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In 1927, Joseph Franklin Rutherford declared Christmas to be of pagan origin, and the following year its celebration by Rutherford’s Bible Students was condemned as supporting “Satan’s organization” (The Golden Age, December 14, 1927, “The Origin of Christmas”, pp 178–79. 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, 1974, p. 147)
Although Brother Russell acknowledged that Jesus was not born on December 25, he urged the brethren not to “quibble” about the date, but rather to join “in celebrating the grand event…” (Zion’s Watch Tower; December 1, 1904, p. 3468 Society Reprints.) As a result, Bethel workers decorated the dining hall for a festive dinner each year. However stern Judge Rutherford decided he would quibble. Pointing to the supposed pagan roots of certain Christmas customs, he instructed the office staff to quit observing the day, so that there was NO Christmas dinner served in 1927 or thereafter. To persuade the brethren to abandon the holiday, Rutherford published a hard-hitting article in the December 12, 1928 issue of the Golden Age.
PAGAN ORIGINS?
Christmas does not have pagan origins, but there were winter celebrations that were pagan. Christians are not celebrating a pagan holiday because the pagan holiday was the Saturnal and we are not worshipping the god of Saturn. All of these ancient meanings with their beliefs and associations were lost long ago. When Friday roles around we don’t think about Fria, the goddess of love. On Saturday we don’t think about it as Saturn’s day, but as our day off.
OTHER CELEBRATIONS
Before the time of Jesus and the Apostles, the Jews adopted two new celebrations – Hanukkah (beginning 139 BC) and Purim (began prior to 400 BC). Jesus and the Apostles never advised against these celebrations. As a matter of fact, the Apostle Paul said, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—” (Col 2:16 NAS95)
Did you know that some pagan religions practiced baptism? Does not make Christian baptism a sin. Of course not. The practice of baptism in pagan religions seems to have been based on a belief in the purifying properties of water. In ancient Babylon, according to the Tablets of Maklu, water was important as a spiritual cleansing agent in the cult of Enke, lord of Eridu. In Egypt, the Book of Going Forth by Day contains a treatise on the baptism of newborn children, which is performed to purify them of blemishes acquired in the womb.
“Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.” (Romans 14:4-6 NAS95)
Just because the world distorts something, that does not make it evil, as long as we avoid the distortions and use it as God intended or in a way that does not go contrary to God’s character and holiness. A good illustration is the beauty of sexual love within the bonds of marriage.
“To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:5 NASB).
CHRISTMAS TREE
In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.
The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the ancient Middle Eastern practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them. Of course, these were not really Christmas trees, because Jesus was not born until centuries later, and the use of Christmas trees was not introduced for many centuries after his birth. Apparently, in Jeremiah’s time the “heathen” would cut down trees, carve or decorate them in the form of a god or goddess, and overlay it with precious metals. Some Christians currently feel that this Pagan practice was similar enough to our present use of Christmas trees that this passage from Jeremiah can be used to condemn both:
Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (King James Version).
The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, “Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.” This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the “decorated tree” that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world. 10:8-10 also confirms this, where the wooden idols are contrasted with the LORD, who is the true and living God.
We think that the problem with Christmas is not the forgotten pagan celebrations which occurred around the same time, rather it is the over commercialization and replacing Jesus with Santa Claus.
CONSCIENCE
We are NOT saying that the Christian SHOULD celebrate Christmas, but rather that a Christian CAN celebrate Jesus’ birth at Christmas time. We believe it is a matter of conscience. If it bothers your conscience or if it is not about celebrating Jesus birth, then do not participate.
1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 14 show that we should not behave in a way that stumbles our brother to violate his conscience. Paul argues that it is okay to eat meat offered to idols. After all, it is just meat. However, Paul indicates that if it stumbles our brother, we should refrain.
Now isn’t meat offered to idols related to pagan worship? And yet Paul says it is okay to eat it.
In our own case, probably we are buying products from companies that publicly support immoral and anti-biblical views. The point is that if we are not engaging in pagan worship or immortal acts, etc. then we are okay.
JESUS BIRTHDAY
The religious rulers in Jesus day were overly legalistic creating a multitude of additional rules above and beyond the Law of Moses. For us there is the same danger of such an intense devotion to the details of the Bible in such a way that we miss the spirit and essential thrust of a passage. Mountains are made out of mole hills and the truth is missed. One is busy counting the number of letters in a sentence rather than listening to its instruction. Jesus said, “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!” (Matt 23:24 NASV)
There is scriptural precedent for commemorating and remembering the birth of Christ. This is in keeping with the events that occurred around the time of Christ’s birth These include:
1. The appearance of the angel of the Lord with the glory of the Lord to announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds (Lk. 2:10-12).
2. The response of the angels at the announcement of Christ’s birth (Lk. 2:13-14).
3. The actions of the shepherds who left their flocks to go and see which was nothing short of a celebration (Lk. 2:15-20).
4. And the arrival of the men from the east bearing gifts as much as a year to two years later (Matt. 2:1-12).
EXCESSIVE RULES
The problem is that to create rules about what holidays that Christians cannot observe is none of our business and a way a ruling body of men can gain control over a group. If the Bible does not forbid something, should we? Does this sound like the rule making of the Scribes and Pharisees by which they controlled people? Matt 23:24 (NASV) “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!”
Mark 7 (NASV) “7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
We should not be adding extra rules and burdens to God’s people that are not laid out in the Bible.
At the council in Jerusalem, the Apostle Peter did not want to burden the Gentile brethren and recommended they only avoid immorality and that which would stumble the potential Jewish converts.
Acts 15:19-21
19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
I am not saying for example that we should celebrate birthdays or Christmas. However on what basis can we condemn other Christians it they want to celebrate? I don’t know of any Christians who worship the Christmas tree. I think the problem is that the holiday tends to be too commercialized and secular. However why not show others by example how to worship Jesus properly, by celebrating Jesus in reading the Biblical account to the family and children, not in promoting Santa Claus at Christmas time? If that bothers you, then don’t do it. But why should we judge and condemn others who consider it a time of remembering Jesus and following the example of gift giving by the wise men and by Jesus gift of his life to mankind?.
JESUS RESURRECTION
Since in ancient times, Easter celebrated the goddess of fertility Ishtar. However, does that make it a sin for Christians to remember Jesus’ resurrection on the Sunday after the Memorial?
There is, of course, the New Testament precedent for believers meeting together on Sunday. In essence this is a celebration of the Lord’s resurrection. The early church automatically did this, but Scripture does not command us to do so. In fact, the early church at first met daily and took the Lord’s Supper daily, but we don’t do that today. Why not? Because these are not binding. We are not under the Law. Believers meet on Sunday because of its significance and because the early church set a precedent for it, but it was never commanded in the Bible. Believers did it out of love and adoration for the risen Savior.
The point is this: If the early church could celebrate the resurrection without a specific command from God, only the spirit of legalism or the letter of the law would forbid the celebration of Christ’s birth as a special season of joy and adoration. Ultimately, the issue is not the season, it’s the attitude and reason behind it and the distortion of it. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.
We do not know the exact date Jesus of Jesus birth, although we think it was approximately October 1. So we could not really celebrate his exact birth date and know it for sure. Interestingly, December 25th would be the approximate date of Jesus conception, so it is certainly a time that relates to his birth.
Those who want to celebrate, they can set an example by placing the focus where it belongs, on our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
“But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”” (Lu 2:10-14 NAS95)
David – Thanks. Your examples of the former 7th Day Adventist who would not drink wine, the fornicator and the Trinitarian are not good examples of what I was referring to.
The fornication example you provide for disfellowship, would not apply to doctrinal differences. Disfellowship would apply for example as in the following text.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB) “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
What about someone who believes blood transfusions are okay, that the Great Crowd will be in heaven, that is okay to celebrate Christ’s birth or that those who die in Armageddon will be resurrected? Is it okay to shun, disfellowship and break up families when the baptized member disagrees with the organization on these views, but is only occasionally expressing these thoughts and not pushing his ideas?
Peter, I am well familiar with the Bible texts you cited, but I do not think they apply to those who deliberately teach false non-biblical teachings and those who support festivals that have pagan origins. As I mentioned to Chuck, in an earlier post I sent, there may be individuals who may express a different view on a relatively minor issue, but that individual will certainly not be expelled. You cite Romans 14:5 how one person sees one day more sacred than another. But the context of what the apostle Paul was writing had to deal with the holy days, such as the Sabbath, which some Jewish converts felt they needed to keep. It obviously had nothing to do with pagan worship and there related festivals. The same is true with Col. 2:16, it was referring to the festivals to given by Jehovah God to Jews, as well as the Sabbath. Surely it was not referring to the Festival of the Sun-god Mithras. Surely 1st Christians would expelled one who endorsed those pagan worship festivals. Christians did not yoke with unbelievers nor did they touch the unclean things associated with pagan worship. (2 Cor. 6:14-18).
As to blood transfusions, the 1st century Christians decreed, that while they did not have to keep the Sabbath nor become circumsized, etc. But they had to abstain from IDOLATRY, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, UNBLED FOOD, and YES ABSTAIN from BLOOD. Not abstaining from blood is equivalent to participating in idolatry or sexual immorality or eating unbled food. So it may lead to one being disfellowshipped from the congregation. (Acts. 15:19-20, 28-29; 21:25) Regarding what the apostles taught and those that rejected it, the Bible says at 2 John 9-11 – “9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (ESV). I believe what the Bible says. And please believe, elders and other will try their best to persuade one to accept the truth of the Bible. If one rejects the biblical teachings or teachings, then they have no choice but to remove the wicked one from the congregation. But even when they are told that they are being expelled, they will still be urged to repent, adjust their thinking and come back to the congregation. Even some who were expelled for apostasy, have repented, adjusted their thinking after re-studying the Bible closely, and have come back. Although it is relatively rare, some have been expelled for opposing what the Bible teaches. But happily, some have repented and come back to the truth. It like the nation of Israel which at times fell to false worship, but then came to their senses, and repented and came back to Jehovah. The Christian congregation welcomes back with opens arms all those that have repented. It like the prodigal son returning back.
David – Let’s speak man to man and elder to elder. You speak with authority. Tell me honestly, are you an elder? Do you work out of Bethel? What is your position or title? What do you hope to accomplish on a Bible student website? What is your purpose here?
Before I respond to you, let’s cover this ground.
David,
David, You said, “…there may be individuals who may express a different view on a relatively minor issue, but that individual will certainly not be expelled.” Can you provide at least three examples of what the JW Organization considers relatively minor issues?
PAGAN WORSHIP FESTIVALS
You said, “Surely 1st Christians would expelled one who endorsed those pagan worship festivals.”
David – You are comparing apples with oranges. Celebrating Jesus’ birth has nothing to do with pagan worship. Pagan customs associated at that time of year are long dead. You are actually referring to real pagan worship festivals of the first century. When I drive past my neighbor’s home, they are not bowing down and worshiping their Christmas tree or making offerings to pagan gods. They may not be worshipping Jesus either, however the point is that today’s secular or religious Christmas celebration is not pagan worship. It can be criticized for materialism and replacing Jesus with Santa and other stories to distract us from the greatest gift ever given, our Savior. However, pagan worship is a different issue altogether.
Even the Apostle Paul did not expel these, though he did reason and plead with them.
Galatians 4:8-11 (Weymouth) “8 But at one time, you Gentiles, having no knowledge of God, were slaves to gods which in reality do not exist. 9 Now, however, having come to know God—or rather to be known by Him—how is it you are again turning back to weak and worthless rudimentary notions to which you are once more willing to be enslaved? 10 You scrupulously observe days and months, special seasons, and years. 11 I am alarmed about you, and am afraid that I have perhaps bestowed labour upon you to no purpose.”
Of course such brothers attending the congregation would not be elected elder or deacon or given any service (in my opinion) if they did “scrupulously observe” pagan days.
Paul was alarmed (and we would be to) that the brothers were going back to observing “days and months, special seasons, and years” associated with “Gentile” “gods.” THERE IS NO EVIDENCE HERE THAT PAUL HAD THESE BROTHERS EXPELLED FROM THE CONGREGATION. He simply reasoned and pleaded with them, allowing reason and the Holy Spirit to do its work. Jehovah is not calling Congregations to heaven, but rather individuals who will shine forth as examples and lights of truth, even when other brothers falter.
TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING
You said, “Christians did not yoke with unbelievers nor did they touch the unclean things associated with pagan worship. (2 Cor. 6:14-18).” Yes, the elders should admonish the brothers and sisters in the congregations against such behavior. Certainly, these brethren would not be elected as servants or leaders in the congregation. However, it is not specifically discussing disfellowship. As a matter of fact, notice the first verse.
2 Cor 6:14 (NWT) “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?”
Are JW spouses who are unequally yoked with unbelievers disfellowshipped? Are they made to divorce their spouse as Ezra commanded the people of Israel (Ezra 10:3, 11, 18)? Of course not. I am not saying that disfellowship could not apply in the context of verses 2 Cor. 6:14-18. However, we need to look at what the particular issue is and what other Bible verses have to say about it.
DO NOT RECEIVE HIM INTO YOUR HOME
David, you said, “10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (ESV). I believe what the Bible says.”
Let’s look at the context to see who John is talking about.
2 John 7, 9 (NWT) “For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist… Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.”
The context is talking about one who is a “deceiver” who “does not remain in the teaching of the Christ.” Okay, so these were once in the Truth, but rejected that Jesus came in the flesh – like the Gnostics of that time. Verse 9 says that he “does not remain in the teaching,” which implies to me that he has already left the congregation and John advises that they not greet him or receive him into their house. Good council. However, this is not talking about a member of the congregation who has a difference of opinion on a less serious matter.
BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS
David – You said that, “Not abstaining from blood is equivalent to participating in idolatry or sexual immorality or eating unbled food. So it may lead to one being disfellowshipped from the congregation.”
Interestingly, this commandment was first given to Noah in Genesis 9:4 (NASV) “you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” So this rule extends beyond the law and we suggest two reasons:
1) Blood was the life of the beast (Duet 12:23), and this life was in a sense sacred since it was to be offered to God as an atonement for sin.
2) Although blood in the heart, vessels, and so on is essential for life, when drank it is toxic and can kill you.
However another reason for the Apostles including this prohibition is understanding how offended the Jews would be if permitted. We saw this in Jesus’ experience.
John 6 (NASV) “56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him… 60 ¶ Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” … 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.”
Let’s take a look at what the Law of Moses said. It instructed the Israelites to avoid eating or drinking blood. Leviticus 17:14 states: “Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.” Also, Moses wrote that the Israelites could eat animals like deer or gazelle, but concerning their consumption, he wrote: “Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it on the earth like water” (Deuteronomy 12:16).
All related texts in the Old Testament deal specifically with consumption by mouth of large quantities of blood from an animal. The physical processes of the body in receiving human blood into the veins and consuming large quantities of animal blood that would go to the stomach are vastly different from a blood transfusion in which matched human blood is injected into the veins of another human to aid in healing. To argue that it is better to abstain from a blood transfusion and die for Jehovah’s sake goes beyond “what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6).
Interestingly, we see a symbolic blood transfusion so to speak in the tabernacle. On the Day of Atonement, the Bullock, representing Jesus was slain with its blood sprinkled for Aaron’s house (the Priesthood). This represents Christ’s blood providing the Ransom for the Anointed Little Flock during the Gospel Age since Pentecost. Next the blood of the goat (the 144,000 bride of Christ) is sprinkled for the people. This represents Christ’s ransom sacrifice (which was used for the Anointed during the Gospel Age), transferred from the Little Flock to benefit the World of Mankind in the Paradise Earth Kingdom. So in a sense there is a spiritual blood transfusion from Christ (Bullock) to the Anointed (goat) during the Gospel Age, then to the World of Mankind in the Paradise Earth Kingdom.
At any rate, whether you like that illustration or not, science was never advanced enough for there to be such a thing as a blood transfusions in Biblical days. Hence the Bible is silent on the subject. To take scriptures about drinking blood and relating that to blood transfusions cannot be demonstrated with scriptural evidence. It seems to me quite dangerous to unnecessarily force such a doctrine which has resulted in the death of countless JWs, leaving living family members to grieve over a death that was easily avoided.
CONGREGATION SHOULD FEEL SAFE, HAPPY AND JOYFUL
Colossians 3:12-17 (NASV) “12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.”
What makes you think I was putting the Jehovah’s Witnesses IN COMPANY with the other churches? I was merely pointed out the criteria that the PEW research think tank used in conducting THEIR survey. I had nothing to with the PEW’s decision of the criteria they decided to use. And surely you must know that the Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses are different from the other groups. In fact, in fact, IN FACT, that survey clearly shows that the Witnesses pray more, read their Bible more regularly, share their faith a lot more, than the other groups that were included in that PEW survey. And you surely must know, that unlike the other groups we preach the Kingdom of God, we preach that Jesus is truly the only-begotten Son of God, we teach that God is a Uni-personal being- just One Person, we don’t take the name of God out of our Bible translations, we believe in the decree of not only abstaining from fornication but also from blood as stated in Acts 15:19,20,28, we believe that the earth will be converted to a paradise, with the meek inheriting it (Matt. 5:5), we avoid pagan religious festivals like the first century Christians who never even heard of Christmas and avoided the birthday celebrations to the Mithras god which was quite popular in Rome. We believe a little flock will inherit the heavenly Kingdom and that a great crowd and millions, who will be resurrected, will inherit the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom, living forever in paradise earth (Ps. 37:10, 11, 29; 2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 11:6-9; Isa 65:17-25; Luke 23:43) I can go on and on, but in short, we are different from most churches and our teachings reflect are the same teachings of the 1st century Christian congregation. We are not in company with the worldly churches, nor do we follow the teachings of MEN. Instead we follow the teachings of the Bible, Jesus and his apostles.
Churches claim to teach the truth, but none really teach the good news of God’s Kingdom on a global basis. Who are known to preach and comfort millions with the good news of the Kingdom, and knock on people doors, with millions of books, Bibles, magazines and other media proclaiming the Truth? The prophecy of Matt. 24:14 says it would be a worldwide witness, a great work, that will be done. Mark 13:10 says the good news first must be PREACHED to ALL NATIONS and then the final end will come. Who are teaching the good news of the Kingdom, without any false confusing doctrines such as the Trinity or hellfire? Who are proclaiming not only the name of Jesus, but also the name of the Highest, Jehovah God? Romans 10:9-16 says in part “14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” And then adds “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, heir words to the ends of the world.” (ESV) I think only Jehovah’s Witnesses are fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus. Where do millions first hear that the soul dies? Where do millions first hear that the trinity is a false doctrine, and when the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, it really means Jesus is the Son of God? From whom do millions hear of the Kingdom of God that will bring blessings to all of humankind? It is from the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Interesting, if you get a copy of the latest edition of the book Operation World, which appears to published by Evangelicals, at least 5 times in their own publication they admit the Witnesses are much more active and in some cases they are more Witnesses than Evangelicals in certain parts of the world. Witnesses may be a relatively small group, compared to other groups, but their voice is heard SHOUTING all over the earth, teaching the Bible truths. And they are not calling attention to themselves. They cite John 17:3 and help people come to know the only true God, Jehovah, and the one he sent forth, his Son Jesus Christ who will reign as king in God’s Kingdom. They are an association organized to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom and have done so effectively, and will continue to do so in greater numbers as the end of this age or system of things approaches.
As the light of the truth or understanding of the truth grows, they have continued to preach. The fundamental Bible teachings have also remained the same (no Trinity, God’s name, Jesus really the Son of God, soul mortal, etc), although as the light of understanding grew we rejected certain things. We do know that Russell taught many truths, but he was wrong is saying the Great Pyramid of Egypt was 2nd witness.
Chuck, you know what my point of view is of Christmas. I wrote and quoted extensively from secular sources that prove that it was not originally celebrated by the Christians, as they did not touch the “unclean things” that was associated with pagan worship. That is why Rutherford and those associates with him decided to stop celebrating it. In my opinion, he made the right decision.
I recently spoke to a college student, who was doing a research project and paper on the origin of Christmas, and she said her mind was blown away at the pagan associations of the holiday. And we got into a very interesting discussion with her. She appears to agree to now agree that it should not be celebrated. She says she attends Methodist church meetings every now and then, but would like to learn more about the Bible. So even before we stated our view on Christmas, here is one person who sees the light.
I accept what the Bible teaches at 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, and will refuse to touch anything that is unclean with pagan worship origins “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15What accord has Christ with Belial?b Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you.”
To answer your other question, I have not come across any teachings as taught the Witnesses that contradict what the Bible says. Like most of my spiritual brothers, we read the Bible daily and like the Bereans of the past, we make sure what we are taught is based in the Bible. There may be some individuals that may disagree on a minor issue, but that does that mean he or she will be expelled from the congregation, as long as he or she does not stress his or her point of view. I have met a few brothers that are not 100% in agreement with a certain teaching or the way it is explained. For instance, one brother said he believes at least some of those who died in Sodom and Gomorah will be resurrected, but the official position is that Jesus used a hyperbole, and it appears they were destroyed forever. He made his point of view publically available; he was not disfellowshipped. In any case, he believes the Christian Congregation teaches the truth, except for that one item. It is to a certain extent a minor point, and was not removed from the congregation for his point of view. He agrees that we basically have and teach the truth, and will not leave because of one minor point. Even a WT article not too long discussed how some may understand something slightly different, but do are humble to wait to see if clarifications are made in the future. In either case, the basic truths of the Bible always remain the same, and I believe that there is only one group of Christian who are teaching those truths far and wide throughout the earth, and, thus fulfilling, the prophecy that Jesus spoke about in Matt. 24:14.
Jacqueline, you truly put a smile on my face!
Peter,
It is true. The Christian Congregation does all it can to avoid the break-up of the family. It is rare that a family breaks-up among the true Christians. Most are united. There are cases when a wife studies with the Witnesses and then the husband leaves her and her children when they take a stand for the Truth. Is it her fault that the husband left her for leaving the family?
You ask if someone openly upholds a doctrine that we do not agree with, why should we expel him? Is that not what the Bible says? There may be a member of the congregation that may not agree with drinking alcoholic beverages (perhaps a former 7th Day Adventist or a former member of a conservative Baptist Church). He or she may express their opinion that they do not feel it is right or that it bothers their conscience to do so. That person will not get expelled. He or she will may agree with everything else, but disagrees with that one point. The elders will help explain to the individual that the Bible does allow one to drink wine in moderation, but if the individual does not want to drink then it is OK, as long as he or she does not try enforce it has a law in the congregation. That individual would not get expelled. I in fact knew of a case of a recent convert, a former 7th Day Adventist, who expressed the opinion that all alcoholic beverages should be avoided, but he was not expelled on the case that she had a weak conscience. She is still an active member of the congregation, because she accepts everything else.
Now, there can be a case that someone now believes in the Trinity. And wants to teach that as truth. Elders will do there very best to help that person see again the truth of the Bible, but if one persists, then he or she will face expulsion. The Bible says in 2 John 1:7-11 – “7For many deceivers have gone out into the world—men who do not acknowledge Jesus as Christ who has come in human nature. Such a one is ‘the deceiver’ and ‘the anti-Christ.’ 8Keep guard over yourselves, so that you may not lose the results of your good deeds, but may receive back a full reward. 9No one has God, who instead of remaining true to the teaching of Christ, presses on in advance: but he who remains true to that teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If any one who comes to you does not bring this teaching, do not receive him under your roof nor bid him Farewell. 11He who bids him Farewell is a sharer in his evil deeds.” (WEY). Those who teach apostate teachings and willfully practice sin must be removed from the congregation, and we will not associate with them. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 5:9-11 9I wrote to you in that letter that you were not to associate with fornicators; 10not that in this world you are to keep wholly aloof from such as they, any more than from people who are avaricious and greedy of gain, or from worshippers of idols. For that would mean that you would be compelled to go out of the world altogether. 11But what I meant was that you were NOT TO ASSOCIATE with any one bearing the name of “brother,” if he was addicted to fornication or avarice or idol-worship or abusive language or hard-drinking or greed of gain. WITH SUCH A MAN YOU OUGH NOT EVEN TO EAT. 12For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Is it not for you to judge those who are within the Church 13while you leave to God’s judgement those who are outside? REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU.” (WEY – emphasis added) Now, being expelled or disfellowshipped from the congregation is usually temporary; the vast majority who are disfellowshipped are usually reinstated. It is a last resort method to help the person see that his or her conduct unbecoming a Christian is wrong and he or she must repent. It is a form of discipline, the most severe form of discipline. Elders and the congregation have no joy in removing one who has been expelled. But the “little leaven” must be removed as the apostle Paul wrote under inspiration by God. And when one is expelled, even when the individual is informed, he or she is still urged to repent at the same time, and told by the elders that they hope he or she repents and returns back to the truth. Even when expelled love is still shown, just as God discipline the one he loves. The book of 2 Corinthians indicates, that several months later, an individual who had committed gross immorality, repented, and the apostle Paul urged the congregation to reinstate the individual: 5Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.” (ESV). We do not hate the one who sins or who has left the truth- we only hate the sins they continue to commit and will avoid and not associate with that person and hope that he or she will return. Like the prodigal son who returns to his father, the congregation will joyfully and lovingly welcome back someone who repents and return back.
David – Thanks. Your examples of the former 7th Day Adventist who would not drink wine, the fornicator and the Trinitarian are not good examples of what I was referring to.
The fornication example you provide for disfellowship, would not apply to doctrinal differences. Disfellowship would apply for example as in the following text.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB) “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
What about someone who believes blood transfusions are okay, that the Great Crowd will be in heaven, that is okay to celebrate Christ’s birth or that those who die in Armageddon will be resurrected? Is it okay to shun, disfellowship and break up families when the baptized member disagrees with the organization on these views, but is only occasionally expressing these thoughts and not pushing his ideas?
You cannot find scriptural support for shunning, disfellowship or breaking up families over these types of issues.
In Romans 14:5, he writes, “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That clearly allows a measure of tolerance for two differing opinions on what is undeniably a point of doctrine.
The Apostle Paul set an example of leadership in his ministry to the congregations. His humility is very evident in his plea to the Corinthian brethren in –
2 Cor10:1 (NKJV) where he says, ”Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ — who in presence am lowly among you…”
Paul did not try to force his will upon the Church. He did not lord it over the Church, but in their presence was humble and lowly.
In 1 Thess 2:6-8 (NASV), Paul says, ”6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority. 7 But we proved to be gentle among you, as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children. 8 Having so fond an affection for you, we were well-pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God but also our own lives, because you had become very dear to us.”
The whole tone of scripture is for love, tolerance and encouragement, not forcing others to accept an organizations pronouncements or be cast out.
Romans 14:4 (ESV) “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
Romans 12:16 (Amplified) “Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty (snobbish, high-minded, exclusive), but readily adjust yourself to people, things {and } give yourselves to humble tasks. Never overestimate yourself {or } be wise in your own conceits.”
Romans 15:13-14 (Amplified) “13 May the God of your hope so fill you with all joy and peace in believing through the experience of your faith that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound {and } be overflowing (bubbling over) with hope. 14 Personally I am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are rich in goodness, amply filled with all spiritual knowledge and competent to admonish {and } counsel {and } instruct one another also.”
Colossians 3:13 (ESV) “Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
Philippians 2:1-11 (ESV) “So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,”
Ephesians 4:16: (GN) “Under his [God’s, not an organization] control all the different parts of the body fit together, and the whole body is held together by every joint with which it is provided. So when each separate part works as it should, the whole body grows and builds itself up through love.”
1Cor 12:15-22 (NASV) “If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;”
God has placed the members in the body (not a human organization). The head cannot say to the foot, I have no need of you. Nor should the congregation leaders say they have no need of the lower members. Pride and arrogance can cause us to be bullies who will not tolerate those “lower” member who chose to be guided by God’s spirit rather than an organization.
Br.Peter thank you for this answer with scripture, it is just what I and several others need to make a defense today with Jw elders in our families.
May God bless you for this at the right time. Although we had to read the rhetoric spewed out from the copy and paste of David, this answer was worth it!. Your sister in Christ.
Now let me go wield the sword.
The congregation of God was to be kept not only morally, but also spiritually clean.
Christmas: “You must not bow down to their gods or be persuaded to serve them, and you must not imitate their practices……” (Exodus 23:24) . “….. what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? …….‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing’” … (2 Corinthians 6:14 – 18)
Blood: …. to keep abstaining…..from blood……” (Acts 15:28)
Doctrinal disharmony: “Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. For some from the house of Chlo′e have informed me regarding you, my brothers, that there are dissensions among you…..” (1 Coritnians 1: 10-13) “Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those adhering to the teaching of Balaam…… In the same way, you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nicolaus”….(Rev 2: 2,6,14,16).“Too bad for them, for they have followed the path of Cain and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam for reward, and they have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah!” “As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition, knowing that such a man has deviated from the way and is sinning and is self-condemned”. (Titus 3:10,11) ) “….that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare, holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith. Hy•me•nae′us and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme”. (1Tim 1:19,20).
There can only be one truth.(Either the great crowd is heavenly or not. Either those destroyed at Armageddon are resurrected or not).
“For I rejoiced very much when brothers came and bore witness about the truth you hold, as you go on walking in the truth. No greater joy do I have than this: that I should hear that my children go on walking in the truth”- (3 John 1: 3, 4) “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth”. (John 4:23, 24).
Anna – There is NO scriptural justification for shunning, disfellowship and breaking up families over doctrinal differences, particularly when a brother or sister is not pushing their point of view or trying to draw followers after themselves. Even in that case the Bible does not give permission, or provide examples of, shunning and breaking up families.
You quoted a few scriptures about doctrinal disharmony, however none of them support the harsh JW view.
For example you quoted Titus about rejecting a man who promotes a sect. However this is not about the honest doctrinal differences I referred to. Just look at the context.
Titus 3:9 (NAS) “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.”
Also you quoted this verse.
1Tim 1:20 “Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.”
Anna – We are not talking about BLASPHEME. We are talking about honest doctrinal differences. The truth is you can’t support shunning and breaking up families from scriptures PERIOD. Your organization is filled with some sincere and wonderful Christian’s who are being controlled by a bunch of bullies who are running the organization.
Do you have neighbors with Christmas trees and decorations that are worshipping false Gods? Any connection with pagan worship at the same time of year is lost and long dead.
HELLO. HELLO. IS ANYONE HOME ANNA? Your neighbors are NOT worshipping pagan gods at Christmas time. The problem is materialism and fictional stories of Santa distracting people away from worhipping Jesus. The Watchtower Organization can say all day long that your neighbors are engaged in worship of pagan gods. However, even an idiot would realize that is NOT true. You can choose to set a better example by making Jesus the center of the holiday. If any ancient connections to paganism bother your conscience, then do not celebrate. But that is your personal decision. What business does a human organization have setting up rules with consequences, where the rules are man made?
Peter, do you know why the true Christian congregation in the 1st. Century became apostatized after the last of the Apostles died? Yes, Jesus predicted it would. But have you read secular historical accounts of what actually happened in the second, third and fourth centuries? Why did the original one church eventually splinter into many, many different denominations? Wasn’t it because of honest doctrinal differences? Read the history Peter. You will then clearly see how the pure truth of the Bible was gradually watered down, debates over what this or that meant, and the thinking of philosophers adopted. Do you think the Catholics for example don’t have an honest reason for having idols in their churches? Of course they do. Their reason is they are not actually worshipping those statues of Mary and Jesus etc, they are merely visible aids in worship. See, they have come up with an excuse for why it’s ok! The same reasoning can be applied to ALL the religions of the world. Surely they all have honest reasons for believing what they do, don’t they? But there is only one truth. The question is, are we going to follow/believe something because it suits us and/or because we like it? Or because it is truth?
Peter, please give more credit to those who are Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s not US and THEM (“who you refer to as bullies”). We are all in it together. They are our brothers. We all beat with the same heart. We said so at our baptism. Those who change their mind, are no longer Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nobody is forcing anybody into anything. However Jesus did say: “Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me”. (Matthew 10: 34-38).
Of course my neighbors who celebrate Christmas don’t believe they are worshipping false gods. But neither do those in churches who pray to Jesus and Mary and sing hymns in praise of the “holy trinity” think they are doing anything wrong….
Anna,
The more that the Jehovahs Witnesses post on this site, the more it is understood by the followers of this site that the Jehovahs Witnesses organization is a “cult” like organization that “controls” its members out of fear under the guise of love. So, keep with the comments as it only proves our points. Your rhetoric is “cut and paste” from the booklets published. It is so obvious to all. Most here see it and are shaking there heads.
Anna – Your neighbor probably doesn’t know the Truth, but even so, on Christmas they are not worshipping false gods. That is nonsence. The Catholic comparison of statues does not relate to this as God clearly stated “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (Deuteronomy 5:8). Clearly the Catholic idols are in violation of scripture. Yet there is no Bible verse that prohibits celebrating Christ’s birth. Stop being a bully and telling other Christians what they have to do. You cannot support this people control tactic with scripture.
We all know that Jesus explained in Matt 13 that Satan would sow tares among the wheat and how Paul warned that wolves would come in not sparing the flock (Acts 20:29). We all know the denominational Churches embrace the false doctrines of Hell, Trinity and Immortality of the Soul. However the JW Organization has deceived its good and honest members to believe false doctrines as well.
1) The Ransom for ALL is only for some. (1 Tim 2:4-6)
2) Those NOT in the JW ark will be destroyed in Armageddon.
3) Pursuing a Great Crowd earthly hope when Paul clearly said that there is only “one hope of our calling.” (Eph 4:4)
4) Exodus 20:15 says, “You shall not steal.” Yet you have stolen God’s promises to Natural Israel. The future repentant nation of Israel are God’s real earthly organization. (Zech 12:10; Jeremiah 31:35-37)
5) Blood transfusions not allowed. Your family member must die rather than get a blood transfussion.
6) Shunning and breaking up families
I will say to you what I said to David.
I am deeply saddened at your heartless use of Matt 10 to justify the hateful shunning, disfellowship and even breaking up of families, even if you downplay this as not so or infrequent. Let us read the verses.
Matthew 10:34-36 (NASB)
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father , and a daughter against her mother , and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law ; and a man ‘ s enemies will be the members of his household.”
The sword that divides here is indeed the Truth. (Hebrew 4:12). The Jewish and Gospel Ages overlapped creating a Jewish Harvest of Wheat [Christian Jews] and Chaff [rejected Jewish nation destroyed] – Matt 3:12; Luke 3:17; Mark 4:29.
In this division that resulted from the Truth, it was the Christians who were cast out of synagogues and families. [Luke 21:16; John 16:2; Acts 8:1-3] The Christians were not casting out their unconverted Jewish family members. In the Dark Ages, the Little Flock were among those persecuted by the tyrannical and oppressive Papal system. Do you get this??? – The real Lord’s people are not the persecutors!
1 Peter 3:10-12 says, “let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; LET HIM SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.”
Ephesians 4:32 says ” But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you.”
Titus 3:2 (AMP) “To slander or abuse or speak evil of no one, to avoid being contentious, to be forbearing (yielding, gentle, and conciliatory), and to show unqualified courtesy toward everybody.”
Luke 6:27-28, 31-33, 35-36 (NASB)
“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”
Some very good scriptual references regarding “shunning” you have put across here Peter!
Peter, I would like to set something straight here. You make it sound like Jehovah’s Witnesses love disfellowshipping and hate and persecute those who are disfellowshipped. And that they break up families. The scripture in Matthew 10: 34-38 I used was not to justify any hate or persecution by members of the congregation or family! I know the “real Lord’s people” are not the persecutors and I never said they were. You misunderstood. That scripture simply shows that those who hold onto the truth will have those who are not in the truth against them. I understand that scripture the same way you do. But do you think it does not apply to those who once knew the truth but have left it? Are they not the ones who criticize and attack those who stick to the truth? All one has to do is go on an apostate website and it is very evident who the attackers and haters are. You admitted that truth is the “sword” that divides. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they have the truth, but they are not the ones who go hating and persecuting those who they believe don’t have it or no longer have it).
Back to disfellowshipping. Those who are expelled from the congregation are neither hated nor persecuted. (If I said that no elder ever abused their position, that would be untruthful of me, unfortunately it has happened, but those who have that kind of an attitude are individuals who are NOT abiding by the Bible (the scriptures you quoted) in the first place, nor by what the GB says. Jehovah will judge them accordingly). But thankfully those are in the minority. Disfellowshipping is not our teaching, not something we made up. It is a scriptural rule, and the reasons for expulsion are clearly stated as well; so that the congregation is kept clean and does not lose God’s approval: “Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first. If you do not, I will come to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent”. Revelation 2: 5
You seem to agree that those who are immoral etc…. should not be a part of God’s congregation and should be expelled.
Your problem was mainly with “honest doctrinal differences”. Those in the JW congregation, who develop a different doctrinal view are NOT automatically disfellowshipped. They are lovingly counselled ONLY if they teach their ideas as being those of JWs (that is a misrepresentation and lying) and if they cause an ongoing disruption of the peace in the congregation. After several loving admonitions (using the scriptures) with no effect, it stands to reason why these individuals would no longer be welcome unless they stopped. Are you an elder in your congregation Peter? If so, how do you handle situations where one of your members starts actively misrepresenting the beliefs of Bible Students, (perhaps saying he believes we should pray to Jesus) and starts arguing and pushing his case causing divisions, disruptions and distress to the other members of the flock? Is it not your God given responsibility and a loving act on your part to protect the flock in such cases?
“Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling CONTRARY to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them” ( Romans 16:17) “Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone who pushes ahead and does NOT REMAIN in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works”. (2 John 1:8)
Most members of the JW congregation have an opinion. Even about what some scriptures mean. They are not brainwashed as some like to say, nor gullible. We think about things, we do research, we have discussions. The difference is, are we going to INSIST our point of view or our interpretation is the right one? One thing is being of a questioning mind like the Beroeans, and another being hyper critical and accusatory. No one is ever discouraged from doing their own personal study of the Bible, on the contrary. And those that have been disfellowshipped are not banned from the meetings and neither are they prevented from becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses again if they repent. In fact, they are encouraged to do so.
P.S. The Watchtower of Nov. 2006 says this regarding how elders should handle cases of serious wrong in the congregation: “No loving shepherd beats a docile, bleating lamb for hurting itself. When elders deal with erring fellow believers, therefore, it is a matter, not of crime and punishment, but of sin and spiritual restoration where possible. (James 5:13-20) Elders must judge with righteousness and “treat the flock with tenderness.” (Acts 20:29, 30; Isaiah 32:1, 2) Like all other Christians, elders are to ‘exercise justice, love kindness, and be modest in walking with God.’ (Micah 6:8) Such qualities are vital when making decisions involving the life and sacred service of “the sheep of [Jehovah’s] pasturage.”—Psalm 100:3”.
I will answer your accusations 1-6 later
Anna you mention the fact that one can go to any apostate site. Are you aware that it is the Jehovah Witnesses like you and David that come to other person’s sites, to sling mud, where they are comforting and helping each other heal from the misapplication of the bible and intrusion into their lives with high control religion tactics falsely in the name of God. Not a soul that have left go to your site, they don’t care to waste their time there, check it out.You come to disrupt the lives of these people further by hounding and spitting out your rhetoric on their sites! They don’t bother you.
Do they come to your site JW.org and say one word?? NO! They don’t come to your kingdom halls, they don’t try to associate with you but you go out of your way to try and stop them from healing and having friends that care about them and have an excellent knowledge of the scriptures.
You accuse persons from other sites, but you are the intruders and go on their sites trying to incite.
Those that have left the witnesses don’t go near the JW.org website. You guys spend your time FOLLOWING the poor souls to the sites that they set up for themselves and pay for.
I know your organization will not let you speak your mind on their site. And if it is found out you and David are getting in your time on our site you will be called into a judicial meeting. Or doesn’t that apply to you also since you are clearly violating your leaders rules and regulations.
I will admit that you provide the best opportunities for us to tell the real truth. You are like the bounce guy on a TV talk show.
You mention most members of the congregation have an opinion, but they better not state it openly or to a snitch as David is bringing out they can’t be allowed to disagree with the governingbody’s understanding and remain in the congregation.
If you revealed yourself and they talked to you, you would be DF if you didn’t repent for commenting on a website that are the original Bible Students.
The governing body has apostacized away from what is the truth. There is nothing wrong with being an apostate however from another religion, it just means you left it. Only witnesses get upset when persons leave their religion.
Check the web, you will see of all the religions the witnesses are almost the only ones running around doing damage control. Most religions don’t have to do that as the witnesses have the most negative comments about their tactics.
You quote the watchtower of Nov 2006, can’t you just say how a person should be treated? No, you can’t because only one person is thinking for you, your governingbody.
These are some of the other websites that you might want to visit also, they allow you to talk http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com
http://www.jwfacts.com, http://www.jwstruggle.com jwsurvey.com. Also you might want to visit Utube for videos to see what millions think of your organization. (These are mostly all of your elders and they should know)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jwstruggle.com
http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com, http://www.jehovahs-witness.net
CAN ALL THESE PEOPLE WORLDWIDE BE WRONG? You probably need to listen and look at yourself instead of trying to get people to come back there.
You guys can’t admit you are wrong and this damage control is allowing us to tell it as you bring up the subjects. Thank you
Oh Jacqueline, how very wrong you are! Have you been on any of the sites at all? They are all very diligent with keeping up with the latest Watchtowers, and any new publication dissecting it and criticizing it and making fun. And they are all very diligent visiting our jw.org website and watching the videos of annual meetings etc. making derogatory comments about them on their webites. Would you like me to post some links in case you don’t believe me? But of course they cannot leave any comments on jw.org as this is not possible, and you know that. HOWEVER, in the past some well meaning Witnesses HAVE set up their own sites, especially on Face Book, to fellowship and encourage each other etc, (I am not talking about personal Face Book accounts) and these have all had to be closed down because they were overrun with opposers making nasty accusatory remarks and telling lies. I know, I have witnessed it personally. When I came on here, I did not come to argue about what you believe. I saw lies and misinformation ABOUT US and our beliefs which I felt obligated to correct. If you do not want us Jehovah’s Witnesses to come to this site and as you say “but you are the intruders and go on their sites trying to incite” (which is not true) then you should change the website’s heading “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses as it is very misleading”. Of course, it is your right (specifically Peter’s right) as admin to throw me out, “disfellowship me”. I cannot argue against that.
There are nearly 8 Million JW’s, and out of these maybe a handful such as me and David have commented on here. I would not say we were trying to overrun your website.
And by the way, how can you say with such certainty that David and I are counting time? Do you have some special powers I do not know of? For your information I am not counting time. Of course I cannot speak for David as I have no idea.
The reason why I quoted the Watchtower 2006 (the GB) was because an accusation was being made against them on that specific topic.
You really do make me smile Jacqueline.
Anna – I was a witness for over 60 years you are counting time and that is okay. I am just keeping it real Anna. You call us and sites like this apostate and say we are spreading lies or misinformation yet you associate with us. Having been a witness for over 60 years I KNOW your leaders tell you not too. So you are no good little witness yourself. Like the millions leaving you also see a need to branch out to see what was really said before Br. Rutherford broke away and started his corporate religion.
Yes take me to the link where Bible Students and the millions that have left are commenting and getting spiritual food from the site jw.org.
The millions that have left don’t go near a kingdom hall nor your site. We don’t really need to go on there as like you we have what help we need here.
No you don’t have to worry we won’t disfellowship you. You say stuff that allows us to give answers to the over 6000 that are reading your postings here.
In fact you have increased our site traffic by a lot. You are good for the site, Anna.
I never knew why the society said don’t comment on the sites that want nothing to do with their leadership now I know. You have demonstrated it. So yes count your time as you have at least 200-300 people coming on to see the Anna saga. So no DF but I for one think we need to get into the meat of the scriptures themselves.
I left the witnesses along with our audience of 6000 to give you guys your kingdom hall without intrusion on your doctrine and worship of your governing body. Especially not to interrupt your new Mormon TV that came from the governing body member whose grandfather was a head one in the mormons.
Go to the Mormon website and see where they got it. We don’t want to be part mormon. I see from your comment you didn’t know where it came from. Also go to a mormon website and ask them where “Family Worship” night comes from? They will tell you it belongs to them and the governing body member that grew up with them took it over to the witnesses to help them out.
I know most of the people that head most of the sites I posted, they said they will run over and look your site over. The millions are gone and nothing you have to offer or say Anna will get me or others to come back to slavery under the governing body of Popes or Papas and their hit like squad the Do, CO, elders, zone brothers etc. The same set up as the Catholic Churech.
In fact the more I write I realize the Jehovah witness governing body has been borrowing all the control things from other religions because they see they work to control.
If I had something to hide or fear I would not let anyone comment on my site either. All sites that have left the witnesses have comment space as we have nothing to hide. They are dictators from my personal dealings with them.
So please say some more good stuff so we can answer and the 300 hundred coming to check this morning can enjoy their coffee. Take Care Anna
PS: Anna may I suggest you send a letter to the governingbody to ask them to let you talk on their site or let us come on there too talk. That might be something to consider, because we are good here, our seems to be working. Maybe you could post their reply from them here for us to see.
We post your Jw.org often, let the people go there and decide for themselves. Witnesses try to indoctrinate instead of letting people make their decisions. Maybe millions will run to you instead of away.
Finally you can use your name again instead of Jw.org. The name Jehovah witnesses is a stench in most people nostrils because you hunt people down to push your organization. You can’t even use your name anymore.
Jacqueline,
I believe the one thats calling herself “Anna” is here to rile you up, call you names, to cast insults. Its a jw tactic we’ve been familiar with. Its called guilting,Shaming, Intimidating,Bullying & counting A WHOLE LOT of time in the process.She might be Auxiliary or Regular Pioneering & need to put in the 70 or 50 or 30 hours. Its from being linked to the “collective hive mind”. We may just have to shake the dust from off our feet because we know that we worship Jehovah. We know Jehovah reads our hearts. We know that she just wants to resort to name calling. Apostate is a horrible name. My mother used to teach me the childhood expression when growing up…Sticks & stones will break my bones, but WORDS will never harm us.” Anna are you associating with Apostates???This is a Disfellowshipping matter. This is serious! Agape..
Dundee I know and we used her also to answer and Br. Peter could really explain in detail for the viewers. The traffic numbers shot thru the roof. Anna name even show up when you put in Bible Students on the web coupled with the term governingbody, lol. It was an excellent platform for Br. Peter to explain some things I didn’t quite understand but Anna poking allowed him to explain.
It also showed how desperate the Jehovah witnesses are now to retain and fight back at the tons of negative press they are getting. It is a revealing of the organization that is going on. Like the prophet that tried to curse Israel it turned into a blessing as we got the chance to expose some of the reasons many are leaving.
Jeff is a former witness that went back to let the Catholic Church know how he was treated after he left and found out there are many returning to the Catholic Church that had left for the witnesses. They have a special unprograming set up only for witnesses.
When I realized we had forgot about “lone” (the new poster) dealing with these attention seekers, it brought me to my senses. David and Anna felt they had taken over the site, but Br. Peter needed a bounce person to get it across about the shunning etc.
He knew the numbers were over the top and he had to say what everybody wanted to hear on what the bible really says about a lot of things.
It was successful and any media on here got their whole movie for sure. LOL
Thank you dear Brothers for the encouragement. I’ll be okay, I know Br. Peter is a fine Elder and always keeps to his role as shepherding the flock entrusted to him. I know if you don’t get tough with witnesses they will knock on your door until you open it or jump off a cliff, they can be a pest and won’t get off your porch. Their porch is Jw.org but they won’t mouth off on it but will on news articles to the point some of them shut down the comments.
Set up a “google alert Jehovah witnesses”, every day you will get any JW news good or bad even obits. If it is bad the witnesses go insane commenting and backbiting at other posters. It gives them a bad name, they think they are defending their religion but it shows them as being bullies with all their pioneers and publishers getting in their time since door to door is dangerous for them as people are hostile.
I like being called an apostate from the Jehovah witnesses in fact I embrace it because Jesus and all the Apostles even Mary were apostates from a system just like the governingbody, the Sanhedrin. So I am in good company on that. Mary changed her religion and followed her son. He started a new and better approach. So nothing wrong with being an apostate, only the witnesses demonize it. Normally it means you have a backbone to do the right thing and stand up to bullies. Take Care. I will tell you about an incident tomorrow similar to yours. Got to get some rest now a long weekend. Agape and Peace
I think it’s more like you guys are trying to rile me up by INSISTING I am counting hours by being on here, lol. Comparing the Witnesses governing body to the Catholic pope and the Mormons, accusing us of hounding and spiting rhetoric, copying and pasting, not having our own thoughts and then calling us a bully for reasoning, and a destructive and dangerous sect and what not. It seems like the name calling has come from your side.
I never called Jacqueline or anyone on here an apostate. I did not even insinuate it. It seems to be in the minds of those who for some reason feel persecuted when someone starts fighting back against misinformation heaped up against them, and brings up, and reasons on, scriptures in defense. I thought Bible Students were like our long lost brothers. I had no idea they hated us so much. “Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses” a fear free zone. Really? I feel as welcome as a dog with fleas 🙂
Anna – I finally approved your comment and you are welcome to comment here again. At the end of 2014, I gave the okay to get more aggressive to deal with David and you got caught up in the whirlwind. Although some of your comments were a bit sharp I can understand this may have partly been in response to our more aggressive approach. We were receiving enough feedback of concern that we felt the site needed a break.
I relate to you sort of like the bickering sister that moved out of home and now I (the bickering brother) miss you. Go figure!?
I think you are somewhat stubborn and inflexible. However you are also gutsy, sincere, smart and willing to have a real point by point discussion. I admire that about you. Our mission now is to make you more warm and fuzzy. LOL
Welcome back if you chose to return.
Anna,
I have been in a few congregations thru-out 40 yrs. It has been a different experience than what you write. You’re explaining the “Official Teaching” not the
“Actual” things that go on in the weekly life of the fold. Let me explain it in a different way. The Watchtower says something beautiful how things are done, it appeals to many so people want to experience it, but in reality, it doesn’t exist in soooo many Kingdom Halls. I had a dear friend, an annointed brother who recently finished his earthly course. He was a gem of a brother. I was having a conversation with him ALL the abuse I experienced, & how they almost killed my son on atleast 3 occasions and other stuff going on in the different Halls. He warned me that there are many wolves among the elders & that there are not many good ones left. But that if these bad elders would be removed the congregations would really suffer & a lot more would leave. This way they’d have more control. People will leave but at a slower rate.
My experience has been that many elders enjoy disfellowshipping. I’ve watched them do it, I’ve listened to their conversations bragging that they love the action. I’ve watched them huddle at gatherings and make fun of the friends, I mean REALLY crack up laughing. They would divulge the confidential talk. And they loved the local needs parts after the disfellowshipping.They would announce everything spoken of in the judicial committee, even the things they would promise the individual to keep confidential. They would mention the persons gender, male/female. And say the phrase, “Do you want to know why we disfellowshipped this brother? He brought mud on our walls.On our carpets, On our chairs.He did this……………(saying EVERYTHING)……………. I watched a sister tell some of the friends what she read in the Aid to Bible Understanding Book(The one b4 the Insight on the Scriptures Volumes). It mentioned that Jehovah isn’t the real name of the Almighty God, but that it was invented by a Catholic Monk, being the Jews didn’t have the vowels in between the consonents. The brothers marked her. Then shortly thereafter they Disfellowshipped her. I was an elder there, before i stepped down for failing health. They didn’t even meet with her.They didn’t give her a chance to respond. She had honest questions. They were like wolverines in the back room, vicious.I was scared for the sister. Several congs did not allow questions of the elders.If we would question them, we would be threatened with removal of our responsibility or disfellowshipping. People that wanted to be reinstated they would ignore their pleas in letter form. Fellow elders would tell me that they would make the repentant one jump thru hoops, enjoy making them cry in the back room & not reinstate them. Some they would say they would NEVER reinstate because of biased leanings. I have been told in a FEW congregations that we must not research. We must not check the sources.Trust the Faithful & Discrete slave.They wouldn’t lie to us.We must not read the Bible on our own. We must read it along with a Watchtower.
Dundee, do you remember the service meeting in about 2009 when the article was about the slave not encouraging groups of brothers getting together to discuss scripture. That use only the society publications to get the answer as they have done it for you. (feeding) I remember they used to accuse the Catholic Church of the very same thing that they do themselves.
I have had elders tell me in field service unsolicited about committee cases and exactly what was done and with whom. They have an obsession with fornication but wink at gossip, evil speaking, lying by their wives etc. It was a difficult place to be and “WAIT ON JEHOVAH” was the solution to survival of this abuse.
The stories would fill a giant kingdom hall if printed in book form. They accused a young five year old of being a vixen that lured a ministerial servant into molesting her. She has told her story on this site but when the CO gave the talk I didn’t know it was my little friend in the kingdom hall.
Now when I go to meetings and conventions with the Bible Students no one talks about sex all the time in graphic detail with little children sitting in the audience. They help me to realize I was in something bizarre, I can only hope to concentrate on my children and grands to help them have a more normal life since they are still blinded.
I feel the internet is the great revealer of the giant organization and especially their governing body whom I view as businessmen running a scheme. And it works.
I was renewed from my association at the convention this weekend. I plan to get with my brothers every weekend in addition to our Wednesday night meeting. The benefit saved me this week, I read some of David’s comments and got physically ill. Take Care
This is an experience from the google alert today:
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/11690402.___I_used_to_cry_myself_to_sleep________victim_of_former_Jehovah___s_Witness_Barry_Furlong_speaks_out_after_court_ordeal/
Jacqueline,
YES I remember they said people would get together in private groups & research outside referances. The Watchtower Society banned us from doing that.We were told to just trust the Faithful Slave that is assigned to feed us.And to just read OUR publications from The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society ONLY!
And yes I was reading earlier about the abuse of that JW brother who sexually abused those young ones.But thanks for this link.Got to read more from it. Reading this makes me sick. And yes, When i read some of David’s comments & even Anna’s, I was having trouble with my heart. Oh the memories that are resurfacing. The trauma on our bodies.
I think because Br. Peter was actually looking at me he could see I was upset. Butsince your heart was hurting I know there were some just bleeding over these men bringing the horrible teachings and the discipline tactics and control up again. But Br. Peter and all the brothers commenting stood up to the bullies and I for one learned a lot from Br. Peter’s comments on WHY they were wrong. I knew it was evil but could not put my finger on scriptures.
Holy Spirit knew we needed to hear what a Bible Student elder would say, so he put hooks in the jaws of Anna and David, they served their purpose.
I stopped reading what they wrote and just read what the Bible Student brothers and Br. Peter wrote to get some great strengthing answers.
It was a blast. LOL. I have recovered now and ready for more.
Dundee, I am sorry but I cannot answer your post as I have been cut off, “disfellowshipped” from this site. (Evidently banned from making comments. Isn’t THAT ironic? And I haven’t even been warned, or told why…..)
My dear brother David,
I have to agree with Brother Peter. It has been my own experience being bullied by brothers with power. Like the old expression, Power corrupts & ABSOLUTE power corrupts ABSOLUTELY! I was threatened when a newly married brother in one of my congregations experienced his new bride tricking him & leaving him within the 1st month. I wanted to work with him in the ministry & provide some scriptural encouragement on a Sunday afternoon, after the meeting ofcourse. 3 elders threatened me with disfellowshipping if I were to work with him.They said on Sunday afternoons i must work with brothers in my field service group.That “this is the rule.”I explained my friend is depressed & that while we can have Holy Spirit in the ministry I can assist my brother emotionally & spiritually.They threatened me with disfellowshipping on several occasions & roadblocked me from providing encouragement & help. I spoke to one CO & he told me to write to Bethel of which i did & that he never heard a rule as that.The Christian Cong.of Jehovah’s Witnesses corp.wrote me & said there is no rule on Sunday service such as i explained the elders were making. Then the letter surfaced in an elders & ministerial servant meeting because bethel mailed it to the elders. Then the elders accused me of being Korah & deserving of Jehovah’s punishment as that ancient man deserved.This defamation of character & slander in front of all the brothers, elders & M.S. in the back room, i was in shock!Then a judicial inquiry followed after ON ME! I had some suggestions for my friend to unite his family again, cause I knew of his wife well before he came into the picture & she had an emotional imbalance & so as a result of her condition, she departed from him, a great brother. I asked the elders to give him a shepherding call to encourage & they threatened me to keep silent & that I had no right to make a suggestion. That they are in charge. They would bully me relentlessly! I was a Ministerial Servant at the time. One elder brought up charges against me, while my parent had major surgery & had to be in a rehabilitation facility just to walk again. The elder told me i needed to step down & that I should not be taking care of my crippled parent. Then he took me off of all responsibilities of a M.S. on the lists on the information board.When seeking help from the other elders, they threatened to disfellowship me cause they were best friends. They were in on it. Then in the back room again, this time the brother hurled accusations against me for missing 100% of the book study & that they would handle me judicially. When in fact I was only missing 25%(1meeting a month)I had to bring my calendar as a ledger that i needed to carry to protect myself often.It was proved that the elder was abusing his power. Particularly when i reminded them the sign on the front of our building says Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses & that you brother….so&so…just prayed for Holy Spirit that the angels are here watching this kangeroo court & reporting back to our Heavenly Father.They said that i appear smarter than them but they will be watch for 1 thing more & they would disfellowship & remove me from responsibility. They ended the meeting.Couldn’t look me in the eye Then I had gotten cancer from the stress they were causing me & my newlywed wife that they stopped calling on her at the meetings to get even with me by taking it out on her.(Fast forwarding a bit into the future, my wife cheated on me due to the pressure from the elders that they were exerting all the time, that she said to me she did this adultery cause she couldn’t take the fact i was persecuted by the elders in ………….such & such………congregation. That the elders put a bulls eye on my back.That she can’t handle it.)You wouldn’t believe how much money on my home equity line of credit to get treatment for the cancer.Thankfully it is gone now.
Another congregation i moved to from there, I was eventually appointed an Elder. When i looked in the file cabinet i saw a letter written about me saying that i missed a tremendous load of meetings from that previous cong, which infact was a lie. I had proved I only missed 1 Book Study a month. So a letter wasn’t warranted.Yet that slander was there. He was the Secretary of course that hated me & tried to get even. I showed tremendous humility to the friends in my new hall, as I was always accustomed to doing. One elder told me i should walk off the platform with my head up, never down.That we are of the elite. That we are Elders.That we will be Princes in the Kingdom. Show the cong.your power! he said. I got to see the elders taunt ppl in the hall, threaten them over trivial matters. One brother had his private medical health spread thru the cong. from a sister that worked in a doctors office violating HIPPA. The Cobe (Coordinator of the Body of Elders)threatened him to keep silent about it or else be disfellowshipped.I watched them press up against him, & threaten him. The sister violated the law. The brother wrote to the doctors office alerting them, the doctor wrote an appology card hoping they wouldn’t be sued.Then the secretary told the sister, then the sister called & manipulated the elders.Then the Cobe & another elder without investigating threatened the innocent party.Guess who the innocent party was?? Yes you might have guessed, me. I never saw men so close up on my body…it was extremely intimidating! They said there is no HIPPA laws, that I’m making that up. If I say Hippa one more time I’d be disfellowshipped & removed….I was an elder at the time. Then these brothers turned my wife against me & supported her in her adultery. I had court discovery of phone records, sexting records, emails, & all sorts of discovery. They refused to look & threatened me. She was best friends with the Cobe’s wife, & would buy $70 edible arrangement baskets for another elder & do things for another elders family. I call that bribery & biased leanings. I had police reports of her attacking me & the elders wouldn’t listen.I was scared for my life! They ignored me. Well now she has HIV.Looking at the bright side, I see the ill manners of some of these elders(I say some because there have been others I’ve absoluuetely loved & were true elders in every sense of the word but passed away) I see the ill manners eventually led me to kick her out my house, which protected me from HIV. So good resulted. But my brother David…This authority to Disfellowship is abused. I have probably mentioned only 10% or less of everything else I’ve been threatened with. They broke up my family. I have experienced bullying, threats, stalkings, stairing in my windows, not leaving my driveway, not being able to celebrate our anniversaries due to the stress, & the losing of my wife emotionally. She checked out. I’m left picking up the pieces of my life& divorced. They still have been relentlessly taunting me. I have been in a few halls & its been the same power wielding over anything. I can understand if someone continually is immoral & is a bad influence on the cong as in Corinth. Got to safeguard the friends. But it goes overboard. You might not realize this or havent seen the abuse with your own eyes or ears, or might not want to admit it. I understand we were taught a lie is withholding information from ppl that have the right to know. And so we protect the real truth from being told thinking ppl don’t really have the right to this knowledge cause we have the “true religion”. I am sorry if what I said offends you, but i am not sorry for expressing these factual events. I am a living testimony. This is my brief First hand testimony.
David,
Sorry, i am trying to get used to placing a response in the correct location. This ended up in another location but I intended this to reach you. Peace be with you my brother & length of days in the Kingdom..
Chuck,
to answer your questions – the PEW Survey included all the major groups, including the Catholics, Southern Baptist, Seventh-Day Adventist, Assembly of God, etc, but it does not include the Bible Students. PEW generally do not include the smaller, basically unknown groups, with less than 100K members in the US.
My last 2 posting were long in order to respond to a long reply that was given to me, even though I notice I missed some posts.
I am not following any teachings of men. I am not a follower of Russell nor Rutherford nor any human beings. I read my Bible regularly, and I am convinced that the Christians who teach the Bible truth are the Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses. Just because I happen to agree with them, does not mean I believe I can’t think for myself. Although I find that Russell taught many fundamental Bible truths, and was the founder of the Watchtower printing company, I do not follow him. I agree with that the light of the truth or understanding of the truth would get brighter (Prov. 4:18), but he was not the founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jesus Christ was our founder. We follow the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, as clearly taught in the Bible.
David, I find it interesting that your first paragraph puts the Jehovahs Witnesses in the company of a number of “worldly churches”. Are you proud of that? The small flock of the Bible Students would seem, according to you, to be unknown to the world. I find that rather interesting also. The Bible Students spread the truth worldwide and yet draw no attention to themselves or any orgfanization. I personally witness to people frequently and when they ask what church I belong to, I tell them “I don’t belong to any organized denomination, I am a Bible Student”. Only those indoctrinated in their church’s doctrines have trouble with what I tell them of the “good news” and Kingdom. Most tell me they would still be “church goers” if they had been taught from the pulpit what I told them. (We know that won’t happen!) In the Kingdom they will remember our conversation and hopefully it will be easier for them to understand what is happening. This is why we spread the Good News of the ransom for all. Not for personal pride or any organization, but, for those who need to hear.
You state that you are not following the “teachings of men”. Yet you have repeatedly “cut and pasted” the teachings of Rutherford and others of the Jehovahs Witnesses from their many publications. I realize you feel you have made these decisions on your own. But what if you personally come across anything in Scripture that disagrees with the organization and its writings? Can you speak out with confidence without being “corrected”? Do you just hold it inside and stay with the group you feel comfortable with? OR, do you stay quiet out of fear? All three scenarios are common among members in the nominal churches. None of them happen among the Bible Students that I have associated with.
Controlling the masses is a “worldly religion” mechanism. (Punishment in Hell comes to mind) The Jehovahs Witnesses have this practice perfected it would seem with their doctrine of Armageddon for anyone not part of their “flock”. It does not sound as BAD as Hell Doctrine but is essentially the same thing and serves the same purpose. (It is not scriptural either, but, that is another conversation.) As for the statements made on this site that millions of people “freely” believe in the organizations doctrines; the millions of women in the world who put up with mental and/or physical abuse also stay with the person doing it to them “willingly”. Out of fear. Claiming all along that fear is not the reason and actually believing it. Their justifications sound eerily similar to those used by Jehovahs Witnesses when they comment that Jehovah “knows” and will deal with it.
We both agree that Br. Russell taught many of the fundamental Bible truths we hold dear and that he was the founder of the Watchtower printing company. After his death, though, it was usurped by Rutherford and was no longer fulfilling its original purpose. In my personal opinion, it was then sprinkling the adversaries agenda in among the truth it did publish. This was new light to be sure! Just not the light I choose to follow and apparently neither did quite a few Bible Students at that time, as they did not choose to join the new organization. I do not FOLLOW Br. Russell, why do so many Jehovahs Witnesses on this site seem to think Bible Students do? (Possibly for the same reasons it is believed Jehovahs Witnesses follow Rutherford?) We admire Br. Russell and believe he was inspired to bring forth “truth” at the proper time. We also seem to agree that he was NOT the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Many denominations claim to follow the teachings of Jesus and his apostles as you state the Jehovahs Witnesses do. The Jehovahs Witnesses do not have the sole ownership of that concept. (Ask any Baptist!) Stating it does not make it so.
I have also noticed Jehovahs Witnesses referring to “Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses” and “the Christian Congregation” frequently on this site as of late. I have worked in advertising in some form or another for many years and I understand “branding” and its importance when the “old” image gets stale, or even worse, gets a bad reputation. With the many posts here commenting on the replacement of Christ Jesus with the GB among the Jehovahs Witnesses, I can understand a need for new branding. You may have called yourselves that but the world has not heard it.
As for “The light getting brighter,” that IS how Bible Students see it. Light does not change, it gets brighter and is more fully understood. It would seem the Jehovahs Witnesses removed the original lightbulb and replace it every so often with a new one. This is not “the light getting brighter”. This is a fundamental change of that light when deemed necessary.
I know this whole thread started with a discussion of “Christmas”. So, here are my questions to you.
If I was a baptized member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization and wanted to celebrate the birth of Christ our Lord, ESPECIALLY at this time of year, what would happen to me and why? (I DO celebrate it year round.)
Would I be allowed to, once I proved Scripturally there is no ban on it? (I am not talking about all the “circuses” the world participates in.)
Sincerely,
Br. Chuck
Sorry Chuck, I know it wasn’t a question for me, since our conversation about Christmas is over, but have to pipe up! Why not sprinkle yourself with “holy water”, say the Hail Mary, take the Eucharist, put up a few idols, light some candles and pray to Jesus and Mary? You might as well, since it was those very same people who came up with Christmas celebration too! Christmas never existed in Bible times, so it obviously could not have been forbidden. But we know very well what the Bible says about apostate Christendom. Get out of her, touch nothing unclean! Enough said.
Anna and yet you are still in apostate Christianity. You can’t be referring to Bible Students as you have come to us of your own free will and associated because your website for the Jehovah witnesses won’t let you express yourself. They slickly write it and you better not question it! They don’t provide dialogue because you are controlled and Must believe what they say. Here you have been treated as a human and as if you have a mind. You have parroted the same garbage that they script for you and we even know by memory some of what you guys write.
I hope you have enjoyed the wholesome association with us the Bible Students. I agree with you that it was right for you to come here and quit touching the unclean organization of the witnesses and it’s pagan God the governing body.
Anna,
Your quote:
“Why not sprinkle yourself with “holy water”, say the Hail Mary, take the Eucharist, put up a few idols, light some candles and pray to Jesus and Mary? “
Really. I am almost embarrassed to even respond to this one. I can’t believe you would make those inane statements towards a true Christian that chooses to celebrate the miraculous birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Again, Wow! Is that the response of a true follower of Christ? I think not. So whose doctrine do you follow? Love and compassion are obviously out of the question. Especially when it comes to the wonderful birth of our Savior.
Your response has proven so many points made by those questioning the JW’s on this site. Because I don’t believe the same as you do, you put forth those terrible accusations! All of which are hateful and you should know are not true. I cannot have any trust in a person that makes such hateful statements about another true Christian. I would never say the same to you.
Br. Chuck
Chuck, I did not mean to upset or offend you.I just wanted to make you think. When you look around Christendom’s churches, and see them celebrating the birth of Christ which they instituted after they apostatized and under very offensive circumstances in history of the church, does that not equally offend you as the rest of their un-biblical practices, such as the ones I mentioned? Do you not understand that celebration of Christmas is a package designed by Christendom? How does Jehovah feel about Christendom according to Revelation? How clever Satan is. He has disguised something unholy and made it appear to be holy!
Those who “sprinkle themselves with “holy water”, say the Hail Mary, take the Eucharist, put up idols, and pray to Jesus and Mary” and praise the Trinity believe they are doing the right thing too! They too will say the Bible does not forbid these things! Satan is a masterful deceiver.
Anna,
Your quote:
“How clever Satan is. He has disguised something unholy and made it appear to be holy!”
I have just this to say. “How clever Satan is. He has discussed something holy and made it appear to be unholy!”
Anna,
You are throwing the baby out with the wash water by not celebrating the wonderful miraculous birth of our Lord Jesus Christ because of what the world does. A life lived through spite is not good. Please learn to love as our Lord has taught us.
David this is Jacqueline and I see your answer back to me but it is not dealing with the issues.
It is nothing but a long drawn out Jw.org site presentation. You are playing to the audience trying to get your witness site reprinted on here.
It won’t work with me. I know how you operate. Since you are out of New York ask them to let us reply on their website. This one is not for them, they missed the opportunity to get this name when they were trying to warn us against the internet so we wouldn’t see the truth.
I don’t have time to discuss anything with a witness that is satisfied with what they believe and I think you are, from your writings.
The ministry that I have is to the wound inflicted ones that have LEFT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, the dangerous and destructive sect of the watchtower witnesses.
Now I speak only for myself not for Br. Peter or anyone else here. I don’t try to change a person’s point of view. I also don’t have discussions with Jehovah witnesses as I have heard their rhetoric for 50 years and I am done with hearing it. You are abusive and I won’t put myself in an abusive situation that I have left. You don’t return to abuse, I associate with those that have the same healing needs as I do on this site.
In comments to me, from you I will not help you spit out your canned replies. So I am done, I will not waste my time and cast my pearls to swine as Jesus advised.You have a website where we can’t comment so fair play when it comes to me only. Others may feel different.
I hate to take this stance but if your website (and I will give you a promo here) JW.org can’t provide your spiritual food or your organization I can’t help you. You need to be honest and frank and let us know what has happened to you that caused you to come to us for spiritual food. Going back and forth with you repeating your long drawn out posts is futile unless you tell us what is wrong then maybe we can help you. Your target audience should be Jehovah witnesses and those wanting to become one. You should use JW website to spew your doctrine.
Unless you open up the blog section to let me comment I will not help you push your rhetoric. Why can’t we reply on the Jw website? Why can’t you use your site to get the ones back that has left David?
Just another loving thought on Jesus to keep in mind as we review his birth as man to start the journey of redeeming Adam and all mankind.
AT CHRISTMASTIDE REMEMBER TO KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE
“Let your moderation be known unto all men.” – Philippians 4:5
“It was not the babe of Bethlehem that was to bless the world, nor the boy of Nazareth, nor the young man of Capernaum, but it was to be a full-grown man, a mature one, whose sacrifice would offset the sin of Adam, redeem him and his posterity and satisfy the demands of divine justice against the condemned race. So, then, while interested in everything pertaining to the divine character and plan, while interested to know how Jesus grew in stature and in wisdom as he approached the maturity of manhood at thirty years, while interested to know about his miraculous birth, our chief interest in all of these things is that they established our faith in him as the man Christ Jesus– that he was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners, and therefore able to make the atonement sacrifice–to give his own life a ransom, a corresponding price for the life of Adam, and thus for the life of the whole race of Adam, in his loins at the time of his transgression and thus sharers with him in his condemnation.
We do well, therefore, to dwell less upon the birth and infancy of Jesus and more and more to grasp the precious themes set before us in the Gospel, of which the cross is the great point or center of interest. Similarly we regard all the followers of the Lord–not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. True, we are glad to know of some that even before their consecration and baptism of the Spirit were noble minded, virtuous and irreproachable, and we have a measure of regret when we hear of some who had a contrary disposition to this; nevertheless our interest centers around the fact that they did turn from sin, did become the Lord’s followers and that they have been begotten of his holy Spirit. In this we rejoice. Thus we know each other according to the Spirit as New Creatures in the Lord, and thus we know our Lord as the New Creature, as the Apostle suggests, “Though we have known Christ after the flesh, henceforth know we him so no more.” Our special interest centers in our Lord from the moment of his anointing of the Spirit until he completed the work there begun three and one-half years later on the cross, crying, “It is finished.” Our interest still holds beyond that point in the resurrection of our Lord from the dead, and the evidence thus given us that the begetting of the Spirit at his baptism became the birth of the Spirit at his resurrection, and that he was thus the first born from the dead, born of the Spirit to spirit conditions. Then our hope is to follow in his steps, and thus realize the promise that if we suffer with him we shall also be glorified together and share his Kingdom and his nature in glory.”
— R3290
Christmas is a patently pagan holiday. Christmas roots and origins are from pagan religious roots, adopted by the apostatized Christian church in the 4th century. The date December 25th has NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ, but was taken as the false Christian church COMPRISED with the pagan religious populace, which celebrated the birthday of the demon Sun-God. Santa Clause has NOTHING to do with the biblical birth of Christ. Christmas trees have NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ. Mistletoes have NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ. Christmas wreaths have NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ. Anyone doing just basic research will find they all originated from pagan religious practices which were accepted by the apostatized church as one of their main methods to gain converts. In short, Christmas is a pagan holiday, which has NOTHING to do with biblical Christianity, and was unknown to the early Christians of the 1st century. It was not until the 4th century, that the Church, which had fallen to apostasy, that it is first recorded that the date December 25th was accepted as a birthday for the birth of Christ.
In the NT you find NOTHING stating that the first Christians celebrated Christmas. Not even a hint. The book of Acts, which includes about 40 years of the history of the first Christians, indicates that they preached, as active witnesses of Jesus’ resurrection, and as a result Witnesses of the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, preaching that the God of Israel had raised his Son & Servant, Jesus Christ, from the dead, and that Jesus was now alive, having been appointed by God as Savior and Chief of the Christian Congregation. They preached this good news of God’s Kingdom, and about Jesus resurrection, from door to door. “13″The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, The God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Yeshua, him whom you handed over and rejected in the presence of Pilatus, when he had rightly judged to release him.” 14″But you rejected The Holy One and The Righteous One and you demanded a man who was a murderer to be given to you.” 15″And you killed him, The Ruler of Life, whom God raised from among the dead, and we are all his witnesses.” 16″And by the faith of his Name, this one whom you see and know, he has restored and healed, and faith in him has given him this health before you all.”
17″But now my brothers, I know that because of deception you did this as your Rulers did.” 18″And God has thus fulfilled the thing which before was preached by the mouth of all The Prophets, that his Messiah would suffer.” 19″Repent therefore and be converted, so that your sins will be blotted out, and the times of rest from before the face of THE LORD JEHOVAH will come to you.” 20″And he shall send to you The One who was prepared * for you, Yeshua The Messiah.” (Act 3:13-20 – Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
“42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.” (Acts 5:42 – ESV). The apostle Paul said that he “ 20…did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 20:20, 21 – ESV) The book of Acts also says “23When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets…..and welcomed all who came to him, 31proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance. (Acts 28:23;31 – ESV) 1 Corinthians 11:23-30, as well as other places in the NT, indicate that the first century Christians celebrated the Lord’s supper, a simple ritual using red wine and unleavened bread to remember what Jesus had done for their behalf and for behalf of humankind, dying on the tree for our salvation. But nothing is said about any celebration of Jesus birth by the first century Christians. Mary and Joseph never celebrated the anniversary of his birthday, nor did his apostles and early disciples. Read the entire NT from Matthew to Revelation, and NOTHING is said about an annual celebration of Jesus’ birth. But why? The historical facts indicate that Jews and the first century Christians did not celebrate birthdays. On the other hand, birthday festivals were celebrated by the pagans, and they were usually connected with the religious celebration of the birth of a false god, a demonic god that they worshipped. Origen of Alexandria, a professed Christian of the 2nd century, writing about Leviticus 12:1–8, commented that Scripture mentions only sinners as CELEBRATING their birthdays, namely Pharaoh, who then had his chief baker hanged (Genesis 40:20–22) and Herod, who then had John the Baptist beheaded (Mark 6:21–27). –( see Origen, “Levit., Hom. VIII”; Migne P.G., XII, 495. partially quoted in “Natal Day”, The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911). In 303, Arnobius, another professed Christian, ridiculed the idea of celebrating the birthdays of gods, indicating that Arnobius was unaware of any nativity celebration. (McCracken, George, Arnobius of Sicca, the Case Against the Pagans, Volume 2, p. 83, . “Therefore if this is a fact, how can Jupiter be god if it is agreed that god is everlasting, while the other is represented by you to have a birthday, and frightened by the new experience, to have squalled like an infant.” G. Brunner, “Arnobius eine Zeuge gegen das Weihnachtsfest? ” JLW 13 (1936) pp. 178–181.) It was not until 354 that we find a record of December 25th as the accepted date of celebration of the birth of Jesus. But by that time the Church had apostatized, compromising the Bible teachings with Pagan religious Bablyonish ideas, teaching that Jesus was GOD, a Trinity, and therefore, they began to celebrate the birth of Jesus as God, Christmas, an absolute celebration with pagan religion contamination in order to appease the pagan religious populace of their time. “December 25 is referred to in documents as Christmas Day in A.D. 354 for the first time. Under the Roman emperor Justinian [A.D. 527-565] it was recognized as an official holiday. An old Roman festival played a a major part in the choice of this particular day. December 25 in ancient Rome was the ‘Dies Natali Invictus,’ ‘the birthday of the unconquered,’ the day of the winter solstice and at the same time, in Rome, the last day of the Saturnalia, which had long since degenerated into a week of unbridled carnival…” (The Bible As History,by Werner Keller, page 331). Jesus was NOT born in the winter as Keller goes on to point out in his book:
“Meteorologists as well as historians and astronomers have something of importance to contribute to this question of fixing the date of the birth of Jesus. According to St. Luke: ‘And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night’ (Luke 2:8).
“Meteorologists have made exact recordings of the temperature at Hebron. This spot in the southern highlands of Judah exhibits the same climatic conditions as Bethlehem, which is not far distant. The temperature readings show over a period of three months that the incidence of frost is as follows: December — 2.8 degrees; January — 1.6 degrees; February —0.1 degrees. The first two months have also the greatest rainfall in the year: approximately 6 inches in December, and nearly 8 inches in January. According to all existing information the climate of Palestine has not changed appreciably in the last 2,000 years, consequently modern meteorological observations can be taken as a basis.
“At Christmas-time Bethlehem is in the grip of frost, and in the Promised Land no cattle would have been in the fields in that temperature. This fact is born out by a remark in the Talmud to the effect that in that neighborhood the flocks were put out to grass in March and brought in again at the beginning of November. They remained out in the open for almost eight months.
“Around Christmas-time nowadays both animals and shepherds are under cover in Palestine.
“What St. Luke tells us points therefore to the birth of Jesus having taken place BEFORE the onset of winter…” (Bible as History, pages. 331-332). Some scholars agree that Jesus was born around the first week of October, but certainly not in December.
In the book History of Rome, by Michael Grant, we read “Yet there was also another pagan belief during this same epoch, that much more nearly competed with Christ for the control of the Western world. This was the cult of the Sun, which was revered by millions of the inhabitants of the Roman Empire, and its religion for a time even became the state worship….
“In Rome, the divinity of the Sun came very early on; and then, centuries afterwards, in the superb dome of Hadrian’s Pantheon, the central opening, surrounded by star-like rosettes, represented the solar orb….Before long, the emperor Aurelian established a massive temple of the Unconquerable Sun as the central and focal point of the entire religious system of the state (274). The birthday of the god was to be on DECEMBER 25, AND THIS, TRANSFORMED INTO CHRISTMAS DAY, WAS ONE OF THE HERITAGES THAT CHRISTIANITY OWED TO HIS CULT” (p. 391- 392, emphasis mine).
Historian Jack Finegan agrees. In his book Myth & Mystery: An Introduction to the Pagan Religions of the Biblical World. Finegan writes:
“…But the worship of the sun-god continued widely throughout the empire, and under Aurelian (A.D. 270-275) the cult was restored to its former high estate. In the year 274 Aurelian declared the god — now called Deus Sol Invictus — the official deity of the Roman Empire; he built a splendid temple of the sun in Rome…and set the sun’s birthday celebration (naturalis solis invicti) ON DECEMBER 25, the date then accepted for the winter solstice (also in his solar character the BIRTHDAY OF MITHRAS). In the time of Constantine the cult of Deus Sol Invictus was still at its height, and the portrait of the sun-god was on the coins of Constantine….Likewise it must have been in this time and with the intent to transform the significance of AN EXISTING SACRED DATE that the birthday of Jesus, which had been celebrated in the East on January 6…was placed in Rome ON DECEMBER 25, THE DATE OF THE BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION OF SOL INVICTUS. This date appears in a list of dates probably compiled in A.D. 336 and published in the Roman city calendar, edited by Filocalus, for the year 354” (Finegan, p. 211-212, emphasis mine). As “Christianity” became a state religion, it also became PAGANIZED. Jesse Hurlbut dicusses the results of Constantine’s making Christianity the state religion, free from all persecution. From that time, he points out, the church became totally subverted by politics and self-seeking opportunists.
“…the establishment of Christianity as the state religion became a CURSE.
“Everybody sought membership in the church, and nearly everybody was received. Both good and bad, sincere seekers after God and hypocritical seekers after gain, rushed into the communion. Ambitious, worldly, unscrupulous men sought office in the church for social and political influence….
‘The services of worship increased in splendor, but were less spiritual and hearty than those of former times. The forms and ceremonies of PAGANISM GRADUALLY CREPT INTO THE WORSHIP. Some of the OLD HEATHEN FEASTS BECAME CHURCH FESTIVALS WITH CHANGE OF NAME AND OF WORSHIP” (Hurlbut, The Story of the Christian Church, p. 79, emphasis mine). That is why Will Durant, the renowned historian, in his historical masterpiece, The Story of Civilization, wrote in volume III, entitled Caesar and Christ, that in the new “church” that developed in the Roman Empire, the original teaching of Jesus was lost or rejected, and replaced with Greek philosophy and thought; the “Law” of the Jews was rejected, and, he writes,
“…the god Christ was assimilated to the religious and philosophical traditions of the Hellenistic mind. Now the PAGAN WORLD — even the anti-Semitic world — could accept him as its own.
“CHRISTIANITY DID NOT DESTROY PAGANISM; IT ADOPTED IT. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the Church…the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the Mass. Other PAGAN cultures contributed to the syncrestic result. From Egypt came the idea of a divine trinity…from Egypt the adoration of the Mother and Child…From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother….The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds. Christianity was the last great creation of the ancient PAGAN world” (p. 595). Yes!!! Psuedo Christianity adopted PAGANISM, it did not DESTROY IT. That is why we have Santa Clause, Dec. 25th date, Christmas Trees, Mistle Tones, Christmas Wreaths, Stripping Santa Clauses, etc, all adopted from Paganism, none of which HAS NOTHING TO DO with the birth of Christ. It is so sad that many people who longer believe in God and Jesus, will cite the fairy tales of Santa Claus and reindeer, etc, as one of main reasons they reject the belief in God and Jesus. Christmas has drawn people away from God and Christ, definite proof that the pagan Holiday had NOTHING to do with biblical Christianity.
Like the Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses, the early Christian Witnesses did NOT celebrate Christmas. As I pointed out earlier, there is NOTHING in the NT or the Christian Greek Scriptures indicating that they celebrated the birth Jesus. On the contrary, they celebrated the memorial of his death AKA the Last Supper, as indicated in the pages of the NT. Worldbook Encyclopedia says concerning the early Christians, “The exact date of Christ’s birth is not known. The early Christians did NOT celebrate His birth, because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom. “( see the article “Christmas”). Were the NT Christians grinches for not celebrating Christmas? Were the 1st century Christians grinches for not celebrating Christmas? Was Rutherford a Grinch, when after reviewing closely the origins of Christmas, for coming to the conclusion that Christmas is not really a Christian holiday, but a holiday based on a pagan origins that was adopted by the apostatized Church?
The book The Two Bablyons, by Alexander Hislop was sometimes cited by Protestants and Evangelicals in books written in the 1950’s and 1960’s, when writing against the Roman Catholic Church. They would quote Hislop in references to the pagan worship of Mother and Child and its link with the pagan god/goddesses. Protestants and Evangelicals would quote those passages to prove that the Catholic Church became an apostate Church. But they would ignore Hislop’s book when he referred to the common “Christian” holidays of today, including Christmas. Says Hislop, “Indeed, it is admitted by the most learned and candid writers of all parties that the day of our Lord’s birth cannot be determined, and that within the Christian Church no such festival as Christmas was ever heard of till the third century, and that not till the fourth century was far advanced did it gain much observance. How, then, did the Romish Church fix on December the 25th as Christmas-day? Why, thus: Long before the fourth century, and long before the Christian era itself, a festival was celebrated among the heathen, at that precise time of the year, in honour of the birth of the son of the Babylonian queen of heaven; and it may fairly be presumed that, in order to conciliate the heathen, and to swell the number of the nominal adherents of Christianity, the SAME FESTIVAL WAS ADOPTED by the Roman Church, giving it only the name of Christ. This tendency on the part of Christians to MEET PAGANISM HALF-WAY was very early developed….Upright men strove to stem the tide, but in spite of all their efforts, the apostasy went on, till the Church, with the exception of a small remnant, was submerged under Pagan superstition” (p. 93).
“That Christmas was originally a Pagan festival, is beyond all doubt. The time of the year, and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin. In Egypt, the son of Isis, the Egyptian title for the queen of heaven, was born at this very time, ‘about the time of the winter solstice.’ The very name by which Christmas is popularly known among ourselves — Yule-day — proves at once its Pagan and Babylonian origin. ‘Yule’ is the Chaldee name for an ‘infant’ or ‘little child;’ and as the 25th of December was called by our Pagan Anglo- Saxon ancestors, ‘Yule-day,’ or the “Child’s day,’ and the night that preceded it, ‘Mother-night,’ long BEFORE they came in contact with Christianity, that sufficiently proves its real character” (pp. 93-94 – Emphasis added).
Writes T. G. Crippen in Christmas and Christmas Lore,
“Now in December and the beginning of January there were several festivals which were intimately associated with the daily life of the Roman people. First, from the 17th to the 21st December, was the Saturnalia, the great Roman holiday….One might call it the Feast of Topsy-turveydom; when slaves were allowed for a few days to enjoy the semblance of freedom, were waited upon by their masters, and chose from amongst themselves a mock king to preside over their revels. Next, on the 22nd, came Sigillaria, the Feast of Dolls, when a fair was held, and dolls and other toys, mostly of earthenware, were given to children. Then, on 25th, came Brumalia, otherwise Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun, when the days began to lengthen after the solstice….It is believed to have been instituted … by the emperor Aurelian, in honour of Mithras, the Persian sun-god…” (p. 8-9).
Some tend to ignore or bury the pagan origins of Christmas, and say that important thing is that we are celebrating the birth of Christ, we are not celebrating the birth of the sun-god. But that ignores the whole history of how the celebration came to be adopted by the Church. It is a historical fact that Church had adopted false pagan teachings, and with that the Pagan holidays. The pagan holidays were masked as “Christian” festivals, exactly like a wolf hides itself with sheeps clothing. (Matt. 7:15) The adoption of Dec. 25th by the now pseudo Christian Church came at a time when they adopted the false teaching of the Trinity, the teaching the God will burn forever and torture forever human souls that are immortal; that the wicked are as much immortal and have eternal life like the saved; etc, etc. It is a basic historical fact that Christmas as well as Easter and Halloween, and other holidays are based in pagan roots. Even in grade school, my history teaching talked about the pagan origins of Christmas, so any grade school student, attending a good school, like I did you know that. In my university studies I took an elective course on history of popular and our text book had a whole chapter on the paganism of Christmas- In fact the title of chapter was the “Paganism of Christmas.” Some cite the same texts Ron Rhodes quotes such as Col. 2:16 “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—” However, the historical context of that text, as well as Romans 14:4-6 is referring to the Jewish Holy days, including the Sabbath, which some Jewish converted felt compelled to still keep. They were advised that they can, although they were no longer required to do so. They were able to keep observing certain days as long as they did not insist that they are requirement and as long as they did not force others to observe or judge others for not observing them. IT DID NOT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CELEBRATING FESTIVALS with PAGAN origins!!! Surely if a 1st century Christian said it was OK to celebrate the pagan festival of the sun god, he or she will be judged and possibly expelled if not repentant from the 1st century Christian congregation. Surely, if a 1st century Christian drank too much wine, and got intoxicated, he or she will be expelled for being a drunkard, being judged for what he drank, unless he repented (1 Cor. 5:9-13) As for the 1st century Christian point of view on accepting a festival with pagan religious origins, the apostle Paul also wrote:
14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15What accord has Christ with Belial?b Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16What agreement has the temple of God with idols? (2 Cor. 6:14-16)
Yes , what accord does the Birth of Christ have with the birth of pagan sun god? What accord does Jesus have with Mithras? What accord does the birth of Christ have to do Santa Clause? What accord does the birth of Christ have to do with non-biblical pagan date of Dec. 25th? Christmas trees? Christmas lights? NO accord whatsoever…none of pagan religious customs are mentioned in the Bible, and therefore, millions of Christians around the world refuse to celebrate Christmas. They preach the good news of God’s incoming Kingdom in the hand of Jesus Christ, all of which is possible due to the fact the Jesus was risen from the grave. They have nothing to do with Christmas, whose origins are patently pagan.
It is clear then, that Christmas has NOTHING to do with the biblical birth of Christ – He was not born in the Winter on December 25th; He is the Son of God, not God, and he did not command his disciples to celebrate his birth; only the pagans celebrated a festivals of the birth of their false demonic gods; the celebration was unknown to the early Christians; while early Christians did celebrate festivals, such as weddings, they avoided any pagan religiously tainted celebration and did not celebrate birthdays; although they were not required to do so, some early Christians kept the Sabbath and the early Jewish celebrations, but only the holy celebrations of God were celebrated by some. Santa Claus, Christmas trees, mistletoes, etc have NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ. Christmas is a pagan holiday hidden in a mask of Christian, much like a wolf covered in a lamb’s mask.
David thank you for commenting. You are aware that most on this site know all the things you stated. They have a witness background. You stated only pagan birthdays are mentioned in the bible but Jesus birth was not pagan. Surely Jesus would have mentioned not to celebrate birthdays or the early Christian writers. It was an ordinary everyday occurrence and they addressed the issue with Christians who regarded days in different ways, showing it doesn’t matter. (See article above for scriptures.) Were you aware that judge Rutherford often outlawed things upon the word of just one man.?He did so with the cross and with the blood transfusion doctrine. God has always used blood to save a life.
Are you aware that you are deep into paganism when you use and say the days of the week and the months? Were you aware Rutherford instituted a new calendar that he felt was theocratic because of the deep pagan connections but dropped it because nobody cared. Why wasn’t he consistent and refused to let his followers say Saturnalia (Saturday) or the god juno (June). Because everything you and I have in our lives likely didn’t originate with the Jews. The Ford Taurus car, olympia fields station, I could go on and on.
The article above mentions that the apostles DID deal with people getting upset over others regarding one day holier than another or the same as another.
The conclusion was to not disobey your conscience. Why is the bottom of your shoe called a sole.?. In fact how much time have you spent researching all the pagan origins of almost everything in your life. It would consume you.
That is why Christians were encouraged to eat meat sacrificed to the idols if their conscience permitted.
Are to go backwards here or follow your own conscience and be convinced. Most everyone in all religions know the origin of xmas differently. For the view you present and the books to support I have seem at least 10 more entirely different origins with support.
Birthdays is the issue not all the trappings and there is nowhere in the bible saying not to observe a birthday. In fact it could be mentioned because it was just a common practice among mankind only to control peoples personal lives and break his followers down with additional rules, Rutherford sucked the good out of life, he was the Grinch indeed.
David please do not think we are asking or saying you are to observe any day or disregard another. You are free now in Christ, able to break the shackles of the “Flock Book” (secret elder’s book with more rules than the law code) and an organization that says it is the earthly part of Christ kingdom already set up on earth.
You have taken the first step by at least reading something different and we want to welcome you in Christ. Sincerely Jacqueline
Jacqueline, Let me just clarify what I said, I did not say that just pagan birthdays are mentioned in the Bible, but quoted from a source (see my post) which alluded to what Origen of Alexandria stated back in the 2nd century, that only the birthdays of sinners (may be interpreted as pagans) were CELEBRATED. While the Bible does frequently mentions and announcements the birth of children, including that of the savior, that early Christian writer points out that only 2 BIRTHDAY ANNIVERSERIES are alluded to in the Scriptures and both were by non-believers. And that early Christian writer is correct – the Bible only mentions the birthday/anniversary celebrations of 2 individuals and both were pagan. Also you refer to the calendar which Rutherford supposedly at one time advocated. However, it was just one article written, if I recall correctly, by a CJ Woodworth, which advocated the name changes to the days, weeks, months, etc. BUT, and, most importantly, Rutherford eventually had the sense to get rid of it, and go by the standard Gregorian calendar. You can’t compare the days of the week, which are not celebrated or seen, for that matter, as religious days of the week, to that of holidays which have patently pagan origins to MERE NAMES of the days of the week. Rutherford, on carefully examining the historical evidence was compelled to write against the celebrating Christmas and later Easter, both of which have pagan origins, and were unknown to the early Christian Church. If according to your thinking, Rutherford was a Grinch, I guess then you must think that the early Christian Church apostles and members were Grinches, since they did NOT celebrate birthday anniversaries, including Christmas. I have read Christmas treatises and papers written by Catholics, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, rabbis, Adventists, and other Protestants, and all concur that Christmas was a holiday unknown to the first century Christian Congregation, and was adopted later from the Pagan Holiday of the worship of the demon sun-god, only changing the label to “Christian”, in an attempt to attract the Pagan populace to the now apostate Church. The early Church allowed ONLY the holy days to be observed, including the Sabbath, for those Jewish converts who still felt they should keep due to their weak consciences. However, Christians were not required to observe those days and celebrations, and that was understood by the Christians of the 1st century, so they would not impose others stating they must observe the Sabbath, etc. But in writing in Col. 2:16 and other texts the apostles WERE not referring to PAGAN-Religiously oriented festivals, such as the festival of the Sun-God or Mirthas. Surely the Christian congregation would have judged someone for partaking in such a celebration. I think, that Christmas, with all it’s Pagan connections, and the fact the apostles also warned of the apostasy, and the connection of the apostasy with introduction of false teachings and pagan connected festivals to the Church back in the 4th century, shows that we should not celebrate it. “What accord does Christ have with Belial”, or for that matter, what accord does Christ have with the Sun-god? None whatsoever. The celebration was unknown to the 1st Century Christian Congregation, and therefore, they did not celebrate it. The fact that they did not celebrate did not make Grinches, and therefore, Rutherford was not the Grinch that stole Christmas. True Christians always have their own celebrations and parties – they are not party woopers. Like the early Christians, we enjoy get gatherings, dinners, weddings, etc. We do enjoy life and do not need to celebrate any holiday that bother our consciences in order to be happy.
I agree David with your last statement “We do enjoy life and do not need to celebrate any holiday that bother our consciences in order to be happy”. No one should do any thing that bothers their conscience or prohibit others from following their conscience. That is called Freedom and liberty in Christ.
As I stated before most of our audience are witnesses and know the origin of the various trappings of the commercial holiday. That’ why we focus on the intent, the birth among Christians for all things we do non Jewish originate with the pagans.
There are many Christians, including the movie industry (you quoted outside sources, so this why I feel at liberty to mention movies) that use this time of year to bring people attention to the birth of Christ. One, it makes sense to do it now instead of in May. Two, many Christian will go the their house of worship on December 25th to celebrate the Saviour’s coming into this world so there could be the death and ransoming of Adam and all of those that came from him as father.
So we basically agree with the article. I nor any on this site feel impelled to encourage you to celebrate Christmas. I am almost seventy and have never celebrated but have always respected my few non witness relatives, co-workers and employees right, to do as their conscience move them and to have the spirit of the holiday and enjoy their family and do what I never had the opportunity to do; Hail Jesus in all his aspects, his birth, his ministry, death on the cross and entrance into heaven itself to sit down at the right hand of God and get on with the Divine Plan of the ages as set out by his father and ours Jehovah.
The Bible does not prohibit the celebration of the birth of Jesus and neither should we add that prohibition, but each one should be thoroughly convinced in their own mind. Any birthday mentioned would have to be a non worshiper or pagan as only the Jewish nation was non pagan, so I have never understood that analogy. It would have been the proper and appropriate time for Jehovah to mention not to celebrate. But something good happened for Joseph on that Birthday the one that would remember him was spared, that was what it was about not about not celebrating birthdays. This is a witness thing. God never gave it a thought to warn future generations. Jesus surely would have mentioned not to celebrate birthdays when John was beheaded as he was setting up the Christian congregation. He didn’t so I don’t push or add what he saw no need to speak about. We don’t really know all customs of the early Christians as many still were struggling with not being of Judaism and being a Christian. They impaled him anew every time they went back to the law code then returned to the Christian congregation. So birthdays only bothered the new religion created in 1931 and it controls and makes them visible but not for good works but for a day of one’s birth.
This discussion has allowed many sides to be presented and Christ Jesus has been brought to the forefront to the praise of Jehovah our God. I have enjoyed the active and sometime passionate discussions, David, I hope you have also.
May I ask, are you currently a Jehovah witnesses, perhaps you could share your journey that got you to this site. Sincerely Jacqueline
Jacqueline,
You appear to be confusing the birth of baby, with the annual celebration of one’s birthday or anniversary of birth. Of course, there is joy when a baby born; parents and family are overjoyed at the birth of a newborn, and Witnesses usually bring gifts to the parents and newborn. Of course, there was great joy when Jesus was born on earth, the one who was born and sent to save the world had arrived on earth!! However, we find no evidence nor records that early Christians celebrated the anniversary of peoples’ birthdays. Only record in the Bible are 2 pagan birthday celebrations, and Christians and the early Hebrews were told not to follow the way of the nations. The book Panati’s Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things pages 31-33 states that it was mainly the Egyptians and Greeks that celebrated birthdays, in most cases only the royal families, and the pagans celebrated the birthdates of their false gods. It goes on to say that early Hebrews and Christians did not celebrate birthdates. In latter years there are records of celebration of the birthdates of saints, but even then, it was actually referring to a celebration of their death dates, since they believed they were reborn in heaven. It was not until the 4th century (by now the Church had been fully influenced by pagan religious ideas), that they started to celebrate birthdays, including Christmas, originally known as Yuletide. There are so many sources that make it so clear that the early Christians did not celebrate birthday anniversaries, including Christmas. I think that is abundantly clear. No mention is made in the NT of any Christian celebrating his birthday nor that of Christ. Why is that? I think the answer is clear.
As you should already know, Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses will not impose their views on others. We are not like the early Evangelicals of the early American colonies (AKA Pilgrims) who rejected Christmas and imposed and shoved down the throat of other their point of view, by enacting state laws prohibiting the celebration. Witnesses are politically neutral, and do not believe in imposing their views on non-Witnesses. I have relatives & friends that celebrate it, and I respect their right to do so. But as true Christians we are not part of world and will not follow the customs and way of the world.
Yes, I am associated with the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also did find this discussion enjoyable, although I disagree with some of your points of view.
Hi David I am on the study now and we were discussing your point of view before we began. I thought you were a witness. I was one for over 60 years. The things you state about the stance of the witnesses is known by all on this site. You are actually talking to witnesses ex-witnesses and this is a Bible Student site. The admin of this site are from the original Bible Students that generally accept the understanding of Br. Russell. I was more a Bible Student my first twelve years of life and a witness for the next 50 years as my mother went over to the organization.
Of course you are aware that Br. Rutherford changed completely his understanding of scripture when he wanted to set up an organization. So I know in the fullest what the witnesses believe and most of these readers do also.
We are presenting something different from the thinking of Br. Rutherford. You mention that the witnesses don’t try to push what they believe on this but most schools and jobs walk on chips when it comes to treading on these beliefs.
That however is not an issue as they thread lightly on Muslim, Jewish faith and others. So what you believe is not an issue with us as we hold some although very few doctrine in common. The trinity (no) Paradise earth, the 144,000 but still a variation.
We are here not for a witness such as yourself but those that have left and want to know what was really taught from the Bible by the early brothers to harmonize what they have been told.
We have many that have been hurt by the Shunning polices of the governing body and we try to help and steady them by helping with spiritual aid. I especially interact with the many pedophile victims that come to us and want someone to just listen and understand.
The Elder body and the Chicago Bible Student ecclias saw a need after getting so many asking for solace and comfort. That is why I tell you to state what the witnesses believe to witnesses will cause them to skip thru your comments and miss something as they know it already. Thes are your very strong witnesses that have branched out to search for a different point of view from the witnesses.
Presentation of the witness view is what you present and I don’t personally have a problem as an attending witness should present that view.
Our target audience is: those that have left on their own the thought process of the witnesses as presented by Rutherford and the now governing body.
To get in a discussion with a die- hard witness can be futile. Would you agree with this?
I am loving having what I detect is an elder perhaps on here but We will not put any further burdens on these friends but what Jehovah himself in the Bible prohibits.
He is all powerful and isn’t afraid to say don’t you do this or that. We really don’t have to wonder or surmise what he meant something, especially when it was just so common. He had many occasions to say no and also the early church when dealing with the circumcision issue. With Eve, Job’s children, Joseph’s cup bearer and with John. But he saw no need and was silent on a prohibition.
It is not a salvation point if you celebrate the birth of Christ and if others do not.
David, Rutherford made everything he could control a focal point of his newly formed organization. These little nuances does not a holy person make. He should have focus more and now even the governing body on the development of the character of the witnesses. The child molestation would not have gripped the religion if it’s people were focus on personal responsiblity to God. His elders would have compassion for the mentally ill and poor ones would not be put out in the street door knocking to enrich the coffers of the billionaire organization. Many women working, pioneering and trying to care for their household. I am hitting at the base of the problems more important than whether or not they celebrate their child’s birthday.
There has been many article written about this in the publications but hardly any hitting Hard and ruthlessly the pedophiles that lines the congregations unidentified.
If I speak with a witness I like to talk about something that Jehovah does speak about not what my brothers do in their personal lives even married persons in their personal relationship.
Could we ask please what has caused you to branch out? Also I feel others might want to comment to you also, so it might not be me answering you back right away and let them have their say or perhaps ask you some questions, would that be okay with you? Sincerely Jacqueline
PS: David I didn’t forget your thought on not finding evidence of early Christian celebrating birthdays. Such a common thing would hardly be worth a mention if it was common among humans. This is really a Br. Rutherford thing, witnesses find this hard to understand. Job’s children, had a party on each of their days. Every time birthdays are mentioned God missed an opportunity to prohibit it. Only Rutherford while forming his organization with men that had knowledge of how to make everyone think, walk, talk the same identical thought, his, and lose over time the ability to present their opinion. Today 70 year old men cow down to the organization when they know it is wrong and abusive. Can you perhaps give some insight on this?
Jacqueline,
True there were some changes made by Rutherford, but as Russell himself said the “light of the truth gets brighter”…Russell himself said that he would stop teaching certain things if his understanding grew greater, and if he found out certain things were in error. The light of the truth did not stop getting brighter after Russell’s death. (Prov. 4:18) Both Frederick Franz, and AH MacMillan, both he met and knew Russell, said that Russell had envisioned, through his Bible studies and understanding, that a great work lay ahead for those associated with the true Christian Congregation. Matthew 24:14 says that the “good news of the Kingdom” will be preached to all nations, and then the end of the age or system of things will come. I believe that evidence show beyond a doubt, that one Christian, the one Christian association, which became more and more organized, as required, since God is not a God of disorder, to accomplish this work and has continue to do so are the Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses. Rutherford and his early associates recognized that Russell did teach many fundamental Bible truths, including a Uni-Personal God named Jehovah, Jesus as the One sent to the world to save the world, Jesus as God’s Only-Beggotten Son, God’s Kingdom-government, paradise earth, soul dying, the heavenly and general resurrections, etc. Those our held, and widely taught to millions all over the world by the One Christian association organized to do God’s will, the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In over 400 languages, the good news of God’s Kingdom are being preached by God’s and Jesus’ Witnesses who like the apostles cannot stop speaking and preaching of what they learned and heard (Acts 4:20). No one is forced to preach the good news; those who truly believed are excited by it and are moved by the holy spirit to preach. It is not Rutherford nor the Governing Body, as you seem to be saying, that motivates people to preach, but it is the good news that they hear that motivates them and move them to preach, and their love for their fellow human beings moves them to preach the good news. We see the excitement when a former Evangelical, gets reasonable answers from a Witness, and now can see that what he or she always read in their Bible, that Jesus is really the Son of God!! And that he is not part of a Trinity, but that Jesus really has a God, which is testified over and over again in the NT. The joy of preaching that good news was intensified during the Rutherford times, and has continued to this day in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Rutherford was correct in getting rid certain teachings, for instance, the Pyramid teaching which Russell held. Even Russell taught and emphasized that the Bible was the standard. And now the Bible is the standard we use for truth. In now over 500 languages the good news of God’s Kingdom is being preached. Even a book written by Evangelicals admitted that Jehovah’s Witnesses have really taken to heart the mission to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom. A Catholic priest once told me openly that the Witnesses are following the apostles by preaching in peoples houses and going door to door. A Pentecostal pastor said he wished his church members had the same zeal of the Witnesses in preaching their faith.
So, no, I think Rutherford, under guidance of the Bible, did the absolutely correct thing in guiding and structuring a Bible based organization to preach the good news, for that is the mission of the true Christian association. No other group does that. Even some Bible Students, including Dawn Bible Students, Chicago Bible Students, and other related groups have seen the light, and have concluded that Jehovah God must be using the Christian organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses since they are the only ones teaching millions the Bible truths, and giving a worldwide witness.
The Christian organization uses it funds, to help the poor (and that included non-Witnesses as well), publish and print publication by the millions which are generally handed free to the poor, teach millions to read and write such as what was done in Africa in last 5 decades, help others in cases of disaster, etc. All of that requires money, and the more well to do, or larger middle class Witnesses are more than happy to voluntarily help and donate money for this great cause of spreading the good news and helping others.
True Christian Witnesses do not feel they are being controlled; most Witnesses study and read the Bible very carefully; they probably also own more Bible versions/translations then any other group, and feel that what is being taught agrees with what the Bible says.
You mention recent pedophile cases and seem to be saying that because we are an “organization” and think in a “organization” mind set, that explains why there have, according to your view-if I am understanding correctly, why there have been cases of pedophiles that have come up in the news organization. An organization is a group or association of people organized to do a certain work or a achieve a certain goal. The Christian organization goal is to preach the good news of God’s Kingdom and make disciples of all nations. In order to that in a grand scale, as prophesied in the Bible, we must be organized. But within the organization, there are people, imperfect human beings, prone to sin and, in rare occasions, commit horrible crimes against children. Unrepentant sinners must be expelled from the congregation. (1 Cor. 5:9-13). Elders will do their best to urge them to repent, but if they refuse to repent, we must expel evildoer from our midst. Unlike most other churches and organizations, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses will expel or disfellowship pedophiles from their congregations, which means the pedophile’s name will be publicly announced from the platform, a talk will be given about his sin/crime, and once expelled from such a sin and crime, and even if he later repents, or claims to be repented, he or she will never be able to hold any children in the congregation in their laps, can only preach from door to door with 2 or more adults, cannot be alone with children, parents will be warned personally by him the elders, and the congregation will not protect such one from criminal prosecution by the state. Although, relatively rare, compared to other religious groups such as the Catholics, Southern Baptists (www.stopbaptistpredators.org), Pentecostals (see, for example, the book Brother Tony’s Boys), and others, there has been a few cases in which, sadly, some inside, or who were once inside, the organization have abused children. But rightly, they have been removed, expelled. If an abuser was an elder, his position will be removed, and even if he is later reinstated, he will never again be allowed to be an elder in the congregation. This was the stance of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses which was made public back in 1993. Other churches, including the Catholic church, started debating what to do about them after 2006. The Catholic Church has never expelled its pedophile priests, much less the so-called laity members. Priests punishment is that they are just demoted to become part of the laity, but are no expelled from the church. How wrong is that? Priests that have been known to abuse hundreds of children, and have gone to prison, are supported by the Catholic church, since they get food and shelter from the Catholic priestly homes when they are retired and elderly. Some churches, like the case of the Pentecostal minister, Tony Leyva, who actually confessed several times to sodomizing underage boys, were allowed to continue to preach as pastors, since they were supposedly repented, and since he was “already saved”. An evangelical pastor in a church near where I lived in downtown NYC, molested several girls for a period of at least 5 years. El Diario, reporting in the early 1980’s on the court case, mentioned that several church members and church leaders knew of his “shortcomings”, but felt he had repented each time he had fallen, and that in any case he was already “saved”, and they felt the could not “touch” an anointed one by God. That is the way most churches, sadly, think, which is why many pedophiles have penetrated the churches. The Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, due to their biblically based policy of expelling and exposing the pedophiles’ name publically from congregation platform, have a far less incidence of those type of cases compared to other groups. The Southern Baptist Convention refuses to keep a database of their pedophiles, so no record is kept of molesters within the church. Witnesses, on the other hand, have kept records of those who have molested, though very, very few in number. Those records include the names of prisoners, who later learned the truth, but were convicted of child abuse. Prior conduct of such ones, even though it was before they became Christian, disqualifies one from becoming an elder, and, when released from prison, the congregation elders will warn the parents of possible major weakness of said individual. Also, that individual, will be told by the elders, that due to his prior criminal conduct, that even though he was not in the truth when he abused a child, that the congregation will not feel comfortable with him sitting with children, being alone with children, and that he must always preach with at least 1 adult present. In that way, the Organization helps protect the children from potential abusers. No other group, that I am aware have, has such stringent but necessary policies, in view of what has been learned by secular authorities and others since the 1990’s.
“Even some Bible Students, including Dawn Bible Students, Chicago Bible Students, and other related groups have seen the light”.
Are you reading what we write at all???
We are the CHICAGO BIBLE STUDENTS AND YOU ARE TELLING AN UNTRUTH. Show us the written statement where we said this please. Br. Peter is an elder in Chicago Bible ecclia, he is speechless. Show us where The Dawn said this we will see each other at the convention or others please.
David again “you are preaching to the choir”, your audience is comprised of Jehovah witnesses and ex- JW so it might be better not to repeat what they have all heard for years. They will skip most of it if it looks like a talk, it might help to be specific with proof text.
(1)About early Bible students here is a more accurate history: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/bible-student-history/ http://heraldmag.org/2006_history/toc_history.htm accounts by actual Bible Student movement brothers some who were children and their parents.
Perhaps you could provide the proof of these questions please while I dissect and answer some of the pertinent points over time.
(2) What is the evidence that shows it is the Jehovah witnesses? (“I believe evidence show beyond a doubt”) even you are on this site to learn and you have learned from others.
(3) What is your proof for this statement? (“They are the only ones teaching millions”)Bible societies have printed bibles in almost every language and distributed, not dogma or indoctrination from magazines written by a hierarchy 7 pope system without anyone questioning them.
“Over 400 languages”. Other Bible societies probably has done it in more and before the corporation was formed by Rutherford before he moved to “Beth Sarim” with (2) 16 barrel carburetors when most affluent men of his time only had one.This organization continues to follow his extravagants. Known as “LITTLE VATICAN” by New York media.Like most worldly giant corporations and Tele- evangels living off the members.
(4) Who required an organization, scriptural proof text. (“organized as required”) Your scripture speaks of disorder not an organization. This was said because early Christians had a thinking brain and a thought on scripture, just need to wait their turn so that scriptures does not work here as proof text. YOU CAN’T express openly in a meeting any thought other than what the governing body teaches.Proof scriptures found within these articles: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/jehovahs-witnesses-answers/governing-body-answers/
(5)Matt 24:14 End of world or an end to preaching work? Which? Are not we all doing that? Witnesses knock on doors as a chosen method mostly.
(6)Witnesses point to the “ARK” as being the organization you must be in to be saved. The Bible says differently at:
1Pet. 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
A belief and faith in Christ as our means of salvation and a PERSONAL request to God for a clean conscience. Nothing about an organization or more accurately a Giant multi- billion dollar corporation. Jesus nor early Christian, didn’t need this, gotten and supported by the rank and file as the governing body hop their Jets now to Islands they own and don’t work a day.
(7)Acts 4:20 is referring to the early Christian congregation not to witnesses. I am teaching and preaching to you now and I am not a witness.
(8) There are other religions that don’t believe in a trinity. Witnesses believe “”Armageddon is Judgement day and little children and all other than them will die. Which is a worse teaching sounds like Hellfire doctrine with a spin, both to scare people.It is judgement on the systems and like any change of government the leaders go down but the people will learn what the New kingdom government requirements are in Millennium and must submit during the REAL Bible judgement day.(1,000years long) Proof scriptures contained within these articles: https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/category/armageddon-2/
(9) Please post the book by the Evangelicals so we can check. The society quotes authors and when brothers check it out it is never the truth but a mis quote. Please provide and we will find it.
I will stop here and post tomorrow to deal with your other points. Please feel free to stay organized so the 6,000 people visiting this site each month can follow you, if you could for us David. Thank you,Jacqueline
David you mentioned what they do for Africa, you shouldn’t. DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE COUNTLESS LIVES LOSS BECAUSE THE ORGANIZATION WAS AFRAID A .25 CARD EQUIVALENT TO OUR DRIVERS LICENSE, that had to be carried on them at all times like our ID. would take money out of their pocket. Hundreds were killed and loss all they had.This giant corporation said; oh we didn’t understand, when our governors signature is on all our licenses, they said it was political because of that signature. The African government stood up to this bully corporation from America, so don’t talk about Africa. Read about it here:
http://www.jwfiles.com/wt_control/malawi.htm
We had to shame them into helping build kingdom halls for the African brothers with their billions.
Raymond Franz gooverningbody member tells it all here: https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/in_search_of_christian_freedom_franz.pdf
PEDOPHILIA!!! These are the recent highlights for 2014, showing their continued contempt.
(A) This is how the governing body of the watchtower witnesses deals with the victims. https://www.watchtowerlies.com/how_do_jehovah_s_witnesses_deal_with_pedophilia_cases.html
(B)There is Barbara Anderson, Jim Bowen and I ,fall pretty close dealing with this issue and most of what you say on how it is handled tells me you are a very new witness and don’t know the history of their haughtiness in dealing with victims and the courts.(read point 3 briefs).
Read this site with 2 boxes of tissue in your hand: here you will see the actual news reports on TV.
http://www.silentlambs.org/
(1) It is alledged THE WITNESSES (not Jehovah’s, because that is the Jews, stole that name, another story) have more per capital than the Catholic Church, they are giant and the witnesses are very small.
You say you are better, how dare you say other Churches have pedophiles too! The witnesses according to their magazines are supposed to surpass the other religions.
The policies of the watchtower society and the governing body sickens me!I reported one of the first biggest case in 1988, it was my female neices!
(2)Candace Conti” $28 million dollars won aganist watchtower society; 90 pages with all the lies and elder’s and governing body letters.
http://jwleaks.org/candace-conti/
(3)The Zalkin Law Firm Wins $13.5 Million Default Judgment Against the Jehovah’s Witnesses Watchtower on behalf of Childhood Sexual Abuse Victim
Childhood Victim Suffered Sexual Abuse from his Bible Study Teacher and Ordained Minister of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/11/prweb12295835.htm
But the lawsuit does not seek damages from Campos himself, or even the Linda Vista congregation.
Instead, it names the defendant as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, the entity that oversees Jehovah’s Witness churches.
Zalkin said $10.5 million of the amount was for punitive damages as a result of the Watchtower’s response to the Campos scandal.
“Damages that reflect the reprehensible conduct of the Watchtower in how they covered this up for years and allowed multiple children to be injured,” said Zalkin. “They protected and harbored a criminal.”
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2014-09-29/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-victims-call-for-organisation-to-be-held-accountable/
(4)DOCUMENTARY AIRS DECEMBER 25TH, 2014, It will say it all.
https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2014/12/18/truth-be-told-televison-documentary-an-inside-view-of-jehovahs-witnesses/
The Catholic Church is coming out ahead in it’s filth at least they have feelings for their victims after being forced. Isn’t it ironic that a religion modeled after the Catholic Church is guilty of the same crimes against it’s members.
The society will alledgedly work to squash new items mentioning a religion in crimes.
http://watchtowernews.org/familymurders.htm
Flock book insert made public in australia:
http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/fcdc/inquiries/57th/Child_Abuse_Inquiry/Submissions/Steven_Unthank_Supp_A_Appendix_1.pdf
David – Nice to have your comments on our website. I am a Bible Student elder with the Chicago Bible Students congregation. Are you an elder as well?
I am glad you are here because I have a concern that I wanted to address with someone from the JW Organization. I am concerned that by not deviating from the Watchtower study material, many JWs are no longer studying the Bible itself.
For example I find it surprising that so many JWs who leave the organization no longer believe Jesus invisibly returned and seem ignorant on the scriptural evidence to support this view. I am amazed how every time they will quote that “no man knows the day or the hour.” When they were active JWs did they not know this verse existed or have an explanation for it?
I would like to know your opinion on this. Thanks.
Hi Peter, I hope you don’t mind me adding a view here, it might be the fact that it isn’t that they disbelieve with regards to the invisible parousia of Christ but maybe felt they have not recognized the season of which He is due to return or the season that was depicted for Jesus to arrive by means of the Watchtower prediction/understanding is no longer viable in their own understanding & may believe He is still yet to come.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – Your input is welcome. Your comment seems to indicate that many of these still believe in an invisible return, but just not yet. Also that perhaps the primary evidence of his return was the Watchtower Organization or Governing Body as the Faithful and Discrete Slave. So with rejection of the Faithful Slave comes rejection of the invisible presence now. I hope I captured your thought. If so, this explains the problem and that deeper study would benefit in establishing further evidence of His presence now (or some would say not). Thanks Daz.
Hi Peter, I hope you are well. I was merely stating “maybe’s”, if some have fallen away from the Watchtower due finding error in it’s teaching or have lost confidence in it’s understanding then it may be a case of those ones taking a few steps back & axamining & studying the scriptures indepenantly leading to a redefining of their understanding, not just on this subject but maybe others too.
Hope that kind of explained what I was trying to say.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Thanks Daz. I think that studying and re-examining the Bible is a good approach. The fact that you are here shows you are open to hearing what other friends have to say as well.
I think that is best – both independent and interdependent thinking combined. Totally independent thinking or the opposite of totally interdepent thinking both have downsides. If I were Catholic and accepted all the sacraments and traditions without Biblical investigation, I could never find the true message of the Bible. On the other hand, if I only studied by myself and was not willing to hear others, I could never benefit from their insights. Thanks.
Thankyou Peter for your reply, yes I agree. The thing is, I feel that because there are so many interpretations that have been based on each individual religion’s understanding this has added to the confusion with regards to searching & finding “truth”. Being diligent & earnest & with lots of prayer in your quest/search plays a big part in leading you down the right path. Yes there maybe pit-stops along the way & even though along there may be times when what you have percieved & understood may have turned out to be a little off track or a wrong undersatnding this usually helps you learn from the error that you have made. It’s whether you can humble yourself & accept & embrace that you were wrong & turning it into something positive positive because without the error you may not have come to the rightful understanding, does that make sense?
Jehovah God will make known to us the whole truth very soon, He knows we have to live in this world of confusion which has been deliberately set up that way by the father of the lie as the he is control of this current world system (1 John 5:19 – Galatians 5:10 – 1Corinthians 14:33)
I do not rely on men to give me understanding but only God, Christ & the Holy Spirit. Yes we can learn from others but not to the extent where we look upon them as teachers, not unless they have been given that divine authority to teach, there is only one true teacher we should listen to, the Master Christ Jesus (matthew 23:10).
We can reason together on things but all reasoning has to be in complete harmony with the scriptures & must not deviate from them. We must not get overwhelmed by doctrines & teachings that are of men, those that elevate themselves above others as being elite & righteous.
We must be humble in all things, be patient for the day of the Lord will soon be upon us.
All will be revealed in it’s due time, we need to put our whole trust & love in our Father above in Heaven & His Son Jesus Christ & wait on them.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz – Well said. Thanks.
Peter,
Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses read their Bible regularly, and in fact, the Watchtower publications encourages us to read the Bible on a daily basis. You need not be concerned. Even in several studies and surveys, Witnesses are ranked highest when it comes to Bible reading. And Matthew 24:36 is a text we are very familiar with, and understand to mean when the final end comes at Armageddon. Even my 5 year old nephew knows that text by heart and it’s meaning.
I don’t know why those who claim they were Witnesses no longer believe in the invisible presence. I have come across individuals who say they are Ex-Witnesses, many in the 20’s or 30’s, but when we ask them additional questions, it turns out they were never baptized and only studied for a while, an may have at what time agree with some of our teachings. In many cases, they were the teen children of parents that converted to the Witness faith, and since the Witness faith was the last faith they were exposed, some call themselves Ex-Witnesses, or even say they were raised as a Witness. I spoke to one recently who’s parents became Witnesses when she was 15, and she stated she was raised a Witness, but only attended a few meetings, and she probably never had a deep study of the Bible. She left at 18, since she wanted to keep her boyfriend from her former church (I think she was her and her parents attended a Lutheran church). She said she went back to that church for a while, but left it when she found out her boyfriend was fooling around with another girl in her church. She, says, she currently has not interest in joining what she calls a “strict church” like the Witnesses, but “respects” her parents right to worship as they please. I have, on numerous cases, similar cases in which people claim to be Ex-Witnesses or raised as a Witness, of teen children of parents who later converted to true Christianity, but those individuals were never baptized, and it seems, in most cases never had an in-depth study of Bible, so they may not understand the difference between the PRESENCE of Christ (as translated correctly in a few Bible translations), versus his COMING in judgement at Armaggedon. It may just be that they were never actual Witnesses, so that may explain it.
David, This is fascinating information. Can you cite the surveys and studies that rank JWs as highest when it comes to Bible reading? I would like to read those studies.
Did you notice “Wild Olives” comments. How can you justify shunning and separating families over family members who want out of the organization? Do you find this punishment practiced or taught in the New Testament?
Peter,
The US Religious Landscape Survey by PEW, of which at least 2 of were published, state that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have the highest percentage of those who read their Bible outside religious services. Page 49, of the June 2008 release of the survey says “Jehovah’s Witnesses are the group most likely to read Scripture regularly (83% do so at least once a week), followed by Mormons (76%). Scripture reading is also a common practice among members of evangelical and historically black churches (60% of each group read Scripture
at least once a week) as well as among Muslims (43% read Scripture at least once a week).” Witnesses also ranked highest when it came to reading Scriptures to their children, accepting the Bible as the Word of God, belief that God’s exist, etc. The ARDA (The Association of Religion Data Archives), which is somewhat related to PEW and other surveys, also includes the same finding. It includes a comparison search engine which includes a religious practices and the Witnesses always ranked the highest in percent under “Percent that read scripture outside of religious services at last once a week” comparison statistic. (see: http://thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2401&d=2000&d=101&d=1201&d=601).
I have not seen the Wild Olives comments, so I do not know what you are referring to.
Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses do not intend or do not try to break up families. That is never there intent. But as Jesus said in Matthew 10:35 “For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law…” Some who reject the truth will cause division in the family. Though, in most cases, the families of Jehovah’s Witnesses are united. It is only in relatively rare cases that a wayward one causes unwanted division in the family.
David,
You say that, “Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses do not intend or do not try to break up families.” You have sure fooled all of us. Are you saying that if a baptized JW openly expresses disagreement with a Watchtower teaching, that the Elders will permit this and not demand a recant or enforce shunning and disellowship? Wouldn’t you agree that there is no Christian Liberty allowed to have a difference of opinion?
I have always liked the idea of getting visits on our site from devote JWs and of having honest discussions on scripture in the spirit of honesty and brotherly love. Your comments almost make me lose hope. I am deeply saddened at your heartless use of Matt 10 to justify the hateful shunning, disfellowship and even breaking up of families, even if you downplay this as not so or infrequent. Let us read the verses.
Matthew 10:34-36 (NASB)
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father , and a daughter against her mother , and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law ; and a man ‘ s enemies will be the members of his household.”
The sword that divides here is indeed the Truth. (Hebrew 4:12). The Jewish and Gospel Ages overlapped creating a Jewish Harvest of Wheat [Christian Jews] and Chaff [rejected Jewish nation destroyed] – Matt 3:12; Luke 3:17; Mark 4:29.
In this division that resulted from the Truth, it was the Christians who were cast out of synagogues and families. [Luke 21:16; John 16:2; Acts 8:1-3] The Christians were not casting out their unconverted Jewish family members. In the Dark Ages, the Little Flock were among those persecuted by the tyrannical and oppressive Papal system. David – do you get this??? – The real Lord’s people are not the persecutors!
1 Peter 3:10-12 says, “let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; LET HIM SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.”
Ephesians 4:32 says ” But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you.”
Titus 3:2 (AMP) “To slander or abuse or speak evil of no one, to avoid being contentious, to be forbearing (yielding, gentle, and conciliatory), and to show unqualified courtesy toward everybody.”
Luke 6:27-28, 31-33, 35-36 (NASB)
“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.”
David,
I have been watching/reading your comments on this site and have a few questions.
You stated:
“The US Religious Landscape Survey by PEW, of which at least 2 of were published, state that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have the highest percentage of those who read their Bible outside religious services. Page 49, of the June 2008 release of the survey says “Jehovah’s Witnesses are the group most likely to read Scripture regularly (83% do so at least once a week)””
My first question is this. Did the survey even include the Bible Students?
If not, it cannot be taken as totally accurate as it was not a complete sampling of religious groups. You do not mention wether it did or not and I am positive there would be found to be MORE than 83% of them “reading the Bible at least once a week outside of religious services”. MOST do so multiple times a week if not daily.
You stated:
“I have not seen the Wild Olives comments, so I do not know what you are referring to.”
Second question. Are you even reading this site?
You are posting some very long commentary and expecting others to read it without giving others that post here the same curtesy. (Unless you are just “preaching” and don’t care what other have to say.) I have read your posts from start to finish each time along with ALL others that are posted here. Also, I would advise going back and reading the comments of Wild Olive.
My last is not so much a question as it is a comment. You stated.
“It is only in relatively rare cases that a wayward one causes unwanted division in the family.”
It would seem that you have been indoctrinated in the JW organizations ways to believe this. It is the “wayward one” that is actually thinking on their own and not following the “groupthink” of the organization in obeying the GB. Some see the wrongs and act on it. It is the “family” that is CAUSING the division. Do you truly not SEE this?
Sincerely,
Chuck
Coming vs Parousia
I can’t help but to get into this discussion…
I’m 20+ yrs a baptized Witness, 12 yrs Elder (Recently resigned) and 6 yrs MS…
It wasn’t till new understanding of October 2012 Annual meeting, that I started to question doctrine…
The “New Understanding”, changed everything that is used in the reasoning book as well as Insight on the Scriptures to prove the presence of Christ is invisible… And here is why!
Each scripture utilized to prove invisibility of his presence was pushed off to the future… “COMMING ON THE CLOUDS”
The reasoning book and Insight all point to the fact that an airplane can’t be seen if flying in the clouds…
Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man “coming on the clouds” of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and “coming on the clouds” of heaven.”
Mr 13:26 And then they will see the Son of man “coming in the clouds” with great power and glory.
Lu 21:27 And then they will see the Son of man “coming in a cloud” with power and great glory.
Each of these events according to the Watchtower is yet future….
Now consider scriptures in connection with these!
Rev 1:7 Look! He is “coming with the clouds”, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.
Dan 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the “clouds of the heavens”, someone like a “son of man was coming”; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.
Notice his departure compared to his 2nd Advent or coming also known as Presence
Acts 1:9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a “cloud caught him up from their sight”. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”
The Watchtower has now unwittingly pushed his “coming on the clouds of invisibility” to a future event at Armageddon.
A doctrine taught by Russell and those who followed for over 100 years was unwittingly changed and they don’t even recognize it.
You can ask any Witness to prove Christ coming is invisible and they will use scriptures that the Governing Body unwittingly pushed off to a future event and are left with none to prove the Parousia
A CLEAR DEPATURE FROM TRUTH…..
Brettstone, the Insight to the Scripture says this regarding Christ’s presence and Conditions accompanying his presence: “The book of Revelation presents in symbolic expression much information relating to Christ’s presence and his manifestation and revelation. The symbolic picture of the crowned rider on the white horse depicted in Revelation 6:1, 2 corresponds to that of the rider of Revelation 19:11-16, who is the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” Christ Jesus. Revelation chapter 6 shows that when Christ rides forth as conquering King he does not immediately bring about removal of wickedness from the earth, but rather, his ride is accompanied by war that takes “peace away from the earth,” as well as by food scarcity and deadly plague. (Re 6:3-8) This, in turn, parallels features found in Christ’s prophecy at Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21)”
Notice it says “he does not immediately bring about removal of wickedness from the earth” So this is the part of Christ’s coming that is still in the future. And this is how I have always understood it.
Anna,
I have a question for you with regards to Christ taking powers as king? Read Daniel 7:13 and 14
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
Does JESUS receive kingship before or after his “Coming on the Clouds of heaven”?
Jesus quoted Daniel in the Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 accounts several times. Certainly he had this scripture in mind when stating what he said at Matt 24:30! “Coming on the clouds” which the “Slave” now says is future…
So when is it before or after? And please explain in light of Daniel 7:13 and 14 because it clearly indicates it’s after his coming on the clouds that he received kingdom power?
Brettstone – Very interesting. Do you recall how they used to explain “every eye” or “they” “shall SEE Him?”
Personably, I would focus first on other concepts and passages for the Invisible pesence.
1) Jesus now an INVISIBLE spirit being (1 Pet 3:18; 2 Cor 3:17)
2) Days of Christ’s Presence compared to Noah’s presence before the flood, when “they knew not.” (Matt 24:37-39)
3) Presence described as like a thief in the night. (1 Thess 5:2)
4) Presence compared to gradual sunrise not lightening) rising in east and shining west. (Matt 24:27)
5) Jesus said, the world will see me no more.” (John 14:19; Heb 12:14)
Peter-
The expression “every eye shall see him” has always been understood as a discerning factor… In other words his presence would be discerned by the events in connection to his presence.
Peter-
Here is reasoning book..
what sense will ‘every eye see him’? They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present. Also referring to sight that is not physical, John 9:41 reports: “Jesus said to [the Pharisees]: ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, “We see.” Your sin remains.’” (Compare Romans 1:20.) Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will “beat themselves in grief.”
Who are “those who pierced him”? Literally, Roman soldiers did this at the time of Jesus’ execution. But they have long been dead. So this must refer to people who similarly mistreat, or ‘pierce,’ Christ’s true followers during “the last days.”—Matt. 25:40, 45.
Brettstone, It appears that Jesus received the kingship at the same time as coming on the “clouds of heaven” as per Daniel. He was made king at that time when he cleansed the heavens of Satan and his rebels and cast them down to the earth in 1914 as per Revelation. His cleansing of the earth of Satan and his system is in the future as per Matthew, Mark, Luke. Daniel is describing a vision of a period of time, the presence of Christ (and his made king) from 1914 all the way to Armageddon and after. This is all included in Christ’s presence and is obviously not one specific hour (or however many hours or days) occurrence but spans a period of time. For us anyway, as Jehovah’s time is different, to Jehovah it could be just one hour. So it is not his “coming on the clouds” that is in the future, that is not what the slave is saying at all. His “coming on the clouds” started in 1914, is going on now and will culminate at Armageddon (and after) as per Matthew etc. That part is still in the future…….obviously.
David this should be on the end of my last comment.
In order to mention birthday happenings in atiquity and with Jesus there it had to be common practice and not something that would have to be explained.
Eve made expression of the Birth of her sons and was not warned on celebrating, rejoicing at their births. (To be fair however, she thought these would be the deliver and she was that women ) But she rejoiced and God saw fit to mention it but not a prohibition.
Now I am not saying you have to celebrate, just mentioning the rest of the story. Look up Hannukah, Jesus never prohibited that either because it isn’t harmful or important.
The Apostles and early Church Fathers added no further BURDENS than those mentioned and neither will I.
Hello, it’s me again…. Just wanted to say that for the past few weeks I’ve been waiting for the Christmas talk to be given at the KH but not one word has been said. Not even during the special talk that was given by someone from bethel this past weekend. I thought okay, well is it really that important to me when I already know how I feel about it? Not really, so onward to whatever is next. I decided, let me drop in on the FOJW site to see what new things were being discussed, and what to my wondering eyes should appear, but the topic of Christmas is no where but here! Okay so that last line was my attempt at trying to be funny, but seriously, I can’t believe that this is such an ongoing hot topic. Really? I’ve read all the back and forth comments and at the end of the day the only question that came to my mind was, haven’t both sides presented their own point of view on whether or not it is right to celebrate Christmas, enough times already? The term, “it’s like beating a dead horse” seems to be pretty fitting, don’t you think? I mean, clearly each of you who has commented on here is passionate about what you believe, so then who is trying to convince who? If your discussion is geared to helping those on the outside looking in, then based on the biblical scriptures, as well as the non religious history on it’s origin, I believe that each side has presented their readers with more than enough information about this holiday. Isn’t it best to just step back now and allow everyone else to make their own sound decision? In fact, the real bottom line is this… everyone has a choice and a conscience so it’s up to each individual to use their God given free will to chose whether or not to celebrate it. It is also their own choice if they want to meditate and figure out if this holiday festival is acceptable and pleasing to Jehovah, because ultimately isn’t that what matters most? Take care….
Hi QNA, nice to hear from you again. We have over 6,000 in the last 30 days coming to the site since the posting of the article and they all have a voice here. (smile)
In the Christian world and during this time of year most sincere lovers of God turn to Jesus, it is just a fact.
Also since posting on 20 facebook pages there has been passionate discussions going on there also. There are over 400 in some of those x Jw and Jw groups. So I say PRAISE GOD and thanks to Jesus we now have hope. As this season progresses more thoughts will turn to him as terrorism seems to be increasing lately.
Take care of yourself be safe and enjoy your family. Sincerely Jacqueline
QNA – Nice to hear from you. I agree with you that the topic has been discussed enough. However, we try to avoid controlling and preventing comments as much as possible. There is a cost for liberty. If you allow people to speak their mind, they will. If any particular person is relentless, at some point we will tell them to tone it down or even rarely, cut them off altogether if they won’t work with us. Also, our visitors who are tired of this discussion will navigate to other areas of the site and read older information with those comments or listen to audio or watch video. For a more pleasant look at the story of Jesus birth, CLICK HERE.
A very well written article prepared!!..Thank u Br.Peter & Sr.Jacueline. My family dicussed this logic during our “Family Worship” evening.
Dundee, I have presents for all types of family and we will discuss Christ and eat. I will be cooking. But all will have to be done one week before because everybody will be visiting in laws and friends in different cities. I have to get back for the Chicago Convention myself but our family (certain ones) always have a good time during the holiday season as all are off work. I am so glad I don’t have to hide in any way as I have told the whole family and elders that have stopped by that I am not a part of their organization and haven’t been for a long time. I wish them well and do or buy whatever in front of whoomever. Oh, the peace and freedom, it feels good! So I wish you and your family a Blessed Season as most of the Christian world will think of Christ in the following weeks. There will be many services in the many Churches about Christ only and that is so uplifting that most see no problem remembering that to be a DEATH THAT HAD TO BE A BIRTH. They complement each other to the GLORY OF JEHOVAH GOD. So peace on earth and goodwill toward mankind. Agape!
Hi everyone. I must say that all this discussion about Christmas & the “should we£ or “shouldn’t we” seems to be dominating the discussion board, topics on this site.
There is always going to be those that are for it & those that are against it. There is much research you can do with regards to Christmas & it’s origins. It all comes down to your conscience, if you feel it would be offensive to Jehovah God & Christ Jesus then do not partake. I personally see no harm in taking advatage of the holiday season especially if you have children, enjoy good food & have some fun etc, there has always been holidays & festivals which people would take advantage of. If you choose to celebrate Christ’s birth on this day then that is your choice & nobody should judge. I personally celebrate Christ every day, I do not need a particular day to remember him by, the memorial/passover & the Lord’s last evening meal is an important celebration to do in rememberance of Him. I personally would rather celebrate Christ’s birth on the day or month He was actually born but as nobody knows 100% for sure when this was then I refrain from doing it.
What I feel is wrong is the whole Christmas tree & presents surrounding it, it is so commercialized & has become very materialistic, it does go back to pagan roots/rituals.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Daz, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not saying you cannot take advantage of the holiday season. Not at all. Most people are off work, and everything shuts down. You cannot help but be affected by the calm atmosphere of this time, especially when there is snow on the ground, twinkling lights, the smell of pine trees and roasted chestnuts filling the air. All very pretty. Families are out and about taking a walk after lunch, children are playing in the snow. That is what we do in Europe anyway. Then you come home and sit by the fire after dinner, drinking hot chocolate, eating cookies fresh out of the oven, watching old movies and playing games, why should anything be wrong with any of that? Jehovah’s Witnesses are not celebrating Christmas by doing these things.
Hi Anna, hope you are well. You must of misunderstood my post, I was not referring that Jehovah’s Witnesses did not take advantage of the holidays, if you read again, I am saying I don’t see anything wrong in taking advantage of the holidays, my post was not directed at anyone in particular, it was my opinion. Please read again & hopefully you will see what I am saying.
Warm & loving regards,
Daz
Hi Daz, it’s OK, I think I did understand your post, I was just making sure, that’s all.
All the best, V
Daz, I was so pleased to see a few of my relatives bought and gave gifts to their grandchildren over the weekend. It is a step to bringing our family back together. They are making decisions for themselves. They observed my life has gotten better not horrible as the governingbody writes through the watchtower. They feared divine retribution but I have tried to explain they are living their life according to the whims of seven non family rich billionaire men that depend on controlling them to maintain their bully style prestige. It takes time but I think they are searching the internet and waking up. Our mother did the best she could but this is worship of men and an organization set up on earth now in place of Jesus.