Quoting form author Kenneth Rawson, in his book, Pastor Russell the Founder of the Bible Students, not the Jehovah’s Witnesses (2nd Edition), we read the following:
With all the Internet exchange of information, Jehovah’s Witnesses are beginning to realize that the image of Judge Rutherford is a liability and they are out to minimize his stature and fictionalize a relationship between Pastor Russell and Jehovah’s Witnesses that never existed.
Additionally, there are thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses and ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses who are dissatisfied with the current operation of the Watch Tower and the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Unfortunately, many have become mentally depressed.
Both my parents were Bible Students before Judge Rutherford gained control of the Watch Tower. From a young age I have vivid memories of discussions my parents had with other Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s day concerning the takeover of the Watch Tower by Judge Rutherford and the direction he pursued.
Also, my situation in the Bible Student movement during the 1940s through the 1960s enabled me to have discussions with more close associates of Pastor Russell than other Bible Students. This history has been invaluable to me.
I learned from these associates of Pastor Russell that in 1926 Judge Rutherford discarded the basic Scriptural teaching of character development. Galatians 5:18-25 and 2 Peter 1:4-11. He said we are characters and can’t change. They felt this was to justify some of his questionable actions. Actually, this was the beginning of the end of many Bible Students’ relationship to the Watch Tower. Why?
Pastor Russell’s Bible Students cherished the teaching of character development. They believed that the 144,000 were to share with Jesus in the Kingdom, as sympathetic priests (1 Peter 2:9) who would nurture, develop in love and judge the world of mankind. To qualify for this work they must now develop the character likeness of the Heavenly Father. 2 Corinthians 3:18.
The writer published some of this material in the 1950s, 1970s and most of it in the 1990s, but the need is now greater than ever. The information goes forth with the prayer that by our Heavenly Father’s grace it will give Scriptural direction to those who love Jehovah.
To read more, click on this link: C.T. Russell Not Founder of JWs
Anonymous, why do you call the BS “evil”. have ever compared their literature to Jw lit.? I’d say 75% of the BS beliefs and Jw beliefs are the same.
Ken R, good point. Is it that scripture that says that evil slave will begin to beat their brother? Really the 75% that left were thrown out or in other ways disrespected by Br. Rutherford in the Hostile take over. So maybe anonymous will come back on and tell us why he personally think we are evil. I saw the look on one sister’s face when I said the society call the BS the “evil” slave at a chicago convention. I never said that again, she was truly hurt by such an accusation. She didn’t know they wrote that about the dear brothers that scattered after the takeover.
(Tee-Hee,) I notice you are using more of your name (:). I used to be ptt7000 on here finally I began to just use my name. Thought we didn’t notice didn’t you?
I didn’t understand the last part of your post. Do you think I’m Anonymous?
No, I know one anonymous from another. He has talked with Br. Peter before. It was an interesting conversation as they were talking about the real greek words. Our Br. is Greek.
One thing should be made clear is that the JW’s were not the only break-away group from the original BS movement, although they were the most significant. Between 1918 and 1929, there were several schisms in the BS movement. Among them the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Laymen’s Home Missionary Movement, the Dawn Bible Students Association and the Free Bible Students (http://cmfellowship.org/docs/home.htm). These groups ranged from faithfully following C.T.Russell, believing his teachings were not as important any longer or disagreeing with him completely. Most of C.T. Russell’s teachings were not original, I would venture to say all but I can’t be certain. He was influenced by William Miller, Jonas Wendell, George Storrs and especially by Nelson H Barbour and John H. Paton. The last two were responsible for convincing Russell that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. He financed Barbour’s book, The Three Worlds, (http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/3worlds.pdf) which is very similar to The Studies in the Scriptures, some parts even word for word. The “gentile times” which ended in 1914, still taught by JW’s and BS, is taken from this book, among other teachings. So when JW’s call BS “the evil slave”, they should keep in mind that they are continuing to preach some of the same doctrines expounded by the BS even if they didn’t originate with Br. Russell. The facts that I am presenting here are taken from the very informative article in Wikipedia, under Bible Student Movement, recommended reading.
Goodbye Jacqueline .
Thanks for all your hard work and all your help.
God be with you always
much affection
Patrick
Goodbye Patrick, hope you use this site to help you. Nice talking to you. Sincerely my brother. Jacqueline
Oh, BTW Patrick and Stephen perhaps the two of you can consort together and write as one. I am administration I see more than the general reader since both of you seem to be on the same page. Or you may continue to write as two.
Thanks either is just fine.
Thank you for generously granting this option Jacqueline. I shall bear it in mind for future comments.
What a magnanimous person you are. Your kindness is to be most envied.
With all my heart
I thank you
Brother Russell was not the founder of the so called “Bible Students” sects either.
Anonymous, what are your thoughts on Br. Russell? Do you feel he played a part in spearheading divine truth in the 19th century? I know there were others that were sincerely searching during that time also, but is it Br. Russell, the Bible Students or J. witnesses that sparks a seemingly harsh note with you? I ask sincerely. Jacqueline
Brother Russell was an annointed brother , whom the Lord used in order to reestablish the true church in earth.He made some mistakes ,as all men do(as bro Rutherford made mistakes too)but he was still a man of God.And i strongly believe that he is in heaven now,with all the saints , protecting the church and promoting God’s will.And ,believe me , i have investigated most of the bible students movement formed in the 19th century
Br. Anonymous thanks for replying. My grandfather goes back to Br. Russell and he lived thru Br. Rutherford and part of Br. Knorr. He had a grip on some aspects of what was happenning. I think you would agree that JW are not the same as Br. Russell’s thoughts on scripture either. My brother went thru studies in the scriptures to be a missionary in the 1960’s but was not taught what it really said about armageddon.
It is true that Jehovah accepts many as his worshipers and the men used really do not matter. He can use donkey’s and stones if any humans don’t respond. We here are not your enemy we are you brothers. You are very knowlegable in Greek, indeed. Don’t think we are not reading your comments and your wording it helps us to have an actual Greek Brother who speaks the language and not just a school learned greek scholar. So welcome. I and others like reading your thoughts. I think that if being a JW is not a problem for you then we don’t want to make it a problem. I don’t even talk to my family about my teachings or associations with the BS. Only if it comes up mutually. Actually we all sound like Judah and Israel. LOL. Yet Jehovah dealt with both of them and they both were his people. Some Jews were probably furious, Myself, I am doing much better spiritually in association with the BS. The New York GB had become a bully with me and I was not going to back down and neither were they. So I departed in peace with no fanfare. They leave me alone and all of us are cordial to each other. They are giving many hope. Quite a few of JW do well with everything spelled out for them. Some people don’t like to seach, some do. That why Jehovah allows both the BS and the JW to exist and I ain’t fighting with him. Take care my brother. Sincerely Jacqueline
Even though i do not agree with many of the views presented here,i thank for the comments
Anonymous – Why do you say that Brother Russell was not the founder of the “Bible Students.” We can trace back brethren from my Grandparents time that personally new Brother Russell and were Bible Students in his day. When Rutherford changed the doctrines and created an Organization, 75% of the original Bible Student left and continued to operate as independent congregations, as they had in the early Watchtower days.
i said brother Russell was not the founder of the {modern day} so called “bible students ” sects that were formed in 1917,1918 , 1930 ect. Theie founders were the apostate former leaders of the Society.And many Jws i know, they have their family roots too in the OLD Bible Studnent movements and to those who remain loyal to the Society.
Seems this discussion has been going on for a while. So I may be repeating a lot, but gotta get my “2 cents in.” Being a former JW I remember what I was taught concerning Brother Russell. And according to that big book that I think is the “history” of JWs, Brother Russell started having small groups that were called “Bible Students” to study the bible. He wrote the 6 volumes of the Studies in the Scriptures, the Tabernacle Shadows and the original Watch Tower (notice it is two words not one) magazine. The Watchtower Society does not deny that. However, when the Pastor died, guidance of the BIble Students was taken over by a Brother Rutherford. It was with him that major changes with the Bible Students began to be made. All of which were totally in opposition with what Pastor Russell had taught. So in 1935 (I think) the name Jehovah’s Witnesses was adopted. Sounds to me that was the start of the apostasy and the apostates were and are the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Watchtower Organization. The Bible Students of today use the original volumes of the Studies In The Scriptures, Tabernacle Shadows, Watch Tower articles and Pastor Russell’s discourse through the years for assistance in understanding what GOD is trying to teach us in his Word. What the JW’s study is what the Governing Body teaches and it is their words that a JW must believe and not waver from to stay in good standing – NOT Jehovah’s. Personally, I have really come to resent how the Watchtower Organization doesn’t even teach GOD’s teachings. Forget Pastor Russell… Ultimately we are suppose to research the Bible and GOD’s teachings and make the TRUTH our own. That is our OWN – NOT Pastor Russell or the Watchtower Governing Body. The Bible teaches us “for freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1) This freedom is, of course, freedom from the bondage of sin. But also freedom of reason, justice and of love. The Watchtower organization does not have freedom of “reason, justice and of love.” It runs an organization of slavery, slavery to their beliefs, their teachings, their way of life… It’s their way or the highway! I chose the “highway” The highway to freedom of Christ!!!!
YOU are the slave here,,,and also the “evil” one.You can repeat as much as you want that you are the “original” BS…you are just an immitation nothing more.”For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
(2 Peter 2:18-22)
Thats my last comment..i dont want to post comments any more on here
75% number is plasmatic.It was claimed by an apostate book.Many original Bs have died before 1930s and many of new comers have joined the group ,some of them left afterwards,It is wrong to say that 75% of the ORIGINAL Bs left the Society.Many Bs in many countries stayed loyal to the Society
it seems to me,
That what Anonymous is doing is precisely what the Watchtower wants him to do, equate the Watchtower society with the Bible Students. He seems to be totally unaware of how the Bible Students were organize while Russell was expounding Bible truth. Even though many of the eccelsias had elected CTR as their “pastor,” they were antonymous. They weren’t bound to the Watchtower Society as Rutherford later imposed. They were entirely free to accept what came off the Society’s presses, or not. It was not their head.
So cutting their association with it when Rutherford started changing the teachings promoted by the Watchtower Society wasn’t apostasy. Quite the contrary. It was the Watchtower which started deviating from the truth, not they. a number of the ecclesias still around today don’t count their roots to those old ecclesias, they are those old ecclesias. Over the decades they haven’t deviated from the truth expounded by CTR. So they cannot legitimately be called apostate, however much the Society still whines about that and calls them the “evil slave.”
The Watchtower Society was a tool used by the founder of the Bible Student movement, not the master as the leaders of the Witnesses would have us think.
It helps to talk about these things sometimes as new ones are coming on all the time. This is a place, safe haven as it were for those that have been mistreated by the JW organization. Often our dear elders are the actual henchmen but they are a part of an order, a society of men bound by dogma, so they hold true to their office. While he appears to be right off the horizen Satan has snuck in and carried his sheep everywhere.
Many that come on this site are angry and are looking for a place to light. So we still welcome them. We have all been there and know how we fought the idea that we had to leave the org to find Christ. We don’t consider those persons enemies. If we come on too strong tell us please to lighten up as one commenter told me the other day. If they are on this site they too have come to recognize the GB is not to be obeyed at all cost. They have a mind of their own. We do not intend to repel but give a safe haven for conversation. Satan had men from the same father fighting, Israel and Judah. The Arabs and the Jews are still fighting to this day. I guess we will have to wait maybe until Millenium for BS & JW to get along in peace also and all we can do now is help the beaten up ones.
Agreed Sis. Jacqueline.
When I first came here I still harbored one bit of anger I just couldn’t seem to shake. But that was also about the time I got access to a wider group of Bible Student literature I didn’t have before, such as the Daily Manna. Some of what the Pastor wrote as quoted there and elsewhere finally did it for me. I’ll still tell the story to new ones so they know I understand. I will recount my experiences when I see apologists singing the “there’s nothing wrong in Jehovah’s organization” song. But the anger is gone, as it should be.
All I was doing where Anonymous was concerned was pointing out the flaws in his thinking as I saw them from this exchange. I sense some anger there, but I haven’t followed his posts that closely and thus can’t put a finger on it. What I can do is try to correct a misunderstanding of the historical facts.
Dupin I sense some anger also with anonymous. But I prayed over it because he has been on the site a number of times before. There is something eating him. I remember as I saw things wrong I tried to convince myself that I needed to stay for Jehovah’s sake. He would not be on this site if he was not in some way in pain or something. I just ry to look a little deeper. I tried to refute some of the sisters sayings when I first went with the BS. Them I saw the immense love those sisters were showing me. I just melted and cried. Dupin the Chicago class have some really elderly sisters whose minds are as sharp as tacks! I think something is going on and we want to be there for those that have escaped.
We have to present truth and the facts at all times. I was reflecting on myself and the time period that we are in now. I see and watch how the BS practice being kind yet powerful with the bible. They let it go sometimes and use love. That’s how they won me. It was their love for like Ken R says we almost believe the same things. Conversations bring out our flaws and good points I think. Most that speak up are going to be outspoken. The ones looking on won’t speak up as they feel they don’t have a defense. But they do, just to hear them say hi is enough.
Plus I know that at any given time there thousands looking at all of our comments. I know they are learning a lot.
I agree Sis. Jacqueline.
Anonymous, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you are not “Anonymous”….you are a Jehovah Witness.
Ana im proud of it
Anonymous, are you a “free” Jw? meaning can you study whatever you want and come to your own conclusions without fear of disipline?
Good for you Anonymous..good for you. If I can, I would just like to add this point, hoping you do not take offence, that is to say, I don’t feel that there is any merit or virtue in being a “proud” Jehovah Witness. Maybe a “humble” Jehovah’s Witness? But not a proud one.
Hello,
I would just kindly like to ask if anyone here happens to know which bible Charles Taze Russell used and quoted from in his watchtower articles and his other literature?
Thank you very much
Patrick
Hi Patrick and welcome! One of the more seasoned BS will answer your question I just want to say welcome. Jacqueline
No problem Jacqueline. Thank you.
Patrick – Brother Russell had many translations at his disposal. He appreciated the technical accuracy of Wilson’s Diaglott and Rotherham among others. However, he used the KJV (King James Version) more than any other. The KJV was the most commonly used version up to that time. Most people could best remember a verse as it was quoted from the KJV. The concordances and most commentaries used it as the base text from which to define and expand on words or comment on scriptures.
Thank you for such a broad and generous explanation Peter. You are very kind. I am truly indebted to you.
With much appreciation and gratitude
Patrick
Dear Peter, if I may I’d just like to also ask you which translation do you personally use yourself. I ask this because for a long time now I have been desperately looking for a bible to read that is a unbiased literal translation but also is reasonably readable too. Its just not easy though to find this balance. So I just wondered if you had any suggestions for me.
Again I thank you for your time and your willingness Peter. I sincerely appreciate and value it.
Yours humbly
Patrick
Hi Patrick, I think I am looking at Br. Peter in meeting on adobe connect, so he will answer. I just wanted to say I have the eight translation Bible. All eight translations are there for the Greek scriptures. It helped me to get the full flavor. The NIV Bible is assisted from Br. Jim Parkinson (& company). He was really careful in this late edition using info newly available. That’s just my little imput. Sincerely Jacqueline
Hi Patrick,
Yes, I too share your concern Patrick for I also for many years have searched for a bible that is as you say an “unbiased literal translation” (basically truthful) yet “readable”. But all we have is some old technically accurate bibles, but the catch with them is that they are written in old English. Which is fine if you want to be William shakespeare, but a horrifying nightmare if you genuinely want to understand it. Then you have these modern translations which are “readable” but the catch with them is that they are full of doctrinal falsehoods and riddled with religious bias. So you just can’t win.
Patrick – You can find some great information on Bible Translations by clicking here: I refer to dozens of translations and sadly they all have some bias in favor of their doctrinal perspective. My favorite translation for Old and New Testament technical accuracy is “Rotherham – The Emphasized Bible” which you can find at this link. Another great translation is the RVIC here: This is an effort by Jim Parkinson to make corrections to the American Revised Version based on the strongest manuscript evidence. Some software programs, like the Online Bible, can be installed on your computer and you can search by a Greek or Hebrew word. When you search by a Greek or Hebrew word, you can get a sense for how the Bible is using that word to cut through the bias.
As you know Patrick, we need to have faith and trust in the Bible. If we are correct on a doctrine all the scriptures on that topic will harmonize and seemingly conflicting scriptures will be honestly resolved. An example of harmony is that we are told in the Bible that “God is love” (1 John 4:8) and to “love your enemies” (Matt 5:44). Hence we find conflict in thinking that God created man, only so that the vast majority of them would be everlastingly tormented or destroyed. After all, wouldn’t that make God a hypocrite if he told us to love our enemies, yet He made such little effective effort to help them Himself. I hope this helps.
Thanks Peter I have heard much of what you say before, but I still appreciate your effort.
Thank you
PS
Stephen I now exactly what you mean, “sounding like William Shakespeare”. Thats so true! You end up sounding like your reading a script for a play when you read these old bibles. It just detracts from the bible and loses its seriousness. And the modern translations are equally discouraging for there lack of truth and integrity.
So thank you for your candid honest words Stephen. Most people are to afraid to say it as it is. Especially about the bible. So I appreciate your guts in going against the grain.
Take care
Patrick here is a scripture from the KJV Proverbs 11:14 “Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” These are not bible scholars or translators that I will quote but in it’s simpliest form this is how you can understand text. Break it down to it’s simpliest form first. No long range anything. These are some common people.
My 41yr (fireman-paramedic) says: “Hey dude, you need to get somebody to help you with that. That’s some deep stuff. Talk to some people, a whole lot of them. You can have big trouble if you make the wrong decision. Awright? You understand?
31 yr old female (teacher): Get a second and third opinion, please. Then sit down and discuss it with someone you trust.
36yr old (computer guy)Technically speaking I don’t make those types of decisions unless I consult with others in the department. A lot is at stake here, and we can go under if one person makes this decision.
ME- 63yrs: You need to get yourself a lawyer before making that decision and if you don’t like what he says go to another one and see if they are saying the same thing. Otherwise this can be costly.
Do you understand what the proverbist is saying now? Well you should if you didn’t before. Did these different translations so to speak hinder or help you.
It is going to depend on whether or not you want to do your own thing, and don’t want to hear any of these people. I hope you understand where I am coming from on this. By virtue of the fact you are asking, talking, God is picking at you.
PS: One more just chimed in: 37yr old male (Mechanical engineer) Before you make a decision that affects the whole company, we need to get everyone on board on this one. We need our sharpest minds before we proceed. Meeting at 3pm.
Oh,
A Sister sent me a copy of the book this article is about. I like it.
Thanks for understanding me Patrick .
No but what I want to add is this that my contention has always been why is it not possible for one of these “noble-minded” bible scholars to write an objective, unbiased and accurate translation that is written in plain easy to understand English. Why can they not do this? Why do we always have to depend on these old bibles for accuracy which poor ordinary people being the majority have a nightmare trying to read. Why in this so called sophisticated day and age is there yet no bible that speaks to all men . Something that everyone can understand? It just seems so wrong! Am I the only one who can see this? Please is there anyone else out there apart from you Patrick ,who can see what I see? Oh God!
Stephen and Patrick I was just thinking about both of your comments. I like talking frank, sometimes I have to curtail myself, but with you two I think I can just talk.
I seem to be hearing whether or not you can BELIEVE what is written in these various translations, also WHY the bible was written in the almost scripted manner that it is. Follow me on this please. My grandmother understood every word in the King James Bible. She almost spoke that way herself. LOL So somebody understood the old language, it was not foreign to them. That’s why you go back to the most original to get the flavor. Bible writers do try that, because each generation has it’s own language. My grandsons ages 9,5,3 texts completely without vowels. So someone understood the language. I have a niece that is Mensa and knows 7 major languages and understands old coptic english. But can’t understand the boys text messages. One reason is she wonders why they write that way and just can’t believe they are that capable of doing those complex text.
The Bible’s Message not style of writing is the problem. Strangely if you have faith that it is the word of God you can understand the words. The Author is the problem here. He is like Jesus who spoke only to his disciples in parables and others just didn’t get the point. He and the Author of the Bible knows how to get past the intellectual and get inside a person. They are unique, (psychologist do it also)(check out the series Lie To Me.)
Some think that it is a life or death issue here in understanding the Bible. It will be in the Millenium (according to the bible(:)). The language will be clear and pure easy to understand, as your everlasting life is at stake at that time.
It is a strange piece of writing that depends on faith. It is written in such a way that digging is required and persons like you two diggers will catch the attention of the author. You can talk to him and petition him and he can open your eyes. You see I have gone from door to door and witness little old eighty (80-90) year old ladies and men whip me with their understanding of what the writer is saying in the KING JAMES VERSION. Itis not so much the style of writing as it is the help you receive. It is a strange book indeed with almost mystical power to evade destruction. The many translations are a help, not a hinderance. It’s like hearing many points of views without being with the person. That Author no doubt is behind that also. He wants those that are willing now to dig and be ready to act, on his side in Millenium. Now you are frustrated, it shows, he has you attention!.
Watch out you just might get a little help in the form of the helper and see you can understand using maybe the eight translation. The translation isn’t as important as you think, if you have a few to compare. Pray.
Really the Bible is written for fools not the high and mighty.
PS. I couldn’t even see some words as a witness that I now realize the words are actually there. I only saw what I was told. So drop all preconceived thoughts and start with the New testament first. Get others thoughts on what they think is being said. We have a publication that says how to read the Bible and have it make sense. It will amaze you that there is a system: Topical is best except with the new testament you can just follow the script.
I appreciate your thoughtful answer Jacqueline you make some fair points. You said, quote’
“The many translations are a help, not a hinderance. It’s like hearing many points of views without being with the person.”
I understand what you mean but I think of Ephesians 4:5,6 where it says;
“There is one Lord, one way to believe, one baptism.There is one God and Father of us all.”
I would add to that verse and One exclusive and truthful bible translation . I just feel it makes more sense to have one bible that accurately and honestly reflects the thoughts of God, as opposed to many bible translations with “many points of view” which end up creating confusion and thousands and thousands of religions. I don’t know, that’s just the way I see it, maybe I am wrong to feel this way I don’t know but I do understand your perspective too. Thank you for it.
Patrick I get what you are saying. But let us think this through. What LANGUAGE would we use? You see you will lose something in the translation, for no two fit perfectly into the other. Now one language is happy the others are not. See the thread, the same Author, our father Jehovah prevents this. He has a Grand Plan that has thought it through.
Gen.11:5-8 talks about a time when there was one exclusive language and vs6 says: After that Jehovah said: “Look! They are one people and there is one language for them all, and this is what they start to do.” It won’t help the case much for it is in the genes not the fact that there are so many translations. One could chose to pick a few well trusted ones. Br. Peter gave info for that.
Ephe. 4:5.6 One Lord, master, ruler governor, Jesus Christ. One Father, Jehovah. One faith. Faith in Jesus. But one exclusive bible translation? Isn’t it strange Patrick how one man views the many as bothersome and another views the many as a challenge, a great association to have some many thoughts! In the dark ages they would have jumped thru fire just to have a page in coptic languge. They would have walked with bloodied feet to find someone that knew the language. Martin Luther, Tyndale all the common people would glory in this day that you are in! Count your blessings, count them one by one, count your many blessings and see what God has done. Also my dear Brother, friend, loved one of God, Alexander Pope said “Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread.”
Jas 2:19″You believe there is one God do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.”
The fallen angels are students of God’s word and a believer of it. he has learned that every word of God is true. Yet he doesn’t not assign blame to him. He wouldn’t.
Patrick have you thought about the fact that NOTHING HAPPENS except by Jehovah’a permission? If he permits it.
Jas4:10 say “Humble yourselves in the eyes of Jehovah, and he will exalt you. ” Luke 14:11 “For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted.” To have holy spirit help you to understand one of the translation would be an exaltation for you, don’t you think?
In an effort to be “Frank and Honest” we need whe dealing with God to walk in backwards with our heads bent to the ground.
Ps.86:15 says Jehovah is a God graciouys and merciful, slow in anger and abundant in loving kindness. If you read the preceding and following verses you will see he is able to help you understand even the worse translation of the Bible. It is not about the translation, perhaps Patrick it might be your faith in God that is for some reason lacking here.
Persons during the dark ages would probably die from a heartattack if they had this many Bible and Bible translations in their own tongues. Oh, the blessings. This is not said to be judgemental of you Patrick, because when I say your first and subsequent comments to Br. Peter Isaid. “My what a fine young respectful man that is. I hope my tree sons are like that. I waited on Br. Peter to answer you so I could see your response. You might be older but you sound younger or have been disappointed in some way. You sound like a sheep of God. I can’t see you, but I can hear you. I might be wrong but I think you are talking to God to help you understand. 2Corinthians 12: tells of a chilling example of what God can do in showing man his truths. You won’t know if it is a dream or real. Thankfully tho he has given you something tangible that he has preserved through fire sometimes. Don’t turn your nose up at it.
I detect you won’t be offended, I just want you to accept him pulling you and not miss out on this. Try some down home earnest prayer with thanksgiving and see if you can find a few translations that will hellp you. On this site Br. Peter trys with the help of Holy Spirit to put subjects with proof text to help. We are like domestic animals we like to be around each other. We like to hear what each other have to say. A dog is the only thing I know about that loves someone else more than he loves himself. And Jehovah is his creator, he gave him a part of himself. Take care my dear brother.
You said Jacqueline “That’s why you go back to the most original to get the flavor.”
Well I don’t think the king James bible is the most original bible to get any flavor from. The king James bible was written in a period of history that reflects the culture and thinking of England not the culture and thinking of the Hebrews or the Christian Greek scriptures.
I do not understand why people think the King James bible and its old poetic English language has any relation to the Hebrew or ancient Greek language and culture of the bible. Very puzzling.
Also you said “The Bible’s Message not style of writing is the problem”.
I disagree. I personally think the style of writing is equally if not more so a problem than the message is.
“Strangely if you have faith that it is the word of God you can understand the words.”
You think so Jacqueline? Like most religious people you advise prayer. Fair enough but what generally ends up happening when we pray is that we all come to different understandings and conclusions regarding certain verses, passages and “words”. We all end up contradicting one another as we all get different answers to our prayers even though we have all asked the same question about a certain word or verse. I find that quite “strange” myself. So either there is not much consistency with the holy spirit answering our prayers or we are just simply deluding ourselves. Or both.
Stephen, I am sorry I seemed to imply the KJV is the oldest. I meant as far back in time as we can get the writing. (Dead Sea Scrolls etc)Having a witness background you know I have that covered, sorry.(:)
Prayer is strange indeed, I admit. I may pray for God to make me a better person and another may do so at the same time. His answer for me should be different as the other person and I need help in different ways, not robots, we are different.
Does he answer all prayers? Not in our time frame all the time. Sometimes you just don’t need what you ask for to Paul he said at 2Cor.12:7-9 my undersired kindness is sufficient for you, when he asked to have the thorn removed in his flesh. He used that weakness to make known Christ. Paul was comtemptible to look at but was made powerful when he spoke about JESUS. And there lies the problem, at this time it is not all about us. If you woke up this morning on the top side of the grass you should say HALLELUJAH!!! Your prayer my friend, although you didn’t ask him last night before you went to sleep, he answered it! I bet you didn’t say Lord let me die tonight and not wake up. Prayers UNSPOKEN ARE ANSWERED!
I accept that faith is not totally neccesary to understand the bible for little children even recite and understand verses. Proverbs is quoted everyday by people. And Jesus simple sayings can be grasped by demons even, yet they don’t have faith, so you have me on that. But often when a person blames God it is because of men sinning. (there is a scripture on that, can’t find). He is not the cause but the solution. I am not a religious person that just parrots something. God does not need my help in defending him. But I am going to do it anyway because he is my friend. If you don’t, won’t or can’t wait on him (and I don’t know what is going on in your life my brother) then try to stop partaking of his many blessings and you won’t like it I guarantee. Stop drinking his water, eating his food breathing his air. If you can’t respect him why are you using his stuff? Because he is your father and he freely gives it to you. What is your real problem? We would like to hear it here and in love respond. You are thrashing out at the air get specific and many here can help hopefully. Maybe we are being used as an answer to seemingly unanswered prayers. I wait for your answer and others will feel free to chime in here. I might not see your answer right away, I have a patient due and need to complete some paperwork first. Take care my brother Stephen. Jacqueline
Stephen and Patrick – The Amplified Bible is a translation will sometimes translate the sames words two or three different ways. This helps to give a broader understanding of the Greek or Hebrew word since there is sometimes not an exact English equivalent. I feel well helped by doing searches on a particular Greek or Hebrew word to get the sense in which a Bible writer is using that word. I feel that I have usually had satisfying results. In the end you can’t be too concerned with what others think or that we do not all come to the same conclusions. In all aspects of life, politics, health, science (not just religion), we hear people making confident, emphatic, positive statements, even though they seem to have very little knowledge of the topic they are talking about. I must admit, I haven’t had time to deeply investigate health. Some people prefer pharmaceutical drugs and other feel nutritional supplements are best. I lean more in the direction of the later, but I can’t back up that point of view with compelling data that objectively considers both sides. So it’s best that I remain quiet and hear what others have to say. On the other hand, I have spent over 40 years studying the Bible and feel very confident about some of basic conclusions. For example, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to search out the use of the word “Hell” in the Bible to see what it means. For example, in the Hebrew, you have one word “Sheol” which in most translations is inconsistently translated either Hell and Grave, depending on which best fits the translators bias. Once this simple fact is uncovered it is easy enough to see that “Sheol” is describing the grave, oblivion or simply the condition of death. Any connection with fire is easy enough to resolve since there are clearly many examples where fire is used in the Bible as symbolic of destruction. The problem is not that the Bible is so difficult to figure out as that very few are willing to put in the incredible effort to do so. I like to recommend the “Divine Plan of the Ages,” as that book puts the whole Bible in perspective and helps everything to beautifully and harmoniously fall into place.
“God does not need my help in defending him. But I am going to do it anyway because he is my friend. If you don’t, won’t or can’t wait on him then try to stop partaking of his many blessings and you won’t like it I guarantee. Stop drinking his water, eating his food breathing his air. If you can’t respect him why are you using his stuff? Because he is your father and he freely gives it to you. What is your real problem?”
Woe! Woe! You sound like you got some serious issues Jacqueline. It would appear that you have taken offense at something I have said. I think you need to give yourself a break. Regain your mental balance. I am so sorry for overwhelming you with my questions. I should have been more considerate of you. I am very sorry for causing you so much emotional distress. You are obviously in a dark place at the moment and so I apologise for my persistent reasoning. I hope you feel better soon.
Christian love and compassion
Stephen
Stephan thanks for your consideration. I wanted to stop for a moment and see that God is indeed good. It seemed to me you are on one hand recognizing this but on the other not accepting that this the same hearer of prayer. My point is, try and take a look beyond the translations issue and focus on why this is seemingly such a problem. When really we can go stright to him and talk thru Jesus. Some can’t read nor do they have a Bible in their langusge.
Forgive me if I sounded a little attackey (is that a word?) but I wanted to shake you out of your comfort zone of blame on the hear of prayer and the Helper, holy spirit. Forgive me if I came on strong, please. Let’s start over again. Now on the matter of prayer, may I ask if this is a particular problem or is there maybe an underlying concern with God’s helping mankind in general?
I am not sure Jacqueline if Proverbs 11:14 could be used in an attempt to justify many bible translations of the Word of God to give us “many points of view”. I believe the principle found in that proverb has a general application to imperfect men and there relation to one another as opposed to promoting many diverse productions of Gods Word for the luxury of giving “many points of view” in effect causes uncertainty and confusion.
Once more I thank you for your comment Peter . Your advise for choosing a bible translation is more than reasonable and also shows your experience on the subject. You strike me as a very wise and balanced man. Your earnest endeavour coupled with your keen insights into bible translation are to be admired and respected.
Well it has been a real joy talking to you and an honour and privilege listening to you.
So I would like to thank you graciously for all your time and effort and to now bid you farewell.
Genuinely
Patrick
No problem Jacqueline its okay.
Thanks.
Dupin, I feel Jesus was dealing with this when he said in the model prayer. Matt. 6″Our father in heaven hollowed be thy NAME. He was I feel (just my little opinion)telling them to call him by his name. Not doubt he told them what it was.
John 17:26 “I have made your NAME KNOWN to them”. Indicating to me there was a problem with not just who God was (because they knew as Jews) but his name was not being addressed. He could have said “I have told them all about you.” Jews had many experiences with God as Allmighty, divine etc. But his name it seems wasn’t mentioned.
Yes, Jacqueline,
There was a bit of a problem among the people in that regard. Given Jesus’ teachings, though, it is hard to imagine the Apostles and the other writers having the same superstition which had developed among the people. We also know that the OT manuscripts they had available to them had the divine name, including the LXX. The practice was not to remove the name from the scriptures even if people may not have been voicing it. So it should at least show up in quotations of the OT where it occurs. It is only when we get to manuscripts made by Christians of the LXX that God’s name disappears.
Welcome aboard Mr. Landman:
I don’t know what the opinion of the administrators might be, however I am going to tell you my own. Personally, I think God’s name was probably in the original text of the NT, but removed later on. But that is my personal opinion based on several of Jesus’ statements and the quotations of a number of OT texts which had the name in them. It is hard for me to imagine the writers of the NT, who were mostly Jewish would have left the divine name out, especially in view of the praying that his name be “hallowed” as per our Lord’s instructions in his model prayer (Matt. 6:9).
Unfortunately for the translator the name was removed and any attempt to “restore” it to its rightful place can only rest on a foundation of speculation and theory. God didn’t see fit to preserve any copies with his name in it, so he seems to be content with it’s representation in the name of his son, Jesus, for the present. So I would stick with the text we have and not try to meddle with it, however good my intentions might be.
There is no evidence to support the usage of the Holy Name of God, the Father, i.e. Jehovah, YaHVeH, YeHVaH or YaHVaH in the N.T.; but isn’t it better to use a propper Name for the Creator than a mere human title?
There is no good in criticizing the use of the Name, as it would be more righteous to use God’s divine Name in stead of the Greek kurios, (or lord). Thus, the fact that none of the oldest manuscripts in existence use the proper name of God, does not mean that God changed His view and He will not be cross with us if we use His Name rightfully in Scripture.
Who is the Gr., κυριου, i.e. kurios {koo’-ree-os}; anyhow, as it is derived from the Gr., κυρου, i.e. kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.
Thank you.