We Bible Students from this Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses website would like to wish you and all of our friends around the world a happy and blessed new year.
How was 2014 for you? Are you spiritually growing, thriving, enjoying your Bible Study and liberty in Christ? We pray that you are.
As intended, if this website has been a sanctuary of comfort, encouragement and honest investigation, we rejoice that it has been a blessing for you. We understand that not everyone will agree with all we have to say, however that is okay with us. What is important is that you can express your views here, see what others have to say and makeup your own mind based on reason and scripture. No one can identify you. No one can report you. You are not alone. You have friends.
It is not our purpose to attempt to change the JW world into the early Watchtower Bible Students, as we are. However, it is our desire to share a more compassionate and accurate view of Jehovah’s love and mercy, hoping this will provide healing, hope and encouragement for those trapped by the fear of dying in Armageddon (if not totally faithful to the earthly JW Organization). For those, we hope it was not another year of anxiety, fear and depression under the control of a strict human organization?
We are excited to report that we experienced amazing blessings and growth in 2014. Many have personally testified to us that they had received hope and encouragement as they learned more of Jehovah’s true love and mercy. As they have journeyed over the Internet into the Bible Student world, anxiety has diminished and the feelings of peace and joy have grown.
Four and a half years ago, in May of 2010, we believe that the Holy Spirit encouraged us to launch the Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses website. Within a month of the launch, Jehovah brought Sister Jacqueline to discover the Bible Students. After learning of her zeal for Jehovah and years of effort to comfort and encourage injured JWs, I quickly invited her to join this effort. Finally we had someone on board who actually new what they were doing! LOL. The rest is history.
Since that date, 147,624 unique friends have visited this website 215,463 times. These are not huge numbers, however our growth accelerated last year. In December of 2014, we had 4,219 unique visitors on our website 6,635 times. We think this growth is driven by unique content, word of mouth over social media and blogs, and by a new “Library for JW – Watchtowers” app for Android and the Iphone/Ipad. This new app is receiving nearly 200 downloads a day and accelerating, while driving more traffic to our website. When you add dozens of other Bible Student websites and apps, the number of people we have been reaching in recent years are in the millions. The discovery of Bible Students by JWs is a surprise that most JWs don’t know what to do with, but it is evidence that the organization, who historically had claimed we were all dead, was slightly exaggerating! LOL.
Even though only a very small percentage of JWs know Bible Students exist, the trend is upward. It is only a matter of time, maybe even years, before most JWs are aware we exist. No doubt at some point the Governing Body will change their strategy from ignoring Bible Students to identifying us as dangerously deceptive Apostates. Even so, a growing awareness by JWs of a more friendly and encouraging source for spiritual support may have a destabilizing impact on the strict and ridged control structure this strict organization.
Sadly, many who have freed themselves of the organization out of anger, bitterness and sorrow have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, either going back to the denominational Churches or becoming atheists. Why do such large numbers of Ex-JWs become atheists? It is because the organization is in place of Jehovah and Jesus. When they recognize the tyranny and corruption of the organization, they equate that with Jehovah and Jesus. This is why it is so important to place your faith directly in God’s Word, the scriptures. When men fail us and disappoint us, Jehovah and Jesus will remain strong in our hearts and the center of our faith.
Many who have been both hurt by and are angry at the JW Organization hope to tear it down. We think that anger will not succeed in tearing it down, however revealing Jehovah’s true LOVE is the greatest means of breaking up this rigid organization into a looser and free worldwide association, not subject to central control, similar to the so called “True Jehovah’s Witnesses” in Russia and the former Soviet Eastern European nations. These Jehovah’s Witnesses have not been under the control or influence of the Governing Body since World War II.
In December, we posted the article “Is JF Rutherford the Grinch Who Stole Christmas?” This article generated great traffic and discussion. Anna had already been on our site and David came on a well, like a tag team from Bethel and they vigorously defended the JW Organization’s position on Christmas, disfellowship, etc. Out of character, we got very aggressive in engaging them in tough debate. With David and Anna, polite discussion would only allow them to step all over us. We allowed this discussion to continue for a few weeks for a reason. JWs hear this thinking all the time at the Kingdom Hall, yet the rhetoric is never refuted. We wanted to prove that with reason and scripture that Goliath can be taken down and these arguments can be refuted. We also wanted to pull back the curtain and clearly demonstrate that SHUNNING and BREAKING UP FAMILIES is against scripture.
At one point, Daz lamented, “I have something to say that saddens me but I feel I need to say it. I have noticed recently that there has been unrest on this site, this was not apparent when I first joined or at least it never seemed to be going on. This site was such a support for me & I know it has been for many others too but of late there seems to be a lot of bickering, accusations, judgments being made upon who someone might or might not be! What must this look like to all the guests that visit this site, not just them but also to established members on here too!” A misunderstanding with QNA at this time led into further debate with David and Anna.
Around the Date of December 25, I stopped permitting comments from David and Anna. If permitted, they would continue to barrage us with their pat answers and wear us down. Honestly, we were getting feedback of discouragement from some supporters of our site. We accomplished our purpose of refuting the rhetoric and showing shunning and breaking up families to be unscriptural and then we moved back more positive discussions. I have changed the site where all comments now are moderated. [We only moderated for about a month then went back to no moderation] We will continue to allow comments from those who disagree with us or want to debate us, however, we will limit this so that it does not dominate and discourage. In the past, what has made us so different is that we are not an ATTACK JWs website. We would prefer to focus on encouraging each other and focusing on the wonderful aspects of the Bible and God’s plan.
God’s Plan is beautifully summarized in Eph 1:9,10 – “He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the PURPOSE which He has cherished in His own mind of RESTORING THE WHOLE CREATION to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.” – Weymouth
The scriptures which illustrate God’s plan to rescue the unbelieving world of mankind in his kingdom are found in the Bible, page after page, from Genesis to Revelation. As we are told in Acts 3:21, ” … the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” NKJV
1 Tim 2:3-6 “3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time,” NKJV
May Jehovah bless you all and may 2015 be a year of spiritual growth and happiness in the Lord.
Some have asked why their comments don’t appear right away like before.
As Br. Peter noted in the article we are manuelly approving each comment. We do not read the comment to determine approval however, we just click to approve not knowing the content so we are surprised at the same time you are when we view it.
The reason for this is some of the witness apologists comments are long and drawn out and present harsh incidences of so called “Judicial meetings” that are posted to scare.
Others are just taking jabs and being a little condescending. It has nothing to do with our commenters on here.
An apologist feel the need to refute anything said against or explain their religious point of view. Witnesses have a website that they are wearing buttons for even in the kingdom hall the buttons are sticking on their clothing. So they have an outlet to defend their religion and persons know to go there to see what or whether they teach a certain doctrine.
They want to control the information flow of the entire internet. If we let all 3 million of them they would overrun us. Other sites and facebook pages plus some news outlets close the comments down also because they will get all their time in on people that have left instead of persons looking for their brand of teaching and strict organizational control of their lives. Thank you, Jacqueline
Also notice the new feature to click on “newest comments” so you get an overview of order of comments.
It looks like there has been quite of bit of activity since yesterday. Hopefully I didn’t miss any as I read through them earlier this morning. I don’t want to reiterate things, get things wrong, or step on anyone’s toes. In fact mine my sound like a mish mash but bear with me for anyone who reads it. I have only 10 % of my battery life left so I have to hurry… lol By the way, hello to all.
Before I add my thoughts about what’s been written, I want to preface it by saying that I want to live my life in harmony with how I believe I’m supposed to be living it according to Jesus’s teachings and Jehovah’s will. I want that for myself and for all of mankind now, and later when we’re living under his Kingdom Rule if it is where we are supposed to be.
As I understand it, you, (the bible student group) are saying that the thousand years of Christ’s rulership along with the 144,000 is going to be the time when all will come into an accurate knowledge of Jehovah. It is at that time, after at least 100 years, that each individual will be judged according to whether they choose to serve Jehovah or not.
My original thought was, if all will enter into this millennium despite the things that we do, it would seem to suggest that what we do today, whether we choose to follow Jesus or not, doesn’t really matter in the long run. We could live life as we please right now because the door will be open for us to have the opportunity to receive everlasting life later.
You, ( the bible student group) say yes, it does matter because some are being called to a higher calling right now! It’s the same calling the apostles had. That calling is a heavenly calling and the race to the finish is on, so to speak, even though only some will get that prize. The rest I assume will stay behind here on the earth… ?!?
Also, you say that all the rest of mankind, (the ones who were not running the race) will enter into the 1000 year reign despite how they lived their lives. Those ones who chose to live, love, and laugh, freely living life as they saw fit, those who committed all kinds of gross and immoral sins according to the word of God, or even those who were perfectly happy to follow Jesus with an earthly hope in mind. All those will enter but their reward, (whatever that may be) will be according to what they’ve done. So as someone here wrote, there will be a consequence and discipline but not the second death into Gehenna at this time. It is not until afterwards that they will be judged accordingly.
If the above is true, and you are correctly interpreting the scriptures accurately, then what I also take away from this understanding is this; in essence what you are saying, too, is that the scriptures, at this time, are only addressing those with the higher calling. It is sort of how Jehovah dealt with his people of old. (The Israelites) His attention was on them and only them. The rest of the people, (other nations) didn’t matter, so to speak, in regards to his commandments, because his laws were meant only for his chosen people. Is that how it is today? The attention is on those with a higher calling? The ones who will be reigning with Christ Jesus only? I’m not suggesting that Jehovah doesn’t care about the rest of mankind, or that he would not hold anyone accountable because of their own actions, (back then or now) if that’s what he wanted to do. I’m merely saying that if his attention was turned on his people back then, and at this time his focus are on those who will be reigning with his son Jesus, then likewise today the warnings in the scriptures would appear to be for those who are running the race and are not intended for all. Does that sound correct?
As I said in the onset of this post I want to follow Jesus in the way he has taught us to do even though everyday life makes it difficult to follow him sometimes. I want to make Jehovah’s heart rejoice today and not be on the side of satan. I want to understand the scriptures and what they hold for us in the future. I’m not trying to distort anyone’s thoughts, or come up with an understanding of the scripture to benefit me. I’m only trying to understand why I don’t see things in the same way that you do when you say that all will be there during Christ’s rulership, regardless of what we do and live our lives today.
Yes, it is by undeserved kindness that we have been given this free gift and the opportunity for everlasting life, but the scriptures come with instructions and also warnings. If in fact if they are written for all and not just those with the higher calling, then shouldn’t we all be heeding them? Could it be that it is more than just a different kind of reward or discipline according to how we lived? I worry that teaching the belief that all will enter into the millennium may not be according the scriptures as a whole. That if someone believes it and accepts it as truth, that their lives could be at stake. Not just theirs but maybe even more so the ones teaching it. I know that you are saying that everyone should be guided by the principals set forth in the bible, but how many do you think will fall into sin just by hearing that all will absolutely be saved and be able to live under God’s ruler ship with Christ Jesus as king, no matter what they do? I don’t know what it is but it just doesn’t seem true to me.
Jacqueline,
Thank you for understanding that I am not as familiar with the differences. I appreciate that you take the time to point out things. I do want you to know though, that I do believe that the ransom sacrifice of our Lord Jesus is a free gift. I know the love Jehovah and Jesus has for mankind as a whole. I understand that death is the punishment we pay for our sins. There is one thing that surprised me though. You said something about redeemed in Adam. What did you mean? Also, I think it was Peter (but I’m not 100% sure) who addressed Adam as father. Maybe I’m not understanding something but while I was reading that I tripped over those words. I know he is the first parent of the human race, but it seemed wrong to me to address him this way. Perhaps it was my upbringing or things that I’ve learned since studying the bible. Was he not already judged by Jehovah for his betrayal and own choice? Or do the bible student group believe that he too will be resurrected? If so, could you explain that to me?
I wrote a lot I know but hopefully no one will mind. 🙂 Thank you!
Hi QNA!
Nice to hear from you again. You put forth a lot of good questions. If I may address just one it would be this. The Jehovahs Witnesses believe the “great company” is earthly, the Bible Students believe it is heavenly. As a Bible Student I could never understand why a JW with ALL the truth that they have would not even consider a heavenly calling.
So…
The gift = Life on earth for all of resurrected mankind with a judgement period to “weed out” the bad.
The better gift = Becoming a member of the great company in heaven for those who have “earned” it in this world.
The greatest gift = To become a member of the Bride class (Kings and Priests), the 144,000, by putting on Christ.
In Christ,
Chuck
Hi Chuck!
I’ve never heard of the better gift. Could you please elaborate on that calling?
Take your time. I’ll be back on tomorrow. Thanks.
QNA,
Some thoughts…
Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their [a]release, so that they might obtain a BETTER RESURRECTION; (emphasis mine)
and
Hebrews 11:40 because God had provided SOMETHING BETTER FOR US, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
The first verse states all will get a resurrection but those that don’t give in to the worldly ways and follow Christ will get a “better resurrection”.
This last verse is referencing that those that get the “better resurrection” will be necessary to help make the rest of mankind “perfect” in the Kingdom. Kind of like teachers.
This is what makes sense to me from the Scriptures.
In Christ,
Br. Chuck
QNA,
I am not a word person but I will try to explain my understanding.
The gift is to ALL mankind. The resurrection to an earthly life, with a “trial period”. JW’s don’t agree with this. (to my understanding)
The “better gift” is what the JW’s would call the “gift”. Those that are “true Christians”. They are part of the Great Company in heaven. JW’s believe this to be earthly. (again, to my understanding)
The “greatest gift” is to those Spirit Begotten that have ran the race and succeeded unto death. To become members of the Bride class and rule WITH Christ as Kings and Priests.
Any comments?
In Christ,
Br. Chuck
Hi Chuck,
I read both of your responses and the scripture you cited. I have studied with the Witnsess now for 2 years. What I know, (if I understand it correctly) is this… the 144,000 are the ones who have been brought from the earth to be kings and priests with Jesus. That number may or may not be yet sealed, but in order to be one of those chosen by Jehovah and Jesus, you have to be living a life that is acceptable to them. In other words, you have to be following Jesus in the way the apostles did. They are the little flock that is spoken of by Jesus. His other sheep is part of the great crowd and they are the ones who also follow Jesus but are not part of the ones who will reign with him as part of the 144,000. I think that those are the ones who come out of the tribulation alive. Their reward is everlasting life here on earth, along with all those who will be resurrected, but this reward is only after the 1000 years are over because they all have to be brought to perfection and pass the final test.
That’s how I understand it but if there is a JW out there who can either verify or correct what I said, that would be good. As for that other reward you speak of, the better reward? The one where you quoted Hebrews 11:35&40… I’m not familiar with there being a possible third kind of reward.
This is my understanding as of today. However, since coming to this site I have been paying closer attention to the things I am learning. Right now I am almost at the end of my first study book. I recently asked to go over what questions I have, using the bible only, before starting the second book. That should be in about a month and I expect to get a better understanding Of what the scriptures are saying at that time. The lady I study with is a very nice and patient person. She is aware that I am reading material from the BS site.
Thank you for trying to explain your beliefs to me though. I do appreciate it regardless of whether or not I am in agreement with it.
Take care.
Hi QNA, the reason I say Adam is because if I say everyone that has ever lived I get the question, “You mean the nephillim? No Christ redeemed Adam, thus all of his prodigy not the children whose father were fallen angels.
I believe sin is sin. A good, righteous person sins and go to the grave because that is the wages sin pays. And sin is inherited and you can’t not sin. I believe the murderer is a sinner and would still sin because of inheritance. The bible does not break sin down and say Jesus died for only those who committed certain sins. A liar can break up a whole community and so can an adulterer a wholw lineage of family. They both are sinners and can ask for forgiveness. The samaritan woman at the well, Jesus didn’t condemn her he stated a fact for he has seen far worse. he redeemed her.
Today men are going on like they want like they did 2000-4,000 years ago and will until the timetable of God says it’s over.
I am sure the person’s 1,000 years ago felt their neighbors were being judged for practicing sin.
But yet we know those persons will be resurrected. Rev.20:11-14 says the great and the small was judged. Today many feel they are “less” a sinner than another because they don’t commit jailable offenses yet their next door catches it from their manner of dealing with them. To lose your temper and say things in haste is sin and hurts like a person that has had a thief break in. Sin is sin.
Are you aware the witnesses changed their teaching to indicate he is addressing Christians in the bible (non christians don’t read it)? But witnesses balked against it and the governingbody backed off. Not just now but men have done as they pleased down thru the ages and yes whether some want it or not they are covered by the event at Golgotha on the cross. They will finally have a chance to prove if being perfect they will honor and obeyor not and die, now we all sin even if we lock ourselves in a closet and get fed thru a hole until we die. We die a sinner and sinners are covered. I know people that are prostitutes but they are nice when you got to know them in sessions than the elders I saw every day. If given a choice of who I had to associate with I would choose the prostitute in a heartbeat. But me, the elders and the prostitute are all sinners covered by Christ.
You don’t have to accept this it is what I believe and I don’t fear if it is wrong that God will kill me. He is a good God and I trust since he didn’t put things in black and white that we will learn in the 1000 years. Hope I wasn’t to long. (LOL Girls are wordy)
Hi Jacqueline,
Thanks you. Yes, sin is sin in Jehovah’s eyes no matter what the sin is. And yes Jesus died for any and all of mankind sins. I might have said that wrong but I do believe that. Yet, I still don’t see all making it to the millennium unless what is also being said is that before that time comes, all would have been redeemed because all would have died by then… !?!?
As for Adam being redeemed by Jesus. That’s something surprising to me. Adam was perfect and had a direct relationship with Jehovah and yet he still chose to disobey him directly. Hmm….
I am not familiar with the GB teaching that at one time. They have people who are now JW’s that were non Christians at one time. In my own congregation that I attend, there is an ex jewish family. I would think that the bible is for everyone to read unless they were saying that it is not for non Christians who do not accept Jesus? I really don’t know. I’ve never heard that.
It reminds me though about something you mentioned in one of your postings. You said they (JW) work at going door to door. I guess it could be called work, but wasn’t that what Jesus wanted them to do? What does the scripture about preaching the good news and then the end will come, (I shortened it) mean to the bible student group?
Yes, girls are wordy. At least I am. Here I am sitting with a barely charged tablet trying to be short and failing at it. But I do have to work early so this will be it for tonight.
Have a good night. Thanks!
QNA, I probably should have said he ransomed Adam like Adam got us in this. He had us inside him so no need to keep ransoming every time a new child is born, ransom the one who got himself and all of us under the bondage. Rom. 5:12-19 explains it was a man for a man and all benefited.
I am just going to post scriptures instead of talking to see if it says it all. These are from a posted article but I pulled out the pertinent ones to group together to tell the story in some type of order, hope this helps. Many don’t catch changes made then recinded by the society I and some more are cursed to catch these little changes because i would never miss a meeting and put to memory new things said, a curse to remember so much. LOL
John 3:17 – God sent his Son to save, not condemn, the world.
Even the Wicked get an Opportunity to Repent in the Kingdom
Matt 11:20-24 – it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you… if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day
Luke 11:32 – The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. NKJV
Ezek 16:55, 61,62 – Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state NKJV
Isa 60:14 –all those who despised you will bow themselves at the souls of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD. The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. – NASV
Rev 3:9 – I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan…to come and bow down at your feet”
2 Peter 3:9 – “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV
1 Tim 2:4 – God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
John 3:17 – God sent his Son to save, not condemn, the world.
(see also Isa 14:24; Isa 45:22-23; Jonah 3:10)
God will Bless ALL People
Gen.22:18 – “In your seed ALL the nations of the earth shall be blessed ” NKJV
Luke 2:10 – “the angel said…I bring you good tidings of great joy… to ALL people.” NKJV
Heb 2:9 – “But we see Jesus … that He … might taste death for EVERYONE.” NKJV
John 12:32 – “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself.” NKJV
John 1:29 – “John …said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! NKJV
John 6:51 – “the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” NKJV
Isa 40:5 – “The glory of the LORD shall be revealed, And ALL flesh shall see it together ” NKJV
Hag 2:7 – “And I will shake all nations, and the desire of ALL nations shall come” KJV
Redemption of Mankind still Future
1 Tim 2:6 – “who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time,” NKJV
Zeph 3:8-9 –I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they ALL may call on the the LORD,
ALL People will Worship & Serve God
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
Mankind Judged by Their Future Behavior in God’s Kingdom
Rev 20:12 – “the dead were judged according to their works, by the things written in the books.”
[Compare – Matt 8:21-22 – “let the dead bury their own dead.” NKJV]
John 12:47-48 – “I did not come to judge the world but to save the world… the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” NKJV
Matt 12:32 – whoever speaks against Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come.
Hi Jacqueline,
You gave a lot of scriptures… lol Unfortunately I am at the end of my lunch hour so I will have to try and come back later to read it. I used what time I had to write to Peter. I’ll have to get back to Chuck later as well. If I don’t get too busy!
Have a great day.
I felt let you see the scriptures we base our beliefs on and with Br. Peter adding an explanation you could make a decision on your own. We don’t try to persuade a person and we are firmly persuaded ourselves that this is to us what the Bible teaches. I have faith that this will not determine our everlasting death or life as Jesus has already solved that problem at Golgotha. Now with the threat of death not hanging over our head we seek to get as accurate an understanding of what his will is. You do not have to accept this belief to commune with us as we are all digging into scripture. Take Care QNA
I too have faith that what we believe regarding Adam will not determine how we are judged at the end. In fact I am sure that no one will get it all 100% correct nor are we made to understand everything. I do believe that certain things in the scriptures are there for our understanding today though. That is what may or may not determine life or death as I see it, but of course life is the opportunity that Jesus gave all of us when he gave up his own life as a ransom. It is up to us individually to surrender ourselves by accepting that gift and living our lives according to how Jehovah wants us to. That is what I am trying to do. To gain the knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus and live by it because that’s what means everlasting life.
I don’t take what you or anyone writes as someone trying to persuade me. I also am not trying to persuade anyone either. I only say how I understand the scriptures. I keep an open mind though because by listening to a different point of view, I may learn something that I didn’t see before.
You take care also. : )
Thanks again. Take care!
QNA, I don’t have the new new world translation but I think they changed the wording of John 17:3 didn’t they? I am in the home of witnesses and hate to ask for the Bible so as not to start anything but will go maybe to the Jw site. I only remember hearing about it since you mentioned. Have you heard anything at the KH about a new understanding of this, since it is a major scripture used.
Also on paper emotions can’t be seen. I didn’t mean anything negative when I mention us not trying to convince but rather let others convince themselves.
I know I posted this site a number of times today on a few facebook pages and want them to understand we aren’t pushing just stating as you say what we see. And letting them know they also might not agree. Many don’t want to come to a site and see a forcing of doctrine like at the kingdom hall so I hope I didn’t offend you. I often word things with friends in a manner that benefits many. I view you as a friend and contributor on this site and many follow your posts. We know what they click on.
John 17:3American Standard Version (ASV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
Found it on jw.org
3 This means everlasting life,+ their coming to know you,* the only true God,+ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
It used to say taking in knowledge of you the only true God and the one you sent forth Jesus Christ.
Have you heard anything about what this new more accurate wording suggest? Just asking.
Hi Jacqueline,
Sometimes in the responses you give your words can cut and appear to come from someone who deeply despises the JW organization or ones who agree with them. However, because I have personally spoken with you, and also because you’ve made mention of why you write things in the way that you do, I am not offended. In fact if I were to be offended it would be because all my postings has to be approved before being allowed onto your site… lol It’s okay though, I think that overall the administrators of this site are pretty fair in allowing all points of view, which I always thought you were a part of. 🙂 That reminds me though, I do have a question for Peter.
Peter,
I want to keep my question simple but I have been curious to know ever since it was asked of you before. How do you deal with people who might not agree with an important view of the bible, but yet are bible students? What if I were a member of the bible group and then suddenly felt that something I learned from the religion I had came from was the real truth and kept conveying that thought at your church, to anyone who would listen?
Back to you Jacqueline… As to your question about the changes the society made to John 17:3. First let me say they made more than this one change. They made several. They said that it was to make it simpler for people to read in our everyday language. Today, certain terms that everyday people use were taken differently back then. (I hear that especially with how the younger generation communicate today…. lol) My understanding of the change in John 17:3 was to make the bible writer’s intent more clearer in the language we are accustomed to. Having knowledge of someone doesn’t always mean they really know them as a person. By writing coming to know them makes it more about actually getting to understand and know who Jehovah and Jesus personally. I thought it sounded reasonable, does it to you?
Running late for work. Take care.
Q NA please see the comment made by me at 10 am please. It explains why all posts are being approved now, but we don’t read content before doing. See new red ” newer comments” to find quickly. Others have written us about this and Br. Peter announced this temporary change in the New Year post.
You are right and I need to work on my feelings. Somestimes I drop back into that dark place when I learned the society and 2 circuit overseers that stayed in my house knew my little nieces were being raped. One told him at 8yrs and told again at 14yrs. The society didn’t tell family but DF’D the man and he was back in 6months as an elder in less than a year. No one ever would have thought this was a rapist of these strikingly mixed heritage beautiful little darlings.
This man confessed to me about what he had been doing to them for 15years. (I was at a convention) I was on phone hook up with a special committee and got this person to tell us how he got away with this for so long. Long story short 20 or so elders and pioneers were engaged in I can’t say in polite company and they covered for each other. If I mentioned the city and years elders on here could vouch for it.
A sibling and I was discussing last night how their set up led to the premature death of our Mom we alledge. If i told you how I have heard the detail of rapes done by elders and ones in position at the kingdom hall and vomited while the elders had heard it and said nothing along with the society. Please go to http://www.silentlambs.com. Anna made mention of my hanging out with them in her comments.
I have been in court with these people and won but they came at me with lies and letters but an elder broke down and told the judge the truth. Later another one of the elders that was there told a committee I had pedophile records and they wanted to DF me so I would have no credibility. The head elder told me sold his house and moved away so he and his wife could stop coming.
Yes, I go to that deep hole QNA, you notice it and I hate to be this way and then I get another call or email at night and hear another story and it renew within the fact that the Truth Must Be Told if it saves one person from going into this destructive sect. Look up Barbara Anderson and put my name in her place on some of the pedophile cases she had filed away for the society as the secretary. I just spoke with her yesterday and we visited a couple of months ago when the 13.5million lawsuit was won.
I wish I could just walk away and never hear or speak that name of that organization again. But I have children, grandchildren and many relatives still captive. Most understand my disdain for them (org not relatives) as they know more than I am telling you here.
But I will try to tone it down a bit but I can’t promise you at this time. I think I hear to much. Someone is on the phone now telling me about their pain.
They brag about such happy families but many are not aware of the connections with some of these well publicized happens.
The Belief that if you die before armageddon causes some to commit suicide but take the whole family with them so they know they will all get a resurrection.
http://watchtowernews.org/familymurders.htm
This young couple was known by many in the south: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540809/Jehovahs-Witness-couple-young-children-shot-dead-two-story-home-grandmother-grim-murder-suicide.html
QNA – Bible Students have free and open discussions during our meetings and we encourage that scriptures be honestly and humbly presented and explained to establish what the Bible teaches. Anyone is welcome to disagree and present a different point of view than the group. However, if someone is pushing a point of view off topic or dominating time in the study, that will be discouraged. In a Bible study, it is not fair for one person with a contrary point of view to dominate the discussion every week and speak more than everyone else. The idea is for the elder to encourage all the brethren who have studied and prepared for the lesson to comment and share their perspectives. If the same thought is expressed from three or four different angles, we can get a more complete picture of the topic. If someone has a view contrary to the opinion of the majority, we can consider the evidence.
if someone is riding a hobby horse (pushing a particular point of view repetitively), Brother Russell recommends in Volume 6, “The New Creation” that a time be set aside to allow the brother to give a presentation of his view with the scriptural evidence. After the presentation is made, if the group is not convinced, the brother should let the issue go for at least a year. If he wants another opportunity to make another presentation, the group can vote as to whether they want to hear more. The idea is that no one should be allowed to continually disrupt the meeting pushing their point of view, derailing the discussion and moving it in a different direction then planned. This is fine once in a while, but once it becomes habit, it becomes a problem.
Jacqueline, when I came on earlier I went directly to the comment I wanted to respond to without reading anything new so I apologize for missing your 10:00 posting, but now I know. I did notice the latest comments digest. That was a very good idea.
I don’t know where to begin so I’ll speak from the heart. Let me say that reading that very personal account of what happened was very difficult. It caused a mixture of emotions in me. It made me feel sick, angry, upset, and just heartbroken at the thought of a trusting little 8 year girl being hurt in that way. I can’t even imagine what I would have done if it happened to any child I loved. It probably would be outright difficult to stop myself from taking these gross disgusting individuals, and literally inflicting the same kind of pain and humiliation on them that they inflicted on that child. Is it wrong to think that way? Or to think that if it happen to a child in my family that I may never be able to allow forgiveness to enter into my heart? What kind of congregation was this? Please forgive me because I know you still have family members who are practicing witnesses, but I’m confused. I realize that a whole congregation cannot be held accountable for what individuals do, but something is wrong here. Why weren’t they found guilty and put in prison?! Were these girls the only victims? How can one be reinstated as an elder 6 months later? Is this the one who confessed? Or one who supposedly knew about what was going on? Sorry, but I’m just throughly sickened by what you have said here. How can one congregation get away with so many people being a part of it and no one else seeing or hearing anything? These people are not lovers of Jehovah or Jesus. Not even close. Again, please forgive me as I am not trying to judge what I do not know about first hand, but personally I don’t care who you are or where you come from, if 20+ elders, co’s, and whoever else you mentioned had any kind of involvement in allowing something this disgusting to occur, there has to be something seriously wrong in this congregation of non witnesses. I called them that because no true Christian who has the right heart condition, or loves righteousness, could ever do such a thing. Not even the ones who knew, but didn’t speak up in defense of these innocent girls, are to be found guiltless. I’m sorry. I know this is very personal and if I could have responded to what you said in a non public form, I would have. Crime against children hurts me that much. I don’t even like thinking of it. I can’t tell you how sad I feel that this happened. I realize the news is full of cases such as this, from all walks of life but it doesn’t ever make it any easier to hear about it. Cowards and pedophiles prey on innocent children and that has to stop. Lorraine Bobbit comes to mind. I know that’s wrong, but I can’t help it. I used to feel bad putting a little fear into my own children but teaching them from the time they could understand about the dangers is something I always felt was important; and yet I would never leave them because I wanted to protect them myself from this cruel world. I can only pray that your nieces are doing well. Take care, and while we may not agree on everything, we can agree that protecting the children is a must!!!!
QNA, I thought you knew that dealing with pedolhile victims is what I do and how I got to know the organization behind the scene so well.
I seldom speak of regular people in the kingdom hall as most are just trying to make it. My dealings are with elder on up.
This case was a big scandal the person would tell on the other me and the sisters all pioneers and elders if they responded. One elder and his wife followered this man all over the religion to congregations as he touch a child and other children. Most elders heard about this in their meetings when the Co came around. The society knew of the many cases of pedophilia as he was df t times and came back in under amnesty one time as elders said they would never let him back.even now we track him, he is in another stAte And cong. and drives a school bus. Saw him on facebook with witnesses and little girls just last month. He is studying with the Mormons he said in one comment. He is drop in the bucket. The 20 elders were df. Also Australia had allegedly a. pedolhile ring among the elders. Parts of it played out on this site. The ring has been dealt with by Au. authorities.i was not df i just gave up and walked away. I have seen tel much of the actual policies of this org and governingbody. I never dealt with rank and file.
Barbara has dealt with hers differentlalmost of this can be found by visiting zitez like jwfacts, jwstruggles and other sites or just google it. Take care.
PS…. At least I can say that this time my comment was short.
QNA – You said, “As for Adam being redeemed by Jesus. That’s something surprising to me.” Let me explain it this way.
The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live.
Under Moses’ Law, justice demanded “a life for a life.” This was God’s perfect law. If a man killed someone, he must pay with his own life: a life for a life. (Exodus 21:23-25; Deuteronomy 19:21). Jehovah solved the problem by satisfying justice with the Ransom price of Jesus perfect human life paid for Adam’s lost perfect human life.
The Apostle Paul uses the Greek word anti-lutron, signifying, “a corresponding price,” saying, “The man, Christ Jesus, gave himself a ransom [anti-lutron—corresponding price] for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:6. The Greek word lutroo is rendered “redeemed.” Prof. Young defines lutroo to signify “to loose by a price”—that is, to set free by the payment of a price. The basis or root of this word is lutron, which, as noted above with anti, used either as a prefix or a suffix, signifies a corresponding price.
Put in simple terms, Ransom means that something was lost and that you have to pay something of equal value to get it back.
Salvation comes by substitutionary atonement. One man, Jesus Christ, died for one man, Adam, so that Adam and all his posterity might live. The Apostle Paul outlines this concept of substitutionary atonement in two passages:
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Corinthians 15:21, 22
“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Rom. 5:15
Since the first man, Adam, was a perfect human being, it follows that Jesus, as a corresponding price, must also be a perfect human being and that the resultant life for Adam’s posterity must be perfect human life.
As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his life, so Jesus, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s life, and in consequence for all Adam’s posterity—every human soul—sharers in his fall and in his loss. With Adam redeemed, all his posterity are entitled to a resurrection from the dead to human perfection and a trial for life under the favorable conditions of Paradise Earth.
Hi Peter,
I hear all that you are saying in regards to Adam and the ransom of Jesus Christ. I also understand a life for a life, and in this case, a perfect life for a perfect life, but I will still have to meditate on what your thinking is on this.
Just so you also understand my thinking on it, let me quickly explain. How I see it, and maybe this is partly what I have learned through JW’s, but also partly due to my own common sense, (or maybe lack there of) understanding on the way a ransom is paid. Yes, it is true that Jesus paid the price for what Adam took from all when he, (Adam) chose to deliberately disobey Jehovah. The gift of this ransom gives each one of us the opportunity to now regain what Adam has lost by accepting Jesus. However, when a ransom is paid, it’s typically to save those who were effected or damaged by the perpetrator. The payment of a ransom isn’t to save the one who caused the damage. Adam was perfect and knew Jehovah and the directive he gave him, personally, but still chose, on his own, to throw it all away.
Like I said though, I will meditate on what you said.
Thank you.
QNA – In regards to your illustration, I suppose one could argue that Satan was the criminal and Adam the victim. However, the scriptures are not really using that illustration as I understand it. The illustration is that Adam disobeyed and was the one who needed to be redeemed. Let’s look at the definition of RANSOM (Anti-Lutron)
Adam Clarke’s Commentary: Verse 6. Who gave himself a ransom The word lutron signifies a ransom paid for the redemption of a captive; and antilutron, the word used here, and applied to the death of Christ, signifies that ransom which consists in the exchange of one person for another, or the redemption of life by life…
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary: The Greek implies not merely ransom, but a substituted or equivalent ransom: the Greek preposition, “anti,” implying reciprocity and vicarious substitution.
John Wesley Notes on the Bible: Verse 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all—Such a ransom, the word signifies, wherein a like or equal is given; as an eye for an eye, or life for life: and this ransom,
Parkhurst’s A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (p. 47): a ransom, price of redemption, or rather a correspondent ransom. ‘It properly signifies a price by which captives are redeemed from the enemy; and that kind of exchange in which the life of one is redeemed by the life of another.’ So Aristotle uses the verb antilytroo for redeeming life by life.”
Romans 5:12, 18 (NASV) “12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
So QNA, by definition of the word RANSOM, it is an exact and equal exchange – one life perfect life (Jesus) for one perfect life (Adam) – NOT one life for many lives.
Until Jesus came, no human man could provide that Ransom price, because they were all sinners. No one was the perfect human equivalent of Adam.
Psalms 49:7 (NASV) “No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him”
Romans 3:10 (NKJV) “There is none righteous, no, not one”
Job spoke prophetically of Jesus Ransoming mankind and resulting in their restoration back to life and youth.
Job 33:23-25 (NASV) 23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him,
24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’;
25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor”
QNA – Thanks. Let me just offer some clarification on top of what Jaqueline and Chuck have said.
Whether a person is Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Christian or whatever, evil behavior now matters. Bad character/behavior now, results in natural consequences in this present life and then future discipline in the kingdom for whatever additional lessons need to be learned that were not learned from the natural consequences in the present life.
Romans 1 (NASV) “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions… committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper”
When it says, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passion” and “God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,” this is how wicked people experience God’s wrath now. By being turned over to their ungodly lifestyle, they suffer horrible consequences in this life without Jehovah’s help. However, for those who escape this wrath and have not fully learned the lesson, additional discipline waits for them in the kingdom. This is all for the loving purpose of reforming them and bringing them to righteousness and submission to Jehovah.
Jehovah’s attention has been primarily, but not exclusively, on whatever group of people he has been dealing with:
Age of Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph
Jewish Age: Israel and particularly the faithful ones of Hebrews 11 (prophets, judges, etc)
Gospel Age: The New Creation, also called the Little Flock, Christians baptized into Christ’s Body (Romans 6) and begotten with the Holy Spirit.
Jehovah has worked with each group to accomplish a very specific purpose respectively. More on that if you have questions
Although the scriptures are primarily to direct God’s people, all others are encouraged to benefit from it. Learning from the Bible will aid in developing their understanding of God’s character and plan, as well as guide them in developing a Christlike character themselves to whatever degree is possible for those not spirit begotten. This gives them great advantage in quickly adapting to and thriving in the earthly kingdom once established.
Peter
After wrestling on what has been said, or in reality what did not get said, has troubled me.I obviously read into Bettstones comment, and also Dundee on what was said to Daz.
You dont want to hear what i have to say,remember, i am after all one of those men you put in a room with others, but none are in agreement with each other, another fake.
No hard feeling whatsoever Peter, just talking straight.
Peace Be With You
Peter
You asked me a question, before i gave the above answer to you, what happened to it?
Victor – I trashed my comment after I read Jaqueline’s comments and felt she had said it better than I could. I figured you would not have read the comment yet. I was wrong.
Since you asked, here is what I said:
“Victor – What was said that makes you feel Daz is being condemned? Can you explain your view on the Ransom, that you agree with Daz on, in your own words?”
I understand now that the words taken as condemnation were comments by Brettstone.
Thanks for honestly expressing your feelings.
Peter
I imagined this also
Peter: Why has your question to Victor that provoked his latest reply to you been removed? Why? It has now made it look like Victor has addressed you of his own initiative when infact he did not as he was reply to the questions you posed!
Thankyou Peter for reposting your questions to Victor.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Victor,
Hi, my comment to Daz was just expressing my thoughts on why to live life wisely now making it easier when it really matters in the future judgement day.Nothing directed against Daz.I like Daz.I enjoy reading his responses. Getting insight on his thoughts. Nothing of judgement from me. I appreciate the interchange of scriptures. Digging deep & searching for hid treasure among God’s Word. Bouncing things off each other. Uncovering precious gems of Bible Truth.
Victor
I’m sorry if something I said provoked hard feelings… I never judge, but I appreciate and respect others feelings on scripture…
“Slow about speaking slow about wrath”
Hi all
I have been following the discussion with Daz and others on the Ransom for All
For my sake and the others who read this site but don’t comment
Could you make it clear here what is going on
Daz does not believe the Ransom for all teaching that you stand by, and yet it seems as if he is being judged, and even condemned by going against the Spirit by his non acceptance.
Could someone answer in a simple way that i can understand
Many thanks
Peace
Thankyou Victor for addressing this, I do not condemn anyone, I am just trying to understand, we have ALL had to understand things & then make a decision whether you accept what you have learned, I should not be made to feel I have been condemned for this as we all have had to do this at some stage, have we not?
Regarding the ‘Ransom For All’ Paul affirms it as a great important truth that Christ freely gave himself as a ransom for all mankind, for Jews and Gentiles, for all classes, all nations of people. The Jews had believed that salvation was exclusively for themselves, their nation, and denied that it could possibly be extended to others outside of their nation, unless they became Jews. Gentiles were classed as an ungodly people were they not? According to the Jews, salvation was not provided for or offered to pagans as such unless on the condition that they also became Jews themselves.
Matthew 20:28, “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Romans 3:25, “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past.”
1Timothy 2:6,” who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.”
Romans 5:6, “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.”
Please don’t shoot me down here, I am just presenting my findngs & present understanding.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz
Hi, and thankyou
You have a Christ like attitude, in your conduct, with this i do feel drawn to you, that is why i initially contacted you via E-mail.
I follow all comments you post here with keenness. Your explanation comes over, as easy to understand, common sense, and you use only the scriptures, as reference.
The scriptures you have presented, on the interpretation on the Ransom For All and the meaning you have put across,I have to accept as Truth also.
As a witness, i had no voice, and shortly i think you will have no voice.
Endurance and Faith, Brother
Victor I also like Daz scriptures. He has no reason to stop commenting. He is tougher than that.
You notice I never come out with a barage of scriptures, I let you guys present. Do you realize I am bowing to a whole other religion that at times will comment but believe WOMEN SHOULD BE SEEN NOT HEARD. I don’t want to offend them and there are some brothers that will take offense if I do what I normally do on other sites wield the sword like a warrior. One of my stories reflect that.
But it doesn’t bother me as there are different personalities on this site tha is why it works and another famous site has adopted our format although they have existed a long time.
Not only do we have many watchers on this site but Jehovah is watching and he is picking personalities to stand and not be afraid to help bring the many to righteousness.
Daz will always have a voice on this site along with me you and all the others. We have no motive or reason to stop anyone from expressing themselves and letting others comment on the thread. Thanks Victor we need you to encourage Daz. Daz is from the ARTS, I traveled with persons with musical talent as a psychotherapist, they are deep thinkers and gentle in a way. We all have gifts.
“[…] ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence” (1 Peter 3:15, NASB).
PS: Br Peter has a part on the service this morning, looking at him in Chicago, so we can go for it.LOL
Hi Victor, thankyou very much for your reply my friend, your words are very kind indeed.
I am glad that you take not of the scriptures I present & that you are able to make sense of what I offer.
As I have previously stated, I do not profess to be a teacher or some kind of prophet, I am just a mere man with such deep love for Jehovah God, Christ Jesus for Truth. I always encourage people to look up the scriptures themselves & make sure of ALL things as I am sure you do aswell.
My voice was also not heard when I was in association with the JW organization so I know how you must have felt & I am sure others can relate too.
I trust in God Almighty & His Son whole heartedly, what will, will be.
Thankyou once again for showing me such kindness my friend!
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Victor hello, no Daz is not being condemned. Everyone is talking, Daz opened the thread so we reply to him. However others are giving their thoughts with no intent to down Daz. Websites have to have constant chatter that is what blogging is about. We are respectful to each other but present our views.
I understand Daz point of view. I explained what I was saying after it was brought to my attention in a text by another Br.
Daz is one of us, trying to get out mentally and emotionally and think. His thinking causes us to think.
When we answer him it is answering sometimes another person’s question from a text or from the back of the site.
I hope Daz and no one else feels picked on. We have formed a bond here and others want to know about the Ransom for All and this was an excellent opportunity to get all sides. I didn’t know anyone was feeling picked on and I for one am sorry for that.
We play together because we know we have an audience who wants us to answer Daz questions that were thought provoking and kept up on our toes and made us go to the bible and take a closer look. Thanks for allowing us to explain.
Now Victor tell us what you think about salvation, will all benefit from the ransom? (Have opportunity to make free decision)
Hi Jacqueline, I hope you are well. Just to clarify, I didn’t open the thread, I made a reply to a post by Brett on this thread, & if you read his reply to me you will understand what Victor is saying, yes Brett’s reply does read as ‘condemning’.
I appreciate you kind reply & wish all could show the same respect & courtesy as you have done here.
I feel that maybe I should not reply on here so much anymore, I certainly have no wish to mislead anyone, I am not a teacher, I am not a prophet, I am just a simple man who loves my Father in Heaven Jehovah God, & His Son, my Master Jesus Christ & I only want to do right by them. As I have said before, it is not my intention to make waves, to cause unrest or stumble anyone. I only seek ‘Truth’ & have tried to relay this in what I say.
My sincere apologies.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Oh my dear Daz, I didn’t know you felt hurt and I will let Brett speak for himself. But I got to tell you something about Bret that you or any others on here might not know.
THIS BROTHER HAS THE STRESS OF THE WORLD ON HIS SHOULDER. I couldn’t do what he is doing in the care of his parents. This is a kind young man and I am not at liberty to comment on his trials only he can do that but he is the kindest person you could meet. Cover over his reply if you can.
Please don’t feel you need to not comment as Br. Peter and I felt you were keeping the conversation going for the benefit of others. I am going to have comments made to me put on the site so you see I have to explain what I just said sometimes also. It is I get it by text or a call. You know I can say some crazy stuff and I am called out on it. LOL and I sometimes correct it and sometimes I let it stay.
We love you, keep a stiff upper lip and jump in and defend what you are saying. Let everybody else work in their bibles!
DON’T FIGHT THE SPIRIT! Speak! It is a free gift from God. Peter was a good example of people scrutinizing him but he was faithful.
If I get in a fight in the alley I want someone like people by my side as he followed Jesus that night while the others scattered. He had his back with the sword. Be a Peter speak and let everyone else think about what you said.
Starting of the thread? I am on so many blogsites I get corn-fused, sorry about that. Take Care.
BTW, I think I am talking about another Bret. Let it be Known I know 2 Brett’s on here and one goes by another name and I think I got them mixed up but I am an old lady and so you have it. LOL
Daz
I just got on the site this evening, and I apologize if what I said appeared condemning!
I certainly didn’t mean it that way and again I’m sory…
I’m not sure what reply or post it was but please do not take offense to any of my posts. It is possible i didn’t quite bring my thought across in a manner or tone appropriate. But no intentions behind it 🙂
If how we live our lives now, in this day & age, isn’t relevant why would John the baptist tell people to repent prior to Jesus’ arrival, & after John laid the way then Jesus instructed us all to repent too, if this was important back then, then it is even more important now surely?
Matthew 4:17, “From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Acts 17:30-31, “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Luke 5:32, “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
2Timothy 2:24-26, “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”
Luke 3:8-9, “Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. “Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Acts 3:19, “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”
Acts 11:18, “When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – You said, “If how we live our lives now, in this day & age, isn’t relevant why would John the baptist tell people to repent…”
I am confused as to why you are asking this questions??? We do agree with you. How we live our live now does matter. For how we live our lives now there are potential consequences and rewards in this present life as well as after awakening from the dead during the 1,000 years. Per Romans – people face God’s wrath as a natural consequence of their behavior in this life. To the degree that is not sufficient, it will be made up for in the kingdom.
Just wanted to say hello. I think we spoke on the phone a few months ago.
I live in Washington state, but I’m working in the North Dakota oilfield.
It’s been real difficult coming out of the org and what I always thought was the truth.
A lot of fear. Fear of what if I’m wrong and my family and I being destroyed
Due to my course of action.
It’s getting better. Still trying to figure out where I fit as far as gods plan
As well as my family.
Having a real hard time today. Been 2 month since my last home visit
Probably another month or so until I go back for a visit.
Really depresses. The oilfield life style is a hard one with many pit falls.
Alcohol etc…..
Anyway I’m rambling on. Just wanted to say hello.
Chris brown
Cb,
Hi. So Sori what your going thru… I can relate to those feelings. The fear, the depression,etc. I was VERY devoted 2 the org. Now feelings of betrayal. It takes time my friend. I’m trying to heal also.It takes LOTS of prayer among other things. Its important to never give up trying. Please know we r here 4 u. U are not alone…
Hi Chris, it is a very difficult process breaking away & unleashing the grip of the organization. Do not despair my friend as many others are in a similar place like & you & many have been where you are & come out the other side with a much stronger relationship with Jehovah God & Jesus Christ.
This is a time when you need to throw all your troubles, sorrows on to our Father in Heaven, I hope these scriptures will help you.
Psalm 46:1, “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.”
Psalms 55:22, “Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous be shaken.”
Psalms 147:3, “He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.”
Isaiah 41:10, “fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.”
Peter 5:5, “Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.”
Matthew 11:28, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”
John 14:1, “”Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me.”
There are many here along with myself that will offer you support, an ear to listen & a shoulder to cry on. Do not be dismayed or afraid, rely on your Father in Heaven & His Son.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz,
Beautiful scriptures! Thanks for sharing that comfort with Cb & the rest of us reading along can benefit. Oh the hurt the Empire has caused among us. Thankfully God Word is Alive & exerts power
Chris I will call you now you seem down, is that okay? Also answer back and let us know if you want some of the brothers here to have your phone number to give you a call to encourage also.
I find that blogging on this site helps more people as some are going thru the same feelings you are having.
Being away from your family can be difficult indeed. So glad we had a discussion on Salvation the last few days as here you are worrying about your family”s salvation. I hope you got a well rounded view of the love of Jehovah.
Your family has been covered by Jesus, the organization did a number on us with their craziness.
Chris they know how to raise money and have a lifestyle. Fear worked for Jim Jones and over 900 people died. He was just like the organization and people were in fear of the consequences of not following him. The bible does not teach what the governing body teaches. It is their desire to set up a kingdom now to rule before Christ, that is not in the Bible they are sinners like you and I and can’t rule over us spiritually.
Express yourself here if depression is hitting you and we will hang with you.
For now we have to approve all comments one by one so don’t think it isn’t seen. We don’t read thru it however to approve. We just have to for now block the blitzers so they don’t overrun the site. We are here for you start talking we are listening’
I just called you but you might be busy.
I am in a home where all went to the kingdom hall this morning. I am on adobe connect with Chicago ecclias. It can get tough being in a home where every visitor is a witness and judging you. My son and daughter in law are kind however so no undue stress. I am babysitting for our little one while they go to work they lost their nanny. I can talk during the day on the site or by phone during the week as it is just me and the baby.
Take Care, get on your knees and ask him to give you strength to endure and survive Chris.
Prayer is powerful and it is real a free entrance to talk to Jehovah the grand potentate of the universe thru Jesus. We are all captives on this planet earth together. We wait until he brings all things in harmony again. I wonder if the apostles knew or comprehended it would be over 2,000 years before their master’s words would start to move again?
Chris I want to apologize for not calling back and it is too late to do so now. I was cooking and serving dinner for 4 hungry grandchildren when you called and they were screaming for food. I am living with my son to babysit until they get another nanny, all are witnesses and all the visitors are witnesses.
It is difficult to talk if the house is full so I normally go to my car or talk when I am alone with the baby. Sunday was full house and couldn’t get a clear room to discuss religion as they would have dropped dead if they heard me. I will respect my son’s home but he really needs me right now and another young witness single parent. I am in a position to help and i love my son, daughter in law and grands. I will try to return the call tomorrow but I know you are working. The site is a great way as my voice isn’t heard. LOL You hang in there and just talk to us. There are a lot of people on here that will help you. We have all needed each other’s help. We have a “rag tag” group study on the phone on Wednesday. You can get some encouragement there from men that have been in your shoes. We all have problems in that group and that is what makes it so loving. Come join us you will have a pack trying to make it.
Take Care and may God bless you with your efforts to care for your family.
Thanks for the support. I work very long hrs and
Rest of time spent sleeping. Very dangerous out here
Driving on these roads.
Winter just compounds the dangers. Very stressful at times.it is hard to stay on top of bible study, but I’m making some
Slow progress.
Just know that I very much appreciate all of your kind words and suport.
Please feel free to call or email me
Chris
CB it seems hard sometimes but remember God is real and always ready to listen to his children who have an approach to him now thru Christ. Before Christ only the Tudor the law code allowed just one nation to approach. Now we can just look up or kneel before him to ask him to help you and give you strength To endure. Jesus said ask him in my name and he will do it.take care. I will pray for you.
Also say “this too shall pass” when thibgsvget tough. It worked for me when I had things hit me hard as I struggled to deal with different family members shunning me even one son that I thought loved me. So chin up you have us here.
Hi,
A lot of the scriptures that has been provided on here does seem to somewhat prove each of your points of view. Yet, isn’t it concerning that the difference between the two beliefs are on opposite sides of the fence? Either all will be saved no matter what, or what you do does matter in order to be saved.
You could add Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 to the mix and make a case that these two scriptures say, “a ransom for many” and not a ransom for all, but wouldn’t that thought be taking away from the true overall meaning of the ransom?
Jesus taught us what we needed to know because that’s what his father wanted. I think we have to be careful because as you know, all scriptures are inspired of God and the examples he gave us are for good reason. He wanted us to know how important it was, and still is to listen to his word. Also the way he dealt with his people as a whole, and how he dealt with individuals. Yes, Jehovah loves all of mankind and doesn’t want not even one to perish, there is no doubt about that. The fact that he sent his only begotten son as a ransom sacrifice demonstrates the kind of deep love he has for us. Jesus too demonstrated that same love, but along with it didn’t he also lovingly show us what we should avoid so as to not hinder our chance to inherit the Kingdom of God? His ransom sacrifice gives each and everyone of us a chance at everlasting life; but I read the scriptures as showing that what we do does matter and can make a difference. If it didn’t and we all are going to arrive at the same place during that thousand year reign, then all the warnings given to us would be for nothing. Nor would anyone, (including all religions) be accountable for stumbling anyone by their false and inaccurate teachings. Maybe I’m wrong but it’s how I see it based on what I’m able to take away from my reading the bible.
Thanks for allowing me to share my own personal thoughts.
Hi there QNA, exactly, I hope you are well, very good points made, I agree with you.
To Peter: Thankyou for your reply, is not Mark 14:27,29 referring directly to the Apostles scattering, I do not see this as being directed to all of mankind, Matthew 26:31 & John 16:32 say very similar & are speaking of this same event that will take place with regards to them, it seems obvious to me that Jesus is addressing His Apostles only at this particular time & what happens afterwards proves this to be true, also remember that part of this scattering involved Peter denying knowing Jesus three times.
To Jacqueline: Thankyou for your reply, I understand what you are saying & I did mention similar in my last post to you with regards to those not knowing Jesus for what ever reason, God would no way be unjust with regards to these ones, of course not, it is through not fault of their own & He knows that.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz and Q&A
Who survives Armegeddon?
Notice what takes place in these verses!
Zechariah 14:1-3
“Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. 2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 “Jehovah will go out and war against those nations as when he fights in the day of a battle.
These nations come against Jerrusalem and are ultimately fighting against Jehovah!
Now notice what takes place with those nations who fight against Jehovah
Zechariah 14:16 “Everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that come against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths. 17 But if anyone among the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, no rain will fall on them.
Those who waged war against Jehovah and survive will be given the opportunity to serve him!
Notice also Isaiah chapter 66
Isaiah 66:15-16 “For Jehovah will come as a fire, And his chariots are like a storm wind, To repay in furious anger, To rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, Yes, with his sword, against all flesh; And the slain of Jehovah will be many.
Notice again those who fight against Jehovah
Isaiah 66:18-19 “Since I know about their works and their thoughts, I am coming to gather people of all nations and languages, and they will come and see my glory.” 19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who escape to the nations—to Tarʹshish, Pul, and Lud, those who draw the bow, to Tuʹbal and Jaʹvan, and to the faraway islands—who have not heard a report about me or seen my glory; and they will proclaim my glory among the nations.
Those who escape will go and proclaim Jehovah’s glory
Notice also Revelation proves who received 2nd death if any before the 1,000 years or judgement day.
Armageddon-
Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon
Now notice who receives the penalty of the lake of fire or second death!
Rev 19:19-21 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Notice only the “Wild Beast” and the “False Prophet” received 2nd death and these are not individuals but “Systems”
Notice the rest are killed off by the long sword
Rev 19:21 “But the rest were killed off with the long sword”
Rev 20:10 confirms that only the “Wild Beast and False Prophet” are in the lake of fire or second death.
Rev 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, “where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were”; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
So those who die at Armaggedon do not recieve a second death judgement but will have to be resurected to face the day of judgement. Acts 17:31 confirms that every man will face a day of judgement and it is after Christ establishes his earthly kingdom
Hi Brett, thankyou for replying & the scriptual references.
I mean no offence here but I must ask, do you or anyone else actually really understand where I am coming from, what I am saying?
What you are saying, do you mean that we might aswell just live our life as we want with no thought for Jehovah God or Jesus Christ even though they have given us instruction how to conduct ourselves, guidlines how to try & live our lives in line with them, so none of this is relevant or matters NOW? So it really does not matter how we behave or treat each other, it only matters now in this present day if you are of the Anointed? So whatever happens EVERYONE will make to the 1000 years & be given a fresh start so to speak? Providing they repent there & then & accept Jehovah’s laws at that time. So all those ones that have struggled & overcome many trials throughtout their lives trying to live best as they can in accordance to Jehovah & Christ’s teachings might aswell not have bothered?
This doesn’t make sense to me.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – I look forward to Brettstones answer. I will throw in my two cents. You quoted some good scriptures I believe that show that there will be consequences, punishment and discipline directed and those who have done evil in this present life time, but not eternal destruction.
See the After the Atonement Day Sacrifices chapter in the Tabernacle Shadows book. It discusses pictures and types that show how people in the kingdom will look for forgiveness and make ammends. The parable of the sheep and the goats shows the importance and responsibilities of doing good works of kindness to others in the kingdom and the consequences for not participating in good works.
Consequences and discipline relate to evil behavior both in this present life time and also in the kingdom when progressing towards perfection.
Peter,
What if certain 1’s won’t say they’re sori?????If they hav been ruling with their EGO?
Dundee – I hope then that they get a good spanking and learn their lesson! LOL
LOL Peter. I wood hope they wood understand wat is at stake at that time period. The way i’m hard wired is if someone says they’re sori sincerely,the slate is wiped clean. Prob is……they dont say it now. I usually say it.
Daz,
“So all those ones that have struggled & overcome many trials throughtout their lives trying to live best as they can in accordance to Jehovah & Christ’s teachings might as well not have bothered?”
They will be REWARDED for overcoming. Those that don’t bother will not receive that reward but are STILL covered by the ransom and will have a chance for life on their own accord during the judgement day (1000 years). As in Adam ALL die. In the Kingdom ALL will have the chance of life dependent on their faith and actions for the first time. It is not a “second chance” as none have been given the first chance to live forever (since we all die) except those of the Small Flock and their reward is GREAT!
This is my understanding. Any comments Peter?
In Christ,
Br. Chuck
Hi there Chuck, hope you are well.
They will be rewarded? Isn’t being given Everlasting life going to be enough reward?
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Hi Daz,
Doing okay! Hope you and yours are too.
“Isn’t being given Everlasting life going to be enough reward?”
Oh my goodness, yes. That is the promise to ALL mankind if obedient in the Kingdom.
But, the heavenly reward of the small flock and great company are even “better”! To be with our Lord as Kings and Priests would be MUCH better! That is the high calling and reward promised to the overcomers. Divine creatures with life in themselves = small flock. Spiritual creatures = great company.
That is my understanding and I am sure the understanding of many Bible Students as stated in Scriptures.
In Christ,
Br. Chuck
To be able to see God face to face, Eyes have not seen nor ears heard what being in heaven is like. In addition the Spirit changes your outlook to realize the love God shows in letting you help bring mankind to an approved state.
Everlasting life is living forever but living with Jesus is unspeakable.
The witnesses are happy with paradise on earth because living forever is beautiful. Because they were told they couldn’t reach for heaven they accept and I don’t have a problem because not all can or want to, it is an invitation, one can choose not to accept but live a decent life. There are a lot of good people who don’t know Jesus or are even into religion They will have less to overcome as they have been good people. Some will have a hard time because they have never tried to
please anyone but themselves and some will remain that way and figure they will come back over and over again. There is the notion that we ALL have lived another life.
So I say there is merit to being aware now so you make the right decision in Millennium.
The society has jumped the gun like the early apostles thinking Jesus was going to establish the kingdom then.
Over 2,000 years have passed, everybody else has had to wait and this generation and world will also. It is his timetable.
And just to be able to discuss and talk to each other without fear of being labeled or judge is good for me today as I am in the home where everyone is a witness plus visitors coming in and not greeting me. But I got you guys.
Chuck – Here are some verses that show a reward good or bad in commensurate with behavior, but not eternal destruction based on this life.
1Co 3:14 (NASV) “If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.”
Col 3:24 -25 (NASV) “24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. 25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.”
2John 1:8 (NASV) “Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.”
Rev 22:12 (NASV) “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
PARABLE OF SHEEP AND GOATS (Matt 25:31-46)
This parable is about after Jesus appears to the world with his complete bride (messengers). This discusses the judgment of the world during the 1,000 years at which time the sheep are doing good works in harmony with the kingdom and the goats are making no effort to do good and making no progress.
Here are verses showing the future reward of the bride of Christ.
REIGNING AS KINGS & PRIESTS
2 Tim 2:12 – If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. NKJV
Rev 20:6 – first resurrection…they shall be priests of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 1:6 – “has made us kings and priests to His God and Father” NKJV
JUDGES OF ISRAEL & THE WORLD
1 Cor 6:2 – “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” NKJV
Matt 19:28 – “in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. NKJV
Dan 7:27 – “the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints” NIV
Daz I understand your question…
If you do not feel compelled to serve Jehovah and follow in Christ foot steps then I guess you have a point.
I’m not sure why you would take that course if knowing truth.
But know this, that the character you are now will certainly carry over into the millenial age to come. You would be fooling yourself to think that you could have that attitude toward Jehovah and Christ now and then change it in the future. “Those who practiced vile things to a resurection of judgment” were Jesus words that describe those who develop and display a wicked heart.
Brett, I am hoping you have misunderstood what I have been trying to say but if not & you still wish to pass judgement upon me then that is your prerogative but please bear in mind Matthew 7:1, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
I do not judge you, I forgive you for what you have said to me in haste.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz, you stimulated our brains. You are one of us ,struggling to make our brains work. Iron sharpens iron. We have over 200 visitors that was able today to get a good rounded idea of what the Bible says. There has to be a catalyst for a well rounded discussion. No yes men needed here. We can speak!! It feels good!
Take Care dear Daz, think, think, question everything.
Thankyou kindly for your reply Jacqueline, all I have done is present scriptures, I have not put a spin on anything I have posted or twisted the scriptures, if my understanding is incorrect then I am sure my Father in Heaven Jehovah God will make this known to me as I pray & ask for help on understanding constantly & He has not let me down.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz
I found the post that I believe started this!
I should have written it in a rhetorical way, because that was how I meant it…
Sorry the one thing I hate with writing is that it is void of tone, gestures, and body language and I certainly didn’t mean those words in a judging way… Not my intent and I always appreciate your contributions to the discussions here… I believe you have good questions and I had the same question that you asked me… Especially coming from the JW org where I was taught that people had to respond in this age or face 2nd death.
They teach a ransom for all who died in past except a select few but a “Substitute Ransom” for all sorts of people today.
With regards to your question, think of this question!
Of what benefit was it for anyone who has died in the past that lived with Christ and Jehovah in mind, trying to serve them whole souled but died not being of the bride of Christ?
Do they not get the same thing as those who were wicked? They both get a resurrection don’t they?
Let’s say that the identity of the great crowd is as the society says it is, what is there benefit over the those who were resurrected and were evil in the past? They still both face judgment day do they not?
Does this guarantee they will will get everlasting life and the others not? No it does not does it?
Hi Brett, apology accepted, thankyou. I did mention in the original reply to your post in question that I had forgiven you for what you had said, obviously with regards to this reply you have given here, I now know in your heart you did not mean it to come across condemning but you can see why it did.
Even when I was associated JW’s I never believed that they were exclusively the only ones that would receive salvation, I used to argue this point all the time because being from the world of entertainment/performing arts I know & have met some real good people, I know that Jehovah God reads hearts & I have always stood by this fact.
My point was as mentioned in one of my previous posts, that regarding the ‘Ransom For All’ Paul affirms it as a great important truth that Christ freely gave himself as a ransom for all mankind, for Jews and Gentiles, for all classes, all nations of people. The Jews had believed that salvation was exclusively for themselves, their nation, and denied that it could possibly be extended to others outside of their nation, unless they became Jews. Gentiles were classed as an ungodly people were they not? According to the Jews, salvation was not provided for or offered to pagans as such unless on the condition that they also became Jews themselves.
Matthew 20:28, “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Romans 3:25, “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past.”
1Timothy 2:6,” who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.”
Romans 5:6, “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.”
Please don’t shoot me down here, I am just presenting my findngs & present understanding.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz
Go scriptures you utilized.. One suggestion if I may.. I noticed you quoted 1 Tim 2:6 but please Read 1 Tim 2:3-6…
It demonstrates that christ died for all mankind and not just for those who believe..
But it states all men are to be saved and that he is the mediator between God and Man and that his ransom is for all..
Paul was consistent with the teaching of the Ranson, remember in 1 Cor 15:24 he said just as all are dying in Adam, All shall be made alive in the Christ…
Look back over my original post and read ea h of those scriptures carefully..
Paul stated christ is the savior of ALL men especially those that believe..
So he not just the savior of those that believe but ALL men..
I believe Christ accomplish his first task at his first Advent or coming and that was to pay the ransom price..
Also to begin selecting those who would rule with him and administer the blessings promised in the Bible Acts 3:20-21
His second Advent is with the intentions of putting every human who ever lived on trial for life under his kingdom of 1,000 yrs
Those who try their best now and those who in times past served God white whole soul will be in a position to receive life.. The character that we are developing now will either put us in the front line to Finnish the race or we could find ourselves somewhere in the back just moving along if we have not yet tried to put on that new personality..
I don’t believe the faithful men of old (Abraham, Daniel ect) lived Godly lives for nothing just because they come up in the resurrection with the rest of mankind who had no love for Jehovah..
I believe those that begin correcting the things now are in life to a ressurection to life..
Daz…
I’m curious, do you believe that people get judged now in this age? Or do you believe like Jesus stated “That all in the graves will hear his voice and come out”? John 5:28,29?
sorry, just to rectify, I meant to say, I do not believe that God will destroy all those that ‘don’t’ know Him, didn’t mean to say those that ‘do’ know him.
Couple more to add . . . .
Titus 2:12
instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Daz,
If someone not spirit begotten is used to not worshipping correctly now, & has become aware of truth,wen judgemt day comes,that person will hav habits very difficult to break wen it really matters for them to change.Whats the scripture that says “for one will die as a mere boy,although a hundred yrs of age;& as 4 the sinner,although a hundred yrs of age he will hav evil called down on him.” Isaiah 65:20. Compared to having endless life
Daz
It is true that some develop or set a record of character that makes them liable to the judgement of 2nd death.
Jesus said of those Pharisees “how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna”?
Because they had developed the type of character who would face a second death.
You can be a child of Gehenna so to speak but you can’t experience it until the end of the mellinial reign of Christ.
Judgment day is not a literal day. And no one escapes facing the Trial for life.
Religion today has unwittingly taken away a thousand years from Gods plan. The JW’s unwittingly take away that 1,000 yrs from those who have died at Armeggedon or other periods where they say individuals have been directly judged by Jehovah.
But haven’t we all been given a judgment directly from Jehovah? That is the sentence of death through Adam?
Just another thought to add.
Romans 14:10 ……For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” 12 So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
Do you believe this account?
1) that every individual will stand before God on Judgment day?
2) that every m knee shall bend and openly acknowledge Jehovah?
For these to take place then every human who ever lived would have to face the day of judgment day.
In 2 Peter 3 it states about that day, that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day!
QNA,
Thanks for asking this question: “Yet, isn’t it concerning that the difference between the two beliefs are on opposite sides of the fence? Either all will be saved no matter what, or what you do does matter in order to be saved.”
NO. The answer is NO. That is NOT our point of view. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to clarify.
It is not that everyone will be saved no matter what. It is that everyone will have a full opportunity to be saved not matter what. Free will in the kingdom will allow people to choose evil and be eternally destroyed. However, ever effort will be made to save them first.
Rev 22:17 (NASV) “The [Holy] Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
People will have the opportunity to eliminate sin and progress to human perfection like father Adam. Hence they will receive the same test of obedience as Adam – to obey or disobey. Mankind then will be eternally judged by their works or behavior after have fully learned the things written in the books (books of the Bible):
Rev 20:12 (AV) “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
Notice the contrast of those who accept verses those who reject the kingdom arrangement.
Rev 20:14-15 (NASV) 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
RANSOM FOR MANY OR RANSOM FOR ALL
1 Tim 2:6 (NWT) “who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.”
Matt 20:28 (NWT) “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.””
The Bible does not contradict itself. Why did Paul say, that Jesus gave himself a ransom “for ALL,” but Jesus said “for MANY?” The simple answer is that “MANY” (or the many) means “ALL” as demonstrated in Romans.
Rom 5:15 (NWT) “But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many.”
In Romans 5:15, the “many” are ALL of Adam’s posterity, just like those who receive Jesus’ free gift. Just as Adam’s posterity is ALL mankind, so those who will benefit from the free gift on Paradise Earth is ALL Mankind. Yes, ALL Mankind will have the future opportunity of a trial for life under favorable conditions on Paradise Earth. This is what the Society taught in the early days at the time of Pastor Russell.
Paul clearly explains what this free gift is for many (ALL) is:
Rom 6:23 (NWT) “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”
QNA, It is a free gift given to mankind to have the curse of death removed, you don’t have to do a thing, we are saved by GRACE. It is done for every man woman and child that has ever lived coming out of the redeemed one Adam. To qualify to reign and go to heaven, to inherit the “Kingdom of God” IT MATTERS RIGHT NOW WHAT YOU DO. That is why that is a tight race, not all that run will go to heaven.
Actually it isn’t so much the Ransom where witnesses and Bible Students differ although there is a major difference in understanding, it is also who Jesus is talking to and what race they are running NOW. It is to live in Heaven simply stated. Even the governingbody realizes it and tried to correct the former teaching of who Jesus is talking to but many rallied against them on that point and they didn’t push it because many thought they were saying they (the great crowd wasn’t being talked to in the bible).
So yes it does matter what you do to go to heaven. Notice he says get into the kingdom of heaven. Many aren’t trying or concerned. By many I refer to the vast majority of the world that does not even know about Christ that much. He died for all men to be saved but as the scriptures show not all will avail themselves and benefit from this life saving procedure. Some in the Millennium will rebel and it will prove to be a ransom for many not all by their choice under perfect conditions.
Witnesses believe some running for the upward call and some running to live on earth, that may be true but the heavenly call is still open a fact that even the witnesses have admitted in the last few years.
I would like to clarify that when I am answering to QNA, I am keeping in mind she might not be aware of some of the of the difference in thinking between the witnesses and the Bible Students since she is rather new to this all. So I take her back to the thought that witnesses don’t really believe in the gift being free but you have to work hard door to door and other aspects to even benefit but not true all got this gift, free. He was a Ransom for ALL.
Witnesses think the higher call to heaven is closed (They go back and forth on this to let a gb member in and limit who) The term the “inherit Kingdom” refers to receive it as an inheritance or reign with Christ and temple work to bring the earth to God’s standard. It is not talking about running or trying to earn life on earth. The scriptures have to be slotted in the right time period.
All of us are saved by Grace but can attain a higher position offered first to the Jews then to non Jewish members to go to heaven to help the process of redemption in the Millenium. Most on here understand this but I am keeping QNA in mind when I dip back. That is how I see it.
Think not that the WTC is worry about your claims and website, They not even see you as Apostates.This website is only an one direction way to complain against the WTC by one woman mostly, name Jacqueline.Our website http://www.condit-energy.org became three letters of the Legal Department of the WTC, to stop and use Copy Rights from the time of the founder Charles Taze Russel. But we are members of this organization. We denied such stupid claims of them, let they Study first our website. However we not see any good mood with your way of doing, neither that you are in reality Bible Students with slogans” Happy New Year” what is an extreme low profile. We not need to copy the world disaster of Christmas and New Year………agreed ?
Hello Jan, it seems I offend you in some way by speaking the truth of my experiences with the Jehovah witness organization. I would suggest you ignore what I write and concentrate perhaps on some of the articles. I can’t cut them any slack as they don’t cut other people any. I never go to their websites or kingdom halls they come here to pick at us.
I have visited your site many times and observe your unique approach to your association with the watchtower organization.
Can you tell us more? Are you Jehovah witnesses like the United States Jehovah witnesses? Do they accept you as a branch or congregation? I have visited your site but can’t really understand your connection.
I know there are other witnesses that came out of the iron curtain, but aren’t really associated with the United States watchtower.
Maybe you can explain to us and I mean it in a friendly way, curious. sincerely Jacqueline
Jan this is a post from a dear friend Joe Emerson. What do you think about this? (posted exactly as he wrote, Joe has struggles now).You know a lot about agriculture and the Bible so thought you might comment on this. Take Care
NEW YEARS CELEBRATION IN THE BIBLE: At Leviticus 23 God told Moses, 24 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts. 25 Do no regular work, but present a food offering to the LORD.” Rosh Ha Shanah (Head The Year > Head of The Year > New Year’s Day) began on sundown September 24 through September 26 in 2014, lasting two days, festive yet serious. It is lunar instead of solar based, so the date varies year to year but generally-speaking is in September or October, a period significant in nature and agriculture. The common greeting is “Shana Tova” (Shah-nah Toh-vah, meaning Year Happy > Happy Year!) It’s a time for asking and giving forgiveness, resolving to do better in the new year.
During this Leviticus 23-based celebration the wish for a “sweet” Happy Year is symbolized by eating honey and apples. There are different branches of Judaism, but some other foods commonly eaten are black-year peas, khalla bread that symbolizes the coming around of the new year, black-eyed peas, pomegrates the many seeds of which symbolize fertility, dates, leeks, spinach, and gourds.
The shofar is the name of the trumpet used to commemorate the New Year which God first gave Moses. Modern Christians do not have to celebrate the day as Jews have but may since Paul says to not let others judge us by if we celebrate (or don’t celebrate) holy days, and “holy days” to the people whom he was writing included this one.
JanHoestra, I just looked over your site really good along with another person. What happened to the photo of Br. Russell?? I notice you have the New- New world translation bible. Tell us who you are. Is Willibrordus A. van der Weide still with you? Are you Bible Students or Witnesses?
Jan Hoekstra – I have been reading your comments from other posts and I am beginning to understand you better. I can see that you are offended by our discussion of Christmas, the cross and other topics. I am sorry if we have offended you. We are NOT encouraging people to celebrate Christmas. We realize that the world has made a big circus of this celebration. What we are trying to say is that the Bible does not prohibit us from celebrating Jesus birth. Hence it is a matter of conscience. We should not create rules prohibiting Christian liberty, however it is okay to express your concerns about old Pagan celebrations that took place at the same time of year and today’s materialism and fiction stories about Santa Claus. I understand and respect what you are saying and for conscience sake, many should not celebrate Jesus’ birth. However, neither should we condemn those who respectfully want to remember their Savior’s birth and the greatest gift ever given – his life for mankind.
Regarding the cross, remember that Brother Russell did not worship the cross as do many Christians who use it as an idol symbol of sorts. We can debate whether the Greek word means torture stake or cross, but in the end, does it really matter if we are NOT using the cross as an idol like some denominational Churches? The cross and crown surrounded by a wreath symbolized that Christians by daily cross bearing (suffering with Jesus) will gain the crown of life. Then they will share with Jesus in his Kingdom offering eternal life (symbolized by the evergreen wreath) to mankind. So do you think Brother Russell was engaged in idol worship, or Bible Students today?
Let us respect our brothers conscience and leave the judging to Jehovah.
I thank u 4 helping me with my fear & anxiety.
Also helping me thru my experiences.
Patiently & consistantly showing me scriptures that would change my thinking
& brighten my outlook on the future.
Gently nudging me with a shepherds staff & never beating me with it.
I thank u 4 helping me get to know Jehovah & the One whom He sent forth,Christ Jesus
I’m enjoying this web site very much!
In fact it became an answer to my supplications.
Feeling that if its been a platform 4 my healing,I’m confident its helping others.
Been really enjoying the links 2 various brethren presenting Bible Discources that are appealing.
Helping me attempt 2 have Jehovah & Jesus’ thinking on matters.
I can see i will have yrs of study here.
Been downloading electronic books & booklets from here 2 my (UB Reader app)-
A digital bookshelf of precious Bible Truths.
i am delighted to have joined the “Household of Faith” in 2014…
I began as a Witness reflecting on every scripture I found in connection with the Ransom for all. And put together a list made with the New World Translation comparing it with other translations such as the American Standard, king James and the Greek Diaglott. Pointing out how the NWT has hid the Ransom for all. I believe this is something every JW should evaluate in the New Year and hear it is.
“Ransom for all”
John 12:32(NWT) And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw “ALL SORTS” of men to myself.”
(American Standard Version) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw “All” men unto myself
1 Timothy 2:4
(NWT) whose will is that “ALL SORTS” of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth
(King James Version) Who will have “ALL” men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
Titus 2:11
(NWT) For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to “ALL SORTS” of people
(American Standard Version) For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to “ALL” men
1Timothy 4:10
(NWT) This is why we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all “SORTS” of men, especially of faithful ones.
(King James Version) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of “ALL” men, specially of those that believe
Romans 5:18
(NWT) So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of “ALL SORTS” was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of “ALL SORTS” is their being declared righteous for life.
(American Standard Version) So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto “ALL” men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto “ALL” men to justification of life.
(King James Version) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon “ALL” men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon “ALL” men unto justification of life.
(Greek Diaglott) therefore indeed as through one offense, sentence came on “ALL MEN” to condemnation ; so also, through one righteous act, sentence came on “ALL MEN” to justification of life
Notice the same ALL who come under judgment to condemnation, are the same ALL who are justified to life because of Jesus one righteous act (Ransom)
Just as no man can get out of the sentence to death, no man can get out of the sentence to life
All or Many?
1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for “ALL” —this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness “he might taste death for EVERYONE”
1 John 2:2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in Adam “ALL” are dying, so also in the Christ “ALL” will be made alive
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which “ALL” those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.
What does “MANY” mean? Allow scripture to interpret scripture
Matthew 20:28
(NWT) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for MANY.”
Romans 5:15
(NWT) But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass “MANY”died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man,
(American Standard Version) But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one “THE MANY” died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
Romans
Romans 5:19
(NWT) For just as through the disobedience of the one man “MANY” were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.
(American Standard Version) For as through the one man’s disobedience “THE MANY” were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.
Romans 5:15 and 19 indicate because of Adams trespass or disobedience “THE MANY” we’re made sinners and we know according to Romans 5:12 “ALL MEN” became sinners. So the many represent ALL.
Brettstone – This really improves on our impression of Jehovah’s loving character, doesn’t it? Thanks.
Brettstone,
I feel the same. And so last year i spoke to 1 jw friend that i was working for in her home. I explained this to her carefully & she agreed it sounded right.It was so appealing that she actually told me that i should write to the WT.So i asked her how she felt that letter would be received. Her reply was i’d probably be DFd. Then she reasoned that it was probably written “all sorts” so that we’d get more #’s in the fold for fear of death.She also sed if i had this conversation with her fleshly sister she wood never allow it & get the elders 2 correct my thinking promptly.She warned me to be careful with the other friends.To feel them out 1st.She marveled that i knew i could express these scriptures with her without fear of being reported.
i told my jw dad those scriptures & he cut me off & sed i’m a borderline apostate & he will have no further spiritual association with my children& i.No contact at all infact.That Only jw would be saved! I pray more of our jw friends & family will come to know the Ransom for All and be able to meditate on what that actually means for the world.
Dundee
It is sad isn’t it that we realy never have had the right to ask honest questions without fear of being persecuted in the Org.
Brettstone,
Yes that is sad. I remember the brothers talking against the catholics,saying the priest don’t like questions.Then we were told to encourage our Catholic Bible studies or R’V’s to go ahead & ask away of their priests. Yet i remember asking questions of elders & each time the word apostate would come up in conversation,then i’d b horrified! Fear of being expelled & like NEVER being allowed back in. I’d shut up for awhile but then i’d hav sincere questions again. I even mentioned Jesus at a young age asking away of the scribes. I said sum things to 1 of my peers who was about 2 be a partaker @ memorial & he said to me..”Get behind me.” This is what happened, He sed his mother wood die at Armageddon.asking why he sed she duznt want 2 attend meeting cause sum jw’s were intentionally attacking her way in the past.but that if she duznt attend meetings she will hav consequences…second death. I explained bout Christ’ ransom for all….then tells me i’m satan.Ok really?? So he will Go to heaven & be a judge killing his mother cause of legitimate fears,experiences. He wouldnt hear my thoughts…. I like yur deep thinking of deep things of God the scriptures u relate about.Deep Scripture.You r finding hidden treasures in Gods Word.
Brettstone,
Wen the new scrolls r opened i’d like to sit with u,Daz,Peter,Jacqueline & hav a panel discussion.We wood love the scrolls!! Well anything from Jehovah we wood luv.
Hi Brett, hope you are well. So are you saying that trying to live by Jehovah God’s standards, trying follow in Christ’s ways plays no part in salvation? A man can do as he wishes throughout his life & be wicked, evil but still expect to be saved??
If this was the case & ALL get saved no matter what then why would our Father in Heaven & His Son give us instruction how to try & live our lives?
John 3:18-20, Jesus says,”He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
Matthew 10:22, “You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Jesus said, ” Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” – Matthew 7:21
The wa I see it is that Jesus makes it clear that there are some that He may not accept, ones He calls “workers of iniquity ” – “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” – Matthew 7:23.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz the run for the higher call of Jesus will not be attained by all even as Matt. 7:21 states. Jesus is talking to Christians running for this heavenly calling. Judgement does not mean Gehenna as that judgement occurs after the thousand years.
That is where I learned incorrectly. Most of mankind and the world today don’t accept Jesus as their saviour, in fact some have heard of him but have never read a Bible as they are Muslim or some other large religion.
Jesus died as a ransom for all these people. Some are born and will die in a non Christian religious system, so by birth or circumstances should they not benefit from his Ransom?
That ransom is powerful and can and does cover all of mankind not just a handful. In Millennium it will matter how one walks with God as the “TRUTH” of what he wants and the ability to do it without the devil will be possible.
I was taught to jump the gun and put judgement day now but I know it is 1,000 years long when we don’t have the devil around. And yes, the world at large are doing exactly as they please as they are not running for the upward call. Jehovah ignored any but his people the Jews, even major governments except those that impacted Israel. So we see this in the bible, he is taking out a people for his name now and in Millennium judgement of mankind.
Armageddon is the takedown of our rulerships and society and the installment of Christ Kingdom. He is not coming to judge the world and kill people as depicted in the watchtower magazines, that is for control and fear so members don’t leave.
BTW have a great year, this is the first day. I enjoyed meeting you this last year and we have all got to become friends although we are thousands sometimes miles apart. Take Care.
Hi Jacqueline, I hope you have been keeping well.
I am not referring to those who are ignorant through no fault of their own, ones that have not had the chance to learn about Jesus, I know Jehovah & Christ are just, loving & merciful.
Let’s be honest, most people pretty much know right from wrong, we learn from children. If we break the disobey break the law we get punished by the law put in place whilst we live in this current system. We all have our own consciences.
Jesus has been given all authority & justly judges all, why would he have been given this task if there is no reason for judging anyone?
The following scriptures give examples & are self explanatory:
2 Thessalonians 1:6; Matthew 12:36; Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:1. God holds everyone accountable for their decision/choices they make.
Acts 17:30; Romans 2:12-16, 3:20.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Hi Daz and yes I am doing well so far, just as the man said who was falling from a forty floor building to the people at the 27th floor, so far so good.LOL
I am not saying Jesus will not judge, it is the time period I speak of. Judgement day is 1,000 years.
Yes there are consequences for every action a person takes. Some pay immediately with death or some consequence. Some appear to have gotten away with receiving consequences for bad actions.
But that is not judgement day. That is for every action there is an equal reaction, science. Yes we are accountable for our actions sometimes right now. thoughout the bible Jehovah never mentions the nations much bigger than the ones affecting Israel because he was dealing with them, so now he is taking out the persons to reign with Christ. This is just how I understand it, you may see it differently and I can respect that.
Also I wanted to add a facebook friend believes that now is judgement day also that when a person dies he goes to heaven or hell. I asked what if his religion was not teaching him the truth? If he was confused by all the different religious beliefs, would he have to die and remain dead or could Christ ransom cover him and allow him to be resurrected on earth under the truth and ideal conditions to see if he would get the point? Waiting for her answer.
Daz,
I understand that by strictly studying the Bible, you are perhaps trying to avoid being influenced by others and let the Bible speak for itself. If everyone did that rather than following organized religion, we would all be in a better place. You may not understand what Bible Students believe on Salvation???
You said, “Jesus has been given all authority & justly judges all, why would he have been given this task if there is no reason for judging anyone?”
As Jacqueline said, the judgment of mankind takes place during the 1,000 years (and also the Little Season that follows – Rev 20:3, 7). It is clear from the scriptures that even ALL will be raised from the dead, even the wicked. However, they are resurrected during a 1,000 year judgment period in which there is chastening, discipline and making amends with victims for their wicked acts in this life as well as education, instructions and if necessary further discipline to bring them to repentance and righteousness in the kingdom. The wicked who will not repent will be destroyed. We have nearly 100 scriptures that lay this information out here: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
You quoted several scriptures to show (I think) that wicked people will receive final judgment in this life. However none of these scripture talk about “eternal destruction” as a result of behavior in this life. Some may describe consequences and punishments in this life, however this does not conflict with other scriptures that promise an awakening from the dead for ALL as a result of Jesus’ Ransom sacrifice.
If you disagree and want to discuss anyone of these scriptures, I would be happy to do so with you.
What I like about you Daz is that it is clear you are studying your scriptures in order to arrive at your conclusions and you have provided the best scriptures anyone could come up with to demonstrate your point. I can totally see how you would view that judgment as in this life after reading the scriptures you cited. This is why the Divine Plan of the Ages is so helpful. For example, it lays out how the Bible shows there are different ages for different purposes (i.e. Age of Patriarchs, Jewish Age, Gospel Age and Millennial Age). According to the Bible, each age has a purpose and is a stepping stone leading to the age that follows and accomplishing it’s purpose.
Thanks for sharing with use Daz. Bible Students love to discuss God’s Word. I am glad you are here.
Hi there Peter, hope you are doing well, thankyou kindly for your reply, please know that I really do understand what you are saying. I do not oppose the fact that the wicked get a resurrection & will be given a chance via their judgement to repent & follow God’s instruction. I am referring to the wicked alive now. What if the day of Jehovah God comes tomorrow, what of those who profess to be teachers of God’s word but whose teachings are misleading, teaching false doctrine? What of those in the world who are murdering & abusing innocent people? What of those waging mindless wars & causing mass destruction? what of those who speak against God Almighty & His Son? Are you saying that none of this really matters NOW?
2Peter 2:1, “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”
2Peter 2:12, “But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed.”
Philippians 3:18-19, “For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.”
Galatians 5:21, “envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
1Corinthians 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
2Thessalonians 1:8-9, “dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
1Corinthians 10:7-11, “Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”
Matthew 7:13, “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Just wanted to add another scripture that I think is appropriate:
Mark 13:35-37, “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back–whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. I say to you what I say to everyone: Watch for him!”
Here Mark is clearly explaining that Jesus wasn’t just telling His Chosen ones/Apostles to keep on the watch for him but He is addressing everyone! So here it makes it clear that yes everyone needs to be aware of this fact & try to live their lives in the ways of Christ Jesus, surely He wouldn’t be making a point of addressing everyone to keep watch if it wasn’t important for ALL mankind!
Daz- How about this?
Mark 14:27, 29 NASB
And Jesus said to them, “You will ALL fall away, because it is written, ‘I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered .’ But Peter said to Him, ” Even though ALL may fall away, yet I will not.”
“ALL” is same Greek word as “EVERYONE.”
More examples upon request.
Daz, most can’t watch out for him as they have probably never read anything about him. Only a little tiny part of humans today are Christians. Some American children think Noah was the first man to walk on the moon. Some societies would kill you if you had a bible. Is it just to condemn them to gehenna when God can make their circumstances so they can know and level the playing field. He will but I have come to respect his timetable.
But sometimes it is difficult to wait. I think we are a part of something really big thousands of years from now. Just thinking out loud.
Hi Daz!
It has been so nice to see you on this site. You put forth some interesting Scripture and keep us that are reading your posts on our toes and thinking! I always look forward to Peter and Jacqueline’s responses also.
I do have some thoughts on this subject as I see it from Scripture. I would like to lay out a few things as I see them.
1) Jehovah is a loving God. We cannot even imagine the scope of that love as fallen creatures.
2) Did Jehovah put into motion the creation of billions of humans just to pick a few (millions even ?) to keep around in the long run? I believe He has a purpose for ALL creation in His plans as we are ALL his children. Obedient or not. (Mostly not!)
3) Now, here is the catch. It seems that many of us want those that are not living up to the standards we are trying to follow to be punished. Most worldly denominations preach this thought. It is a hard race to run. Kind of like “If I have to then why shouldn’t they? They shouldn’t get the same reward as I do!”
4) My understanding is this: During the restitution of ALL things, God starts anew with ALL men. Those that are following His rules now will be rewarded, and not the other way around where those who don’t are punished. The “bad guys” will have harder lessons to learn and take more stripes (punnishment), but, they have been RANSOMED just the same as those that follow His rules presently. He will eventually know the heart of every man after his “judgement” period has ended (1000 years).
In closing, we should never assume to be “special” and “deserving better”. We should also never assume Gods love is like our human love that can falter at times. He will surely judge those that are “mean, cruel, and murdurous” etc. but, let’s not assume his judgement is like our human judgment either. We are all broken. His ways are SO much higher than ours! And ALL his decisions are based on love. Love that only our most Holy Father can understand and carry out.
Does anyone else see things this way?
Sincerely,
Br. Chuck
Daz,
Thanks. Excellent and powerful scriptures to support your point. That is why I wish you were a Bible Student. LOL
You spoke about the most wicked people alive NOW and asked me the question, “Are you saying that none of this really matters NOW?” I am not sure I understand your thinking on what scriptural bases you think that the wicked dead will awakened to a judgment period and opportunity to repent, but that the wicked now living not be awakened to that judgment period after death??? Perhaps I misunderstood you in part???
My opinion based on how I understand scriptures is that it DOES matter greatly whether people have been wicked or good. Each person is awakened from the dead with the same character they died with. Some people will be so far gone in evil and wickedness that not even lots of help and discipline will turn their hearts. The consequence of awakening with such a wicked character could ultimately result in “second death” or “everlasting destruction” if after 100 years they have made no progress towards repentance and righteousness (Isaiah 65:20).
In understanding all the texts you have been quoting, it is important to realize that only the spirit begotten New Creation are NOW on trial for life or destruction during this present Gospel Age (from Pentecost until the bride of Christ is complete). The remainder of mankind WILL BE on trial for life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ and His Bride, once the general resurrection begins.
You quoted:
Matthew 7:13, “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”
As I understand it, all mankind, except for the New Creation are on this broad road to destruction and have no hope for life now during this Gospel Age. (Romans 5:10) Only the New Creation is on this Narrow Way now and are offered life and immortality (Rom 2:7: 1 Cor 15:53-54; 1 Tim 6:16). This Broad Road to Destruction will not end until the earthly kingdom begins to be set up at which time there will open up to mankind, as they awaken from the dead, the “Highway of Holiness.” No longer will darkness cover the earth and gross darkness the people (Isaiah 25:6-8; 60:1-3, 10-12). Through the light of the kingdom, righteousness will be so clear that not even a fool would be confused and err therein.
Isaiah 35:8 (Amplified) “And a highway shall be there, and a way; and it shall be called the Holy Way. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it shall be for the redeemed; the wayfaring men, yes, the simple ones {and } fools, shall not err in it {and } lose their way.”
Let’s look at the scriptures you quoted.
2 Peter 2:12, “But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed.”
Notice the context:
2 Peter 2:1 (NASV) “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”
Only the New Creation have now been BOUGHT with the Ransom and are on trial for life during this present Gospel Age. If they reject the Narrow Way and get back on the Broad Road to Destruction, they cannot be resurrected from the dead, because the Ransom can only be applied once per person as Hebrews 6:6 shows.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASV) “4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
Your next scripture:
Philippians 3:18-19, “For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.”
Although it does not say, “ETERNAL destruction,” this verse too may be talking about those who turned back on their covenant – being baptized into Christ’s body, then turning back to the Broad Road to Destruction.
Your next scripture:
Galatians 5:21, “envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” [Note you also quoted 1 Cor 6:9-10 which is the same point about “inherit.”)
This verse does not say, will not ENTER the kingdom of God; rather, will not INHERIT it. For INHERIT, the Strongs # is Compare:
Rev 21:7 (AV) “He that overcometh shall INHERIT all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
Heb 6:12 (AV) “That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience INHERIT the promises.
Galatians 5:21 is talking about inheriting the promise to reign with Christ over the earth, NOT entering the earthly kingdom.
Your next scripture:
1 Corinthians 10:7-11, “Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”
None of these people were eternally destroyed. They will be resurrected from the dead and face the consequences of their behavior with loving discipline. The example for us is to not commit the type of sins which lead to destruction.
This covers the verses you quoted. Mankind on earth in the kingdom will face a judgment period in which they will have the opportunity to repent and learn righteousness.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Rev 22:14 – Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are immoral, murderers, idolaters and liers.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.“
Ps 96:10-13 – “The LORD reigns…He shall judge the peoples righteously… let the earth be glad”
Ps 67 – “let the nations be glad and sing for joy! For You shall judge the people righteously”
Ps 9:8 – “He shall judge the world in righteousness, And He shall administer judgment for the peoples”
Thankyou again for replying Peter.
Firstly just let me say, I am a Bible student am I not? I am learning & understanding the scriptures, just because I am not affiliated with a particular group, society, organization does not imply I am anything less.
Secondly I respect your faith, your views & I do not come on here to war with you or anyone else, I am not here to cause any upset, just present truth via the scriptures. I present scriptures that I feel speak for themselves & tell the truth, what you see is what you get.
I do not try to twist any scriptual references as I do not believe that the basic teaching of the scriptures are supposed to be confusing.(1 Corinthians 14:33, For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.)
I have said this before, NO-ONE has ALL the answers only Jehovah God holds the key to everything & has ALL the answers.
My posts are never vindictive or neither do I attack, I only speak truth & defend truth, I try to help others if & where I can.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – I do recognize you are a student or scripture and a Bible Student. I was using the expression “Bible Student” to refer to refer to the “Bible Student” group I am associated with. Yes, I would love to have you be a part of our group! I can understand how if you have suffered from great evil on a personal level, it would be difficult to imagine that such wicked people would deserve an opportunity for repentance and life. You said, “I present scriptures that I feel speak for themselves & tell the truth.” I do have more to say on the points you are discussing, however, I gather that my answers have not been persuasive thus far. So I will let this go. I believe you did a good job of presenting scriptures to support your perspective and I am sure that others reading your words agree with you and will find your scriptures persuasive as well. Thanks. We love you Daz.
Daz,
Hi.i’m good.I trust u r well. I think Jacqueline expressed it nicely. I’m in agreement what she was expressing. As for me & my household, i want to learn as much as i can while i’m alive about Jehovah’s plan,i want 2 increase my Faith,i want to have works to back up my faith,i want to continue to make changes to bring my life into harmony with the Truth.Want to be a difference in this wicked world.Want to set an example.Open minded to learn.Always trying to progress spiritually. i’ve only begun to have my eyes open.i want to exert myself & do.i dont want to put Jehovah to the test & be wicked. I know that lifestyle isnt beneficial at all.
Hi Dundee, thankyou for your reply, I am glad you are good, as am I, thankyou.
Yes Jacqueline made some very good points & I understand & respect her opinion & belief although I do not see it in the exact same way.
That is commendable that you are letting your mind be open to learn my friend, well done as many will not allow theimselves to be molded by Jehovah God. If you have a one way tunnel vision like most religions have, this tends to prevent the learning process beyond a certain point. I too search for truth, thirst for truth & I let Jehovah God & Jesus Christ direct me, I put no trust in men, I trust in God Almighty & His Son above all else. I have learned much since my departure from the Watchtower organization & still learning. I still have friends there, well at least I hope I can still call them friends as they have not made any contact with me in quite a while but I do not judge these ones as it is not my place.
I respect all that have faith in the one true God & His Son Jesus Christ but this doesn’t mean that I accept all that they may try & teach or preach. make sure of all things, test out everything scriptually.
1John 4:1, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
1Thessalonians 5:21, “but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.”
Colossians 2:8, “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”
1Peter 4:11, “If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
1 Peter 3:15, “But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect.”
As I said I let Jehovah guide & teach me, I have had much revealed to me through the scriptures & been tested & I expected I will still continue to face tests & trials & makes my faith grow stronger.
Colossians 3:16, “Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.”
2Corinthians 12:9, “And he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest on me.”
James 1:12, “Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.”
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz,
Thank u 4 those scriptures. I will always reflect on those closely. 🙂
Peace be with u my friend.
Hi Dundee, no thanks necessary as it’s my absolute pleasure, I hope they help you my friend.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz,
Scriptures stimulate my neurons & get me thinking. I like thinking. Never knew what that was b4…lol
Daz
John 12:46-48
46 I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness. 47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 Whoever disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him on the last day.
This last day is the same last day which Martha referred to when saying in regards to lazurus “I know he will rise on the last day”
Daz… This age from Christ to the end of it at Armegeddon is for the gathering of the bride of Christ, the 144,000….
Christ 1st coming was to save the world from sin and death.. His second coming, advent or parousia is to establish his kingdom of 1,000 years to judge mankind individualy…
Please read 1Tim 2:3-6
Daz.. One of Jehovahs attributes is justice…
He cannot violate his own standards of justice…
Jehovah required a payment or Ransom to purchase what was lost and that included Adam and his offspring with Jesus giving his life in exchange…
Jesus met the required payment with his life thus paid what was required…
Jehovah could not require a payment as a ransom and then have it paid and meet the requirement then refuse it for some.. That violates his righteous standard of justice…
Very nice article and statements made. I have to say that in times past as one of Jehovahs Witnesses for 20 yrs I often found myself, forcefully pushing my doctrine in an unloving way when others disagreed. When I dicovered this site and learned the most important doctrine “The Ransom for All”, that all changed. I could now listen to individuals even if I knew their understanding lacked knowledge accurate of Jehovahs plan for mankind. I now could respect them and their beliefs, not feeling it is absolutely vital I overturned every wrong statement. I found my relationship and view changing. My wife family are Pentecostal and in time past it created difficulty because I was constantly ready to attack their beliefs but now I know the Ransom is for them as well and “the future for mankind is bright” (A favorite statement on Frank and Ernest radio show). I feel for Ana and David because I know where they come from and it has been pounded into their belief system to defend even by attacking. I pray they too find the very foundation doctrine of “The Ransom for All” to be freed from the enslavement of the “Us only” sectarianism.
Bresttstone – Yes, Justice in not JUST US.
Brettstone,
In my prayers to Jehovah i recount in my memories my insistance that my jw viewpoint was correct.I’d even imply there was a consequence if my Bible Studies or family or friends didnt accept it. I feel badly now also. I was on the gentler end, in comparision to my pioneer friends.They were really direct!i wood cringe. Now learning about the Ransom 4 all also, i find myself aching 4 them to be blessed in the Kingdom arrangemt. I see them all in the Kingdom in perfection & joy in paradise.
Brettstone,
It seems strange to me that the witnesses point at the faith of Brother Russell separating from Nelson Barbour over an apparent change in the Ransom doctrine, and all the while claim that they still teach the same Ransom today that he taught. Anyone who has done a little research on this would know that the “ransom” that the JWs teach and believe today is not the same as that which Brother Russell showed from the Scriptures.
Jeff
You are exactly right…
I was amazed when I discovered it. At first I didn’t want to acknowledge it, but I couldn’t help it because I have always been reasonable. When thinking about the Ransom it clicked one when I thought about Jehovahs justice. Here it was what I mean!
I would use the example of Jehovahs perfect justice when proving the Trinity wrong. Jehovah required a perfect man in exchange for the life of a perfect man a corresponding ransom an exact equal. So therefore Jesus couldn’t have been a God man it would go beyond what was required. Violate Jehovahs perfect justice (eye for eye, soul for soul)
It then dawned on me…. If Jehovah required payment of a perfect mans life for Adam and his offspring then when payment was made, it would violate Jehovahs own righteous standards for him to refuse it to some when it was paid in full.. Excuse the expression but growing up we would call that a “Indian giver” some one who receives payment or gives a gift then takes it back…