Chicago Bible Students Elder and Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses Administrator, Peter Karavas spoke to the congregation on Sunday Dec. 18, on the topic: Will Only Jehovah’s Witnesses Survive Armageddon? Is this lifetime the only chance for repentance and life? Is there any future hope? Will family members who have not jointed the JW Organization perish forever in eternal death? What does the Bible say?
Audio Discourse – Who Will Survive Armageddon
You can also read the text of the talk (pdf format) here: WHO_WILL_SURVIVE_ARMAGEDDON_Published
Back to the title of thread. Are their people who will not get to rise from the dead? My post says there are people who will not. Any comments?
Bro. Peter,
As I stated I don’t agree with everything Bro. Rice writes, however, in this particular topic I believe he is correct. Having researched the Cyrus Cylinder which is in the British Museum and was translated in 1971 by the UN in all recognized languages, I found that it states Cyrus conquered Babylon in October of 539 BC. So his first year of rule would be 538BC. Going back to the burning of the Temple at the close of the reign of Zedekiah, in 587 BC, until the return of the Israelites in the first year of Cyrus, in 538 BC, was a period of 49 years. This is a very appropriate period of time, for Leviticus 26:34 says during this time the land of Israel would observe sabbath rest, and a cycle of years from one Jubilee to another was this same period, 49 years. Then when I read the prophecies of Jeremiah 25 and 29, I can see that those scriptures are not talking about the desolation of Jerusalem for 70 years but instead the time given to Babylon to rule as an empire. To me all this makes sense.
Bob – Thanks again. I am not sure where to start. A scriptural analysis of the issues of Jer 25, 29 and 70 years at Babylon verses 70 years of desolation are all covered in the Study, “The Period of the Desolation” at http://www.biblechronology.org/studies.html . I believe that 70 full years of desolation are proven there from scriptures. No one has ever contacted me with any line of reasoning to refute the presentation.
——————
Regarding 49 years satisfying Lev 26:34 consider this{
Dan 9:1,2: “In the first year of Darius… I Daniel searched in the BOOKS for understanding concerning the number of the years whereof the word of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would let pass full seventy years over the ruins of Jerusalem.” – Isaac Leeser
What BOOKS were Daniel talking about?
He is obviously talking about Jer. 25:11; 29:10 and 2 Chron. 36:21, which all relate to the 70 years of desolation. But there is also another book which relates to the same 70 years Jeremiah spoke of. Notice what verse 19 says:
Dan 9:13: “As it is WRITTEN [in one of the “BOOKS”] in the law of Moses; all this evil came over us: yet offered we not any entreaty before the Lord our God, to return from our iniquities, and to become intelligent in thy truth.” – Isaac Leeser.
Where did Moses write about “all this evil” that came over them?
Lev 26:33-36: And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out after you the sword; and your land shall be a desolate wild, and your cities shall be a waste. Then shall the LAND satisfy its sabbaths, all the days of its desolation, when ye are in the land of your enemies: then shall the LAND rest, and satisfy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation shall it rest, the time which it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And regarding THOSE THAT ARE LEFT OF YOU, I will send a faintness into their hearts IN THE LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES” – Isaac Leeser.
Main points:
* Those left (who survive) will be in enemies land. No Israelite left in land.
* Land will rest during this period of desolation and ruin long enough to satisfy its sabbaths.
First Conclusion: One of the books that Daniel searched (Dan 9:1) to understand about the 70 years of desolation was Leviticus, where in chapter 26 he deduced that the land could only satisfy its sabaaths with 70 years of desolation.
The clincher to Daniel’s conclusion of 70 years of desolation was the following:
2 Chron. 36:19-21: “and they [the Babylonians] burned the house of God, and threw down the wall of Jerusalem, and all the palaces thereof burned they with fire, and all the precious vessels thereof he [Nebuchadnezzar] destroyed; and he exiled the remnant left from the sword into Babylon, where they became his and his sons as servants, until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: to fulfil the word of God by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off her sabbaths, all the days of her lying desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil seventy years.
Second Conclusion: The Land would have to rest for 70 years. This 70 year rest could not have begun 19 years earlier in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim since most of the nation still remained in Judah, and the land had no rest during this time.
—————-
Your dates for Cyrus are correct if we recognize that the Bible reckoning for Cyrus first year was 2 years later.. Cyrus’ death is fixed by Ptolemy and confirmed by H.F.Clinton as 529 BC. The year of his decree for liberty to Jewish captives in Babylon fell in the midst of his reign, after the fall of Media and then of Babylon. This is called the “first year of Cyrus” in Ezra 1:1. This must refer to his first year of administration over the Jews, being the first year of their release and revival of Judaism. This is not the same as history’s first recorded year for Cyrus.
The release of Jews under Cyrus’ decree does not appear to have occurred until Darius is off the scene. McClintock and Strong says this occurred in 536 BC, “at the close of the two years, during which Darius the Mede held the viceroyship of Babylon.” It should be noted that these two years are a deduction affirmed by a number of historians.
The [Ptolemy] Canon dates the accession of Cyrus, not from the capture of Babylon itself, BC 536, but from his decisive victory over the rebellious king of Babylon, who is called Nabonadius, about two years before, BC 538 when he defeated him in a pitched battle, and drove the Babylonians into the city. Hales’s Chronology, Vol.I, London 1830.
The capture of Babylon is rightly placed in BC 538; and the edict for the return of the Jews, at the end of BC 536, was the first year of Cyrus, computed from the death of Darius the Mede. Fasti Hellenici, Vol.II, Henry Fynes Clinton, 1841.
Cyaxares is called in Scripture Darius the Mede. We shall find that under his reign, which lasted but two years, Daniel had several revelations…Cyaxares dying at the end of two years, and Cambyses likewise ending his days in Persia, Cyrus returned to Babylon, and took upon him the government of the empire. Ancient History, Charles Rollin, 1838.
McClintock & Strong – “Chronology” page 304
From the Destruction of Solomon’s Temple to the Return from Babylon.–The determination of the length of this period depends upon the date of the return to Palestine. The decree of Cyrus leading to that event was made in the first year of his reign (Ezra 1:1), which, if it date from his conquest of Babylon, as determined by Ptolemy’s Canon, would be 538 BC; but the decree in question appears to date from his personal supersedure of “Darius the Mede” at Babylon, 536 BC, where the edict was evidently issued. Others date the decree from the earlier point, and suppose that so great a migration must have occupied much time; they therefore allow two years as not too long an interval for its complete accomplishment after the promulgation of the decree.
In the book “Cyrus” page 638
The “first year of Cyrus” there spoken of is not the year of his elevation to power over the
Medes, nor the date of the conquest of Persia, nor yet that of the fall of Babylon, 538 BC; but at the close of the two years succeeding this last event, during which, “Darius the Mede” held the viceroyship of Babylon, i.e. in 536 BC. It was not till then that Cyrus became actual ruler over Palestine, which continued to be attached to the Babylonian department of his empire.
Dupin,
For a different point of view, and one that correlates archeology and bible chronology, I suggest you go to web site http://www.2043AD.com. It’s a web site by Bro. David Rice from San Diego. If you click on Journal then on the past PFD files and finally on May, June 2008, there is an article that explains the 70 years and the parallel between 607 BC and 1914 AD. I found it to be very informative. Not all Bible Students agree on his views, and I don’t agree completely on everything he says, but on this particular topic I found him to make very good sense. He also provides other material on chronology, if you click on 6000 years, which is a different viewpoint and you may find interesting.
Bob – Thanks for your thoughts. Br. David Rice was a great mentor of mine from my youth. I was part of the San Diego Ecclesia with him for over 20 years. When around 1990 he first brought his chronology revisions up, I was excited about his presentation and immediately called Br. Carl Hagensick, encouraging him to consider the clay tablet and secular history information being brought to light. However upon deeper study over the years, I began to realize that these revisions contradicted the clear statement of the Bible record and that the clay tablets and conflicting secular records were unreliable.
With the Bible, we have hundreds of translations, dictionaries, lexicons, etc. to test what would be the most accurate translation of each Biblical text. However with scholars, we are relying on questionable translations, conflicting information and uncertainty due to their ignoring of records that contradict position (i.e. The Abydos tablets, etc.). These scholars have the same type of closed scientific minds that as many evolutionists, who shut down and punish all other perspectives in the scientific and educational communities. Pride will not allow these scholars to consider evidence indicating they have been wrong and which challenge their judgment and status.
Rolf Furuli has done some amazing studies refuting the reliability of these Babylonian Clay Tablets. His two books are:
Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Persian Chronology Compared with the Chronology of the Bible – Volume II – Assyrian Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology” was revised and published in 2008.
Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Persian Chronology Compared with the Chronology of the Bible – Volume I – Persian chronology and the Length of the Babylonian Exile of the Jews (This book is no being revised and expanded. It is at present being proofread, and it will be published in the first part of 2012.
These books can be ordered and acquired from Awatu Publishers [awatu@online.no] in Norway. The contact at the publishers is Ann Henriksen.
At first Br. DR had indicated four changes in the Bible Chronology, still ending 6,000 years in 1874 (as these adjustments cancelled themselves out). In about 1995 I gave a presentation refuting both the change in the 70 years desolation and the period from Abraham to the Exodus, strictly on Biblical grounds. Since then, Br. DR dropped the revisions on the period of from Abraham to the Exodus, leaving him with only three revisions to the Chronology. But these changes no longer cancelled each other out and now the 6,000 years ended in 2043 AD.
The largest of Br. DRs three revisions is a 101 year change in the period of the Judges, making it 349 years long rather than 450. Thankfully, the period of the Judges was so long ago, that the issue is much less confused by secular reasoning and evidence. Based on the scripture record, the period of the Judges just cannot be condensed to only 349 years. I make my case at http://www.biblechronology.org/ Look under “Studies” and you will find my studies on the Period of the Judges and the Desolation, which I believe powerfully make the scriptural case. You can also find some remarkable and compelling chronology studies by Br. Jerry Leslie and others.
Thanks again Bob for sharing your point of view.
I’m going to take a moment to thank both of you here,
I’ve been to your site before Peter, that’s where I got the PDF from if memory serves me right. I do plan on going back to it at another point, but am concentrating on other things right now which I haven’t really done and need to do first.
I bookmarked your site Bob to go back to as well. I also downloaded the intro and John from the translation you promote to check it out as I’m always curious about any translation I haven’t encountered before. As I mentioned I am a student of the biblical languages, but let’s add to that the earliest languages in which God’s word was translated into as well. So I’m always curious where translations are concerned.
To Larry John Wayne;
Ps 49:12,”He is on a level with the cattle.” Ecl 3:20,”Everything goes to one place.” PR 21:16,”A man who takes leave of common sense comes to reat in the company of the dead.”
Please explain,”The dead will not live again, those long in their graves will not rise.” Is 26:14 That chapter starts off by talking about good people. Verse 3,”Trust in the Lord forever.”
14,”to this end thou hast punished them and destroyed them, and made all memory of them perish.”
Note how they view the faithful. 18,19,”But thy dead live, their bodies will rise again. They taht sleep in the earth will awake and shout for joy; for thy dew is a dew of sparking light, and the earth will bring those long dead to birth again.”
John 5:28 West Cott and hort,”memorial tombs” Remember Isaiah? All memory has perished.
The Diaglott renders the nine letter greek word tombs. My Greek Lexicon for tomb has four greek words,5,6,4,4 letters only for each word under tomb.
The greek word comes close to matching memorial. Two of the words for tomb match last letter. 7 LETTERS MATCH TOMBSTONE. LAST TWO DIFFERENT.
But lets consider what happened at a synagogue,”Now there was a man in the synagogue possessed by a devil, an unclean spirit. He shricked at the top of his voice, ‘What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazarath? Have you come to destroy us?? I know who you are-the Holy One of God.’
Note his expectation,being destroyed. Why? They gave up perfection. Same as ADAM and EVE did. And Jesus taught us there is an unforgiveable sin. Mt 12
Note what these devils do in the last days. These spirits were devils, with power to work miracles. They were sent out to muster all the kings of the world for the great day of battle of God the Sovereign Lord.” Re 16:14 They all get everlasting destruction. And those who are deceived by them.
Note Re 20:10,”and the Devil, their seducer, was flung into the lake of fire and sulpher, where the beast and false prophet had been flung, there to be tormented day and night forever.” The Devil Satan has this happen sometime after the thousand years have ended. The false prophet and beast were put there before the thousand years with the devils. There was no resurrection for those kings,false prophets, rulers, and those who followed them.
But Re 7:9 shows a great crowd which is saved, and then during the thousand years the resurrection starts with those in the memorial tombs.
Consider Korah and those who followed him. They witnessed Moses powerful works against Pharaoh by the hand of Jehovah.
Then it looked like they were doomed. But again Jehovah blinds the enemy and then parts the rea sea. Then the waters fall on the enemy. Why they have even found chariot wheels under water for evidence.
Then a bunch act stupid and build the calve, a good number were destroyed.
Then they were supplied with manna and other things.
And keep in mind the cloud by day the fire by night. How could any sensible person go against that? But they did. After seeing all that, what would make those kind of people want to serve Jehovah in the paradise earth?
Well John I had a post the other day for you and when I hit send, I saw I did it all for naught, had been knocked off internet. So it gave me time to think and will have a shorter more clear answer to you on your long post.
Max
Max –You asked to explain “The dead will not live again, those long in their graves will not rise.” Is 26:14
Isa 26 (New Living Translation) 13 O Lord our God, others have ruled us, but you alone are the one we worship. 14 Those we served before are dead and gone. Their departed spirits [life] will never return! You attacked them and destroyed them, and they are long forgotten.
In context Isa is speaking about those who “ruled” Israel, i.e. Babylon from Isa 13 & 14. Many of those people died. They are gone and all memory of them forgotten. Yet as many other scriptures show, they will be remembered again when mankind is raised from the dead for a trial period during the 1,000 years.
Here is a similar passage.
Psa 88(NASV) 4 am reckoned among those who go down to the pit; I have become like a man without strength, 5 Forsaken among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom You remember no more, And they are cut off from Your hand. 12 Will Your wonders be made known in the darkness? And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
David was simply lamenting that he was like those who died and were forgotten.
Notice this passage about the rich.
Psa 49 (NASV) 16 Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich, When the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dies he will carry nothing away; His glory will not descend after him. 18 Though while he lives he congratulates himself— And though men praise you when you do well for yourself— 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They will never see the light. 20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.
The point is that men are like beasts who perish and never see the light of day after that. However, this condition is not eternal. As Jesus said in John 5:28, “the hour is coming when ALL in their graves will come forth…” In Acts, Paul spoke of both the resurrection of the just and unjust. He never said there was a third group called the wicked who would not be resurrected.
Many of the fallen angels (devils) will be eternally destroyed. (Rev 20:10) In 1 Cor 6 Paul said of the anointed, “… you will judge men and angels.” So I am not sure what you point is here. We all agree with that.
In Rev 7:9 where it talks about the Great Crowd saved out of great tribulation, nothing there says the rest of the world is destroyed. As a matter of fact in Rev 16:14, it is the kings of the earth are brought to Armageddon, not every living person on the planet.
What is your point about Korah? You say he and his followers don’t deserve a resurrection. Maybe they don’t. But what scripture shows they will not be resurrected? Hypothetically Max, if Korah had been raised by you as a child, are you saying there is no chance you could have done anything to guide him a long a righteous path? If so, why not give him a chance for re-education, discipline, repentance and turning to righteousness? If you could have done nothing as a parent to help Korah, then why even try with your own kids if it wouldn’t matter?
Greetings everyone:
First, I just finished listening to Br. Karavas’ discourse and enjoyed it very much. It is obvious a good amount of work went into it and I appreciated that effort on his part, my thanks go to him.
I would like to make a short comment on the date for the desolation of Jerusalem and its date. I spent a few years investigating the matter myself and have quite a bit of material on the subject, including images of the Babylonian tablets many look to for dating the event. I even gather together the materials needed to learn Akkadian so that I could read those tablets directly instead of relying on translators.
However, I ran into something I just couldn’t get around, Ezra’s account of the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s words. You’ll find it in 2 Chronicles where we find an account of that destruction. Let me draw your attention to verses 19-23:
“2Ch 36:19 After this, they set fire to God’s Temple, demolished the wall around Jerusalem, burned all of its fortified buildings, and destroyed everything of value.
2Ch 36:20 Nebuchadnezzar carried off to Babylon those who survived the executions, and they served him and his descendants until the kingdom of Persia came to power.
2Ch 36:21 All of this fulfilled what the LORD had predicted through Jeremiah. And so the land enjoyed its Sabbaths, and the length of the land’s desolation lasted until a 70-year long Sabbath had been completed.
2Ch 36:22 During the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, in fulfillment of the message from the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD prompted Cyrus, king of Persia, to make this proclamation throughout his entire kingdom, which was also released in written form:
2Ch 36:23 AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM CYRUS, KING OF PERSIA All of the kingdoms of the earth have been given to me by the LORD God of Heaven, and he specifically charged me to build a temple for him in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Therefore, who among the LORD’s people trusts in his God? Whoever among this group wishes to do so may travel to Jerusalem.”
Notice that the passage tells us that at the end of the seventy years of desolation for Jerusalem God stirs up Cyrus to issue his proclamation, in his first year. That year is generally accepted as being 537-536 b.c. That account by Ezra places the destruction of Jerusalem at 607-606 bc. And its desolation continuing for seventy years until 537-536 bc. Although Ezra comes along a few years after the decree, he arrives in Jerusalem in the seventh year of the reign of Artaxerxes, 458 bc (Ezra 7:8). That is close enough to an eye witness account I personally have to go with it in spite of Babylonian records the accuracy of our readings of them being quite open to interpretation.
I realize that may not be enough for you Kent. But that’s alright, this is just my opinion based on my evaluation of the evidence. Oh, and thanks for taking the time to post your own opinion.
Dupin – Thanks. I agree with your conclusion regrading putting your faith in scriptures on this issues of the 70 years desolation and 606-7 BC. You might find some helpful material here: http://www.biblechronology.org/ particularly the book Dating the Desolation here: http://www.biblechronology.org/studies/datingdesolation.pdf
You’re welcome Br Peter,
I do have the PDF booklet you linked because I did a thorough job in researching the subject. It can be legitimately argued that the interpretation placed on the event is based on a misreading of the Jeremiah text. Even Daniel’s account of the ending of the period is open to interpretation because he speaks of the “desolations” of Jerusalem, implying at least several desolations of different natures running simultaneously (Dan. 9:2). But it was Ezra’s unambiguous account which did it for me. It doesn’t matter how we might understand the texts involved, what really matters is how those on the scene in ancient times understood the prophecies and their fulfillment under God’s inspiration. That’s where Jonsson et. al. make their mistake.
Dupin,
I think I know what you mean about the Daniel and Jermiah texts. Let me share some thougts and forgive me as you will likely already be familiar with much of what I will say.
DANIEL
Dan 9:1,2: “In the first year of Darius… I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.”
Here the NUMBER OF YEARS for the COMPLETION of the DESOLATIONS is 70 years, not 51 years.”
Regarding “desolations,” let’s notice two translations…
“the number of years… to fulfill the desolations of Jerusalem, 70 years.” – Rotherham.
“the number of years… that he would let pass full seventy years over the ruins of Jerusalem.” – Isaac Leeser.
I don’t think the Hebrew for “desolations” mean more than one. Lesser uses the word ruins. Rotherham uses desolations. Both words are accurate.
Desolations: Strong’s 2723, New Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies. “to be dry; to be laid waist, desert… laid waist, destroyed, a laying waist, a laying waist, a desolation, a place laid waist, ruins.”
So it is not a plural or more than one desolation.
When was Jerusalem in ruins, laid waste and made desolate? It was NOT in the 4th year of Jehoiakim when he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar at Jerusalem. Jerusalem was not destroyed, and the kingdom was left in place, albeit as a vassal state to Babylon. It was 19 years later when Zedekiah was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar. In Zedekiah’s 11th year Jerusalem was destroyed, laid waist and made desolate, not 19 years earlier.
It’s important to note that 2 Chron. 36:21 speaks of 70 years of desolation of the land, not 70 years of captivity. So, the 70 years could not have begun any earlier than Zedekiah’s 11th year even though many Jews had already gone into captivity prior to this date.
JEREMIAH
Jeremiah 29:10: “For thus says the LORD, ‘when 70 years have been completed FOR Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place.” – NASV
Some have challenged that If 70 years is “FOR” BABYLON, instead of “AT” BABYLON, then the verse does not prove that the Jews were “AT” Babylon for 70 years. “FOR” Babylon could simply imply a period of Babylonian domination, allowing for only 51 years actually AT Babylon during a 70 year period in which they were ruled by Babylon, 19 of which were in Judah.
ANSWER:
For: Strong’s 5921, Gesenius Defines as “A prep. of very frequent occurrence, and of wide extent in meaning.” So this word is hard to define.
King James and New World Translations = “AT”, not “FOR”.
Jeremiah uses this very same Hebrew word in other scriptures in his book. So let’s allow Jeremiah himself to define this word for us.
Jer 27:18: “But if they are prophets… let them now entreat the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left… IN Jerusalem, may not go to Babylon.” – NASV
Jer 34:8: “King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were IN Jerusalem” – NASV
Jer 35:11: “So we have dwelt IN Jerusalem.” – NASV
Jer 7:2: “Stand IN the gate of the LORD’s house.” – NASV
Jer 17:27: “coming through the gates OF Jerusalem” – NASV (Would make sense to translate “in” or “at”, but not “for”.
Jer 41:3: “Ishmael also struck down all the Jews who were with him, that is with Gedaliah AT Mizpah” – NASV
Conclusion: To be most consistent with how Jeremiah uses the Hebrew word, Strong’s 5921, Jer 25:10 would best be translated, “when 70 years have been accomplished AT (or IN) Babylon.” Therfore, the Jews were AT or IN Babylon for 70 full years during which the land was desolate.
MORE EVIDENCE FOR 70 YEARS AT BABYLON
Dan 9:1,2: “In the first year of Darius… I Daniel searched in the BOOKS for understanding concerning the number of the years whereof the word of the Lord had come to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would let pass full seventy years over the ruins of Jerusalem.” – Isaac Leeser
What BOOKS were Daniel talking about?
He is obviously talking about Jer. 25:11; 29:10 and 2 Chron. 36:21, which all relate to the 70 years of desolation. But there is also another book which relates to the same 70 years Jeremiah spoke of. Notice what verse 19 says:
Dan 9:13: “As it is WRITTEN [in one of the “BOOKS”] in the law of Moses; all this evil came over us: yet offered we not any entreaty before the Lord our God, to return from our iniquities, and to become intelligent in thy truth.” – Isaac Leeser.
Where did Moses write about “all this evil” that came over them?
Lev 26:33-36: And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out after you the sword; and your land shall be a desolate wild, and your cities shall be a waste. Then shall the LAND satisfy its sabbaths, all the days of its desolation, when ye are in the land of your enemies: then shall the LAND rest, and satisfy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation shall it rest, the time which it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And regarding THOSE THAT ARE LEFT OF YOU, I will send a faintness into their hearts IN THE LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES” – Isaac Leeser.
Main points:
* Those left (who survive) will be in enemies land. No Israelite left in land.
* Land will rest during this period of desolation and ruin long enough to satisfy its sabbaths.
First Conclusion: One of the books that Daniel searched (Dan 9:1) to understand about the 70 years of desolation was Leviticus, where in chapter 26 he deduced that the land could only satisfy its sabaaths with 70 years of desolation.
The clincher to Daniel’s conclusion of 70 years of desolation was the following:
2 Chron. 36:19-21: “and they [the Babylonians] burned the house of God, and threw down the wall of Jerusalem, and all the palaces thereof burned they with fire, and all the precious vessels thereof he [Nebuchadnezzar] destroyed; and he exiled the remnant left from the sword into Babylon, where they became his and his sons as servants, until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: to fulfil the word of God by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off her sabbaths, all the days of her lying desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil seventy years.
Second Conclusion: The Land would have to rest for 70 years. This 70 year rest could not have begun 19 years earlier in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim since most of the nation still remained in Judah, and the land had no rest during this time.
Dear Br.:
Thank you for your concern and efforts. They are appreciated. In my little missive all i was trying to do was briefly show you I did my research in some depth, not dispute matters as I did come to the conclusion that Russell is most likely correct as to the matter of the date and the scholars wrong.
I am a student of the biblical languages Br. Peter. So I am familiar with the arguments surrounding Jeremiah 29:10 and other issues involved which haven’t even been raised in this exchange. I’m not writing this to brush you off dear brother, far from it. I’m just trying to reassure you my research and knowledge on this subject isn’t at all superficial nor is my faith in the conclusion I arrived at.
I’m going to send you my phone number Br. Peter. You’re welcome to call anytime to talk with me and get acquainted. On weeknights my teleconference class meets Tues. and Wed. at 7:30 PM, otherwise i’m generally free and because of the nature of my health problems there is no such thing as too late. If moring is better be advised you might wake me up, but don’t let that stop you in the least as I’ll be happy to talk with you anyway.
Dupin
Thanks for your comment Dupin.
I have some comments to you, first i am rather tired of debating this subject. The reason i posted in the first place was to comment on why Jehovah’s witnesses think they are the only group that will survive Armageddon. i have some thinking on this topic cause i have been a Jehovah’s Witness for 25 years.
The thing is i think it is a bit different to discuss this with someone who are a biblestudent compared with a Jehovah’s witness. For Jehovah’s witnesses the doctrine about 607 — 1914 is so important that if you do not belief in this doctrine you will be totally disfelloshipped and can no longer talk to your friends.
The reason is that the Governing Body says God choosed them 1919 as the only organization he works with. This they do and points to this chronology about 1914. They say God cleansed his spiritual temple in 1918 and 1919 he choosed them. Also they say Gods kingdom started to rule in heaven 1914.
The thing is i do not think that this is as important to the biblestudents as it is to Jehovah’s witnesses.
I just wanted to ask you Dupin, what bibletranslation did you use when you posted that scripture from 2 chr 36: 19-23. Please let me know which translation you used when you posted that scripture.
Also want to thank you for you kind language and attitude.
Greetings Kent:
I really do understand what you mean by that Kent. I just wished to share my own perspective friend, not debate you. I think Peter senses it from my post, but I examined the subject very critically Kent. I don’t know if you’ve caught some of my other posts around here, but I had plenty of reasons to want to see the generally accepted date vindicated, all of which had to do with the Witnesses and my experiences in the organization, not Russell and the views the Bible Students hold. What I was doing was sharing with you in a brief format what turned it in the end for me. That being said I will respect your desire not to debate the matter, i understand.
Please forgive me for not sourcing the quote properly as is my usual habit. I quoted the International Standard Version (ISV), as it appears in the current e-sword module. When I quote larger passages like that one I like to take it from one or another of the translations I have on the e-sword program.
My best,
Dupin
Dear Dupin
Thanks for your reply and for being so kind.
I want to show you from the same program E-sword that 13 of 16 translations use the phrase (till seventy years where complete) or similar, as you can see here. I have put the 13 ones inside the brackets. I mean this only points you to Jeremiah 25:10 where the 70 years is about Babylon having domination over “all these nations”. So when the scripture say until 70 years where completed it means after Babylon have had their domination over all these nations. Thats when the medes came in 539 bc. So from 609 bc to 539, Babylon had domination, then the medes and the persians came to power.
I mean Dupin that it is so easy to let our desire and our foreknowledge, affect our interpretation of a scripture. The 70 years is about Babylon having domination over all these nations and nothing else. Of course God wanted to give his people a lesson which he did, but he used Babylon to do that. Jeremiah 25:10, Jeremiah 29:10 and a couple of other scriptures as 2 chr 36:20 and Zacharia shows us that the 70 years is about the 70 year Babylonian domination.
I hope you understand that i do not mean to use a bad language, but a language of love and mutual respect in researching this subject. I was disfellowshipped by the watchtower organization for not putting full trust in their chronology about 1914. So i have paid a high prize for my research. I am open to change my mind if i am confronted with proof for the opposite side.
I see you have a great amount of knowledge both in bible language as in the bible itself. Please trust me when i say that i am appreciating you concern and i hope you understand me, that i never want to force anyone to think something they do not want to think or belief.
So here is the 16 scriptures hope you can understand what i mean.
Christian love from Kent
2Ch 36:21
(ASV) to fulfil the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths: for as long as it lay desolate it kept sabbath, (to fulfil threescore and ten years).
(BBE) So that the words of the Lord, which he said by the mouth of Jeremiah, might come true, till the land had had pleasure in her Sabbaths; for as long as she was waste the land kept the Sabbath, (till seventy years were complete).
(Brenton) That the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremias might be fulfilled, until the land should enjoy its sabbaths in resting and sabbath keeping all the days of its desolation, (till the accomplishment of seventy years).
(CEV) Judah was an empty desert, and it stayed that way for seventy years, to make up for all the years it was not allowed to rest. These things happened just as Jeremiah the LORD’s prophet had said.
(Darby) to fulfil the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath, (to fulfil seventy years).
(ESV) to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, (to fulfill seventy years).
(GW) This happened so that the LORD’S words spoken through Jeremiah would be fulfilled. The land had its years of rest and was made acceptable again. While it lay in ruins, the land had its 70 years of rest.
(ISV) All of this fulfilled what the LORD had predicted through Jeremiah. And so the land enjoyed its Sabbaths, and the length of the land’s desolation lasted until a 70-year long Sabbath had been completed.
(JPS) to fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had been paid her sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, (to fulfil threescore and ten years).
(KJV) To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, (to fulfil threescore and ten years.
(KJV+) To fulfilH4390 the wordH1697 of the LORDH3068 by the mouthH6310 of Jeremiah,H3414 untilH5704 the landH776 had enjoyedH7521 (H853) her sabbaths:H7676 for as long asH3605 H3117 she lay desolateH8074 she kept sabbath,H7673 to fulfilH4390 threescore and tenH7657 years.H8141)
(LITV) in order to fulfill the Word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept the sabbath, (to the full measure of seventy years).
(MKJV) to fulfill the Word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of the desolation it kept the sabbath, (to the full measure of seventy years).
(RV) to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, (to fulfill threescore and ten years).
(Webster) To fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, (to fulfill seventy years).
(YLT) to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath–(to the fulness of seventy years).
Kent – It is always good to read your insights. On this particular point I disagree with your thought that “complete” applies to Babylon’s domination over the Gentiles. Before responding to your point, if you carefully read what C.T. Russell said about 1914, it is remarkable how accurate he was. No other person has successfully used time prophecy to indicate the fulfillment of events on an exact year. Yet like timework, in 1914, WW1 broke out, the kings lost their authority, church/state rule ended and WWI led to the Balfour Declaration in 1917 setting aside a homeland for the Jews.
Now in regard to your point that “till seventy years are complete” apply to Babylonian domination.
DEFINITION OF “COMPLETE”
The word “complete” in the Hebrew has the thought of “to fill” or “fully count”. It does not include the thought of finishing of a count from somewhere in the middle (i.e. 19th of 70 years).
Complete: Strong’s 4390. New Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies, “to fill; to be full; to give in full tale; i.e. to make up in full number” (Note: Webster’s “tale: A reckoning by numbers; a count; enumeration.” In our case, a full counting of numbers of years)
As indicated by the definition of the Hebrew, we do not start in the 19th year of a partially filled 70 year period. We start counting the 70 years desolation at the beginning of the 70 year period.
EXAMPLES OF HOW THE WORD “COMPLETE” IS USED IN SCRIPTURES
Let’s review some of these examples of this same Hebrew word used in other scriptures. All have idea of something starting out empty (not partially empty) and being filled.
Joshua 9:13: “And these wineskins which we filled were new, and behold they are torn..” – NASV.
The wineskins here started out empty, then were completely filled. They weren’t partly filled then topped off.
1 Kg 18:35: “And the water flowed around the alter, and he also filled the trench with water.” – NASV
Here Elijah filled an empty trench with water. The trench was not already partially filled with water.
Jer. 41:9: “Now as for the cistern… Ishmael the son of Nethania filled it with the slain.” – NASV
Before Ishmael started filling the cistern with the slain, it was empty
Lev 25:29-30
29 ‘If a man sells a house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year he may redeem it.
30 ‘But if it is not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to him who bought it, throughout his generations. It shall not be released in the Jubilee.” (NKJ)
A man is allowed a full year, starting on day 1 of the day he sold his house, to redeem it.
Lev 12:1-6 (NKJ) 1 “Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 ‘And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 ‘She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled. 5 ‘But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days. 6 ‘When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting.”
Clearly the days of purification to be fulfilled are a full 30 or 60 days. There are no shortcuts here for a part of a 30 or 60 day period.
Summary: As used in the Bible, this word “completed,” in 2 Chron 36:21, has the thought of taking something empty and filling it. We are NOT talking about taking a glass half full and topping it off with water. We are NOT talking about beginning the Desolation 19 years into a 70 year perod. We are talking about the COMPLETE 70 year period.
Conclusion: II Chron. 36:21 has the thought of the land being desolate until the 70 years are filled or fully counted, starting from year one and going all the way to the end (the 70th year).
DANIEL TESTIMONY
Dan 9:1,2: “In the first year of Darius… I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.”
The NUMBER OF YEARS for the COMPLETION of the DESOLATIONS is 70 years, not 51 years.
Let’s notice two other more clear translations…
“the number of years… to fulfill the desolations of Jerusalem, 70 years.” – Rotherham.
“the number of years… that he would let pass full seventy years over the ruins of Jerusalem.” – Isaac Leeser.
We find it difficult to read this passage any other way then that the period of desolation would last a full 70 years.
Lesser uses the word ruins. Rotherham uses desolations. Actually, both words are accurate.
Desolations: Strong’s 2723, New Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies. “to be dry; to be laid waist, desert… laid waist, destroyed, a laying waist, a laying waist, a desolation, a place laid waist, ruins.”
When was Jerusalem in ruins, laid waste and made desolate? It was NOT in the 4th year of Jehoiakim when he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar at Jerusalem. Jerusalem was not destroyed, and the kingdom was left in place, albeit as a vassal state to Babylon. It was 19 years later when Zedekiah was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar. In Zedekiah’s 11th year Jerusalem was destroyed, laid waist and made desolate, not 19 years earlier.
It’s important to note that 2 Chron. 36:21 speaks of 70 years of desolation of the land, not 70 years of captivity. So, the 70 years could not have begun any earlier than Zedekiah’s 11th year even though many Jews had already gone into captivity prior to this date.
Thanks Dupin. I got your phone # and will give you a call today or soon. I would enjoy discussing any Bible topics with you. I am glad you are a student of languages, as I am sure I can learn some things form you. Christian love – Peter K.
I look forward to it Peter, especially after listening to your Discourse Sunday.
Dupin
God Dag Herr Kent:
Hur står det till? Jacqueline let me know where you’re from and suggested we might want to exchange e-mails or talk. I you would like to, you can get my e-mail address and number from Jacqueline, she already has my permission to give it to you. You just might want to know that at this point in time my Svensk is so rusty I had to look the greeting back up. 😉 So, we’ll be communicating in English.
Dupin
Thanks Dupin i would love that i think that would be great. I can talk to Jaquelin on the phone and then i can come back to you. That was a really nice thing of you to do. I hope i can come back you soon. I am going on a trip Thursday but will be back Friday and the Christmas holiday i have plenty of time.
Christian love from your brother Kent
You’re welcome friend,
I look forward to it.
I do not know what you mean. On my website there is no video monitor nor video. Maybe you where commenting on another post than mine. The material on my website is available to all through google. Thanks for commenting.
Kent
I clicked on the link and saw that there was a video monitor. Was there really a video? If there was or is, have you ever thought of uploading that onto YouTube so everybody all the world can watch it? Just a suggestion.
I have been thinking about this question for a while and thought “is there any special scriptures i should remember to understand why Jehovahs witnesses thinks they are the only one that shall survive armageddon”.
The thing is i studied the subject the 1914 chronology for a couple of years thouroughly. I found that there is so much to say in regard to the scriptures the governing body refers to when they say God choosed them 1919 as the only people he would work with. If God did choose them 191 there would seem probable that people should join them to get blessings from God. If God choosed an organisation like the watchtower, 1919 it seems resonable that people chould join them to be blessed with surviving Gods judgment at harmageddon.
If you go into my website http://587or607.com you can see that the year 607 as the year when the watchtower say that the first Jerusalem fell is not correct neither secularly nor from the bible. If Jerusalem fell 587 then with the calculation of 2520 days one year for each day. This will be 2520 years they will end 1932 instead of 1914. The thing is there is nothing in the bible that actually lets us calculate 2520 years at all.
I think that because there is a judgement from God in the near future when he will sanctify his holy name in front of all the nations. On this subject the bible is very clear. We can see this if we read Hesekiel an Isaiah and Jeremiah.
We actually live in those days when this will happen and those that take a stand against God and his Son Jesus Christ will have to face them. This does not mean that here will not be survivors, i think that teher will be many survivors but those that are stubborn will facing God and Christ.
Because the governing body thinks that God choosed them and even thinks that he cleansed them 1918 they think that he has a special people and when he comes to sanctify his name they think that they will actually as an organisation survive harmageddon in to the new earth. All of those that are not in this organisation will as they say perish.
Now they say we live in a doms period and what do they have in the scriptures to prove this? well it could be the parallell of the sheeps and the goats. This could also point to the 1000 years when people will have to learn rightousness ifn they want to have eternal life. Today it could mean that some are placing themselves as goats when they go against God and Christ.
There is nothing the watchtower can say to prove that God works only with them and will let only them survive in harmageddon.
Visit my website and others dealing with the same subject to prove to yourself the fact that the watchtower have not been choosen by God. Just do not let this make yourself an unbeliver and one that do not trust God and Chríst and the bible
Max, Max, Max,
What was the point of your question? Your question seems to be very revealing to your thoughts. Just WHAT was your point to ask, “How many different kinds of worshipers were saved at the flood?”?
Are you assuming again that YOUR organization is the only means of salvation?
Was Noah in the religion that calls itself “Jehovah’s Witnesses? Did NOAH follow a “Governing Body”? It is Very unreasonable if you think so.
Noah was not a Christian, because Christ had not yet been born and he was not a Jew, Abraham had not yet been born to whom God made the covenant with, and he was not a Catholic since they started a few centuries after Christ, so again WHAT was the point of your question?
No doubt Noah and his three sons and all their wives had a close PERSONAL relationship with God, so are YOU suggesting that we all each should be on our OWN?
I MIGHT agree to THAT, to have a close PERSONAL relationship with God and his Son the Christ, but I do NOT agree to follow MEN blindly, especially when they mislead people.
The “organization” changes the meaning of the Bible to say that the “Ark” in modern day is their “organization”, but that DIRECTLY contradicts THE BIBLE when it says BAPTISM is that which corresponds to the Ark! 1St Peter 3:19-21
Now, take that thought further. To WHOM do YOU baptize yourself? Do YOU baptize yourself to the “organization” as their vows are now change to be since the 80’s to be vowed? Or are we supposed to be baptized to God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit?
Max, you avoided commenting on my other reactions to your previous comment. Are you afraid to admit and resistant to learning the REAL truth? Will you respond in depth now to what was the purpose of your question about the survivors of the flood to which I am now responding? Will you be opened and honest and “REAL”?
I hope you will learn how to really reason with scriptures rather than to just try to puppet phrases and thoughts that others have implanted in your mind. You said you have been associating with the JW’s since 1979, so you have had much time to absorb their phrases and mind suggestions, but have you learned to REALLY use the BIBLE?
How many JW’s REALLY know how to use the BIBLE? Honestly, they are taught to reason from the “Watchtower” and other religiously prejudiced literature. In fact, they use the “Watchtower” to interpret the Bible! Their “Watchtower” is the final word instead of the Bible.
I openly admit that I was also guilty in the past of being a puppet, even though I felt something was wrong, I followed their direction because that was all I knew since I was born and raised as a JW and was baptized in 1975. In my heart, I was being baptized to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit or God’s direction, NOT to an “organization” as they changed it to be in the 80’s.
When I was neglected, abused and then thrown away like trash by false shepherds in the “organization”, then my eyes started to become opened. Since then, I have learned how so many of the CHRIST’S sheep have also been skinned and tossed about like sheep without a shepherd and thrown away as I was, and even worse. As bad as I was treated, it was mild compared to many others.
It would be great if you could try using scriptures that really apply to Christian principles and that truly apply to the subjects in discussion, what ever discussion you would like to talk about, NOT as a criticism, but as what Christ would want us to do, to HELP others.
If there is a point that I am missing, help me, not with criticism and judgment, but with love and understanding, with mercy in your heart. Please do not try to push your “organization” down my throat, guide me with scriptures, scriptures that are to open the mind and heart to REAL truth.
As I told you before, I am NOT in any man made “organization”, as I do NOT follow any earthly “Religion”. Christ is my Shepherd now. Christ is my ONLY savior. Do I need another savior?
I DO need association, and I now get it by the LOVE of TRUE Christians like Jacqueline and others who are Bible Students! They love me and accept me even though I am NOT in their religion per say, but we are ALL brothers! This is the point that JW’s have not been able to grasp yet. JW’s evidently do NOT have the true love by their actions toward the lowly and weak. They despise the weak and sinners like me, who the CHRIST saw fit to SAVE!
How many different kinds of worshippers were saved at the flood?
Max – What Bible verse tells us that those who died in the flood were eternally destroyed and will not be resurrected? One of the greatest examples of wickedness in the Bible was the people of Sodom.
In 2 Pet 2:7 (NKJV) we read that God, “delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked.”
Matt 11:24 (NWT) 24 Consequently I say to YOU people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sod’om on Judgment Day than for you.”
Ezek 16:55 (NWT) Sod’om and her dependent towns, will return to their former state
So even the wicked people of Sodom will be restored to like in the kingdom for a period of judgment that is a trial period followed by a final judgment.
Isa 60:14 (NWT) “And to you the sons of those afflicting you must go, bowing down; and all those treating you disrespectfully must bend down at the very soles of your feet, and they will have to call you the city of Jehovah, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.”
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
It has been said that this can’t really include everyone, because some of the wicked will not receive a resurrection in order to bow down.
The future promise to the Church of Sardis is…
Rev 3: 9 (NWT) “Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying-look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you.”
Those of the synagogue of Satan who are not really spiritual Jews, but rather Apostates who will be resurrected in the kingdom and will bow before the resurrected bride of Christ on Paradise Earth.