with what witnesses go thru. One that has never been one really can only surmise and not scatch the surface.
I for one anticipate this conversation more now and will zip back over Facebook and direct them to it. Take Care both of you. This is a much needed discussion.
Simon;
Thanks for your quick response as I woke in the middle of the night read your post and began to type…
Please send me your email I would like to share some things since we have a very similar background.. I too resigned because of learning deeper things and what i saw..
Here is mine powersinspec@hotmail.com
Hi Brett
Have sent you an email
Rgds
S.
Simon;
I do appreciate your deep research into the scriptures and the original Greek Koine, but I do believe that Jehovah made it quite clear or Black and White I should say when it comes to “The Ransom for All.”
Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.
Gods plan of salvation, being the loving Creator that he is, sent his son to Ransom mankind out from under Adams sin (Rom 5:15-19)
Every Human including Judas are under the same condemnation. All were judged to die in Adam. Jesus said those who did evil, unrighteous, or unjust acts however you want to translate it, in this life (John 5:28,29) are coming up in the resurrection, either to everlasting life or judgement. I do not believe a “NEW” condemnation came upon Judas or anyone else for that matter. I do understand that some believe that you receive that Ransom once (Heb 6, 10) and after that you no longer have a Ransom, but I would argue that Gehenna or second death is only possible durring and at the end of Judgement day (I have a clear explanation for those 2 chapters) Second death is not mentioned anywhere else other than in Revelation and I would say you cannot die a second death until you have died a “first”, that comes from our being sentenced in Adam.
It is not until the Resurrection that the Sentence in Adam is lifted. In fact in Revelation 20 it states that “New Scrolls” are opened and the “Scroll of Life”, therefore no one is even registered in that scroll of life until it is opened and the scriptures say it isn’t even opened until the 1,000 years begin even confirming that only the False prophet and Wild beast are in the lake of fire (2nd death), and they are not individuals but simply evil systems!
Jehovahs great plan of salvation rests in Christ Ransom followed by the development of a Bride class who are faithful until death and are sympathetic to mankinds plight being sympathizers. They will assist Jesus in setting the creation free from slavery to corruption which comes from Adam.
I do not think it is my place or yours for that matter to take “judgement day” from any person “Judas included especially when the scriptures say every man will stand before the judgement seat of God. And he has reserved that day to the future.
Now we can turn the Ransom into a bunch of twists and turns like the JW’s who say well it doesn’t require faith for those who died in the past “Literally billions”, except for those that died at the flood, oh and Solomon, and not and oh yes we were right Solom is, I mean he isn’t and the religious leaders of jesus day, and Judas, and let me see who else we can exclude and all those that die at Armegeddon even not allowing the Ransom to cover children and infants cause there it requires faith from their parents and oh yes it didn’t in times past and it does now….. Wait the confusion… Just let us GB members decide who gets the Ransom and a resurrection.
The simple fact is Jesus died giving himself as the corresponding price to Adam and becoming the mediator between God and man 1Tim 2:4-6. And he “JESUS” has the keys to death and Hell (Hades) and he aint gonna leave anyone behind!!!! (John 5:28,29 Acts 24:15 Rev 20:12-14)
Hi Brett
I will copy and past your post and comment where it seems necessary:-
…..I do appreciate your deep research into the scriptures and the original Greek Koine, but I do believe that Jehovah made it quite clear or Black and White I should say when it comes to “The Ransom for All.”…..
All i can say is to consider what i have discussed about the real meaning of the Greek words used in the various scriptures that you have cited.
…..Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes…..
Heb 6:1&2…Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment……
For me we need to move forward to spiritual maturity, that requires study and research and faith in God to lead us to accurate knowledge, not the elementary teachings
……Gods plan of salvation, being the loving Creator that he is, sent his son to Ransom mankind out from under Adams sin (Rom 5:15-19)….
Absolutely agree
The section about Judas and the new scrolls i’ll come to at another time
…….Jehovahs great plan of salvation rests in Christ Ransom followed by the development of a Bride class who are faithful until death and are sympathetic to mankinds plight being sympathizers. They will assist Jesus in setting the creation free from slavery to corruption which comes from Adam…….
Agree again, but we also need to understand what is meant by creation or creature as its sometimes rendered and who that refers to…see my other post.
I do not think it is my place or yours for that matter to take “judgement day” from any person “Judas included especially when the scriptures say every man will stand before the judgement seat of God. And he has reserved that day to the future.
Totally agree except where Jehovah’s word explicitly explains to us where a judgement has already been made….this proves that both Jehovah and Jesus clearly have everything in hand and builds our faith.
…..Now we can turn the Ransom into a bunch of twists and turns like the JW’s who say well it doesn’t require faith for those who died in the past “Literally billions”, except for those that died at the flood, oh and Solomon, and not and oh yes we were right Solom is, I mean he isn’t and the religious leaders of jesus day, and Judas, and let me see who else we can exclude and all those that die at Armegeddon even not allowing the Ransom to cover children and infants cause there it requires faith from their parents and oh yes it didn’t in times past and it does now….. Wait the confusion… Just let us GB members decide who gets the Ransom and a resurrection……
Agree…The only ones as far as im concerned who decide is Jehovah and Jesus, but like i said, there are instances where to me it is clear in the scriptures that a judgement has already been passed. Im glad im not the one to judge, im just happy to learn about the Love and Mercy of Jehovah, but also that he is Just and doesnt leave anything unpunished that should be punished (Ex 32:30-35)
….The simple fact is Jesus died giving himself as the corresponding price to Adam and becoming the mediator between God and man 1Tim 2:4-6. And he “JESUS” has the keys to death and Hell (Hades) and he aint gonna leave anyone behind!!!! (John 5:28,29 Acts 24:15 Rev 20:12-14)…..
Agree…he is corresponding price
Agree…he is the mediator between God and man
Agree…he has the keys
Disagree….read my post as to why i disagree
An intriguing discussion Brett, i really appreciate it, like i said Iron sharpens Iron and builds our faith
Rgds
S.
One thing I disagree with is that the flood was a judgement and no future judgement for them. The only unforgivable sin is the Holy Spirit which was poured out at Pentecost. How can someone who has not received this spirit sin against it? Like when JWs tried to tell us before 1995 that if we didn’t accept we are a goat. Well which is fair, never come to my door and I get 1000 years, or reject in 3 mins and die second death? If you would study more of Rutherfords stuff you’d see he was a whopping contradiction King.
Witnesses don’t understand that Angels ruled the world then and that was abolished.They took all wives that they chose and not doubt it was full of just their babies. I can imagine they messed with animal DNA also.
I agree with you that HOPE presented at Gen 3:15 applied to all of Adam and Eve progeny. Once Christ Ransomed us it applied to all that God has killed even. The flood is but one example. Angel killed 185,000 and of course Sodom and Egyptian army and all not under the blood firstborn. But he covered all men with his blood.
Simon,
I am surprised regarding your comment about the flood.
I wouldn’t say that everyone prior to the flood would be judged because we know from the New Testament that Enoch was one through whom the Lord sent prophesies.
“Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones.” (Jude 1:14)
Let me know what your think or if I misunderstood you.
Jeff
Hi Jeff
Sorry i dont think i commented about the flood so far…..I think that was Anon….
You are correct though, and maybe i didnt word some of my phrases properly when i was discussing the resurrection.
For example before Enoch, there were many who were faithful, such as Abel and others of Adam’s sons and daughters, wives and husbands etc. All died under condemnation of Adam.
We know at the time of Enoch though he was living in a terrible world and one ruled by especially on earth, wicked Angels and the Nephilim etc, but some maybe many, we dont know, who were expressing their faith in God died or were killed and of course Enoch who was taken. All such ones quite rightly would gain a resurrection.
S.
So anyone dying under the condemnation of Adam will have a resurrection. Are there any other types of condemnation?Jeff
Hi Jeff
Yes there is other condemnations……
Divine Condemnation and that spoken by Jesus, as examples that take it beyond Adamic condemnation the follow help us to understand that…..
Titus 1:14-16, Romans 1:26 & 27, Heb 10:26 & 27, Matt 23:24, Ex 32:7-10
Rgds
S.
Hi Brett and all
I know this is again a little controversial about those who i feel will not receive a resurrection.
I said i would comment on Judas Iscariot and show my understanding and research:-
It has sometimes been stated that Judas Iscariot was another victim of sinful imperfection, like all of the Disciples of Christ. They argued who was the greatest of them, they sought prominence, and Peter denied him and so on, while Judas was a thief and stole money from the box he held. As a consequence, the redemption price that Christ paid also covers the life of the imperfect man Judas Iscariot.
As we have already discussed, the Scriptures clearly indicate that not all in the grave will receive a resurrection, as not all are in the memory of Jehovah God, they have been judged unworthy of such grace already. But in this case, in Matthew 27:3 & 4 it tells us, ‘When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” In these verses it tells us that Judas was full of remorse, does that not mean he understood the severity of his actions?
Obviously Yes he did understand his actions, but the important thing to note is that in the Scriptures it never tells us that he went to find or look for Jesus (he knew where he was) or the Disciples or even went in prayer to Jehovah. So clearly he was ashamed of what he had done but his actions that followed never showed repentance. Besides, the Law stated in Deuteronomy 27:25, ‘Cursed is anyone who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person’; Judas was certainly a cursed man by his actions.
In line with this, Jesus himself stated at Matthew 26:24 ‘The Son of Man [Jesus Christ] will go just as it is written about him (referring to his death). But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born’. Gills exposition of the entire bible highlights the fact ‘if he had not been created…..signifying, that it is better to have no being at all, than to be punished with everlasting destruction; and which was the dreadful case of Judas…….’ Note it refers the expression to mean everlasting destruction, ie no resurrection. While the Pulpit commentary indicates the phrase to mean, ‘there is no hope here held out of alleviation or end of suffering, or of ultimate restoration. It is a rayless darkness of despair.’ The Greek word Ὁ ἌΝΘΡΩΠΟς ἘΚΕῖΝΟς, literally “THAT man” seems to indicate a predicate, or affirmation or assertion of a state, THAT is the designation of one who is considered already far off or in scriptural terms has been cut off with no hope ie no resurrection. Therefore we have no doubt that Jesus condemned the actions of Judas, for which there was no way that he could receive of the ransom sacrifice that our Lord was soon to offer.
Likewise in John 17:12 Jesus stated ‘While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction (NIV, son of destruction NWT, son of perdition KJV) so that Scripture would be fulfilled. The Greek word for ‘perdition’, is apwleia (ap-o’-li-a) correctly reflects eternal damnation or utter destruction. The only one lost was Judas, so correctly we can say that he would receive no covering from the ransom sacrifice, he has been utterly destroyed and will receive no resurrection.
To finally confirm this, we read in John 6:70, 71 that one of the 12 was to become a ‘slanderer’ or as the Greek word used is diabolos, or devil as it is translated, therefore we can literally say that the devil incarnated himself in Judas. Judas had undoubtedly already been stung by Jesus’ rebuke about the use of the money he was keeping hold of. And so in Luke 22:3 it tells us at this time ‘Satan entered into Judas,’ and uses the same Greek verb as used in John 6, likely in the sense that the traitorous apostle gave himself in to the will of the devil, allowing himself to be a tool to carry out Satan’s design to try and stop the Christ.
Interestingly, the same Greek word for ‘son of perdition’ is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, where it also identifies this one with the ‘man of sin [lawlessness]’. From which, once we have identified who this man of lawlessness is, we can confidently say, that such one(s) will also receive a judgement of complete destruction.
Thoughts??
Rgds
S.
Simon. You state as every Jw does about “God’s Memory”. John 5:28,29 says Graves. The NWT committee has inserted the world “Memorial” to do so. It does not appear in the Greek text. It’s a biased translation.
Hi Anon
Sorry to disagree, im not actually quoting from what the JW say, actually its from looking at the original Greek that i checked in depth. In the other post i explained this as follows and the words used in John 5:28 & 29.
There are two important words that need especially to be taken note of in these verses. Initially the Greek word ‘fauloV (fow’los)’ translated as evil but literally meaning ethically bad, base or wicked. Second is the Greek word ‘mnhmeion (mnay-mi’-on)’, which is correctly rendered not graves, but a memorial monument. Memorial in the sense that ones who are in the tombs are in the memory of Jehovah God, whereas just using the word graves may not necessarily mean that such ones are in the memory of God.
Hope that clarifies that its so important for us to look at the original words used. Though as i said im no Greek or Latin scholar, i have to rely on trusted renderings, which in this instance does translate as a memorial monument.
Rgds
S.
You can disagree all you want but it doesn’t mean anything Memorial. That’s what Jw have done to push their interpretation that not all will be resurrected. It does mean grave. Here’s the reference.
http://biblehub.com/greek/3419.htm
Anon, I just did a little informal survey with some Christians today just to see if they agreed with and accepted the first half of
!Cor. 15:22 (NWT) “For just as in Adam All are dying'” and
1 Cor 15:21 first half only “For since death is through a man'”.and
Rom. 5:12 “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned”
Everyone asked agreed that Adam alone is the reason we can’t not sin. But he is only one guy how can all be plunged into death because of one little man. Many admitted that was a lot of power for one man but they believed what the Bible said and accept it.
So I said let’s read the 2nd half of those same scriptures since you just accept it and it is simple, ALL MEN SIN AND DIE BECAUSE OF ONE MAN>
1Cor 15:22(NWT) ‘” so also in the Christ ALL will be made alive.'”
1Cor 15:'”resurrection of the dead is also through a man.'”
Rom. 5:18 (Jerusalem bible) “Again, as one man’s fall brought condemnation on everyone, so the good act of one man brings everyone life and makes them justified.”
Ro. 5:18 (Revised Standard Version) ” Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for ALL men.” (The capitalization of ALL was added by me, not in the text)
There was silence before speaking. It was agreed more Christians think Adam is more powerful than Jesus and that Christ can’t undue ALL that Adam brought on Mankind.
It is simple but it is what the Bible says. I find that we as humans make it hard to understand sometimes on the simple truths of the Bible.
As a witness I was like all witnesses deathly afraid of the devil, wouldn’t touch anything I thought might have come from a practicer of spiritism.
But he does not have the POWER that God has, yet many witnesses never feared Jehovah and especially Jesus like they did the devil. They will undo the works of the devil and Adam. Jesus has undone everything on ALL.
“1 Timothy 2:5-6New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [a]given at [b]the proper time.
2:6 Or to be given. Not all sorts of men.
I enjoyed seeing the look on other Christians face when I did this.
Hi Anon and all
I dont wish to force the point of this discussion as we all live by are own reasoning’s on the scriptures and how we respond. And i believe the sincerity of the Brethren, so will never doubt that. Neither as bible students do we want to be gullible and listen to the reasoning’s of man or a body who may set themselves up, but only that of God. That means we look to the Spirit to guide and help us in our understandings and it WILL lead us when we read and pour over the scriptures.
I suggest you look again at that reference:-
http://biblehub.com/greek/3419.htm
as it clearly states:- a tomb, sepulcher, monument…….by definition (not short definition)
Not only that, but when we look at a reference, then we have to look at the context of the scriptures where it is used in and understand the grammatical structure to see what is being stated. I’m no scholar at this as i said, so i rely on those that i believe have been sincere in this. So again, please look at Gill’s and Barnes notes on the bible and others too that are all listed in that web link. You will find that the consensus of opinion of these and other scholars is that it’s a remembrance or sepulchral cenotaph and from the root Greek word ‘mneme’
John 8:28, 29 therefore when you read this again and what the context of the Greek and grammatical structure clearly points that to mean, not grave in this instance, but monument or memorial. Please see my other post.
So im not defending NWT, im just stating the facts as best i understand and know it and from reputable sources that i believe are sincere. Again, we must as Bible students do that for ourselves and prove our faith as Acts 17:11 tells us.
So instead of saying biased translations, i look carefully at all the translations i can get my hands on and used the NIV and NKJV versions first and not the NWT.I personally believe its important to not perceive the NWT as a way of stating a biased version to suit JWs, but its more important for us as BS to look at what the scriptures are saying by getting a correct understanding. Then when we perceive a wrong understanding, checking it thoroughly and making a note of the correct view and following that. There are a large number of errors i perceive in the NIV and NKJV as well as NWT, but overall i can use all three and more versions as its how the scriptures affect our reasoning’s. 2 Cor 10: 4,5 & Heb 4:12, 13
Rgds
S.
I agree totally with Jacquline. The word I sent you in Greek
Is not memorial. You’ve inserted it Into the page sent you. A memorial is what we call a tomb or grave. The word does not mean memorial tomb. The JWs have inserted this word to push the doctrine that not all will be resurrected. After this was set in place now they can start labeling those who won’t be resurrected and not in God’s Memory. As Jacqueline showed ALL MEANS ALL. Not some or all sorts of. You may want to look this up again. Because now you have those who are not spirit begotten going into second death who have sinned against the Holy Spirit. When you say Jehovah will kill off those in Armageddon and not resurrect them is the same doctrine as saying that God will put those in hell that don’t accept now. Now is not the time for the salvation of the world. It is only for the church class. Not everyone else. So to kill them
Off at Armageddon is unscriptural and frankly it’s against the Divine Plan.
Hi Anon
I dont wish to offend anyone, so i’ll leave it at the fact we agree to disagree. Just one point i wish to make, to suggest i’ve inserted the word memorial into the website that you and i both quote from is ludicrous, especially as i dont have the website rights to do so, and if you read it its actually there….monument or memorial…..no problem for me at all, i have proven to myself that i understand Jehovah’s word of truth….we all stand before the judgement seat of God on our own merits….we never judge anyone.
Maybe its an understanding of the concept of the word monument or memorial, its not the first time that even English speaking people misunderstand English words……As an academic it happens often in my profession….That’s why its so important to confirm the definition and understand it.
The rest, i suggest you re-read my points as thats not what i was saying at all. I’m happy for them to stand on their own merits from a scriptural point of view and not to be interpreted any other way.
Sincere regards to all in Jehovah’s service.
S.
Also whether judas is resurrected it not is not up to us. However it says ALL will
Come from their graves. Jehovah’s Witnesses have inserted the word “Memorial” to show their bias. It says ALL will come from the graves. Some Bible Students believe he will be resurrected some don’t . Some don’t. However judas was considered different than the rest of the world of mankind. He was personally enlightened by the messiah as a consecrated one. 99.999999999% are NOT. To say Adam won’t have one or that those of Sodom won’t is a way for the JWs to show that they can end up like them if they leave the “ark” it’s a fear tactic.
Hi Anon
Absolutely agree, the judging is clearly in the hands of Jehovah and Jesus Christ, no body else and certainly not any group of people.
If you look at my other posts also, you can see the explanation of the Greek for ‘All types, kinds, sorts etc people’. I do not follow blindly what others have stated, i have done my own research to prove that i am happy with what the scriptures are saying as the Bible Student i hope i am. This is essential as it motivates and builds our faith, so that it cant be easily shaken.
So all i can say is that im in no way judging, im actually just looking at and understanding the words in this case about Judas, from what Jesus said himself. Thats why i said its controversial for a lot of people, but happy to share with everyone what i have found and understand. The scriptures were written through direction of Jehovahs Holy Spirit, so im happy to be led by that spirit and not fight against it.
Rgds
S.
If that’s what you choose to believe then do so. However The only ones who can go into second death are those who have sinned against the holy Spirit. If we have people going into second death they have to first be spirit begotten in the Gospel Age. The errors of the JWs is they have everyone who is not part of their religion going into second death. To say that someone at the door rejected the message and they will die in Armageddon and not have future hope is error. God is just. 1000 years or 3 mins at the door. ?That’s not full knowledge. No matter how much research you do the word “memorial” does not appear in John 5:28,29. All means all. Not all sorts of. It’s shows ALL will come out of the graves. Good and evil. Not all
Sorts of good and all sorts of evil. Only those of the bride class can go into second death. Not the world of mankind.
Hi Simon, I understand you are quoting the NWT on Memorial tomb, if we go with that then definitely ALL will come out as Jehovah remembers everyone that has lived and he knows when a sparrows dies. He calls the stars by name. Some resurrection will be to life and some to judgement. Would this mean the ones that the watchtower says is not in his memorial tombs? The ones in Sodom saw angels, but they are sons of Adam and so are those from the flood. There are so many instances in the Bible where Jehovah has himself decreed someone should die.
David and Bathsheba’s son is just one example. 185,00 in one night by his decree. Pharoah and his army by his decree and he hardened his heart.
By letting his son ransom ALL of mankind they have an opportunity to make a choice without a handicap placed on them by their father.
In the flood he changed the rulership from angels and killed off of their sons.
I guess what I am saying is it is simple the way Jehovah has designed it to Ransom Mankind. The judging of who will and won’t from the instant of time that we got to see from a few paragraphs is not sound reasoning to me.
Adam, Eve Judas all are judged by the instance we saw their lives. If satan entered Judas was he under full control of his senses. How would he have reacted if satan was not in him? Just a thought on who is the bad one here. It is my hope that God is not like that for none of us could repent from bad choices. His way is simple our way gets all complicated. He is a ransom for ALL as I see it. Enjoying the comments and so glad we can reason back and forth.
PS: Scientist can’t accept the simple words “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Yet Jesus said Peace be still to the Wind and rain and it happened. He said to the fig tree never will you bear fruit. He halted the death of the army officer’s child and wasn’t even there. He raised the dead. He spoke the word and by the will of God it was done. God thinks it and says it and all creation obeys except man.
We make it hard when in the Bible it even says with the sword of his mouth Christ will bring nations under subjection and will rule in the midst of his enemies.
The governingbody has him acting like a wild man, letting little children ride into holes in the earth on bicycles. They make it so complicated.
Genesis 3:15 and Adam was said dust tho art and dust tho shall return, we as humans add a whole lot of other stuff to that even.
But I guess that is what keeps us digging and Jehovah even knew that and wrote the Bible in such a way that we would stay interested.
Just the way I am able to accept and grapple with it. My logic is not written in stone, I am always willing to see another side to it but still loving this interchange with my brothers.
When I say inserted it I didn’t mean you actually wrote it on the website. I meant that you inserted your interpretation. We have many academics in the Bible Students that will tell you you’re incorrect. Think for a minute show me one scripture where many won’t be resurrected. Show me where the word memorial tomb means Jehovah’s memory and that many aren’t In it!’ See it’s all your interpretation. Of death aquits a man of his sins then why wouldn’t all be resurrected? Only those who sin against the Holy Spirit go into second death in this age. Only anointed can sin against it. You’ve missed the whole point in the Divine Plan. If God is judging the world
Of mankind right now for second death then there would be no need for the millennial Age. Only the church class is on trial for life. Yes we can disagree. But you’ve missed the whole divine plan of you believe Jehovah is killing off those in Armageddon and not resurrecting them. Again that JW theology band you may have “proved”
It your self but we know that incorrect. LDS have proved many things to themselves and we know it’s incorrect. You can be an “academic” all you want. But so where the Pharisees and they were very incorrect.
Hi Anon
Sincere apologies if i offended you by stating openly what i have found, and thats the beauty of this site, and i think Pastor Russell and others would be proud that we defend our faith in the true God Jehovah, lets just keep in mind that true BS will always follow 1 Pet 3:8-10……
I will only quote what i consider is a reliable interpretation, not my own. Who am i, but just happy to be a servant of God and to have come to know his son. But that means that i will never allow others to force my faith into their square hole……each of us must prove our faith. Jesus had learned men, the Dr Luke and pharisees like Nicodemus and Joseph, as well as unlettered and ordinary men who followed his ways. Its not about who we are, its all about being humble in heart and moldable when we learn.
I wish you the very best
Rgds
S.
Simon;
To say some will not receive a resurrection is say that some will never receive a Judgment before God and that the death they received in Adam is final. The Ransom on the other hand provides a guarantee!
Acts 17:31 Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”
Judge the inhabited earth in righteousness… Thats a guarantee!
The whole purpose of choosing a bride for Christ is to use them as sympathizers along with Jesus to extend mercy to “All mankind by redeaming them from that condemnation in Adam and giving them a fair chance at life.
Acts 3:20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. 22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets, in fact, from Samuel on and those in succession, just as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 YOU are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God covenanted with YOUR forefathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.
Notice verse 23 “any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”
That is in the recreation Matt 19:28 or during judgement day which is 1,000 years a period of standing before the throne of God that if they do not listen to that prophet (Jesus) then they will be cut off….
Bret (B.S.)
Jehovah God does not change. We agree there. But He makes changes to things when H e has to. Gen. 3:15 would never have been made if Adam and Eve had not sinned. Why would Brother Russell have to be replaced someday? He died. And many times Brother Russell would say I don’t know the answer to that. Here is another which he said, “You see it is good to be able to say you do not know, sometimes.” Page Q14 Q14:1
What about mistakes that Pastor Russell made? Why we ever think the GB would not make mistakes? Q35:3 Has the three questions for baptism. Part of one requirement is, “money, time, influence–all tot he Lord, to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death.”
Q349 2,700 dollars accepted.
What did he say about sending your children to college? Q58 “My advice is, as stated through the Watch Tower, that I advise all Christians not to send their children to colleges or universities; for if they do, they will risk a great deal through infidelity and unbelief, and they will be doing their children a positive injury.”
Q56:1 a mistake in Tower, “Unfortunately, an article appeared in the Watch Tower some time ago – and I did not scan the letter quite as carefully as I should otherwise have done, and I overlooked this little feature.”
Mistakes are made by God’s servants and changes need to take place to correct them. But at Gen. 3:15 this promised one never changed. But from Adam to the flood God used one channel for salvation at the flood. What is a channel? A means of communications, direct something towards a particular purpose. Pass along or through a particular channel. God’s Son said this would take place!
Would humans do it? Would people who had the scriptures of salvation like it? “However, some of the Pharisee’s from the crowd said to him: Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” But in reply he said: I tell you, if these remained silent, the stones would cry out.”
Picture in these end times stones crying out, “this good news of the kingdom.” Over and over. Would it do any good? And after being resurrected Jesus added something, go therefore and make students of God’s word and baptize them and have them be obedient in all things.
So Noah was the one used to channel the information. Then Abraham and some of his offspring were used. Then Moses and the Law. And then someone showed up about 1,500 years after the Law was given.
Changes and changes would take place all through those years. God ripped 10 tribes away. The quickly for the most part left him. So about 250 years later they were taken away. A few mingled with the new ones planted there and they even brought priests in with the Scriptures of Moses.
Was that the way of salvation there? They had Moses writings. Why the lady at the well said they were awaiting the Messiah. She had accurate knowledge, but did she have the truth. Could she share her beliefs and give life saving information? No! Why not? Jesus told her you worship what you do not know. He also told her that salvation springs from the Jews.
Would it be little separate groups who believe different things? Nope, they would be unified. S o when 1,659 years ended with the flood, it was one way, one channel. Then the next channel would lead them to the Messiah about 2,300 years later. Then in the 1800,s small groups of men began studying the Bible, and big things would began to take place. And Brother Russell started the Watch Tower to be a channel a means of communication towards a particular purpose.
Even Brother Russell thought it would be remarkable for God to discard it. He did not discard Noah during 120 years. The Law for over 1,500 years leading to Messiah stayed on the same channel although the Samaritans had the Law of Moses but were wrong. Will look forward to your discussion back.
Francis
Francis;
Thank you for expressing your view and beliefs. Let me start by saying Russell did not believe any man should “bind your conscience” but that we all have Liberty in Christ and that is what I appreciate about the Bible Students, is that they are followers of Christ or followers of men?
Therefore, though the majority of Bible Students believe Russell was the Faithful Steward that is spoken of at Matt 24:45-47 there are those that believe Jehovah used him but that the parable is simply a christian who displays watchfulness and helps to feed his fellow brothers in a spiritual sense through being vigilant.
Russell did not consider himself to be “This slave” but simply one who displays this quality.
I too believe Russell was used by Jehovah in helping in the last days reveal many truths but I do not consider him as fulfilling a prophecy about a “faithful slave”.
I simply view this just as it is a very simple parable like the other two that follow (10 Virgins and 5 Talents).
I will go a little further in addressing your rrsponse and explain further my view this evening
Francis;
It seems after reading your view that the “Faithful Slave”, in your view is the legal entity Watchtower and not the individuals that make up the GB?
It also seems that you believe in something similar to “apostolic succession”, because who is to say that the next guy or group of guys who take the keys is still in an approved state with God to be his spokesman? Is all because they are handed to the keys to Watchtower the legal corporation?
I have another question for you.
According to the teachings of the Watchtower for many decades was that the Faithful Slave was in its singular form and therefore this could not be a single individual because he would have to be nearly 2,000 years old and so it would have to be not an individual but a composite group…. 1981 Watchtower “Who is the Faithful Slave”
“That “slave,” according to Jesus’ description, would be on hand when the Lord departed for heaven and would still be alive at the time of Christ’s return. Such a description could not possibly fit an individual human. But it does fit Christ’s faithful anointed congregation viewed as a whole.” United in Worship of the Only True God p.119
So unnoticed to the Majority of JW’s in October 2012 at the annual meeting this was changed to the first appointment given in 1919 and the appointment to be put over everything would be during his arrival sometime in the future.
The watchtower changed its doctrine without an explanation!
1) how is it that Jesus could appoint the slave over the kitchen duty of giving food at proper time and then go away only to return and find him doing so?
2) If Jesus has been present since 1914 where did he leave to after 1st appointment?
3) If the Slave Class is under Christ direction and spirit while he is present then why the question “If he finds them doing so”? That is feeding the houshold while he is gone?
4) what scripture shiws that only the GB would be fulfilling that slave?
It is clear there is no explanation and the GB was only consolidating power through this new so called “Light”
I believe Russell describes just what the GB is here;
Vol. 4 pgs 473-474 “Armageddon” describes the False Messiah’s
“The deceivers here described certainly are not the fanatics who from time to time have claimed to be Christ and have deceived but few possessed of any degree of common sense and judgment”…. “Various Protestant denominations, although they acknowledge no head except Christ, nevertheless practically make their Synods, Conferences and Councils into heads, from which they take their laws, usages, and confessions of faith, instead of the one only head of the one true Church”….. “For a large period and to a greater or less extent these systems of men have so counterfeited the genuine Messiah (head and body) as to partially deceive many
Here Russell explains Matt 24:23-25 and its description, synods and councils fits the governing body.
Francis;
Interesting statement you made here
“Would it be little separate groups who believe different things? Nope…… Then the next channel would lead them to the Messiah about 2,300 years later.
In Jesus day was not Jehovahs spirit still upon Isreal? Was not the High Priest selected by Jehovah?
Excuse me if I am wrong but was not the High Priest a Pharisee? Was not the Sanhedrin Jewish High Court full of both Pharisees, Scribes and perhaps the Sadusees and possibly others of that day? Which group did Jehovah choose, the Pharisees or Scribes?
If this is in Reference to Bible Students as different little groups? Are they not united by the Ransom for All doctrine and being Baptized into Christ Jesus…
The organization and Channel theology was introduced by Rutherford. This was his way to control all even creating a new baptism “Baptized not into Christ Jesus but an Organization”
Rutherford also introduced control through fear doctrine..
Rutherford’s Armegeddon vs. Russell’s Armegeddon
Rutherford introduced many organizational and doctrinal changes that shape the current beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He imposed a centralized administrative structure on the majority of Bible Students and introduced his idea of Armegeddon. He formulated the current Witness concept of Armegeddon as God’s war on the wicked.
Russell on the other hand taught Armegeddon was the final stand of worldly rulerships both ecclesiastical and governmental. A time in which Gods kingdom would be established after defeating the current rulerships and to bring about judgment day (1,000 yrs) and final At•One•ment of mankind
What do the scriptures say it is?
Dan 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”
1Co 15:24 …….. “brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”
Very good points presented here Bret. I think we are getting to be bottom of the matter…
Is the Watchtower the Channel of God?
This is something I believe many Witnesses need to ponder! Those of you who are on this site reading regularly probably have already pondered this question.
The Bible tells us not to put our trust in men Psalms 146:3 to whom no salvation belongs…
Do the scriptures at Matt 24:45-47 say that the Slave here described would have all say over Christ’s followers and their beliefs and conscience?
And why do they constantly have so many changes in belief that even if they do not agree with are not allowed to question?
In fact why does the Bible encourage us to question all things Jon 4:1 even as the Boreans did Acts 17:11 yet as a Witness you cannot question anything the Governing body decides?
Where does all of this authority come from? not from the words found in Matt 24:45-47
To Caz and all Bible Students.
The reason why all Bible Students are included is because many can find this for you. I believe it is in the questions people asked Brother Russell.
Question was, Do you think Jehovah God will continue to use the WT as the channel for God’s people?
His answer was, that he would find it remarkable if God did not continue to use it.
He used the Law for over 1500 years and then gave a better way. In Noah’s he gave about 120 years. Is it reasonable to think he would use the seventh messenger for 40 Years and then stop?
Now remember, the WT in his day had righters who put things in the WT and then left the truth. Did this happen after the Pastor died? Yes, more than once. Was it inspired in the Pastor’s day? No! Is it today? No!
Would recommend for you to talk with Peter, he will find it for you.
Also I believe all or most of the writings are done by non anointed ones but the GB says whether to put in print or not.
Francis;
Just to add to your comment a little… The JW’s have changed major doctrine about every decade or two and this is really due to the turnover of GB members and as a new dominant spirit takes over and along comes another change… But the truth really never changes with Jehovah does it?
They claim the light gets brighter but proverbs is really speaking about the path of the righteous not new discovery every couple years in Gods word..
For the consecrated Christian baptized into Christ Jesus the only change really is clarity… There is one God and One truth and Yahweh makes that clear…
May the Lord Christ Jesus bless your efforts in seeking that clarity
Bret hello. I posted the australian trials where the governing body member admitted as Casenovi said that they are not even appointed by God and are not the only ones God deals with. Barbara Anderson have most of the words on her site. In a New York article to the city of Warwick they presented themselves as Real estate firm that buys up historic buildings and restore them. They do tell the truth when before authorities sometimes but feed the flock something else because the flock often won’t look at news do research on the internet etc. If fact they said that they have done all the research that is need and for the flock to look it up in their publications. They average witness follows this or another class uses the organization for social purposes. My sons are in the 35-50 age group and there are thousands of them that admit it is a social organization where they have friends.
I have been putting myself in kingdom halls or being with elders or publishers to see their reaction to how I say the organization is. Most really agree but say my whole family is here and it is better than “christendom”.
I have learned to accept that it is what works for them. Most that I talk to say they wouldn’t want to run for the upward call, that paradise earth is okay with them as living is living.
I agree with them wholeheartedly on this. The 30-50 age group let me talk to them and they say they don’t really read the watchtower that much and are often outside with the baby to let the wife enjoy herself. Many of the females are getting disfellowshipped for a few months after marrying outside of the organization. Quite a few have gotten pregnant because they want a family and a husband. They talk to me because I was always the cool sister in the hall and all of the kids would congregate in my basement and my yard. One of my sons and nephew are professional DJ’s that do all the weddings and huge 700 attendee parties. So this was a great group to talk too and get a sense of what is really going on.
I would never want to upset another person’s spiritual walk to do them harm. Only if they are questioning and have reached a spiritual relationship. Most I talk to including elders say they will check out what I say about armageddon from a copy of Studies in the Scriptures as many can find one in the boxes from the library or on line. I give this website out sparingly as I like for them to find it on their own. Talking about deep things only appeal to a very minute amount of friends. I am going to continue my little survey this summer in my RV so I have a place to sleep.LOL
In summary, witnesses will be able to help the rest of the armaggedon survivors understand the ancient worthies and the situation more quickly. They have the base.
I would love to do more direct quotes but so many of my family and friends are on this site now and I wouldn’t want them to be identified and punished for anything I say. I listened to a series on North Korea and the organization is sort of run like that. In two’s and the buddy system will tell on the other one. Take Care.
Jacquline…
Yes, I get much of the same response from that age group as well. I still have quite a few that speak to me and even ones who do undercover so to speak. I pose all sorts of questions to them especially about the “Ransom for All” vs “All sorts of” and what the true meaning of Jesus words “A Ransom for Many” means Rom 5:15,19
Once they realize they cannot answer i get the same response that used to get at the door when talking to the nominal church memeber “I am happy where I am”. Who would have thought I would have gotton that kind of reponse from a JW?
Yep, it is like working door to door. Baptist born Baptist bred Baptist till I die, is what witnesses say just like the system that they are a part of Babylon the Great.I was told I broke the chain in our family, that they thought all of us would be in the new system. None are aware that the governing body just started this stupidity since about late seventies, but they grew up knowing only a governing body. The older ones know something different but many have died off. A lot of older ones actually came in as adults so they are new also less than fifty years.
I have decided to just let my life be a witness and let them see my peace and that I haven’t been killed by God. Hopefully they will awaken to at least check the internet for answers. It is full of the truth about the governing body because so many are being used to expose the totalitarian regime using God’s name to pull off their hoaxes.
It works because some of my relatives talk openly about what is going on after observing I am doing okay. They will often say I know you won’t tell as they express themselves.
Jacqueline;
Yes the GB is being exposed as a bunch of corrupt delusional men with a God complex. The more they present themselves on things like JW broadcast the less their mystic will have a hold on so many. Many are waking up and their growth is stagnating and their money is drying up. They wont look the same in 5 years, just like they are almost unrecognizable from when I first joined in the 90’s, nothing but a corporation claiming to have a monopoly on salvation.
Bret thank you for mentioning your talk about the Ransom. It got on my mind that maybe I need to take that approach rather than Armageddon. It stayed with me for hours thru the night. I had decided to stop speaking and let my works be a witness but God said NO! You will declare my hope of salvation for man.
Bret I wasn’t due back home until the end of April. I drove 9 hours friday slept in Atlanta then drove 11 hours to my home. 5 Relatives were 2 hours ahead of me and one already there. A grandmother and mother is dying, she is a witness for over 75 years. I came to babysit everybody’s children from out of town plus give comfort.
This morning as I served breakfast, I got Bold. I spoke about the RANSOM being for all, about the Bible being for the ones wanting to be with Christ to help, about Adam not knowing the consequences of his actions and that Eve came from Adam so she is Ransomed.
Instead of rebuke from the witnesses I got discussion and they understood and agreed it made sense.
I was afraid to speak in my own house but you thru Spirit told me how to make it have effect and bring glory to God.
You should have been here as we cried over learning that all plus Adam and Eve and some bad cousins are ransomed!
They are gone out to the hospital but I am in tears as I write you.
I will speak up at the dinner afterward this time and tell everyone why I left and that heaven is what I run for if it comes up. Nobody in my family knows this and only 2 sons have hinted at it. It is to let them know God is not dead he can send Holy spirit to help them understand.
Normally I wouldn’t attend a funeral in Chicago because it is my old congregation from 30 years ago but I am going and afterwards I will pray and answer what I have learned about the Ransom. I will talk about life not Armageddon. About Christ and let the spirit speak.
She doesn’t have many days left. The liason are even backing down. Got a house full of children so got to go, parents have left to sit and wait.
Hi Brett
Appreciate that this is the first time ive answered to your point and by the way ive read some amazing thoughts on this site that really focus as Bible Students should do…..
I too often asked this similar type of question and of course had to thoroughly research the subject of what our Lord Jesus Christ said and compared this to what the Apostle Paul said. Why a comparison? because you have to understand what Jesus said at John 5:28 & 29 and what the Greek words convey there and in other verses to understand what Paul was referring to.
Ive come to this conclusion thru my research and reading of the verses and prayer, as regards these thoughts? Apologies as its a little bit lengthy…..
To set the scene, at John 5, there are two important words that need especially to be taken note of in these verses. Initially the Greek word ‘fauloV (fow’los)’ translated as evil but literally meaning ethically bad, base or wicked. Second is the Greek word ‘mnhmeion (mnay-mi’-on)’, which is correctly rendered not graves, but a memorial monument.
From this now we can build on what Paul said. at 1 Timothy 2:4-6, where it says that Christ gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all people and that all people [men] be saved. But what does that really mean?
Gill’s exposition of the entire Bible and Greek words used, highlights the following point:- This ransom was given for “all”; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust……But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in the word to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude……… or rather it intends that Christ gave himself a ransom for all sorts of men, for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition, of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners, and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, for both Jews and Gentiles;
Then there is also the question raised regarding 1 Timothy 4:10, where we read, ‘That is why we labour and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people (NIV & KJV, all sorts of men NWT), and especially of those who believe’. How can we reconcile again the thought that there is a savior of all people or all sorts of men? because the phrases in different bible versions imply a very different meaning. Both Gill’s exposition of the entire Bible and Barnes’ notes on the bible, clarify what the Greek phrases used in this verse imply or mean. They and other commentaries make this distinction, ‘This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed – “especially of those that believe.”………. He is thus their Saviour – and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.’
Or as it is alternatively explained :- Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact. Clearly then a more correct rendering of this verse must be all sorts (or all kinds) of men, not all people who have ever lived per se.
My reasoning’s on this at least when i read and understood the Greek, Westcott and Hort is excellent for understanding these words …
Thnx
S.
Simon;
Nicely worded. I appreciate the time you took to look into that information. Where I disagree is in the fact that Jesus died a “corresponding ransom”, in other words just as Adam’s sin brought death to every human and no one can get out from under that sentence of death; Jesus brought a justification of life through his one righteous act or Ransom to “all men”. Therefore just as no man can get out of the sentence of death no man can get out of the sentence to a resurrection and day of Judgment (Rom 5:18).
The scriptures teach that “All in Adam are dying, yet “All in christ will be made alive”. This is confirmed by both jesus and Paul (John 5:28, 29, Acts 24:15)
Acts 17:31 says all men will stand before the judgement seat of God; the only way this is possible is if every man receives a resurrection. Therefore the Ransom gives everyone a chance at life and that is why 1Tim 2:4-6 says “All men will be saved” that is brought out from under the sentence of death in Adam to a resurrection and life in Christ or I should say a justification of life. Every Human remains under the sentence of death in Adam (Rom 5:12) and every human pay’s for the inhereted sin by dying (Rom 6:7, 21) wages of sin is death… Therefore all men are saved out from under the sentence to death in Adam and resurrected to Judgment Day, or you could call it a probationary period. This really is the At•One•Ment, where each person under the restoration and Rule of Christ have an opportunity to serve Yahweh through his Son and his Kingdom (Acts 3:20-24) The prophets spoke of this Golden Age of Christ and weather or not ones would respond to this Gracious gift of God.
The Ransom is the undeserved kindness or gracious gift from God; it is not of works, it is not of faith, no one can possibly earn it. Where you are confused is understanding that Christ extended an invitation to his followers to become justified in him now and during the Gospel age and to receive a crown of life and to partake in the Kingdom and help extend Gods mercey to the entire ransomed mankind and that is how Jesus becomes the mediator between god and man.
Matt 20:28 “Aransom for many” what is many? Paul demonstrates in Romans 5:15 and 19 that many means “All” because we know the sentence to death came upon All men.. He even contrasts it with all in verses 16 and 18…
If not for the “Ransom for All”, no one would receive a resurrection because it would just end at death and no need for everyman to stand before the judgement seat of God! Why because the sentence was death, that was the penalty.
The gift on the otherhand was Christ’s sacrifice and Attonement for mankind to 1st gather those who in the Gospel age are justified to receive the gift of life and more. All the rest of mankind are given the gracious gift of a resurrection to life and Judgment. This is the millennium Rule of Christ and his joint heirs.
Simon
I feel from reading your comments that you believe Jehovah is a just God and would agree that one of his strongest attributes is Justice.
Therefore I would like to pose a question to you.
We understand that Adam died and brought the sentence of death upon all men do we not?
What did God require in return to pay the Ransom price? The Bible refers to Jesus as the 2nd Adam in 1Cor 15, thus indicating that Jesus was adams equal; that is a perfect human life in place of a perfect human life correct?
Anti•lutron or corresponding price…
So if Jesus paid the required price did he not meet Jehovah’s righteous requirement in order to buy back what was lost?
Since adams condemnation came upon all men does it not make sense that Christ justification comes upon all men?
If God takes away that Ransom from any man it is paid for would it not violate his justice since the price has been paid???
In other words we are all under the same condemnation that Adam was under and therefore when Jesus paid the price we are all taken out from under that condemnation.
This does not happen until after we have died in Adam, that we receive Life in Christ. Now this is the Justification to life that Jesus brought to all men as spoken of in Romans 5:18.
The 15 chapter of 1Corinthians (Resurrection chapter) makes this clear. Even the anointed in Christ still die and then are resurrected or else Why do we die as Christians?
It is only after the death in Adam that the Ransom makes possible the Life in Christ..
Romans the 7th chapter makes this clear that Christians justification means that we are not held guilty, but have a clean conscience and can remain loyal and receive that crown of life in Christ.
” all or most of the writings are done by non anointed ones but the GB says whether to put in print or not.” Is correct.
Is this the what you where referring to? [R4194 : page 190]
SOME INTERESTING LETTERS
DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:—
I suppose you know that there are a number of publications being circulated by persons who have, at some time, been enlightened by Present Truth. These publications teach the Truth to some extent, but are considerably mixed with error in regard to important doctrines. The channel which the Lord has used for the blessing of his people during this time of the “Harvest” has been the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, and it continues to be so used, and we render praise to our heavenly Father for the benefits so conferred.
Now what shall be our attitude toward those other publications which claim to be channels of instruction? A good many of us have listened to their claims and have bought the publications, only to find that our money (the Lord’s money) has been wasted and the publication of pernicious literature has been encouraged. Of the 30,000 TOWER subscribers (more or less) perhaps one-third might be reached by the plea that these other channels contain more “light,” and it is no more than a business proposition to put these things on the market, relying on the claim of the Truth friends to be “students” in order to sell the goods. No matter how unauthoritative may be the “teaching” how could its claim be investigated without encouraging its circulation?
I realize that all that might be said against buying anything not published by the WATCH TOWER, has been urged upon Nominal Christians to prevent them from being “poisoned” by the Truth, and anything we may now say will be used to support the claim that the DAWN readers have become a part of “Babylon,” and that these other publications now represent Present Truth, and are being persecuted because of their unpopularity. In fact, every argument and Scripture may be used in their behalf which we have used in opposing the DAWN teachings against Nominal Churchianity. Which horn of the dilemma shall we take; that of refusing to investigate and open ourselves to the charge that we are not truth-seekers or, on the other hand, risk the encouragement of that which is opposed to the Truth?
It seems to me safe to assume that the Lord will supervise the publication of ZION’S WATCH TOWER so long as that help is necessary, inasmuch as it has been used thus far to bring out dispensational truth, and that we may show our faith in the Lord’s promises by accepting his provision for our enlightenment by refusing to help the circulation of that which we have good reason to believe to be error. Satan would be highly pleased if he could induce us to investigate the claims of everything purporting to be Truth. As we note the spirit and character of those who have been led to investigate these things we feel more sure that insidious error is most safely left entirely alone. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.” We would be glad to have your thought on the subject.
With much Christian love to you and all the Bible House family, in which all here join,
I am, yours in the service of the King of kings,
F. P. S.,—Cal.
* * *
[In reply: We appreciate the force of your very well-stated proposition, and endorse its sentiments in every way. It seems to us that this question is one which each WATCH TOWER reader must decide for himself. Accordingly we have refrained, so far as possible, from criticism of the views of others, either publicly or privately. Those who are not our fellow-servants in any sense of the word would doubtless rejoice to have us berate them, and to claim that we were thus fulfilling Matt. 24:48,49—smiting our fellow-servants. We love fellow-servants too much to wish to smite them, and we trust we are too wise to allow the Adversary to draw us aside to squabble with the enemies of the Truth, thus to hinder the more important work of scattering the Truth.
The Lord said, “It must needs be that offences [stumblings] come, but woe unto that man by whom they come!” Some of the dear friends who have been long acquainted with the Truth, and fail to become zealous and active in its service, are, we fear, in danger of being entrapped by the “snares of the fowler” which you mention. Some of them have been so long in the [R4194 : page 191] Truth that they think they understand it perfectly, while in reality they have forgotten nearly as much as they know. These are just in the attitude where a mixture of Truth and sophistry would be likely to catch them. And for aught we know it is a part of the Lord’s will that they should be trapped and ensnared, because they have not received the Truth in the love of it—with a proper zeal.—2 Thess. 2:10.
So far as our observation carries, the earnest, the zealous, the warm-hearted, are in no danger from these snares. They are protected in various ways: (1) Their love for the Truth is so great that they would be continually feeding at the table of the Lord. Their perceptions of the Truth are correspondingly clear. Instead of forgetting half of what they knew, these are continually growing in grace and knowledge. (2) They are so satisfied with the Lord’s provision of which they have been already partaking that they have no appetite for other food, and are not seeking for it. In this respect they are different from the great mass of mankind, nearly all of whom are in doubt, in perplexity, in bewilderment, hungry for something to satisfy in respect to the life that now is and that which is to come. The class we refer to as being safe under the shadow of the Almighty is able to sing, with the Spirit and with the understanding also, that beautiful hymn:
“I love to tell the story
Because I know it’s true;
It satisfies my longings
As nothing else would do.
“I love to tell the story!
It did so much for me;
And that is just the reason
I tell it now to thee.
“I love to tell the story,
For those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting
To hear it like the rest.”
In conclusion, then, dear brother, it seems to us that all those who have received the Truth half-heartedly, and who do not give heed thereto, do not study it, cannot be expected to have the strength, the knowledge, or the character which would enable them to endure the tests of this “harvest” time, which we expect will become more severe throughout the remaining years. It seems that we would do best to set an example of studiousness, and to a reasonable degree urge the use of the wonderful helps which the Lord has provided us, and not to specially chide or interfere with those who are unsatisfied, if they look further and become confused and entangled. The result with such seems usually to be a complete turning aside into the state of uncertainty in which the world and the nominal church are called, by the Lord in the parable, “outer darkness.” Those who receive the Truth in good and honest hearts, full of zeal and love, get such a filling, such a satisfaction, become so strong in the truth and its spirit, are so well equipped with the armor, that the “Adversary toucheth them not.” I think we would make a mistake if we should fail to recognize the Lord’s own supervision of this “harvest” work, and the necessity, according to his wisdom, that errors be permitted for the very purpose of sifting the wheat.—EDITOR.]
I am not sure what you are saying Francis. I presented both aspects of what the ‘channel of God’ means/is. D o you equate channel of God to be inspired by God? Nothing is inspired directly of God since the writing of the Holy Scriptures. WTs has never been nor will be ‘inspired’ by God of anointed writers or otherwise.
Do you think the WT is indeed the Channel of God? Are you just referring to the seventh messenger, Russel, and his writings or what came from Russel?
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/12-things-we-learned-from-geoffrey-jacksons-testimony-at-the-royal-commission
Testimony of GB Member, Geoffrey Jackson HIMSELF at the Royal Commission
The Governing Body MIGHT not be Jehovah’s only spokespersons!
Hotline of God?
Especially since they declared themselves to be the faithful slave in 2012, the Governing Body CLEARLY believe themselves to be God’s sole spokespersons or “channel,” as stated explicitly in published statements like the following (bold is mine)…
“Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.” – w94 10/1 p.8
And yet, when confronted with Angus Stewart’s blunt question “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from Jackson’s lips was astounding.
“That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”
[I believe what I emphasized is the real truth. Yet the GB has not written this in watchtowers to tell the rank and file this. Those awake and enlightened in the Watchtower Society already know this, and confirmed by the lips of an GB member. I believe that any sincere individual(s) who in turn, “view themselves as trying to fulfill the role” of being spokespersons of God, can have God’s blessing.]
Please consider what has been said in a current WT that will be studied by JWs in a few weeks.
“Perhaps you are wondering if you have received this wonderful invitation. If you think that you might have, ponder some important questions. Do you feel that you have more than average zeal in the ministry? Are you a keen student of God’s Word who loves to delve into “the deep things of God”? (1 Cor. 2:10) Have you seen Jehovah’s special blessing on your ministry? Do you have a burning desire to do Jehovah’s will? Do you have a deep inner feeling of responsibility to help others spiritually? Have you seen proof that Jehovah has personally intervened in your life? If you answer these questions with a resounding yes, does this mean that you now have the heavenly calling? No, it does not. Why not? Because these are not unique feelings experienced only by those who have the heavenly calling. Jehovah’s spirit works with equal force in those who have the hope of living forever on earth.”
[Although those questions are not ‘qualifiers’ to be anointed. These are thing that anointed undoubtedly enjoy. With this logic, think about it considering the WT “Being the Only Channel of God”, which has been claimed in the past!
Any ‘organization’, person, or group of persons who are doing the will of the Father sincerely are indeed “ambassadors in reference with a promise, yes, living channels of God”
2 Corinthians 5:20 “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ.”
2 Corinthians 6:1 “As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.”
In the same vain, I do believe it is necessary to have a sense of an organization of 8 million worshipers but certainly not with totalitarian control. A checks and balances at the most, like the first century elders in Jerusalem acted as (In my opinion). I don’t believe them to have been a first century “governing body”. However, I respect that the GB are “trying” pretty earnestly, perhaps beyond what is written, but such is imperfection. The public acknowledgment of telling the world that the GB are not the ‘only spokesmen of God” speaks volumes to me and has many more implications.
Just my thoughts. I am interested in hearing any other’s thoughts on what I presented.]
http://a.imdoc.fr/1/culture/awake/photo/2859650285/23710868d2c/awake-awake-bd_armageddon_hd-img-img.jpg
what about that ?
It seems to me that the watchtower has made all the same mistakes as religious organizations have made past and present,they ALL want to control salvation.
This is the common thread that runs through them all,”do what we say because we are doing what God says”.
When my family started in the Jw back in the early 70s in South Africa ,we used to meet with 2 pioneer sisters ,an old faithful sister my mum and my sister and that was it,no organization in fancy buildings with all the conveniences,no scripted meetings,no elders and their rules,just a small personal gathering,I really miss those days.
Wild Olive I also had a similar upbringing with more people but the organization couldn’t have an influence on us in the Southern Black communities. We would tear scriptures apart and finish books at our own pace not dependent on another bookstudy group and what they did. I never really felt the power of those men until the late 60’s and it went from bad to worse as I aged.
I can say now in the words of Martin Luther King. “FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY I AM FREE AT LAST. 62 years a slave in the organization of the Jehovah witnesses sometimes cause me to breakdown and cry. But the experiences I had there made me strong and understand when people are in bondage to sin and their circumstances. I pray God will use me in the service of His KIng. I am so glad to be able to commune with all my brothers on here to give and receive encouragement.
I wonder if control wasn’t part of Adam’s & Eve’s initial sin in the Garden of Eden. When Eve was tempted by Satan, the serpent sweetened the pot by suggesting that Eve’s eyes would be opened, she would be like the gods. It is recorded that Eve believed it was a “tree to be desired to make one wise.” Gen. 3:5, 6. She seemed to desire wisdom to be like the gods, to have a god’s power. She wanted to be the boss. Adam could have remembered God was in control and turned to God for help once Eve sinned. But instead, he decided to do things his way also. He did not recognized God’s wise and loving control. Essentially, they told God they were in control! What a foolish illusion.
The only being who is really in control is God. Through His wise and loving laws, through directing our lives, through managing our futures, God blesses us. Not only does self-will hurt ourselves, but horrible problems occur when we try to control each other! God never gave us the power to control other people. When we try, we become frustrated, anxious, angry, depressed… Why? Because we don’t have that right or power.
For instance, if you had the power to make someone happy, you would be the most powerful person in the world!!! No one can force an emotion on another. Everyone is in charge of his own emotions. One day, ice cream can bring joy and another anger. Same stimulus, but different emotional outcome. Only we have control over our emotions. Similarly, if we try to control an adult’s behaviors, that person could rightly think, “Who made you my boss?” (A great book about this is “Boundaries” by Henry Cloud and John Townsend.) No, in the kingdom, everyman will sit under his own vine and fig tree i.e., each man will be responsible for himself and others will respect him.
Part of the maturing process is learning to discern God’s will and learning how to reverently obey Him. We can’t force obedience and the subsequent character development on another. The GB truly has no power to create godly Christians. But they seemingly believe that their manmade rules will develop Christ-likeness. I disagree.
Se que es dificil viajar de PERU a EE.UU, pero mi gran sueño es conocer su organizacion de JEHOVA..me gustaria conversar y me den animos a seguir en el pueblo de nuestro señor SOBERANO JEHOVA, SOY UN ESTUDIANTE DE TECNOLOGIA MEDICA (laboratorio clinico) en PIURA..espero me comprendan gracias una vez mas,un cordial abrazo a todos los hermanos que JEHOVA derrame muchas bendiciones…