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Isaiah 43:10 – YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.NWT Is Isaiah 43:10 speaking about today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses? See what the Bible Student Elders have to say. Give your own opinion or ask your own questions. On Saturday evening, June 16, former JW and Bethelite, and now a Bible Student Elder, David Stein will lead a round table discussion on this topic. Joining him will be Bible Student Elders Tom Ruggirello and Bill Dutka. You can call into this conference call Saturday evening. After the main discussion, you will be invited to participate with questions and comments. Please tell your friends to come join us. If you would like, mention us on your Facebook page. Get the word our so more can participate. We hope you can make it. To help prepare yourself for this discussion, you can check out this link: clicking here: |
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Peter,
you may want to meditate on John10:17,18
alon with Heb.1:6, Acts3:20,21 and Rev.21:2,3
Those are just a few,
the articles contain more…
and there are more articles to come about this subject,
also containing scriptural backing.
This truth is reason for great joy.
Jesus could have performed his miracles from an impersonal distance also.
But out of love…and to build the faith of those shown grace…
his touch was very loving and personal,
and Jesus properly declared his work as credited to God (John11:41,42),
as it will also be, in the Kingdom to come (John14:12,2; Rev.22:2,17; Gen.22:18)
I realize that these things are new.
But new things are due (Dan.12:4,9,10; Rev.22:10; 11:3; 10:7,8,11; 1:1)
Pearl -If these new things did not come to us from Brother Russell, than from who?
From Jesus Christ, the “faithful witness”, who shows his anointed slaves, the end of all things…thereby causing them to prophesy (Rev.3:14; 1Pet.4:7; Rev.1:1-3; 11:3). Neither the beginning of the “Bible Students”, nor the beginning of “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, declared the final witness of these two prophets.
I just realized that this last reply may not have been clear.
By “anointed slaves”, and “two prophets”…I am not referring to BS’s or JW’s,
but rather to the anointed prophets of Rev.11:3 (whose new prophecies will neither be accepted, nor believed. In fact, their words will “torment” those already set in their own minds. Rev.11:4-10).
Previous to their message, the world is still in darkness and confusion.
Jesus…through them, gives the last witness of this world.
They are from the womb of the dawn…the start of Day. (Psalm110:3; Rev.12:5; 2Pet.1:19; Rev.22:16; Luke1:76-79; Matt.17:11; Dan.2:35).
My points may not always be clearly stated. But the truth of scripture will beam into eyes that are simple. Hearts that “KEEP ON asking”, will be granted understanding. (Matt.11:25; Luke8:10)
Pearl – Sometimes we are not as clear as we could be since we may expect a negative reaction. An example is when Jesus said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. The Jews were ready to kill him for that.
I know that when I say I believe Brother Russell was the Faithful and Wise Steward of Luke 12:42 that many people think I am crazy. But I clearly say it because I believe it and I can defend this conclusion with a logical explanation of many scriptures. If I am wrong, than others should be able to provide a better explanation of what these Bible verses mean.
Many Reformers understood a “day” represents a year in Bible prophecy and they all identified the Papacy as the AntiChrist system. This Papal system persecuted the saints for 1260 years (539 to 1799) During this time the 2 Witnesses (Old and New Testament) prophecied in the sackcloth of dead languages when it was against the law for the common people to read the Bible.
Dan 12:4 tells us that his book was to be sealed until the time of the end. I believe we have been in this time of the end period and the Bro. Russell explained the meaning of Daniel (unsealed the book) in his Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures and now “the wise understand.” (Daniel 12:10) Is the book of Daniel no longer sealed? Yes, I think the book is now understood. Where can we find the explanation? In Volume 3.
Do you think Daniel is still sealed and that we still cannot understand it? If the book is no longer sealed and if we are in the time where “the wise will understand,” Then where is it that we can find this correct understanding if not Volume 3?
When Jesus asked Peter who the faithful steward was, he did not have one man in mind. Even Peter asked, “Are you speaking to US, or to ALL?”, showing that Peter was not thinking in terms of one man either (Luke 12:41). Jesus’ reply also, left the traits of faithful wisdom within the grasp of anyone, whom he might choose to give the household “the proper food at the proper time” (Luke12:42). “Happy is that slave if his Master, UPON ARRIVING, finds him doing so. He will appoint THAT slave over ALL his belongings” (Luke12:37,40; Matt.24:46,47).
This reward is not just for one man either. It is for all the faithful wise virgins (Matt.25:1,2)…144000 will be so appointed. All chosen ones are expected to be faithful and wise, and feed one another to the building up of the body under Christ. You may also have noticed (Luke12:37; Matt.25:10) that Jesus provides MORE spiritual food to the faithful, AFTER he arrives.
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We learn so much from these words of Christ. But I would point you to the fact that a steward would be present, when Christ ARRIVES (which he has not yet done 1Cor.11:26). Another fact, is that when that slave is found faithful upon Christ’s return, he will be appointed over ALL the Master’s belongings, which also has not yet occurred (Psalm2:8,9).
MANY slaves will be brought into account, when the master arrives (Matt.25:19). ALL will have to account for what work they did, with what Truth they were given (Matt.25:21,23; 1Pet.4:10). All these slaves make a contribution to the provisions (1Cor.12:21).
Although chosen as an apostle, Paul said that we can not “belong” to any faithful slave (1Cor.1:12,13), but all should belong to Christ (1Cor.3:21-23), as Truth is revealed through many members of his body. Even the angel who conveyed pure truth to John, called himself a “fellow slave” (Rev.19:10; 22:9). Truth does not begin and end with any one man, except the Christ (Eph.4:5; John14:6).
One fact backed by many scriptures, is that the living waters of truth would increase as the Kingdom drew near. Ezekiel relates that this water would increase as the Temple was neared completion (Eze.47:1-12; Rev.22:2; Zech.4:11,14; Rev.11:4). That Temple (1Cor.3:16; Eph.2:22; 1Pet.2:5) did not receive it’s capstone with Russell, but is still under construction (Zech.4:7).
The time of the end is not yet finished. Jesus told us that the anointed generation would be present until the end, and until all things “occur”/are accomplished (Matt.24:34). All the events in Revelation have not yet completed.
Jesus’ anointed slaves are still under command to feed his sheep…to have their lamps burning (Matt.5:14,16; Luke12:35). The light within those lamps will grow brighter as the end draws nearer, until the Truth is firmly established with the Kingdom’s arrival (Prov.4:18; 1Cor.13:10,12; 2Pet.1:19; Rom.13:11,12).
…
As the Truth is revealed through the final witnesses (Rev.11:3,4; Zech.4:2,3,4,9,11,12,13,14), it will not be according to the powerful portents and misleading inspired utterances that are rife at the end, and which saturate the religious world under Satan. It will trumpet a very different, unexpected message from what everyone previously believed (Rev.12:9; 16:13-15; 1Cor.3:12,13; Matt.7:24; 2Pet.3:11-13). Any faithful anointed who have proclaimed their partial truth, have made a contribution to the construction of the Temple and the Truth which flows from it. But if there were nothing new which needed to be declared just before the end of this world, the two witnesses who are dressed in repentance, would not need to be commissioned by Christ (Rev.11:3,4; Mark9:4,11,12,1; Mark10:40) (Rev.11:7; 13:7; 6:9-11; Luke17:35-37).
Pearl – Thanks for a response with scripture support. You really did not answer my question on whether Daniel is unsealed and if so, where do we find it correctly explained, if not by C.T. Russell.
Jesus’ answered Peter’s question (about who Jesus was speaking to), by elaborating on who are the servants (plural) of verse 37. Jesus explains that there is a Steward (not a servant, see vs 42) who is appointed to serve the servants the food Jesus is providing. Next, Jesus explains that these servants of vs 37 are made up of those with varying degrees of knowledge, understanding and accountability (vs 45-48).
Even if we only had Luke 12 to consider, the Steward of vs 42 could be a person. For example, John the Baptist turned out to be the “voice of one crying in the wilderness” (Isa 40:3; John 1:23). However there is evidence in Luke 12 that points to an individual.
1. Historically, a Steward (vs 42) was literally the head over the other servants (vs 37) in Biblical times.
2. The Steward (vs 42 singular) is serving Jesus’ food to the servants (vs 37 plural). One serving many.
3. Luke 12:35-37 is clearly 2nd Advent, not prior. Hence if a Steward group is serving provisions to a Servant group at Jesus’ second presence, the identity of the Steward group needs to be explained. I have never heard a good explanation of what this Steward is outside of C.T. Russell.
The most compelling evidence that the Steward is an individual is found outside of Luke 12 in Daniel and Revelation.
DANIEL
In connection with Daniel’s 1335 days (years) which bring us to 1874 (when added to 539 A.D.), three key words are mentioned in Daniel 12:12: “blessed,” “wait” and “come.” Jesus alludes to the 1335 days of Dan 12:12 in Luke 12:36-37 by stating all three of these words. Luke 12:36-37 is the only place in the New Testament where these three key words are found together “blessed,” “wait” and “come.” The statistical possibility of this being a coincidence is extremely unlikely. Even if we remove one of the three words, with only two remaining, we note that Luke 12:36-37 is still the only place in the New Testament where you find the two words “blessed” and “wait” together. The possibility of a coincidence here is astronomical.
What can we conclude? That in 1874 the Faithful and Wise Steward (C.T. Russell) was selected by Jesus to feed the servants the food Jesus was providing as then due at his return (Luke 12:43-44). We find this food in the Studies in the Scriptures series.
But there is more evidence.
REVELATION
In Rev 2 & 3 there are seven churches and seven messengers. We can determine that the seven messengers were seven men, who were light bearers, at seven different periods in Church history.
One way to deduce this is from Rev 1:20, “the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.” Since the twelve stars on the women’s head in Rev 12:1 are the 12 Apostles, we know that “stars” in Revelation represent men who are light bearers. Therefore, the seven angels/messengers (stars) are seven men who are light bearers. The last man would be in the 7th or last period. The Faithful and Wise Steward” of Luke 12:42 can be connected to the 7th Messenger of Rev 3:14 by the following two verses.
Luke 12:36 “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. 37 “Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes ; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them. (NASV)
Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock ; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (NASV)
In both passages, Jesus knocks and the faithful open to him, recline at table and eat the food. These two events are the same events. It is the time of the 7th Church and the 7th Messenger who is the Faithful and Wise Steward.
The sacred secret is brought to a finish, as the 7th trumpet is about to blow (Rev.10:7), and is associated with the arrival of the Kingdom (Rev.11:15). Do you believe that occurred over 100 years ago?
Daniel is explained, interpreted and revealed, through the scroll of Revelation…and Revelation is explained when Jesus receives that scroll (Dan.7:13; Rev.5:1,5,7), opens it’s seals, and gives that information to his slaves (plural) (Rev.1:1-3). The scriptures tell us (as given in the last post) that these increasing living waters of revealed truth, happen gradually as the Temple’s living stones are added, and the Temple is nearing completion. Each additional living stone adds to truth…not just one stone. Jesus tells us at Rev.11:3, that the correct understanding, not only of Daniel and Revelation, but of all the “scrolls” will be “opened” (Rev.20:12) by the testimony of his “Two Witnesses”, which according to the previous scriptures, are proven to be “the saints”…not the scrolls.
This occurs near the very end, which no, I believe according to much scriptural evidence, is not a century ago through one man.
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You say…
“Jesus’ answered Peter’s question (about who Jesus was speaking to), by elaborating on who are the servants (plural) of verse 37. Jesus explains that there is a Steward (not a servant, see vs 42) who is appointed to serve the servants the food Jesus is providing.”
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The “steward” is one of the servants/slaves of the Master also [see Luke12:45-47. His “steward” position is still a part of Christ body, as expressed in “abilities to direct”/”administration” (1Cor.12:28)]. Just as a house steward can not provide food for all, without the other servants to tend the garden, cook, etc…a steward needs the contribution of the other slaves to offer provisions. All take part in feeding the body of Christ (1Cor.10:17; 12:21,22,25). Any slave not bearing edible fruit, is to be cut down and thrown into the fire (John15:8; Matt.7:19). In fact Jesus says that his true disciples are recognized by their fruit (Matt.7:20). Their fruit, is spiritual food…their teachings/sayings (Matt.12:33,37). All the Chosen have this stewardship to provide spiritual food/fruit. You will see at 1Cor.4:1,2, that “stewards” are plural.
Would you not agree that the “apostles” were under obligation to provide spiritual food? The Prophets? The teachers? (1Cor.12:27-29) All must give the proper food at the proper time. The very anointing (1John2:20,27) gives knowledge. All those given knowledge, are under command to feed Christ’s sheep. Jesus said that the “greatest” (the steward, if you like) would be minister of all (Mark9:35). This is to be the role of ALL Christ’s brothers (John13:12-15). When they all share the provisions given them by the master (Matt.10:27), that water of life cleanses them all (Eph.5:26; John13:14)
Although all the Chosen have this responsibility, it does not follow that they are all present on the earth at once. There are specific anointed that the end-time prophecies apply to. They are few in number…yet “no man can number them”. Although sometimes referred to as singular, they are also referred to as plural…just as the “Beast”, “Harlot”, and “Man of Lawlessness” are not really a single person. You can read about this in depth, at (http://pearl-treesoflife.blogspot.com/)
The scriptures cited there also help to clarify the responsibility of all 144000 to provide spiritual “food”.
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The “seven times” are not literal.
As long as they are viewed as such, understanding will remain illusive.
Revelation is symbolic. The “seven”, and all the numbers (including 12), have symbolic meaning. The twelve stars represent the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel [ALL 144000 of her “sons” Gal.4:26)], and the woman who wears that crown, is the “woman” Covenant.
Luke12:36 is plural, and Rev.3:20 speaks to “anyone” who “hears My voice” (Matt.10:27). The opportunity is open to any such one found awake when he returns.
I have been called to serve those who are hungry…not those who are already full.
Pearl – Thanks Pearl. Since I am very busy, It may take some time before I can answer. I appreciate your honest effort to address the points I made and raise some good questions. You are very intelligent and well studied.
I would like you to clarify your last statement where you said, “I have been called to serve those who are hungry…not those who are already full.” I take that statement to imply that I am full. (Others might be less kind and say I am full of it.) Off course we should all be teachable, like little children, per Jesus advice. So I hope your assessment is not correct, but I appreciate your honesty and take no offense. But my question for you is how do you apply your statement to yourself? Are you full? hungry? or other? When you say, “I have been called…” do you mean on the same sense that all the anointed (spirit begotten) have been called or do you feel you have a particularly special or unique call or mission as a teacher?
Pearl – Thanks again for your intelligent rebuttal. Let me give a couple of reasons why I think so many people disagree with C.T. Russell on chronology and time prophecy.
1. Nearly all of Russell’s critics have never read his Volumes 2 & 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, so they don’t really understand his scriptural evidence. It is just the conventional wisdom that he is wrong. His critics don’t even give him the courtesy of conceeding he got real lucky by predicting such a significant date as 1914.
2. Most modern prophetic students imagine that end time propheclies relating to Jesus return will happen quickly and not last more than 3 1/2 to 7 years. This view is adopted from the Catholic Church’s counter Reformation movement and is contrary to how Bible prophecies were historically fulfilled in the past.
Take for example the two prophecies, one of the destruction of Tyre and the other about the destruction of Sidon. Each prediction was slowly fulfilled over several centuries.
The Reformers and Adventists understood that prophecy plays out over long PerIods of time and realized that the rule of they antI-christ system would last 1260 years, not days.
Now to your questions and points, yes I believe the 7th trumpet sounded in 1874 at which time the heavenly kingdom arrived, afterwhich Christ and the resurrected sleeping saints struck the image In 1914, breaking apart the iron and clay in the toes, meaning church/state rule broken in 1914 in the European empires (old Roman empire). This 7th trumpet sounds for a 1,000 years and we are have been at the part when “the nations were angry…” (Rev 11:18) and where the “mystery is finished” (Rev 10:7) and now we have the complete plan of God.
Remember that a key evidence of Jesus return is the message of the Faithful and Wise Steward as we saw previously by comparing Luke 12, Daniel 12 and Rev 3 (7th messenger).
Yes I agree that the sealed information is given to the slaves plural (Rev 5 & Luke 12:37)
In general I agree with your discussion on stewardship and feeding the flock. So in Luke 12:42, do you believe the “Steward” represents those anointed (spirit begotten) ones that will be feeding other anointed “servants” (Luke 12:37) after Jesus has returned? Please clarify your view.
Remember that all through out Bible history, Jehovah raised up Prophets, Judges, rulers, Apostles, etc. to lead his people. So it is very consistent, and in character, for Jehovah to have raised up 7 Messengers (Rev 3 & 4) to guide the true church during the Gospel Age.
You don’t really mean numbers in Revelation are not literal do you? Okay the seals and trumpets are symbolic, but the fact that there are seven of each is literal right? Whether you think the 1260 applies to days or years, you agree there are 1260 of them, right?
In Revelation, do you agree that a time is a prophetic year of 360 symbolic days? That 3 1/2 times equal 1260 symbolic days? And that 7 times equal 2520 symbolic days?
The problem is Peter, Many exJWs are scared stiff of any other religion and are so indoctrinated that JWs alone have the truth, that we seek to find a similar belief system and I was exactly the same.
Thankfully a Christian gave me a book before I had even left the cult, Evidence for Truth…Bible Prophecy.
In that book I learnt about a wonderful prophet who lived around the same time as Russell and was even more accurate about prophecy and especially Daniel. His name was Dr Gratten Guiness and made some amazing prophecies that were spot on.
Dr. Guinness was the pioneer in interpreting “the true meaning of the chronological statements, contained in symbolic prophecy, i.e., whether they are literal or whether they are figurative.”
The speciality of Dr. Guinness’ work lay in the related field of astronomy and prophetic chronology, in which his original research afforded results of sterling value, not alone in science but to Faith.
He for the first time demonstrated that Astronomy, which has been regarded by many as antagonistic to Revelation, is really a witness on its behalf.”
His great book, “Creation Centered in Christ,” is composed of two large volumes, the secong of which contains “Astronomical Tables, calculated by means of Prophetic periods regarded as Astronomical Cycles. These tables contain more than 100,000 solar and lunar positions, verified by 12,000 eclipses.
These tables have been submitted to the highest astronomical authorities, and approved as correct and trustworthy.”
We understand that a copy of the Second Volume with the Tables, is in use in all the observatories of the world. We saw a well used copy in the Denver Observatory. And these tables are based upon the chronological figures of Daniel, using days as years.
This overthrows the literal use of those inspired figures. Dear brethren, why do you not see this? How wonderfully this proves the inspiration of Daniel and other related prophetic scriptures! The following is a list of Dr. Guinness’ great works:
3.6. Time of the Gentiles
This period of 2520 years is called by Guinness; ‘the Times of the Gentiles’ based on Luke 21: 24. It is the full duration of time prophesied in the visions of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, in Daniel 2, and Daniel’s vision of four beasts, in Daniel 7. It is the lifetime, as it were, of the succession of Gentile empires predicted in these visions, the half of which is the 1260 years persecution of the saints by the enemy of God’s people symbolized by the 11th horn of the fourth beast:
As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
In Daniel 12:11-12, there is added to this period of 1260 years, in two stages an additional, supplementary period of 75 years. ‘From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. ‘How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days’.
Guinness discovered that the difference of 75 years is exactly the epact between 2520 solar and 2520 lunar years. (1290 – 1260 = 30) + (1335 – 1290 = 45) = 75 years) If 2520 years is properly understood to be the duration of the Times of the Gentiles, then the fact of the epact being precisely equal to the supplemental periods added in Daniel 12, may well indicate that the ‘Times of the
Gentiles’ can rightly be interpreted in either solar or lunar years.
One of the most interesting of Guinness’ discoveries was that the hour, day, month and year, of Revelation 9:15 is a soli-lunar-nodical cycle. ‘And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind’.
Calculating this period on the Biblical basis of one prophetic day for an historical year, we arrive at the sum of 391.041 years* (or 391 years and 15 days).
This 391 year soli-lunar-nodical cycle is also fairly accurate, with a soli-lunar error of +0.22 days, and a lunar-nodical error of -0.19 days. The discovery of this prophetic period as a soli-lunar-nodical cycle is original to Henry Grattan Guinness.
A possible historical fulfilment of the 391 year prophecy in Rev 9:15, can be measured from the commencement of Turkish aggression into Europe, in cooperation with the Catalan Grand Company’s attack on Emperor Andronicus in 1308, until the Peace of Karlowitz, on January 26, 1699, marking the end of ‘Turkey’s power of offence in Europe,’ which is 391 years. Other numbers which happen to be soli-lunar cycles are not very rare.
3.7. Application
Some applications of the above mentioned information can be seen in –
3.7.1. Restoration of Israel
In Light for the Last Days Guinness, who passed away in 1910, pointed out that 1917 will be a crucial year for Jewish restoration.
That proved to be; as on 2 November 1917 the ‘Balfour Declaration’ was signed. This document was a declaration that Palestine is the historical national home of the Jewish people. At the end of the last paragraph of the lunar tables, whilst discussing the Book of Ezekiel, Guinness had pencilled the date 1948 as important.
It was a logical projection of the 1260th year marking the times of the Gentiles. Again he was proved correct, because history shows that on 14th of May 1948 Israel became a nation.
Therefore Russell is no more a special steward than any other faithful person.
We find many problems when we try to fit our World view into a ONE MAN IDEOLOGY.
Blessings
David
Great info. David, thanks!,however, we should remember that calculating “times and seasons” can easily side track us from the real concern we should have viz…the salvation of mankind through Jesus Christ!
Russell didn’t come come up with many new ideas. He studied the Reformers and Adventists and was able sift out the bad and find the good. Future dates derived from his work include:
1878 End of Jewish double. Favor returns. Jews purchase land in Israel and establish first settlement.
1914 WWI leads to Balfour Declaration. Kings lose thrones. Church/state rule ends.
1948 End of stage 2 of Jewish Double. Israel becomes a nation.
Russell’s work on 2520 years was popular long before Dr. Guinness work in 1910. The Bible is consistent and a prophetic year is always composed of 360 days. For example, 3 1/2 times/years equals 1260 days.
It is possible that Jehovah could have additionally provided a variation of the 2520 days/years based on lunar. I am not convinced, but will keep an open mind.
Other than 1917, which was a variation of Russell’s popular view, did Dr. Guinness have any other exact future time predictions that worked out?
Of course Ken, you are absolutely correct and that is what I am saying. Peter raised the point that Russell was some kind of special messenger in the last days…I posted all that stuff on Grattan Guiness, because reading the book about Prophecy back in 1998, I realised that the WT position of prophecy was not correct and that other faithful men contributed much to prophetic understanding back then and since. That book helped me get out.
My own wife gets Visions from the Lord and the first one she had in 2003 was of a Tower on a mound and suddenly cracks appeared in the walls and then stones started rolling out…then she saw the bright light of Yeshua shining down into the Tower.
Since that time, the WT has certainly been rocked.
Blessings David
Interesting experience your wife had..indeed!!Let’s hope it comes true:)
Dr Guiness wrote the material before 1886 as it was published that year. Look at this site, it is amazing and this is what got me to realise that Israel are still Gods Covenant people and that they are still a part of the Gods plan.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/birds-flying
Grattan DIED in 1910, six years before Charles did. He was mainly an outstanding preacher of his day and preached the Gospel and was involved in a number of Revivals.
I do not believe that Russell came up with his prophetic words before Guiness did.
So let us stop looking at MEN and look at the only one who matters…our Lord and Saviour.
Bless you again
David
Matt 5:16 Likewise let you light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father; who is in the heavens.
Luke 17:10 NEB: “So with you; when you have carried out all your orders, you should say, “We are servants and deserve no credit, we have only done our duty.”
Luke 19:40 JB:” but he answered, “I tell you if these keep silence the stones will cry out.”
Gal. 3:26-28 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were united with Christ in baptism have been clothed with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
These scriptures applies to every man or woman that has drawn the breath of life.
What part of “all” don’t humans understand. Many have carried the baton of Christ and laid down in Sheol as another picked it up and started running with it.
By God’s Grace
Jacqueline
David – Russell was started teaching these things by about 1877, nearly ten years prior to 1886. I only brought up Russell in response to your comments about his teachings on Oct 4. I prefer to discuss scriptures.
Peter,
There was no “reply” link in your two latest comments to me…so I put it here.
So do you believe that the Kingdom began (in 1874) with many of it’s Kings missing? (Rev.20:4,6 “ruled WITH Christ for the Thousand Years”)
Or
Do you believe that all who claim to be “Chosen” heirs since Russell, are mistaken?
—
(Rev.6:10,11 reveals that those already sealed must wait under the altar until the number is completed Rev.14:1) According to Rev.6:10,11 God acts when the number is completed. Also, the kingdom arrives after ALL of them prove faithful to death (Rev.12:10,11) which is what conquers Satan, causing his being cast down.
So they either all proved faithful to death, prior to 1874; and all those who think they are chosen after that date are delusional….unless you think that the Kingdom rules without it’s kings. I don’t understand.
Jacqueline…
When Jesus said “You are the light OF the world”, this light was not everyone in the world. There are also sons of darkness/night (1Thess.5:4-6). The ones “called out of darkness” and given light to shine, are identified at 1Pet,2:9:
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
These are identified there, as being called into light. They therefore have it, to shine. That light started with Jesus (John8:12). John12:46; James2:17,20; Rev.19:8; 12:11; 20:4 show some of the deeds these Chosen ones did, which caused them to be called out of darkness into light, so that they might obey Matt.5:14,16.
Peter,
I have no personal basis to “disagree” with anyone. I don’t think your really understand my position. I do no research. I do no calculations or deductions, nor do I have intelligence or wisdom based upon my own pursuit of knowledge. I am simply forwarding what I have been handed. Any exchange that takes place between us, which raises the reasons other people have accepted or rejected what you believe, can not influence the message I have been handed to announce.
If I myself can not contribute my own understanding to what I declare, how then can I allow others to?
As I said before….I work to offer that which I have been given, to those who seek it. Those who are already full have no room to receive it.
I myself, am not full nor satisfied. Each moment… I remain open to him who teaches me (1John2:28). I expect this will be the case, forever. I will only feed from him. I have repented of insulting him in the past, by turning to others.
As for your other question… ALL who are called are “given a special call or mission”. (see Eph.4:11; 1Cor.12:29). If you are asking which I have been called to be….I did not realize, until I found Numbers 12:6.
Pearl – I feel like your are looking for weaknesses to expose in Bible Student thinking, but I encourage you to look for the beauty and harmony, which will take much study and effort in the Volumes. There is probably much we agree on, but we are focusing in on the details of difference. If we do this in Christian love, it is fine.
Rev 6:10 occurs under the 5th seal, which corresponds to the time of the 5th church, during the reformation. It is similar to the concept in Gen 4:10 of Abel’s blood crying out from the ground. This is a DIRECT parallel to Hebrews 11:4 where Abel yet speaks from the dead. The parallel is strengthened when we consider that Abel’s death was due to a difference in sacrifice with his brother. The apostate church slays the true BECAUSE of a difference in sacrifice. The dead ones “call out” from the grave asking if this crime will ever find retribution. This cry is said to be a LOUD VOICE. Again (as we shall see) since this picture takes place at the end of Sardis, it takes place at a time when the accumulated voices of Waldo and Wycliffe have awakened the minds and longings of all who have been suffering under Papal domination. As soon as Luther sounds his trumpet, the repressed accumulations of many years of frustrations will be heard. Because this very verse most likely refers to the year 1518, the sounding of the Loud Voice seems a most apt illustration of events. 1518 is the year in which Luther nails his objections to the church door.
If our only verses on the 1,000 years were from Rev 20, the natural conclusion would be that the complete glorified church (body of Christ) would reign with him and the full 1,000 years must be future. So when someone like me says the 1,000 years have begun, it seems that I must be a crackpot and no one need read any further.
The problem is that when one reads Volumes 1-3, it becomes apparent that there is a mountain of scriptural evidence showing that Jesus has already invisibly returned and the sleeping saints were raised, the remaining saints being raised at death throughout this end of the age Harvest period. Studying and understanding these concepts with the overwhelming scriptural support takes a huge commitment of time. It is just easier to take the simple route and say that this supposed mountain of scriptural evidence contradicts Rev 20 and therefore cannot be true. The better course is to study further to see of seemingly conflicting scriptures can be resolved.
I will address Rev 20, but first let me say that even if I am wrong and the 1,000 years is future, than my adjustment would simply be to say that once Jesus has completed the harvest work of his second advent, the 1,000 years will begin then. I would have no problem with that, except that I believe there is much evidence from the Bible to show that the 1,000 years has already begun. People generally just aren’t interested enough to investigate the evidence (Volumes 1-3), which cannot be covered in this small space.
The NAS translation is accurate for Rev 20:4, “ . . . judgment was given to them, even the souls of those,
. . . AND THEY CAME TO LIFE and reigned . . .” So Rev 20:4 is not saying that one thing happened for the 1,000 years, that they reigned for a 1,000 years. It is saying that two things happen during the 1,000 years: 1) they come to life and 2) they reign. This whole process takes 1,000 years and these sleeping saints raised first reign for a greater part of the 1,000 year period than the saints raised later in the harvest.
Why must the Church be complete before the reign can begin? All the parables and prophecies in the Bible usually describe groups that encompass a period of time when often many generations of people come and go, so often the complete group never exists at any one time. For example, the Matt 13 parable of the Wheat and Tares covers the whole Gospel Age, from the time when “men slept” (apostles slept in death), through the time “let them grow together” (the centuries after the Apostles died), “until the Harvest” (the end of the Age which began over 100 years ago). The wheat and tares represent generations of Christians that lived and died over the centuries. The reign begins in Christ and continues as His body members’ join Him. The complete process lasts 1,000 years up until the Little Season of Rev 20.
This reign has been going on for over 100 years now and its invisible influence has created all the problems we see in Satan’s world:
1) Increase in knowledge, technology, Internet, etc. (Dan 12:4)
2) Increase in travel -trains, planes and cars. (Dan 12:4)
3) Great time of trouble that is now worldwide (Dan 12:1)
4) Daniel’s people (nation of Israel) being delivered (Dan 12:1)
5) Book of Daniel unsealed and understood (Dan 12:4, 10)
All of this is undermining Satan’s rule. The people of earth have lost faith in all its institutions (government, business & religion)
I know that to many people this is difficult to follow, but that is because it is like jumping from basic math to trigonometry and skipping algebra. I suggest that rather than skip the algebra, we examine the Studies in the Scriptures.
Replying to your post below…again no link.
Unfortunately, the assertions you are making are predominantly applied to world events, over which Satan holds complete control (1John5:19; 2Cor.5:7; 1Cor.2:14). These assertions are not in harmony with what Holy Spirit has shown me. I do not learn from men (Prov.3:5,6), whose teachings are not in accord with what I have been given.
You seem able to understand how those who were in covenant with God (physical Jews) hold a central place in God’s attention; but seem to overlook that those currently in covenant, are the ones to whom God’s prophecies apply this very day (not to governments of Satan’s world, nor religions which are the table of demons).
As I said, my objective in not to find fault…but to be found faithful with what I have been given.
You are clearly coming from a stance of confidence in the Faith you have collected for yourself. I do not seek to dissuade you, but only to offer scriptures for comparison to your assertions; according to what I was shown. The “two witnesses” have repented (sackcloth Rev.11:3; Luke10:13; Jonah3:8) of their previous subjection to men (Rev.13:8,7) and their demon-inspired deceptions (13:5,10,13,14). The only way for the Chosen (in the time of the end) to be found faithful, is for them to be “bearing witness to Jesus” (John15:26,27; Rev.12:17) and what message HE is providing (Luke12:37,40), not bearing witness to the provisions of men.
Pearl hello, the reply tab is by the name of the poster at the beginning (top) of their comment.(:)
Pearl – Thanks for your honesty and again the scriptures you have provided. Can you explain to me how the Holy Spirit has guided you to your understanding? Have you felt the Holy Spirit guiding you to the correct conclusions as you have studied? Have you heard an audible voice explain the Truth to you? Other? Please explain.
I have met a few Ex-JWs that feel they have received a special revelation from Jehovah and have been appointed to some special mission of teaching others. If we put them all in a room together, none of them would agree with each other. I am not saying you fall into this category. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Yes, I have used the reply links there before, but that link is missing from all the latest comments.
Peter,
I have already left all the answers to your latest questions in the previous posts. The substance of the answers, are not in my comments, but are in the scriptures. I guess if you wanted to avoid reading all of them, a succinct answer would be to repeat Numbers12:6.
I have also already provided links which go into detail regarding my experience with Jehovah’s spirit.
The anointed are gathering and finding greater harmony in what spirit is now giving us. Not all are with us as yet, but the number is growing.
Pearl – I think I understand how you are reading into these scriptures. In my opinion your point is not clearly stated. However, I sympathize with your reasoning of the benefits of a personal presence as at the first advent being Intimate, personal and effective. If there will be a lot of materIalizing and personal contact, I have no objection If the Lord determines that to be the best approach.
I was cut off near the end of the program, but wanted to leave the scriptures I was asked for…
Someone on the panel asked for scriptures to enforce Rev.21:2…that indeed the 144000 will materialize to perform their earthly rule (Rev.5:10), and that it is God’s will to give them the double portion as firstborn sons (Rev.20:6; Rev.14:4; Deut.21:17; Isa.61:7); meaning both the heavens, AND the earth as their inheritance (Psalm2:8; Luke22:29; Gen.22:18; 28:14,12,13; Gal.3:29). (Psalm37:11,29; Rev.19:8; Psalm2:8)
Those scriptures are:
Heb.1:6 and Acts3:20,21
For those who wish to see more of what the scriptures say about this subject,
here are a few articles:
http://pearl-materialize.blogspot.com/
http://jacobsladder-obadiah.blogspot.com/
and if you want something light….
http://pearl-holycity.blogspot.com/
My directory of articles is located at http://www.blogger.com/profile/13281232149590681155
and the main page for current “questions and answers”, is:
http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/
It seems that the “new creation” being both flesh and spirit was a difficult concept for some to grasp. Perhaps the illustration of our own human offspring will help with this. When we have a child, is that child made of the mother, or the father? Although that child is made of both, it stands as a unique individual from both parents (new). The bible makes clear the glorious freedom that this new creation… these sons of God, (Rom.8:21) will enjoy;
and we should not cut Jehovah’s hand short, in His creative abilities (Matt.22:29; Dan.4:35; Psalm115:3; Isa.55:9; 14:24) to give these ones both a spiritual and fleshly life, as Christ also
had after his resurrection (1Pet.3:18; 1Cor.15:44; John21:14; 1Cor.15:6; Acts1:11; Rev.21:2; 22:17)
Anyone with any question, can contact me at pearl144000@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Pearl
Pearl – Thanks. I looked up every scripture you quoted. Although these are all familiar to Bible Students, I am always impressed by your knowledge of the Bible and the scriptural support you present to make your case. I tried to put myself in your shoes and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that the “New Creation” is both flesh and spirit. I agree partly In the sense that “we have this treasure (Holy Spirit) in earthen vessels.” (2 Cor 4:7). We are certainly begotten to a hope reserved in heaven (1 Pet 1:3-4).
Yes , the glorified New Creation (body members of Christ) will inherit and reign over the earth. However this does not prove that these glorified Saints will have bodies of flesh. At times, angels have materialized into bodies of flesh temporarily, and certainly the glorified body of Christ will be able to do the same. However, angels are spirit beings, even if they can at times be permitted to materialize. The glorified body of Christ are Spirit beings who will have the ability to materialize, just as Jesus did in the 40 days following his resurrection.
Now, if you want to take the position that the glorified body members will spend most of theIr time in a materialized form, my response is that I don’ t think so, but I don’t really know. As far as I can tell, the Bible Is not clear on this. If we can make mobile calls and send text messages, certainly materializing is not the only communication option available to the glorified Church.
A list of scriptures to make the case that Jehovah, Jesus, the angels and the glorified Church are exclusively Spirit beings, not fleshly, can be found by clicking on this link:
Jesus said, “my flesh I give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51) Jesus paid the Ransom price with his perfect human life to satisfy justice “a life for a life.” (Deut 19:21) I don’t think he can take it back. Nor can we.
Just my thoughts.
To Jacqueline;
Thank you for your reply.
Max
You are welcome.
To Jacqueline;
Why did I show can that what he reprted was wrong? To prove him wrong? No! Paul was not afraid of being wrong. Acts 25:11,”If I have broken the law and done something for which I deserve the death penalty, I do not ask to escape it. But if there is no truth in the charges they bring against me, no one can hand me over to them.”
Do well spoken of BS,s want any of their fellow believers saying things that are not true? There is not one BS that I know who would. What did I recommend for that one? Go to the BS convention and take notes. What else do you think would happen on the two hours of feellowship their? Not singling anyone out a wellseasoned BS would suggest we always try to speak the truth. Would that help? It might!
Did Jesus ever help some who weren’t believers in his God? And what attitude did Jesus show when people weren’t in his group? Luke 9:50,”Do not try to stop him, Jesus said to him and to the other disciples, “because whoever is not against you is for you.”
That happened because others were casting out demons but not of their group. So if I try to help a person become better,have I done wrong?
Pastor Russell had a good attitude when people left. Something to the effect if they found something better in their eyes we wish them well.
And I can’t help but believe Peter, Jeff and Humbleman would mind when I read or hear their info.
Having said that I hope ypu all have a wonderful day.
P.S. Back a ways a former JW contacted me and the person was a nice person, but then asked what I thought. Rather then converting that one I kindly said, I would rather not give you the answer for it will hurt you. That allowed the person 3 choices. 1. Ignore it and continue on. 2. Ask for it anyway. 3. Never respond again,kill the friendship. 3 was the choice. I try to respect peoples feelings, but I an far from perfect.
Max, I am admin also and have I believe a responsibility to openly let all commenters know who we are and our agenda. This is not a website to return ones to JW. It is one to help them heal and to learn what the Bible truly says without guilting them to an organization just to Jesus and Jehovah. We are non denominational. We don’t want to beat up on our commenters and we don’t want to be jeering at them. Above all we want them to know when they are dealing with a Jehovah Witness. This is important, because they might not want to reveal to much of themselves to this person. You came on this site within hours of a direct representative from watchtower media.org. Are you with the media.org site? I don’t know, but I will not risk anyone here that has a family to lose let you gain their confidence and you turn them in. You do not act like a JW in good standing with your organization. That in itself does not bother me because I don’t accept any manmade org. policies when it comes to the bible. But you say you are a witness. Well Max my 61yrs plus says you are either a plant by them to disrupt or you are not a JW. A Jw would sooner sit with the devil himself than come on a site with the BS. Only those mourning, sighing and groaning over the detestable things done in the name of Jehovah would.
And about convertion, I believe God chooses ones and then he qualifies them and uses them. Not qualified ones then he uses. So unless you state that you are a witness when you answer I will do it for you because I believe if Ken was fooled by you then new ones to this site will be also. I do have this authority as a Part of the Administration Team. Br. Peter, Br. Jeff, Br Kris will add or subtract from what I have said. But I know a rock hidden beneath the waters of our love fest when I see one. Thank you. Jacqueline
PS: I felt your reply to Ken was a correction, reproof and beat up type of reply. Ken and anyone else on here have the right to express what their experience was at the kingdom hall without you trying to prove them wrong. No one is going to go and check your watchtower quotes to see if you are correct. If that is what this website was about we would pdf them over to the watchtower download site. I am sure I am not the only ex-JW forum that has expressed concern over your agenda not being clearly spelled out. You are versed in the bible and know where to find many scriptures where Jesus and the apostles openly before all revealed ones who might be injurious to the flock.
To Ken;
They don’t let rabble rozzers in like me. I’mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm BAHHHHHDD TO THE bone.
Rabble rozzer?? Are thought you were a BS! Are you a rebel BS?
To Ken;
Please attend the Milwaukee convention this week-end. They have a whole list of Bbible Student speakers. I used to work in that zip code for 5 years.
Max, is this Milwaukee convention on Sat. and Sun.? I won’t be able to go on Sat. but maybe Sunday. What time does it start on Sunday?
Max, nevermind, I found the convention schedule…..I’ll try to be there on Sunday, will you be there?
Also Ken, the BS are unlike the Witnesses in one respect, they know the persons coming to the conventions generally. Predators, pedophiles don’t find it to be a pedophile paradise because there is respect for the children and women. So it is best to go thru Jeff or Br. Peter. Just a side bar for those wanting to attend a convention, let Administration help you.
Ken we have a Bible Student convention in Milwaukee. Jeff is able to give you all of the correct info for that. I might be there Sunday I am not sure yet. Also if you are going to attend let Br. Peter or Jeff help you. We have persons you contact for different things. Max is not aware that 19 is not a BS and would not have attended the African convention. He is also not aware of the accomodations etc for the BS conventions. He is a JW that love to hang out with the Bible Students and we welcome him but he does not have the info to point you to a convention. Jeff or Br. Peter will do that.
Ken, we look forward to seeing you on Sunday. If you need directions or more information please let me know.
We would be happy to see you again!
Thanks Jeff!I’m going to try using “map quest” to get directions, if that doesn’t work I’ll let you know. Hope to see you there!
To Ken;
No praise to Jesus what so ever in WT study. Para 1 page 22 read Mat 24:21,22. Who said those words? Jesus! Right!
Who told us Jehovah will have it right down to the day an hour? Page 24 Mat 24:36 Jesus! Right!
Page 25 “By means of his Son, Jehovah provided instructions for survival.” Who is Jehovah’s Son? Jesus! Right!
Page 25 “But how would Jesus followers recognize when this prophecy was being fulfilled? Mat 24:15,16.
Page 26 Read Mat 24:17,18, said by Jesus. “With the warring parties away, Jesus fpllowers suddenly had an opportunity to flee. Jesus had specifically instructed them to leave their material possessions behind and depart without delay.”
page 26 Question 15,16, a. b. “What specific instruction did Jesus give.”
Also on that page it says,”heedong Jesus instruction” “For example,Jesus command.”
When Bible books like Gen,EX,Hab,and ZEP are being discussed Jesus does not come to mind. But as you can see He plays a major role in salvation.
Which ever BS group you belong to when your handing out their Lit. please let me know.
Hi max, that’s why I said; “as I recall”, I wasn’t attentive to the whole WT study, I guess that teaches me to be more careful before I speak! I may have got this meeting mixed up with another but,at any rate, Jesus is STILL being mentioned less and less in favor of the GB…that I’m sure of!!
Hi my dear bro Matthew Davis. i have a question for you do you believe the bride was complete in the first century and the lambs marriage has all ready taken place. ? the reason i ask is because Armageddon does not happen until the marriage has taken place. Christ will return with his holy ones Zechariah 14 v 5 jude 14 colossians 3 v 4
Here’s an article that discusses how true Christians met in the 1st century:http://endtimes-biblereport.com/Current_Issue_files/61OneTrueChurchWeb.pdf
This is good, thanks. I am going back now to read more. I like this journal’s articles. Ken, I have gotten 3 more invites to things since Wednesday. There must be a push to get ones back. Have you heard of anything like this? Or maybe it is just my friends here.
Hi Jacqueline, I glad you liked the article, I found it encouraging,especially,in comparison to WT and how it’s modeled after Christendom and NOT the 1st century Cong.I haven’t noticed a push to get members back around here but we do have 5(Five) that are DF’d now.
Ken in your cong DF”d? Or in your area including other cong? Most that are DF’d here have gone to other religions as they were DF’d for asking questions about the teachings.
Jacqueline, the 5 Df’d are in my wife’s(previously I called it mine)Cong.Interesting…..most of the exJw’s in your area have gone to other religions…do you know which religions they’ve gone to?
Those that are DF -Catholic-1 brother, BS-2 brothers, I have heard some went back where they came from. Many religions have a special ministry for ex- JW, one sister even went to witcham for a bit but identifies more now with the views expressed by BS.Another I don’t know what the .sister’s religion is, I am going to try and find her and let her know what I have found. I think the elders made the sisters move their cars. Some sisters used to walk out of the KH when my stalker (still an elder) gave a talk as a visiting speaker. They all just hugged me tightly but didn’t mention anything spiritual and I want my conduct to show them I didn’t spit up peas soup nor did my head spin around. To see me survive and go to conventions will be a witness when they need help. I let them know they are always welcome in my home and drop in for water or restroom visit when in service or on the beach. Our love for each other was sincere. I will never make my guest uncomfortable in my home. I know their rules and I stayed within their conscience.
Thanks Jaqueline for the info. I like how you keep showing love to your fellow man no matter what! Since you travel around so much, I guess I’m confused as to where you live…you mentioned a beach and a resort, so I’m assuming you live near an ocean?
I live 1 1/2 blk from Lake Michigan inside the Indiana dunes park. From May 15th- Sept 15th they will tow your car if you park and there are so many persons taking staycations, so the friends park where they know the persons. I do travel a lot. Not as much as I used too however, I tour with entertainers as the psycho-therapist. All long running major tours have someone like a chiro-psych therapist or some form of doctor. That is where I got the time to search the web from 2002-2009 and learn the truth about the truth. I normally worked in my office long hours but while on tour in my RV I had time to read and learn exactly mostly what Jesus had to say. Not just study books. I listen to the greatest man book probably 10 times while driving coast to coast. It was on the road where I saw the New World translation was not exactly conveying the right thoughts. Matthew thru Rev., I much have covered that at least 10 times or more. It was at these quiet times I was able to get in touch with God and I recognized the role Jesus played. I was overcomed with gratitude and love for Jesus in a special way. The JW had taken Jesus away from me.
Ok Jacqueline, that clears it up. Speaking of the role of Jesus; I went to my Wife’s JW meeting yesterday(6/24/12)and after the watchtower study the elder who conducted it said: “Isn’t it great how the faithful slave provides us food just when we need it”…..again no praise to Jesus whatsoever!However, they did mention him two times if I recall right….once for the opening prayer and the other for the closing
Correct and that is what bothered and offended me that they would attribute to men what Jesus has made possible through his sacrifice. When they started saying at the end of some conventions , “the governingbody loves you after prayer then walk off the stage. They wanted not the prayer but them as the last words you hear. I decided I wasn’t going to worship these men. A 22yr old just died for them this weekend from what a simple blood transfusion is known and guaranteed to fix with sickle cell. It is used on a regular basis and he would have lived it took two weeks for him to slowly die.
I will be MIA for a bit as I have 3 grandchildren with me for a week and today we are off to the beach and rock hunting. (all boys 3,5,9) Loving the life Jesus died for! Until later Ken.
Ok Jacqueline…have fun and watch out for “Jaws”!
its my personal opinion that the war of armagedon began after jesus resurection and will come to its conclusion when jesus returns in the near future to put earth and its creatures back into its perfect state,,now who survives the great day of gods wrath ? thats pretty darn simple ! Whosoever is calling upon the name of jehovah will be saved… and that word whosoever is put their to let you know that anybody doing just that will be saved.. now thats not a promise that you in your old body will survive that day but its a promise that you will be changed in the blink of an eye so as to not suffer death. remember it is apointed all to die,but then the judgemet, those on gods side need have no fear of death he is no longer your enemy, he is you obediant taxi driver to your new improved perfect body.but for the wicked he is a strong police officer aresting you to be delivered to god wrath ! and does the bible not say it is a fearfull thing to fall into jehovah anger ? ok one final thing the word armagedon comes from the hebrew harmagedon often ascociated with hinom the garbage dump were fires were kept burning, it also means the battle to see who you are in harmoney with! In plain english your natural life ! hmmm perhaps things become a bit clearer…any how thats my two cents..